Legion! - Great concept, Horrible execution.. What can

[saintjimmyz]

The specific example of Nipton kinda refutes the notion that the Legion's cruelty is dispassionate. Sure, wipe out a profligate sinkhole of a town - bit harsh, but perhaps a justifiable move considering their worldview. But the whole business about the lottery reeks of sadism.

 

You make a good point that it's perhaps more complex than good vs. evil... but the harshness of their methods aside the Legion are still extremely sexist and practice slavery - not the relatively benign slavery as understood by ancient Greeks/Romans but the barbaric Atlantic model.

 

The lottery is not that simple IMO. Sure, on the surface is a horrible idea, but remember the conversation you have with Vulpes outside the town hall. They had an entire TOWN full of people, including a fair few NCR troopers and powder gangers, and they just stood and watched a relative handful of Legion soldiers kill them one by one, as the people were so selfish that they were willing for every other person to die, one by one, if they just had a slim chance of survival. The lottery demonstrates the depravity and worthlessness of the town, and is almost justification for what happened. (note that I said almost; nothing justifies crucifiction or maiming).

 

Personally, I dont find the 'sexism' of the Legion to be a major flaw. First off, their attitudes resemble those of the human race, apart from the western world in the last two hundred years. Its almost to be expected that rural tribesmen would fall back to such an attitude. What about in Zion, the tribes there still have a male dominated society, even if the tribes do have female warriors and hunters. No one makes a fuss about them. Sure, we hear lots about Legion soldiers raping the female slaves; but the male slaves would be beaten too, and forced to do backbreaking manual labour, as well as forced into the arena to kill and main fellow slaves. The life of a slave is awful; true for men and women, that is undeniable.

 

Caesars vision has always been to create a society free of the sins of the Old World; and while atrocities have been committed to atain this, Legion territory is almost a safe haven for friends of the Legion. There are no raiders or bandits who would kill, main and rape travellers. There are no gangs of Fiends or other druggies who would kill, main and rape 'ordinary' people. The Legion has done great things in the East, and created an arguably superior society to that of the NCR, full of corruption, 'sin', bandits, addicts, whores, and a whole host of petty criminals. The only arguement IMO is whether the cost has been too great, and whether the ends have justified the means. And despite the length of this post, I dont think that the ends justified the means in this case, the cost is too high. Does that make the Legion evil though, or just trying to attain the unattainable?

[Grandchamp1989]

The leaders doing acts of evil while the majority of the lower people(voters) disagree with what they are doing is proof that the 2 headed bear is a flag of tyranny.

 

"They try to please their citizins with hollow privileges like legalized gambling, alcohol and drugs. This only creates a number of other problems like seen with the junkie trooper in Forlorn Hope and Freeside."

 

Drugs are not legal in the NCR. However this just created a wide black market(see my theory on Jet and the NCR and the great khan quests) because the NCR wont take the time to crack down on crime and most of those drug dealers have gotten to the point where they can just bribe everything away.

 

NCR is a great example of how bad Capitalism and Democracy can get however this isnt to bash democracy or capitalism as all other options arent that good either(Socialism and communism are a nightmare.) and i sense a revolution.

 

"I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. I'd instead argue that the fact that no one in the Legion seems to have vices other than arrogance and bloodlust indicates a much less tolerant society, something that's also confirmed by Caesar himself. Is a society that actively roots out what it considers to be weak and unworthy really a society worthy of admiration? Speaking for myself that's a solid 'no'."

 

Again with thinking the Legion are violent and mindless raiders. Vices. Are. Bad. Drugs and alcohol are bad they dont just change your stats they have terrible side effects long term and short term. The Legion's views against drugs an alcohol should be instantly seen as a good thing. Also people dont require having a vice not everything has to be addicted to something psychological or otherwise. Please be aware that in modern time we are in a society flooded with excessive entertainment as seen by the fact we are even talking to each other about this right now.

 

Regarding Nipton:

Well if your able to decipher the frumentarii's cryptic speech impediment youll see why the lottery is...well brilliant and not actually sadistic at all. The Legion were out numbered at any time the tons folk and the powder gangers could have overrun the Legion troops and stopped they lottery stopped the killing as people were dragged away to die. But they didnt it was designed to show how much of a fragmented community-less and cowardice the people of Nipton were. They could have stopped it but because they only cared for themselves they didnt. Also its incredibly effective psychological warfare which was again the whole point of the attack as Nipton is pretty far away.

 

 

Now about adding more Legion content:

 

Ulysses was originally the only Legion oriented companion and was supposed to reinforce the faction system but they have to strip him out so this could explain some lacking of Legion...

 

As for a new Legion companion perhaps Dialogue writing would be best left to someone somewhat Legion siding. Like me? Or perhaps Marharth if he didnt speak in one liners... I say this because im getting the feeling the point of more Legion content is an attempt to show the Legion's good side.

 

I think if we do a Legion companion it would have to be a new character.

 

*Story writing system engaging!!!*

 

*Breaks out Van Buran material!"

 

Perhaps we should all attempt to locate a modder with the skills necessary to create such a companion. Our meaningless bickering of who is better may actually yield some fruit.

 

If you're up to the challenge and got an idea for a proper Legion Companion with companion wheel, voiced dialogue, side quests etc.. I know the community would be very grateful. I would atleast. Not saying it had to be extreme like Willow - which overshadowed the vanilla companions in how great it was. Just something respectable to a suffering legion :) Oh, and make sure he don't like you if you're vilified by Legion - Just like Boone, except the other way around ;)

 

You have my support in this!

[Nihilisaurus]

Legion territory is almost a safe haven for friends of the Legion. There are no raiders or bandits who would kill, main and rape travellers. There are no gangs of Fiends or other druggies who would kill, main and rape 'ordinary' people. The Legion has done great things in the East, and created an arguably superior society to that of the NCR, full of corruption, 'sin', bandits, addicts, whores, and a whole host of petty criminals.

Actually, NCR territory's far safer than it was in Fo2 (as far as we can tell). It's not perfect, but the Vipers, Jackals and Khans are in Nevada because NCR stamped down on them hard in California. They may be growing in strength again a little now NCR's focused on the legion threat, but they're much diminished from their old selves - as demonstrated by the fact they're operating in the lawless frontier instead of the wealthier NCR heartland.

[ModelV]

Well currently im on hold waiting for the community to give me someone who can make NPCs and quests for my own mod. We would need someone else capable of implementing the character or perhaps someone who could teach me how to do this. I hate searching for tutorials but if someone where to point me in the right direction that would help a lot.

 

@Lt Albrecht

 

There is confirmation of raiders in NCR heartland but the thing is the Legion keeps raiders clear of more then just their heartland.

Edited October 14, 2011 by ModelV

[minngarm]

http://www.newvegasnexus.com/downloads/file.php?id=38059&navtag=file/images.php?id=38059&tab=3

 

Pritty much the only companion system mod out now that the other one went without support before the first DLC. Theres a tutorial with it, I've been using it for some companions I've been working on its not to complicated to catch onto, but learning it will take a bit.

[ModelV]

That eh...that isnt going to work. Creating such a companion will not be as simple as popping the character into a pre-made companion system. And creating the companion will the proper AI and commands isnt really the hard part its creating dialogue. Edited October 14, 2011 by ModelV

[minngarm]

Its a base system to start with that you can use to make sure your companion functions gameplay wise as it should before adding additional quests and background chatter.

[Tranquillus]

"I'm not convinced that's a bad thing. I'd instead argue that the fact that no one in the Legion seems to have vices other than arrogance and bloodlust indicates a much less tolerant society, something that's also confirmed by Caesar himself. Is a society that actively roots out what it considers to be weak and unworthy really a society worthy of admiration? Speaking for myself that's a solid 'no'."

 

Again with thinking the Legion are violent and mindless raiders. Vices. Are. Bad. Drugs and alcohol are bad they dont just change your stats they have terrible side effects long term and short term. The Legion's views against drugs an alcohol should be instantly seen as a good thing. Also people dont require having a vice not everything has to be addicted to something psychological or otherwise. Please be aware that in modern time we are in a society flooded with excessive entertainment as seen by the fact we are even talking to each other about this right now.

1. Yeah, vice is bad. However a society without vice is worse, because a society where everyone is perfect is almost by definition an intolerant one.

 

2. To be clear, drug and alcohol addiction are vices. Drug and alcohol consumption are not.

 

3. By 'vices' I also meant other things, like laziness, or being overly talky. That kind of thing.

 

4. I think you're confusing two of my distinct arguments: the first is that an intolerant society is worse than a vice-ridden one. The other argument is that the Legion are not interesting as a faction and as characters because they don't have vices and everybody has the same worldview.

 

Regarding Nipton:

Well if your able to decipher the frumentarii's cryptic speech impediment youll see why the lottery is...well brilliant and not actually sadistic at all. The Legion were out numbered at any time the tons folk and the powder gangers could have overrun the Legion troops and stopped they lottery stopped the killing as people were dragged away to die. But they didnt it was designed to show how much of a fragmented community-less and cowardice the people of Nipton were. They could have stopped it but because they only cared for themselves they didnt. Also its incredibly effective psychological warfare which was again the whole point of the attack as Nipton is pretty far away.

Interesting take... I had not thought of it this way. Though Nipton is a pretty small place. And if I remember correctly the NCR troops there had been disarmed beforehand.

 

Personally, I dont find the 'sexism' of the Legion to be a major flaw. First off, their attitudes resemble those of the human race, apart from the western world in the last two hundred years. Its almost to be expected that rural tribesmen would fall back to such an attitude.

Oh yes, I don't dispute that their tribal origins probably contributed to the sexism. Caesar himself isn't tribal though. He was with the Followers, who as I understand it are from California. What's his excuse?

 

Couldnt use that land even if its accessable, wouldnt fit in. Legion townships are further back east. Were in/on the border of NCR territory we have to shift right to get into the Legion.

Well, the border is the Colorado, isn't it? Doesn't have to be a big town, a small town or even just some camps with named NPCs would be nice. The NCR side of the river is chock full of military camps and bases.

 

 

I've been trying to pin down why I instinctively thought of the Legion as 'evil'. I'm majoring in classical history so I certainly don't usually place moral judgements on acts of war. I've been playing a lot in Legion lands today, and here's a thought: it's the atmosphere. Replace the Legion background music, either with the normal wilderness music, or something generically military-themed. The current Legion music is.... for lack of a better word, demonic. Ominous pipes, eerie ghoulish noises... this would have been right at home in Mordor or some Daedric realm. And remove the red filter in Legion lands. It's hard not to think of hell when everywhere you look is tinted blood red.

Edited October 14, 2011 by Tranquillus

[Ruadhan2300]

some very interesting discussion here..

I'd have to take the stance that the legion's Ends do not justify their means. they've created a safe and secure environment for legion citizens, that's a step forward. but they've chosen to use frankly barbaric methodologies. in effect taken the easy option. that's a step backwards for me.

Then there's the sexism and cult of personality. that's a couple more steps backward.

 

that said, I would love to see a mod to really flesh out the legion, either with the existing areas, or by creating a new one.

 

I recently got a handle on how the companion stuff actually works, so I'd be quite capable of building one for such a mod if anyone is actually interested in working on this...I have a lot of stuff on my plate though, so I have little impetus to do this independantly...

 

if someone were to write a complete dialog tree for a legion companion, I could quite easily implement that. my biggest problem is in coming up with good dialog for characters (not in the technical side of things)

 

 

as an alternative. if someone else is working on some of this and needs some technical advice, I'd be very willing to lend a hand.

[minngarm]

Dialog and storyline are easy enough (for me anyways and im sure others.) the hard part is deciding what general type of companion, and where. Are we looking at doing it in pre existing FNV? Or going back past the front line to look at a Legion settlement so we can not only get a companion but more depth to the Legion itself. While the colorado is the border, keep in mind both factions were advancing to it and not already there, only House and the various settlements were already there. So anything near the river would be recently conquered by legion, and thus not likely to garner much support beyond the not getting nailed to a cross for speaking out of turn part.

 

So lets nail down some facts first.

 

When were the Legion founded?

 

Where (on a map) were they founded?

 

How far do we know their territory is, not speculation, but how far N S E W have we heared of locations in game that they have conquered. Also any relevant time frames to when they expanded to each would help as well.

 

We already know they can not be more than one generation old, and from the look of Graham (pre-burn) no more than 30 years old most likely (thats at most.)

 

Also names of tribes/clans/factions taken under the Legion would help expand our options for the characters background.

 

Edit: looking up the legion capital flagstaff and its routes to the Dam, I found a nice little area called Ash Fork that could/should I think be in legion territory long enough for a generation to grow up. If so it would make a great background for a Legion character, or area to make behind Legion lines to get a feel of it all.

 

http://maps.google.com/maps?q=arizona+flagstaff&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hq=&hnear=0x872d8ef7da2e2631:0x8e1f3ca1cedbb300,Flagstaff,+AZ&gl=us&ei=Oc6YTpWsMISCtgfm6aThAw&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&ct=image&resnum=2&ved=0CFAQ8gEwAQ

Edited October 15, 2011 by minngarm