Future of EU...

[JimboUK]

and yes, most of the other EU members are letting Germany down big time in this, it's almost like we're stemming it all alone here, but we're actually still doing remarkably fine with all this,

 

Letting Germany down? your government invited them, why should others countries have to deal with it?

[DrakeTheDragon]

 

and yes, most of the other EU members are letting Germany down big time in this, it's almost like we're stemming it all alone here, but we're actually still doing remarkably fine with all this,

 

Letting Germany down? your government invited them, why should others countries have to deal with it?

 

 

 

Well, for one they didn't invite them. They may be heading a part of the EU decisive council and as such mostly directing what the EU decides on, but it isn't like they could actually "force" the others to agree with them on anything.

 

But for two, what I'm talking about is it was a majority decision, the European Union in its entirety decided on how things should be done, how many refugees which member country would be taking, and how every country's contribution would best be coordinated. Neither was Germany the driving force in all this, nor are we having any horses in this race. It's just, apparently, we're now the only country doing their part as was decided on, the others... just don't. And that of course forces us to actually do double, if not thrice, as much as was decided on would be our part, so... yeah, I call that "letting us down". Now wouldn't you?

 

I mean, if US congress decided, due to a massive drought, that every state would have to cut down on water consumption each about its own certain amount, specifically calculated and agreed on so it's as much as they can take but still not too much, and once everything got written down on paper and signed by all congress delegates, suddenly Nevada would be the only one doing their part, the others not even remotely coming close to what was agreed on, and Nevada even having to cut its water consumption down to 10% instead of the 50% it was asked for to make up for the others.

 

Is it really fair to blame Nevada for their own fault, only because they said "we're in the desert mostly and won't need that much water for plants or plantations, so we support this idea 100%"? And are the others not letting them down, by not doing their part, and actually breaking the contract they signed (just like the rest of the EU does right now)? They all agreed! They signed contracts! Now they're not taking part in their own agreements and only we follow plan. They "are" letting us down, by breaking the contracts they signed.

 

And coming back to the "you invited them" flaw in argumentation, all our politicians, or better yet chancellor Merkel, did was seeing the impossibility in the idea to just "keep them out" (we're on broad land, we can't just raise walls or fences the entire borderlines long, and we most definitely have neither the manpower nor the money to keep them even remotely guarded), and instead went along with the second best approach, to let them in and take them up, but to "control" how it's done and where. They said we can't "stop" them, so instead we control where they go and take care they'll be "equally distributed" (not every country takes the same amount equally but every country takes as much as is viable and does its part in it equal) across Europe so every member country does its part and isn't forced to take too much.

 

The plan was great. It would've worked wonders, and still would... if just the others hadn't bailed and stood up to their promises and contracts. The EU must get their act together and start acting where their mouths are, not just agreeing on something and publicly celebrating having come to an agreement, and then at the end none but one doing their part. This is what's complicating things in this, not Germany's willingness to do their part, as what seems to be the sole contributor to what was originally planned and agreed on by all.

 

Your little island has it easy, surrounded by water on every side and only a select few ways to get across. But Europe's a continent, and there's not even enough concrete or wire to build a wall or raise a fence all around it. That's illusional.

 

edit: And for the records, we're still doing remarkably fine, doing thrice the amount of what was decided on. You can bet on, if the others would also be doing their part as planned, the whole thing wouldn't be an issue at all anymore in a heartbeat. It isn't for us now, so why should it for the others then?

[JimboUK]

Last year she said any Syrian who reaches Germany can claim asylum, that was the invite and that was an act of monumental stupidity, she said come and was shocked when they did. What she did was equivalent of advertising a party on Facebook, having a 1,000 people turn up and then start complaining when the neighbours lock their doors. I still see no reason why other countries should take these people in, I don't care the European Union rules say, I want to know why people who have no say in the election of the German government or no power to remove it have to live with the consequences of a German government decision, it's not very fair is it? and certainly isn't democratic.

 

Had Merkel made an effort to keep those people out and failed then I can understand asking for help but she welcomed them with open arms. I can understand other countries not wanting them, hordes of fighting age men from an alien culture is the last thing you want coming across your border.

 

You don't have to put up fences to deter them, don't give them welfare, don't give any more than emergency healthcare, don't feed them, don't clothe them. don't house them, don't give them work permits, most are economic migrants, take away the reason to come and they won't come.

 

What European countries should have done is go to the refugee camps and bring out the most needy after vetting them, not open the doors to Syria and Iraq, two countries crawling with ISIS barbarians, it's lunacy.

[Signette]

Firstly, I want to say that I, for one, DO NOT present any facts here, can't speak for others. Purpose of me creating this thread was to FIND OUT how things are in reality, and I just share my thoughts and observations. Now on topic:

 

It's really curious and surprising of what I see here. Some international media sources state current EU condition as growing catastrophe, when some EU political analytics say things completely opposite, things like DrakeTheDragon says, for example.

 

I remember visiting Germany like... 5 years ago IIRC, it was Frankfurt am Main and Weisbaden. I honestly have absolutely no problems with ANY nationality and race in the world, but what I've seen there was a bit unexpected. In the streets I met much fewer native people than asian or african origin, and they really didn't look like tourists to me. Another rather shoking observation I had when I was leaving for airport. There was exit/enter corridor, very wide, I'd say about 8 grown men can stand in line easily, so I was standing there for about 30 minutes or so, waiting for friends. And all this time, flow of people, who obviously were like 90% immigrants, didn't stop for a second. To remind you, it was about 5 years ago, relaxed immigration policy wasn't a thing back then.

 

Another thing, I haven't been in France myself, but all my friends who've been there say the same thing, like they barely see any natives in the streets, and those were big cities like Paris, Marsielle and etc.

 

Again on Media, there are reports of rape scandal in Germany, some terroristic attacks in Paris and Brussel. All involve terrorists coming from the Middle East. Then there are reports that you can buy drugs basically on the main square in Paris and police doesn't get involved, plus there's info that police cannot go into most neighborhoods where immigrants live. Reports of villages and settlements which natives leave because immigrants settle there and acting very aggressively. Some video footage of ruckus in the streets and so on.

What is lie and what isn't would be very helpful to know.

 

It is obvious that Germany and other EU countries who accept newcomers have to support them, and money don't grow on trees. Logically thinking it gets pulled from taxes, so generally speaking, every working european adult supports some number of immigrants. More immigrants come, more strain is on taxes, more strain on working citizens. No one is saying Europe is on fire or something, but question is, how much can EU take at this rate? Because wave of immigrants won't suspend on it's own and will only increase.

[sunshinenbrick]

It's a global issue of people wanting an ever higher and higher standard of living with rights to things. This is put on 'opposition' to people who are escaping war, persecution, climate change and poverty who are now very attractive to the exploding financial bubbles of the 'West'.

Assimilation only works if people are aware of its presence and agree with its purpose. Between the UK EU referendum and US election we will see what the results are of this economic experiment.

[Aurielius]

It's a global issue of people wanting an ever higher and higher standard of living with rights to things. This is put on opposition by people who are escaping war, persecution, climate change and poverty who are very attractive to the exploding financial bubbles of the 'West'.

 

Assimilation only works if people are aware of its presence and agree with its purpose. Between the UK EU referendum and US election we will see what the results are of this economic experiment.

I'm assuming(always dangerous) that you mean when incoming immigrants agree with the concept of assimilation. Even in times when that worked there was a tendency to hold on to some of the customs of their old country. The difference currently is that the immigrants want to change their host country to be more like the countries they fled. From a US perspective we are all descendants of assimilated immigrants..or at least that is the way it used to be. Assimilation requires that everyone buys into the concept in order for it to work.

I grew up in the UK and visit yearly to see my family, the composition of London neighborhoods has changed visibly in the last two decades. The current mayor wants to change sexy tube adverts because it offends Muslim sensibilities. I always thought that when you are drowning and someone offers to let you in the life raft that gratitude was the appropriate emotion not anger over the beliefs and customs of your rescuers.

 

I think that the Brexit vote if it prevails will irrecoverably change the EU. Without the UK's economic input Germany might have to shoulder the burden of it's own policies. I have canvassed all my old friends (ranging from farmers to judges) in the UK , not one was in favor of staying. I'm sure that Germany and the rest of the EU will not immediately fall apart but they will be missing one leg of the economic triad. How that plays out only time will tell.

[Piho]

To HeyYou:

 

1. Gun control was an example of how some ppl spam internet (yes mirocu im looking at you) with lies about EU, im prohibited of using examples of how this happens every few years and curiously EU is suffering from problems that in reallity only worry ppl fromn USA every time?

 

2. Natives losing their lands and even a war against immigrants (LOL) was implied clearly, im not going to quote cause isnt my fault if you are too lazy to read or fail to understand what you read....

 

3. Not my language (you gonna punish me?) but i understand perfectly the stupid catastrophic augurs of some ppl saying how EU is being destroyed by something that in reality is happening in USA or perhaps not happening and just a worry. If english is your language and you fail to understand well then you...

 

4. No matter how high the influx of immigrats is, i already presented numbers to counter all the BS about EU natives becoming a minority and mathematics dont lie deal with it. You just chose to ignore numbers because you actually know no facts about this matter.

 

 

PS You guys actually damaging the cause you trying to defend, funny uh?

 

 

Edited June 17, 2016 by Piho

[sunshinenbrick]

 

It's a global issue of people wanting an ever higher and higher standard of living with rights to things. This is put on opposition by people who are escaping war, persecution, climate change and poverty who are very attractive to the exploding financial bubbles of the 'West'.

 

Assimilation only works if people are aware of its presence and agree with its purpose. Between the UK EU referendum and US election we will see what the results are of this economic experiment.

I'm assuming(always dangerous) that you mean when incoming immigrants agree with the concept of assimilation. Even in times when that worked there was a tendency to hold on to some of the customs of their old country. The difference currently is that the immigrants want to change their host country to be more like the countries they fled. from a US perspective we are all descendants of assimilated immigrants..or at least that is the way it used to be. Assimilation requires that everyone buys into the concept.

I grew up in the UK and visit yearly to see my family, the composition of London neighborhoods has changed visibly in the last two decades. The current mayor wants to change sexy tube adverts because it offends Muslim sensibilities. I always thought that when you are drowning and someone offers to let you in the life raft that gratitude was the appropriate emotion not anger over the beliefs and customs of your rescuers.

 

 

Something along those lines, I think, yes. But it is important to point out and identify that we all behave primarily similar and that the vast majority of us are all in the same 'boat' (pardoning the distasteful metaphoric pun, but you started it :tongue:). Life rafts come in many shapes and sizes...

 

It's the perfect setup, eyes wide open.

[HeyYou]

 

To HeyYou:

 

1. Gun control was an example of how some ppl spam internet (yes mirocu im looking at you) with lies about EU, im prohibited of using examples of how this happens every few years and curiously EU is suffering from problems that in reallity only worry ppl fromn USA every time?

 

2. Natives losing their lands and even a war against immigrants (LOL) was implied clearly, im not going to quote cause isnt my fault if you are too lazy to read or fail to understand what you read....

 

3. Not my language (you gonna punish me?) but i understand perfectly the stupid catastrophic augurs of some ppl saying how EU is being destroyed by something that in reality is happening in USA or perhaps not happening and just a worry. If english is your language and you fail to understand well then you...

 

4. No matter how high the influx of immigrats is, i already presented numbers to counter all the BS about EU natives becoming a minority and mathematics dont lie deal with it. You just chose to ignore numbers because you actually know no facts about this matter.

 

 

PS You guys actually damaging the cause you trying to defend, funny uh?

 

 

 

Wasn't aware I was defending any 'cause'.......

 

The numbers: Natives don't need to be a minority, for the immigrants to gain influence. Your statistics are meaningless. London is a prime example.

 

I see folks typing blocks' o' text, and I see folks posting videos. Two different ways of communicating the message they desire. Not spam.

 

Native language: Nope. Not going to punish you, no method to do so, and no desire either. If I COULD do something, it would be adjusting your arrogant/condescending attitude. :)

[Piho]

 

 

To HeyYou:

 

1. Gun control was an example of how some ppl spam internet (yes mirocu im looking at you) with lies about EU, im prohibited of using examples of how this happens every few years and curiously EU is suffering from problems that in reallity only worry ppl fromn USA every time?

 

2. Natives losing their lands and even a war against immigrants (LOL) was implied clearly, im not going to quote cause isnt my fault if you are too lazy to read or fail to understand what you read....

 

3. Not my language (you gonna punish me?) but i understand perfectly the stupid catastrophic augurs of some ppl saying how EU is being destroyed by something that in reality is happening in USA or perhaps not happening and just a worry. If english is your language and you fail to understand well then you...

 

4. No matter how high the influx of immigrats is, i already presented numbers to counter all the BS about EU natives becoming a minority and mathematics dont lie deal with it. You just chose to ignore numbers because you actually know no facts about this matter.

 

 

PS You guys actually damaging the cause you trying to defend, funny uh?

 

 

 

Wasn't aware I was defending any 'cause'.......

 

The numbers: Natives don't need to be a minority, for the immigrants to gain influence. Your statistics are meaningless. London is a prime example.

 

I see folks typing blocks' o' text, and I see folks posting videos. Two different ways of communicating the message they desire. Not spam.

 

Native language: Nope. Not going to punish you, no method to do so, and no desire either. If I COULD do something, it would be adjusting your arrogant/condescending attitude. :smile:

 

 

You can easily adjust my arrogant/condescending attitude by not throwing your pamphlets on my garden but other than that you can only whine.

 

The title of this topic is "Future of EU..." and playing by EU rules noone can throw their pamphlets on my garden, and now please someone take this literally so i can laugh to dead....