The Great Imperial vs. Stormcloak Debate

[undedavenger]

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20120125080325/elderscrolls/images/thumb/c/c7/Tamriel_4E.png/609px-Tamriel_4E.png

 

Because they're NORDS. The toughest SOBs in Tamriel! I honestly go with the Sotrmcloak side because extremist governments that ban religious practices are the worst, followed only by a weak government that runs from everybody. The empire is already dead. Hammerfell, Black Marsh, and of course the mer-centric provinces are gone. High Rock is divided, and Morrowind is a wasteland. The Empire is dead. If there is to be a new empire, it will come from Skyrim. And hopefully the nords will get rid of Ulfric and his racist tendencies.

 

Besides, I like to believe that after the Emperor bites it in this one, and the Alduin threat is over, the only known person with Dragonblood will make their way to the White Gold tower and become a leader.

[StormHammer81]

@undedavenger ~ I had actually made that first post by accident but since you asked nicely :)

 

@Everyone ~ Ok, I've changed my vote to Stormcloak after reading this from a conversation I was having with another Nexus Member, Gabryal. So he wrote the below post and I've got to say he has a point. I defended the Empire on the other forum and this time I think I should give some love to the Stormcloaks, for there have been several times in life where I've had to go all Stormcloak on someone. So anyways, without further ado here it is, enjoy!

 

 

By Gabryal:

 

Part1:

 

This is where I think we disagree a little on our perspective paths because I was an Empire lover once as well, I've played TES since Arena, and every single Hero, of every single game, got it in the shorts ( until this one ) at the end, but they all had one thing in common. They were fighting for the -Empire-. Gradually though, I read through the history since Oblivion. The Age of the Septim Dynasty is over ( Hail Septim, those who are about to die Salute YOU! ) and I started reading more and the more I read the more disgusted I got. The rise of the Mede dynasty would make Uriel and Tiber roll over in their graves. The abandonment of Valenwood.. they'd have slit their own throats first. Allowing Elswyr to Secede? Never, especially under threat from the Thalmor.. and then there is the Thalmor. The Septims would have -never- allowed them to rise to power and just " sit " for 70 years and not pay attention. Imperial spies would know what their grand high cock-sucker had farted out after breakfast in their day, especially after Morrowind. They'd have reassured the Khajit's, Imperial Astronomers and Magicians would have worked tirelessly night and day to reassure them.

 

Morrowind left to fend for itself.. after what happened to it? Never. Under the Septim's engineer's and magicians would have been hard at work rebuilding cities, and finding common ground with the remaining Dunmer houses, restoring power where it belonged ( albeit with that little sly bit of Imperial Diplomacy that leaves the Empire more stable? ).

 

Let the Blackmarsh slip away? Maybe, the Imperials never really wanted it. However they would have at least sent an army to the edge of the jungle, lured the Argonians out and crushed them at least once for the message ( likely bringing along a Dunmer Army, newly supplied with weapons and armor forged using Imperial Money they had borrowed ) to join in, just to send the message to the Dunmer that, yes the Empire is still your friend, yes we'll stand side by side with you, and no we won't let anyone f*** with you.

 

And finally... sign any treaty anywhere that gave away land to another country? The Septim's as you know would rather see the Empire bashed to pieces than surrender one citizen under threat. The Mede's attempted to rule like Septim's but they were cowards in the end. The Empire survived because -Nord- and -Redguard- Legions came to save it, and what are the three things the Mede's do to the men who saved his royal ass? He gives away half the Redguard's country, ignores all the contributions of the Nord legions as well as the Nord Militia ( Ulfric's Stormcloaks ) by allowing the Thalmor to police them, and ordering the disbanding of the Stormcloaks, the very Militia that kept Skyrim in one piece after the Legions were gone. Then he does the -ultimate- dishonor in my opinion. He denies Talos worship. Now if Talos was just a Nord Man-God, I'd get it, give a little.

 

However Talos isn't just a Nord Man-God. he is TIBER SEPTIM. The man who built the f***ing Empire. Can you imagine anywhere, ever, under any circumstance where the Romans would have gone " All right you win, we'll un-deify Julius Caesar "? They'd rather Rome burn, we all know there isn't much the Romans -wouldn't- do but to deny Caesar is to deny Rome. Likewise in my mind, to Deny Talos is to Deny the Empire.

 

To top it all off the Redguards told the Empire to kiss off, kept fighting for 5 more years and guess what? They -won-. That's the kicker, not only did the Empire lose once of it's best recruiting grounds for it's legions, those same men who could have fought for the Empire if the Emperor had decided to tell the Thalmor to take the White-Gold Concordant and shove it up his royal elven a**hole, fought for their country and won.

 

Now Ulfric knows he's being used as a hammer against the Empire, but he's also doing what he's always done so very well. Using his enemies hubris against them. He's not the Thalmor's puppet, though he's letting them think it.. for now. He does make comments about how much he hates it, but that hate in him is a burning ember waiting to explode into a fireball.

 

I think what sums it up is a conversation between him and Galmor Stone-Fist before the Siege of Whiterun:

 

Ulfric: "Things hinge on Whiterun. If we can take the city without bloodshed all the better. But if not..."

Galmar: "The people are behind you."

Ulfric: "Many I fear still need convincing."

Galmar: "Then let them die with their false kings."

Ulfric: "We've been soldiers a long time. We know the price of freedom. The people are still weighing things in their hearts."

Galmar: "What's left of Skyrim to wager?"

Ulfric: "They have families to think of."

Galmar: "How many of their sons and daughters follow your banner? We are their families."

Ulfric: "Well put, friend. Tell me, Galmar, why do you fight for me?"

Galmar: "I'd follow you into the depths of Oblivion, you know that."

Ulfric: "Yes, but why do you fight? If not for me, what then?"

Galmar: "I'll die before elves dictate the fates of men. Are we not one in this?"

Ulfric: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children, who's names I heard whispered in their last breaths. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire too weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves! I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight... because I must."

Galmar: "Your words give voice to what we all feel, Ulfric. And that's why you will be High King. But the day words are enough, will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."

Ulfric: "I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn."

Galmar: "Aye. But in the meantime, we have a war to plan."

 

It's two parts in that that really touched me and made me think, the part that begins with " I fight for the men I've held in my arms.. " and " I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn " after Galmar talks about the day when soldiers are no longer needed.

 

Ulfric is many things, but one thing he isn't is a person who is without passion. The Nords are a people of Warrior-Poets and he embodies that in many ways. He means it when he talks about the men who fought with him. He's fought many enemies, and the Thalmor are one of them, today his enemy is the Empire. As High Kind his Enemy will be the Thalmor. I think he looks at Hammerfell and thinks " If the Reguards can do it, so can we. Our races saved the Empire, not the Imperials, and individually they defeated the Thalmor, and so can we. We just need to be -led- by men who aren't cowards. " If a Septim worthy of the name were on the throne, there would be no rebellion in Skyrim. Ulfric is merely providing what is needed, a leader in a vacuum.

 

I think he is a weary man as well " The Fate of the Empire " does not weigh on his mind, the past is over for him, and the future is what matters. He sees clearly that the Empire is no more, that little beyond Cyrodil exists of it any longer, and while the Empire grows weaker the Thalmor grow stronger and yet there is no reason for that. He believes that all that is needed is action. He I believe respects the Redguards for their courage and tenacity and for showing that not only can the Thalmor be beaten, that most of their " power " is puffed up. His concern is now for Skyrim, and a powerful Skyrim. Perhaps he sees a day where a Hammerfell-Skyrim Alliance can land upon the shores of the Sommerset Isles and burn Alinor to the ground as they did to the Imperial City. Maybe he sees a day where the Armies of Skyrim can lend aid to the anti-Corovan forces in Valenwood and throw the Thalmor power off the Bosmer.

 

Perhaps he sees a day when Skyrim can send aid to Morrowind, where Skyrim can trade openly with Elsywher, where the Thalmor holds in High Rock are destroyed. He perhaps thinks " Why Not? " The Imperial Navy is mostly Nords and Redguards anyway. Maybe he sees a day when the Thalmor are crushed in a way from which they'll never recover. I think that's the day he ultimately dreams of, as he said, the day when he can " retire from this world ".

 

I do know what he doesn't think, and I've come to agree with him. All those things I just mentioned, will -never- happen with the ghost of an Empire holding it's provinces back in order to save itself. Nords and Redguards saved Cyrodil at the cost of their own lands and people ( Hammerfell lost most it's best ports, and when the legions left, were reduced to hit and run tactics and pulling Thalmor Armies into the Deep deserts to be cut apart, the Nords had to rely on Ulfric's Stormcloaks ) and look at the thanks they got.

 

Cyrodil, imho, has lost it's right to have any race bleed for it again. The one's who saved it are the one's it turned it's back on. The Mede's will fall ( *spoiler alert* have actually fallen in some of my games.. ) anyway, and with them so will the Empire. The question is when, I've come to prefer the time when it falls is the time when Skyrim is at the greatest strength it can be at. That time is with Ulfric Stormcloak as High King.

 

May the -9- Divines look over the Septim Dynasty, Martin we miss you, what an Emperor you would have been, and may Oblivion take the Mede's and all there issue, and hail Ulfric, High King of Skyrim.

 

( It's not kool-aid, but I've definitely drank the mead )

 

End of Part1

 

So for Part2, I had told him the Empire could survive and prosper if we could get someone from Talos bloodline back on the Imperial throne. Gabryal seems to have the mindset of Pelinal Whitestrake, in particular Part2, I felt like Pelinal himself was explaining what needed to be done in order to make things right again...

 

Part 2:

 

Your last point is literally the only way the Empire could survive. That and a re declaration of War on the Thalmor. Actually it would take more than that. It would take a Crusade of Annhilation. The Dragonborn has the power after all, the Thalmor should fear him more than any mortal in existence at the time.

 

The Empire could be reborn in a simple way. A request, as equals, for help from Morrowind, Hammerfell, Skyrim and half of Valenwood to take up arms in the noble cause of the Destruction of the Aldmeri Dominion. Say literally that it is a fight for freedom for all races, use a little creative diplomacy ( would have to give each part their own little bit to get angry about. The coup de tat in Valenwood, the Hunting of the Innocent in Skyrim, the Murders at the Docks in Hammerfell, the supplying of the Argonians when they attacked Morrowind, etc ). You'd not likely get Khajitt support, but they would stay out of it as well, because the Bosmer who want their country back -would- join your side and they've been eyeing Elsywher for awhile now, the Khajitt don't want to give you a reason to invade them. Same would be true of the Argonians, their swamps keep them safe, but the Dunmer remember all to well how they used an age old logic ( The Dunmer held Argonian slaves literally when the Dwemer were still alive... what a millenia ago or something like that? Anyway in the time of Vedic ) to invade and murder the civilians of several refugee camps after the Morrowind incident, and a call for a Crusade means any means necessary. If you can't invade the swamps, well burn it to the ground, poison the water, dam up the rivers and kill them off by turning Black Marsh into a modern Carthage ( for those who don't know, after the Romans destroyed Carthage they buried salt in the earth all around the ruins of the city so the ground would never be fertile again, so no one could live there. To this day you can't, it's a desert, some theorize that this action actually created the Sahara ). Which would more or less leave two areas to invade, and here's where I have to say a -very- little about myself.

 

I served 3 tours in Afghanistan in a combat unit

I'm a Military Historian now.

 

The way I'd go about it is this. With Redguard and Valenwood Support, invade Valenwood proper. This would pull a large portion of the Dominion's Navy into the inlets north of Valenwood and South of Hammerfell where it could be bottled up by RedGuard Navy. Destroy the Dominion backed Colovian Dynasty ( which is defunct if you read the history, they gave up their ties to the crown during a civil war 1000 years ago, the name is just a prop the Dominion use to justify their involvement ) I predict that resistance would be little, considering that Bosmer know their history, and know the only reason that the Colovian's are in control is because the Dominion helped them, and the Empire stood by and watched. This would lead to a two-fold victory. First just by bottling up a good portion of the Dominion Navy in a small place you can cut it apart little by little, and once you capture the north shore of Valenwood you deny the Navy any safe port.

 

Without any support the average sailing vessel can stay at sea roughly 3 months. Wait 3 months and you win, it's as simple as that. Neutralize the Dominion numbers by at least 1/3rd.

 

Of course attacking south does leave the North Open, but this is where you'd give Ulfric an Open hand, provided he works with the Dunmer ( I'd prefer house Hlaalu, it's the most forward thinking house, and probably one of the largest still in existence ) if there are two groups on earth that know Guerilla Warfare better than the Dunmer of house Hlaalu ( they're known to be excellent assassins for instance ) and the Stormcloaks. Set them with the mission of a no-quarter order on Thalmor positions, sympathisizers, etc. Call it a terror campaign if you want to, just order them to " anything goes until the Valenwood Campaign is over " order. No Dominion Ship could sail the seas without risk of attack by smaller, faster, groups of Nord ships ( think WW1 era submarine warfare ) and no Thalmor could sleep at night on land, nothing. Do to the Thalmor what the the Thalmor did to Talos worshipers, and then moreso.

 

After the Fall of Valenwood, Redguard Naval Forces and a even more Numerous group of Bosmer could then be transported by ship and land to HighRock and Morrowind. Preferable to keep Elves with Elves and Humans with Humans in this case, tensions being what they are. Allow Redguards and Nords to destroy Highrock's Thalmor bases. ( if you check the History Books both of these groups have had massive problems with the Bretons before ) and give the Bretons and Orcs the choice. Stand with us, or Stand against us, but we're giving no quarter.

 

Give no Quarter.

 

Then From Morrowind and Skyrim Ports sail North to the Summerset isles, land your combined forces, and raze the whole place to the ground, let the hate of Tamriel be cooled in the blood of the Dominion.

 

Then and only then can the idea of coming back together in a new Empire ( with a new name, the Medes have -got- to go ) could come to pass. A good amount of the Extension of self rule would be needed, as well as, imho. Requesting each of the area's raise their own legions, or their own races, using their own tactics. Holding the name " Legion " only to denote that it's part of the Empire. Put those Legion's directly under the Control of the King of each Area, with the balance being that for each Legion that one of the Imperial States raises, the Empire as a whole raises one. The stop gap obviously being that the " state " Legions ( think National Guard ) are paid for by the State, whereas the Imperial Legions are raised by the state taxes. Keeps a balance of power so to speak, no one area is strong enough to destroy it's neighbor, and even all the groups working together would only equal the Empire.

 

You of course would have to allow the individual states a pretty broad degree of self rule, including using their legions as personal armies. I imagine that Elsywyr would call uncle pretty quick to keep the Bosmer from overrunning it, with Imperial Permission even, and if they needed help, well of course the Empire will help, that's what the Empire is for that's why you pay taxes <Insert smiley face diplomatic speak here while talking about war to a state within the empire> the Black Marsh would think long and hard about what the Dunmer might be up to in order to pay back the blood debt that the Argonians foisted on them.

 

Rename Summerset Isles to the Isle of Despair. Destroy all plant life on it, turn it into a prison colony constant surrounded by an Imperial Navy with mages on board making sure escape is truly impossible. Have a giant crystal float above it so the Empire can watch the last of the Thalmor devour each other as they resort to a cannibalism.

 

Case Closed.

 

That of course means nothing without someone the quality of a Tiber, Uriel, or Martin Septim on the throne. Even then it means some concessions and reworking of the system, a new series of increased autonomy for the subject states ( I think Uriel suggested something similar before his murder ) and frankly, is just a fantasy that I'd like to see if I thought it had any chance of happening. The fact remains though that either Skyrim or Hammerfell alone, given seven years to regain and rebuild could invade and defeat the Summerset Isles. Though Valenwood be trickier just based on a land type basis, at least without willing help from Bosmer rebels.

 

And yes, you can post the whole thing if you like, I had no idea about any debate at all. Just sign my name to it if you don't mind.

 

As far as Stormcloak values being Imperial ones, I'll quote Balgruuf the Greater who unknowingly backs that statement up when you defeat him at the Battle of Whiterun if you're a stormcloak. Vignar Grey-Mane is being made the new Jarl and in the conversation Vignar states that the Empire was a threat to Skyrim, Balgruuf angrily replies " You fool! We -are- The Empire! Look at us, it's our blood that built it, our swords that forged it, our strength that held it together! "

 

Case closed Balgruuf, Skyrim is the Empire, so it's not only Skyrim's right, but it's duty, to preserve Imperial Ideals, when the " Empire " forgets them.

 

Cheers :)

 

End of Part2

 

Part3:

 

Thank you for yours bigmagy, I think that it takes a soldier to truly understand the phrase " I would gladly retire from the world were such a day to dawn ". It goes along with Gen. Schwarzkopf's statement " There is no greater pacifist than a soldier ".

 

We know what can happen, and in the end we just want to protect our homes. I believe it was Jefferson who said " There is no greater love than to put your one mortal body between your beloved homeland and the desolation of war "

 

I'll see you when that last hill is taken brother, and we all finally get to go home. Or as Ulfric would say " We finally retire from the world "

 

Thank you for listening reading my analysis. It took a long time to come to the conclusion I did and honestly I felt a little dirty about it, ended up having to read some of Gen. Robert E. Lee's diaries to understand how I might find myself on the " Rebel " side. Ulfric is no Lee, and Skyrim is not the Confederacy by any means. However both men faced very tough choices and did what they thought was right, sacrificing even their sacred honor ( for those young kids out there our founders pledged to defend America with their " Lives, Lands, and Sacred Honor " ) on the table in the name of that age old soldier's virtue: Duty.

 

Also if people who read this don't know what Duty is I'll define it for you. Duty is a debt that you owe yourself. It is an action you simply cannot live with yourself if you do not perform. If you cannot look at yourself in the mirror tomorrow because of something you did not do today, then you failed in your Duty somewhere.

 

Remember that the next time someone talks about whether someone did their " Duty ". It is not within another person's ability to define someone else's duty, it is only within the heart of that person. A man of Duty does what is necessary to fulfill his own sense of self worth, in some ways this could be held as selfish, but for those of high ideals, those who believe in grand causes, those who hope for a better tomorrow, Duty is the highest of virtues, and upon the backs of such people is laid the foundation of the future.

 

Can you believe the President turned down my offer to be his speech writer? :)

Edited November 13, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[modder3434]

The empire hands down. Best long-term plan for Skyrim and Tamerial as a whole.

 

Man must stand united against the Thalmor and thier Elven allies.

[Maharg67]

Neither! Do not trust to the Emperor or Empire much and think that the Stormcloak leader is ruling only for himself while being ruthless against all Non Nords. I tend to go neutral and focus on dealing with the dragon menace and other quests. As a neutral there is a chance, supposedly, to form a treaty between the two. This is no spoiler because I do not know how true it is.

[spanian77]

Take down the Empire...Nords rule their lands,not fancy elves and Imperial hypocrites..

[Gabryal]

I had no idea this thread existed so thank you bigmagy for letting me know about it. I do find it amazing that it's as even as it is. However in it's own way I understand. As big so nicely quoted me, I was an imperial all the way once upon a time. In Oblivion I remembered Martin, how strong he was as a person yet humble and fair minded. He was selfless in the end, and died an Emperor's death, no matter how short his reign. I felt that to abandon the Empire was to abandon his memory. Then I began to wonder what had happened that the Empire had ended up in such a sorry state of affairs.

 

What I found blew my hair back. I was genuinely angry. I felt that Martin, Uriel, Tiber hell all the Septims, heroic Emperors of the past had been betrayed by a dubious house of a dynasty that had done nothing but invite disaster upon itself. I felt like I was looking at the Emperor's towards the end of Rome versus the Emperor's at it's beginning. However since I had " lived " in a sense through all those years from Arena - Skyrim, I felt betrayed on top of it all. Just because a couple of centuries has passed in Tamriel, it's only been 13 years for me. The mistakes that the Mede Dynasty has made has been unforgivable, and while the money still bears the name of Hero's the Throne is sat upon gold unworthy to bear their name. That's when I played Skyrim through for the first time as a Stormcloak.

 

For the first time Ulfric made sense, his past is colorful to say the least, and he's not perfect by any means, but he has the heart of a Septim. He's a man who wants what's best for his people, no matter what his detractor's may say. Play the game once through as a Stormcloak and you find out how many lies are told about him ( and some truths, there is no doubt about the events in Markath for example ), but I do challenge anyone to explain to me the difference between invading and capturing a Skyrim city and invading and Capturing a Cyrodil one. The punishment dole'd out on the Thalmor when the Imperial City was captured was intense. Their General spent 33 days hanging in a cage, and every single soldier in the city was put to the sword.

 

If the same thing happened when Ulfric recaptured Markath, how is Ulfric Stormcloak somehow Inferior to Titus Mede morally for doing it? Both cities were captured by enemy forces, both cities had atrocities perpetuated against the common people when it happened, both cities had collaborators, and the armies and collaborators paid dearly for their crimes when the cities were retook.

 

Are the people of the Imperial City somehow more important than in Markath? Is it because there are more people there? Is it because the Imperial City is the Capitol and Markath is not?

 

Ulfric Stormcloak was captured by the Thalmor, this is undeniable as well, and yet somehow despite his capture and the Thalmor insinuation that he was a willing collaborator, it seems the Thalmor did no better in Skyrim after his capture than before, and of course the Thalmor -never- lie, hell they don't even launch Pearl Harbor or 9/11 type attacks do they? Of course not, they're honorable people who would never dream to do such base things as to tell lies about their enemy, I mean it's just not in their nature. They even tolerate Talos worship after all.

 

The longer I played, the more I understood the man, and the more I realized that if anything Skyrim was caught in the middle. The Empire on one side and the Thalmor on the other. In order to attack the latter, the former must be gotten rid of. Since the Empire no longer would fight the Thalmor in the name of her citizens, since it would no longer even hold it's head up and say " Tiber Septim is -ours- and you cannot take him from us! " the Thalmor won. They didn't win by arms or armies, they didn't win by entreatments or treaties, they didn't win by strength, they didn't win by wits. They won by will. It was as simple as that, The Emperor lost his nerve. I thought back to Martin on that day when I saw him for the last time, fighting hell itself, and asked myself " What would he have said? " I realized then that if Martin was in the Player's position he would have said " Do you have an Axe I can borrow? ". It's as simple as that, there comes a day when you may have to kill or die for what you believe in, and Martin would never have allowed the Dominion to take away the legacy of the Empire, he'd have died by Elven blades vs. Daedra ones but he would have died for the same reason.

 

As far as Whitestrake goes, I'm afraid that's 100% correct, though really I was thinking Zhukov when I wrote it ( Russian General, Western Front, World War 2 ). Essentially what had happened after the Nazi invasion was a war of absolute attrition, destruction of anything and anyone in the path of the Nazi War Machine ( remind us of anyone? I'll give you a hint, it rhymes with Khalmor ). After the battles of Moscow and Stalingrad stalled and finally stopped the Nazi advance, Zhukov ( who had designed the defense at Moscow ) developed a policy to overwhelm the Nazis with absolute attrition, essentially revisiting upon them what they had brought to the table, and more so if possible. He persued a campaign of absolute destruction and fear to demoralize Nazi troops and break formations with surgical force before wiping ( literally ) them out. When he crossed into Germany ( at Seelow Heights ) he proceeded to destroy everything in Germany within reach of his now massive forces ( 11 million strong in all theatre's ) and wiped out most of east Germany. These fear tactics were more than that though, they were also tactics of revenge. He was one of the few men who could argue with Stalin and live to tell the tale. He was ferocious, and at one meeting of the Politburo when the Minister of Defense ( his name has escaped me ) and political rival scoffed at his idea of " Neutralizing any German Threat for a century " as the end goal of his campaign and asked him " How do you intend to do that " Zhukov turned on the man and apparently came over the table to be right in his face saying " By burning a terror in their racial memory that will last till the end of time! "

 

Stalin is rumored to have joked later that " It is well that we do not allow even our Field Marshals to report to the Politburo with a pistol, the table was new "

 

So yes, a war of utter Annhilation is what I called for against the Aldmeri Dominion, and I stand by it, and I stand by that the Empire is a hindrance not an asset to that goal. The Emperor Titus Mede (gag) II is Chamberlain and Ulfric Stormcloak is Churchill. All emotion aside it comes down to that, on one side we have appeasers who want peace at any cost, and on the other we have soldiers who will pay any cost for peace. Peace of course being, peace to live as you choose. That's what it boils down to, it's not peace if someone else dictates it to you.

 

There is no peace to be had in the Empire when that peace is dictated to you, and there would be no war in Skyrim if the Emperor had understood that.

 

So that's why I voted Stormcloak, it's how I went from an Imperial to a Stormcloak. Thank you bigmagy for letting me know about this, for your kindness in re-posting what I wrote, and for finding enough merit in my words as to find them worth reposting.

 

Long Live the High King, may Talos bless Skyrim.

[StormHammer81]

Well I was a Stormcloak first :) I felt I needed to share this because I've never seen anyone on here put it as plainly as this. Unbiased, from the heart with no "we hate you" tactics and I agree.

 

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE!!!

Edited November 13, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

FREEDOM OR SOVNGARDE!!!

 

Aye

 

Oh and on the whole racist thing with Ulfric, look up the phrase " Martial Race " and consider the fact that Churchill used the phrase all the time. Then combine it with US reaction to Japanese Citizens in the USA both only 70 years ago. Then ask yourself " Am I comparing the culture I live in today to one that separated from me by time, space ( or in this case reality? ) " Imagine how boring games would be if all their characters were PC. Doesn't take a Stormcloak to be racist in Skyrim, the Battle-Born's and their attitude towards the Khajiit for example. At least Ulfric has a mild defense in that the Dunmer are at least " mer " same as the Thalmor.

 

Not saying I approve, just saying you gotta let some things go. Ulfric isn't lining up Dunmer to be executed ( which if you recall is exactly what happens to a Nord when you walk into Solitude, for reasons that are purely political. There seems to be a lot of guards in Solitude, how come this one guy got singled out? As far as I can tell he just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time with, possibly, the wrong political affiliation.. I can see McArthur saying " And you sir.. have you ever been a Stormcloak? " )

 

Also if the Dunmer are doing so badly pretty much everywhere ( and I do mean Everywhere ) where is the Empire to help them out? Isn't that part of the job of Emperor?

 

Edited November 13, 2012 by Gabryal

[StormHammer81]

This is another piece from the conversation, I do still believe the Empire can and should be saved, although only if this comes with change... not more of the same. :)

 

Indeed the Empire could be saved. There are two reasons which make the Empire redeemable:

 

1) Majority of the Empire seems to be against the WGC if for not but different reasons.

2) Titus Mede II (TMII) resigns.

3) You can take the fight to the Thalmor, namely by Destroying North Watch Keep.

 

WGC is TMII's treaty. No one really wants this except for the Thalmor, TMII and the rich elite classes. Cyrodil doesn't want it, Skyrim doesn't want it etc etc etc...

 

So, since most of the Empire doesn't want the WGC for whatever reason, then you can't hold the people at fault and really, it's difficult to even hold the Empire at fault BECAUSE the current Imperial system is being administered by TMII. He's making decisions for everyone. Which means ultimately, it's his fault and really no one else's. Logic would dictate, that if one could do wrong by everyone, then there is no reason why one could not do right by everyone.

 

TMII resignation brings with it the possibility of change. The Legion is loyal to the Emperor, even now. So, the right man in the wrong place could fix this deteriorating situation before it gets any worse and the Legion would follow him/her. It would need to be done soon and this succession to the throne would have to be 100% legitimate, unlike TMI usurping the Imperial throne. Dragonborn would be perfect for this opportunity. Ulfric would not allow the Empire to be reborn, he would look to do right by Ysgramor not Talos. For he is Ysgramor's descendant, who fought the elves too.

 

If you take down Northwatch Keep by force and complete the related Quest, people will go around making comments like, "The Thalmor have been knocked down a peg" lol. So, this is important because with a new Emperor, people looking for change and then the Thalmor no longer being respected or feared in the eyes of the people, then yes the Empire most definitely could turn things around. However, Skyrim is the key to this and whatever is done, the mistakes of old cannot be repeated. This means the people of each remaining province must come FIRST and the state second. Fighting the Thalmor could be really dangerous though, as the mind can be a most terrible weapon imaginable, but remember, the HEART always wins in the end. :)

Edited November 13, 2012 by bigmagy1981

[Gabryal]

This is another piece from the conversation, I do still believe the Empire can and should be saved, although only if this comes with change... not more of the same. :)

 

Indeed the Empire could be saved. There are two reasons which make the Empire redeemable:

 

1) Majority of the Empire seems to be against the WGC if for not but different reasons.

2) Titus Mede II (TMII) resigns.

3) You can take the fight to the Thalmor, namely by Destroying North Watch Keep.

 

WGC is TMII's treaty. No one really wants this except for the Thalmor, TMII and the rich elite classes. Cyrodil doesn't want it, Skyrim doesn't want it etc etc etc...

 

So, since most of the Empire doesn't want the WGC for whatever reason, then you can't hold the people at fault and really, it's difficult to even hold the Empire at fault BECAUSE the current Imperial system is being administered by TMII. He's making decisions for everyone. Which means ultimately, it's his fault and really no one else's. Logic would dictate, that if one could do wrong by everyone, then there is no reason why one could not do right by everyone.

 

TMII resignation brings with it the possibility of change. The Legion is loyal to the Emperor, even now. So, the right man in the wrong place could fix this deteriorating situation before it gets any worse and the Legion would follow him/her. It would need to be done soon and this succession to the throne would have to be 100% legitimate, unlike TMI usurping the Imperial throne. Dragonborn would be perfect for this opportunity. Ulfric would not allow the Empire to be reborn, he would look to do right by Ysgramor not Talos. For he is Ysgramor's descendant, who fought the elves too.

 

If you take down Northwatch Keep by force and complete the related Quest, people will go around making comments like, "The Thalmor have been knocked down a peg" lol. So, this is important because with a new Emperor, people looking for change and then the Thalmor no longer being respected or feared in the eyes of the people, then yes the Empire most definitely could turn things around. However, Skyrim is the key to this and whatever is done, the mistakes of old cannot be repeated. This means the people of each remaining province must come FIRST and the state second. Fighting the Thalmor could be really dangerous though, as the mind can be a most terrible weapon imaginable, but remember, the HEART always wins in the end. :)

 

Ulfric is actually the easiest part of the puzzle to figure out. Give him exactly what he -says- he wants. He wants a moot, give him one, right away. Right now. Invite him to make his case, forgive his " murder " of Torgyy, say it was a misunderstanding and by Skyrim Law everything was right. Then tell the Thalmor where to stick it, rip the WGC up in their faces and declare Talos a God again. Then of course TMII has to go, if not the entire Dynasty. The people want change, and with change comes a new Dynasty. The Dragonborn fits in nicely here. So what you end up with is Ulfric with his moot, and you've taken away any reason for him to *censored*. Even support him in his claim for High King, it's not like he isn't qualified, give him his bygones be bygones bit, encourage the Moot to make him High King in Skyrim, endorse him openly. So really he has no reason to *censored*, none at all, kill him with kindness, and he may resent you for it but he can't hate you ( publically ) for it, because in Skyrim the -people- believe you've done right by Skyrim.

 

 

It's not like you're losing much in the deal either, Ulfric is certainly qualified. Brilliant war leader, Jarl of the Capitol City, Impressive Military Record, respected ( even if they dislike him ) in Skyrim, and if you give him everything he wants ( minus independence from the Empire entirely ) he'd -have- to bend the knee to the Emperor ( provided that Emperor is founder of a new Dynasty. My current char is named Athigg MacRiall and a MacRiall Dynasty with a full blooded Nord on the throne ( I'd even have as my Dragonborn's Dynasty a refusal to take an Imperial Name, what are they going to do in Cyrodil? Revolt? in the middle of a war with the Skyrim issue settled? I'd invite all my housecarl's down to be my personal bodyguard, and a select guard made up of members of all the cities in Skyrim to be the Palace guards ). Reform the Blades and Publically support the Dawnguard. Step One, Diplomatically settled. Ulfric neutralized, a new Imperial Dynasty, Skyrim not only represented but even favored by the Empire. All the wind sucked right out of his sails.

 

Step two, a new treaty with Hammerfell. Start with reparations in the form of no taxation for seven years on Hammerfell if they rejoin the Empire. Give a Redguard from the ( forget which house, not the Crowns, the other ones ) command of the Imperial Navy. Set up an elite Unit of Al'kir Horsemen to be stationed in Cyrodil, complete with their traditional armor, weapons, and dress. Promise War to the Death with the Thalmor. Hammerfell returned.

 

Step Four. Tell High Rock, flat out, that if they don't straighten up and fly right you'll divide them between Hammerfell and Skyrim and let the leaders of those nations sort them out with Imperial money backing them. Let the rich merchants of Cyrodil pay for stability in the Empire.

 

Step five. Approach the Dunmer, offer them all lands in Eastern Cyrodil ( where they are the Majority anyway ) in exchange for them coming back into the Empire. Set up house Hlaalu as head of an interim Government to oversee the transition.

 

Step six. In secret inform the leaders of each major section. Ulfric, the not Crowns house in Hammerfell, and the head of House Hlaalu to prepare for a war against the Thalmor.

 

Step Seven, Invade Argonia, return the lands belonging to the Dunmer to them, incorporate it into the Empire again.

 

Step Eight, Declare Crusade against the Thalmor, invade Valenwood.

 

Step Nine, Invade the Summerset Isles and reduce it to Ash, politely threaten the now Isolated Khajiit Kingdoms back into the Empire

 

Step Ten, Rule for another thousand years.

 

Thing is we know TMII isn't going to step down, we also know the WGC won't be broken.

 

The things that bring down Empires are amazing aren't they?