On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

DarthSokar · June 19, 2016

It's a little disturbing how many advocates for thievery are trying to defend Bethesda's negligence and the wrongful actions of others.

It beggars belief how people can try to twist a simple concept like "respect the wishes and work of others" into platforms for "gimmie gimmie gimmie or else!" mentalities.

Thank you Dark0ne for saying what needed to be said.

Kraynic · June 19, 2016

In response to post #39525245. #39528920, #39529290, #39529630, #39533865, #39542225 are all replies on the same post.

CliveBarker wrote:

In response to post #39505740. #39506695, #39506970, #39507980, #39508195, #39508525, #39508680, #39508790, #39509285, #39509720, #39510275, #39511760, #39511995, #39512010, #39512485, #39512650, #39512810, #39514085, #39514395, #39514900, #39515165, #39515295, #39515610, #39516210, #39516250, #39516375, #39518215, #39518480, #39520555, #39521910, #39522230, #39522760, #39524160 are all replies on the same post.

boomerizer wrote: OK, so, I read most of this. I know, TL;DR, I'm usually not one to skip, but most of this doesn't really apply to me. The thing with moderating etc, et al.

SO, I understand the whole stolen mods thing is bad. But, only "in a way."

Controversial, I know.

Here's why:
1) I've been using nexus probably on and off for the better part of 3 years-- though I don't really remember when I actually created my account to first mod Fallout: New Vegas-- I'm sure nobody cares anyway, so its not relevant. So I'll simply say: I don't know many modders by name.

Why is this relevant? Well, see, with 'stolen mods' on Xbox One (which I use, because I have a 2 Xbox Ones, and Xbox 360, a PS4, a /decent/ desktop computer, and 2 sub-par macbook pro laptops-- why duplicates? Well, I am married, and sometimes my wife and I like to play some games together.-- that last tidbit is irrelevant, but what /IS/ relevant is that I play many games, across many platforms. For example? I have Skyrim on Steam, I have Skyrim on the 360 (honestly, the only reason I still have the old thing). I play battlefield and the fallout games on both available platforms. Up until mods for console-- the only reason I played games on the PC was for that reason (if the game itself wasn't a PC exclusive.) Why? Console games are just far more easily accessible. I prefer to play them there, rather than worry about "will my computer run this?"

OK, so back on topic: I don't know mod authors by name. I mean, I do recognize some, like, say, Azar with hair mods. But that is pretty much, about it.

Why is this relevant? Because I just download them, and use them. I click like/favorite/endorse, whatever when I really like a mod, but other than that, I'm just a user. I appreciate all the mods created, sure, but I don't really look at the authors' names.

Here's the killer-- the part that will likely piss every mod author off.(but I mean well.)

I don't care if a mod has been stolen to be put up on the Xbox One site-- because to me, it is merely somebody throwing up a good mod onto a site when the author of the original PC mod hasn't taken the time of day to do it themselves. *gasp* I'm an douche for saying that, I know.

The biggest example I can say, of a mod I'd really like made (re)available is the NCR Veteran Ranger armor. I mean, it's the only mod I use on the PC that ISN'T readily available on Xbox. (I mean, I also have the Patriot Shield on PC and it isn't on xbox yet, but thats a story for another day.) Though, for a brief time,it had been, and the worst part is that it's not like the person who threw it on the console mod site claimed it was theirs. It was a mod that added several things-- and dudes, seriously, the description word limit doesn't really afford the uploaded to go into great detail.

Sure, the people that steal the mod and put it up on the console site could--SHOULD give credit where credit is due. But with that word limit, it really shouldn't be a priority. A description of what the mod is, and what it does, and how to use it should come first. THEN, if it can be done, sure, give credit where credit is due.

But mods are a free service, distributed free to a populace that I don't think really cares who makes the mods, just as long as they are made. I'd be more with you guys if the mods being stolen were being charged for. I know there is one dirtbag that was trying to encourage donations for stolen mods-- and yeah, OK, that is pathetic, and that guy (forgot the username) can rack off. But the way I see it, if its a mod that is on PC and isn't uploaded by the mod author due either to time, or they are a PC-Master-Race-r that doesn't think mods should be available to Console Peasants? Yeah, I don't care about how they feel-- its just someone making a good mod available to Xbox One.

Now, about this user unfriendliness on the bethesda.net/in-game mod browser?

Uh....what? I can use it just fine. Y for search. Use words to search for keywords. If mod is available. Click Download. How can it POSSIBLY be any easier to use?

In fact, I find it far easier to use than Nexus page or Nexus Mod Manager. Especially since with Skyrim mods, I ALSO need like 3 other programs to get certain mods to work-- LOOT, FNIS, SKSE. It's a nightmare most of the time, especially ENB's.

So, I guess what I mean to say is, if you care that much about stolen mods on Xbox One, be the first to make YOUR mods available on Xbox One before crying about your mod being stolen. Considering how easy that sounds...?

Makes me think most PC mod authors just don't give a flying stegosauras about the console community. When, y'know, at least in my case, I am both PC and Xbox. (I have a PS4 but, I really don't have anything worth repeated play.) I just want the mod available. I don't care who makes it available. Just that it is. And if it isn't available, or if a modder stops making it available for whatever reason, then, why even bother caring? If you care; make the effort to make it available. If you don't care to make it available for console, then don't cry out when someone else DOES make the effort to make it available. If the 'thief' is asking/demanding for payment/donations of some kind---or straight up saying "I made this! look at me! praise my awesome modding skillz!", yeah, OK, cry out all you want. But if its just a simple copy/paste upload with paraphrased description of the mod, why does it matter?

I don't know man, its all undue drama from both sides.

((Sorry I am all over the place. Rushed through, and without any real structure. Brain vomit.))

TLDR version:
Stop bitchin' if you don't make the effort to make it available. If you care enough to *censored*, but not enough to provide; why do it in the first place?
durge13 wrote: You don't seem to understand the stress put on modders when someone else starts distributing their mods. If that other person falls behind even a single version, it could mean the original author getting bug reports for things that have already been fixed, possibly leading to hours looking for the source of a bug that doesn't exist anymore. It has f*** all to do with availability to the masses (as you'd know if you read the whole post), modders can do what they want with their mods (within legal reason) and as always they have no reason to explain it to you why they do it that way. They could make it only available to people with the letter A at the start of their surname, and there is nothing you could say that would invalidate their choice to do so.

The fact is, stolen mods remove control from the original author, they may be changed slightly, they may be corrupted, out of date, and if an author has literally hundreds of thousands of people using their mod (like many on the Nexus do) then that can lead to unmanageable numbers of people asking about bugs that don't exist or features requests that have already been added.

It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be and I haven't covered even half the problems that can arise from people making their own stolen distributions of a mod.

Obviously this doesn't happen with every mod that is stolen but it happens enough that a blanket policy of banning those who distribute stolen mods (regardless of if they 'give credit' as it's really not about credit for most).
boomerizer wrote: Ok, well while I can understand that-- I don't like to download complex mods that require constant updates. Usually, just armor/clothing and weapons. I mean, how many times do you really need to update a helmet?

That said, you merely validated my own argument on author names. How does the original mod author get the number of people asking about bugs and s***? If ModAuthorA makes the mod, and ModTheifB steals the mod, and updates the mod then how do the people end up at ModAuthorA for support?

I mean, sounds to me, credit is very unnecessary if the users know where to go.
Ethreon wrote: What you boil down to - I don't give a damn what happens as long as I GET WHAT I WANT.

.. this is why aliens avoid us.
boomerizer wrote: Incorrect. Best analogy that I can come up with:

I buy a burger. I don't know the cooks name.
But I know the waiter or waitress.
I thank the waitress.
If she's nice, I tip the waitress.

The cook goes thankless.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the cook for providing me with a well seasoned and prepared meal. But in the end, all that matters is that it was provided. And the cook can live with that because he knows. He doesn't need the credit.
wsxcgy wrote: @bommerizer

but waitresses don't steal the burgers from the cook once they have made it. the cook gives the burger to the waitress so the consumer may enjoy it.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Even better boomer...

At your work place you finish a great job and take a break for a coffee and a snack.
Mean time a another person take your hard work and rush to the boss, bragging about his success!
He will be appreciated by a lot of people, maybe promoted, maybe the boss will give him a new office.

When you will return from your break, you will also have a reward, a new office... next to the toilet, because you have not done well your work and you will have to do all the dirty work from now on.

How you will feel it now ?!
boomerizer wrote: No, the cook leaves it on the counter/hotplate-- the cook doesn't care who ordered the burger, or even who gets the burger. He doesn't know where its going.

Then, the waitress delivers it to the table. But maybe, I ordered it, but then slid the plate to my wife or daughter, or a homeless person I invited to my table because it is payday and I felt generous.

In this case, the mod author uploads the mod to the internet, for everyone to download.

Now, I can download it from the original site, or I can download it from a ("stolen") redistribution-- it makes little difference to me. Because I don't look at author names. I merely check to make sure the download isn't dirty.
boomerizer wrote: Look, I'm not saying credit shouldn't be given where credit is due, in redistributed mods.

What I am mostly trying to convey is that unless the stolen mod is nefarious in nature, and the person is going out of their way to claim is as their own, it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds to me like mod authors are taking their works farrrrrrr toooooo seriously. And if thats how they feel, then perhaps they should make the effort to write their name in the mod-- there are plenty of mods that bring up pop up windows in the game "Welcome to FOCOM" for example. Can just say "This mod made by <> and distributed by <>".

I wouldn't leave my work unlabelled.

Oh, and a thought I just had:
At a job, I'd be getting paid. Money.

Here, its volunteer work. Nobody is really benefiting from 'stealing' a mod. I mean, seriously. In the best case scenario, the mod author gets more notoriety, because users search for the mod name (ie. Commonwealth Cuts, I had to search for because I couldn't find it on the nexus after downloading it on Xbox One). Because to be honest, I don't know the author name of Commonwealth Cuts.

The worst case, the mod author has to say "sorry, the only way I can fix your problem is if you uninstall THAT mod, and give me a bit of time to upload MY original version so that you may continue to enjoy my work."

So. Yeah.

boomerizer wrote: I also can't speak for how mods work, I know.

But I know that adding new 'physical' assets like armor, weapons, clothes, new workshop items-- those shouldn't really require tweaking between PC and Xbox. Fallout 4 is Fallout 4 either way you look at it.

Complex mods like quest lines, sure I can see where there might be some trouble. And worse, graphical enhancements-- yeah I get it. It's not just a simple port. But without only 2GB to play with, my only concern is adding physical assets, rather than trying to make the game look better-- because FO4 already looks pretty dang good. I wish I could download more than I have, though-- I sure would like to see quest mods like Skryims Falskaar and Lost City... but one of those mods is 2GB or more on its own.

Besides, you've created a mod, put a lot of work into it, and then uploaded it online-- your involvement is basically done. It's not like you have to worry about mass producing a physical object. Yet, you've made one product that now ANYONE can get for themselves. And if you've done your job right, there should be no need to fix anything.

You have no way of knowing if it works on console unless you own one yourself, upload your mod yourself, and test it, yourself. A lot of work that you might not want to do, but someone else already has? How does that add stress to you?

Nemesis8727 wrote: I agree with 95% of the things you say. The last 5% is the stuff I forgot after I read it.
I have created stuff in the past and I don't care how people use it or how they get it.
If they get it on some site no one uses (bethesda.net) where they wont thank me anyway if I took the time to upload it.
Or if they got it here on nexus, I don't care.
I can understand if creators do care but I think its just waste of energy to go complain on a site no one uses.
If I download a mod on nexus I look on the info, how to, FAQ and if I'm impressed I might look over the authors other mods but on a console I just want to press download.
EffELOfficial wrote: Wow. Flamewar. Right there. Your Burger analogy is more like the relationship between Mod Authors and the Nexus. The Nexus being the Waitress. Only difference is that the Cook's name is pasted on the plate, there.

Holy crap, that's an excellent idea, restaurants should do that.
Brabbit1987 wrote: I pretty much agree as well. I think this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is. In fact, I would say the over reaction just made the situation worse.

I also, think the easiest way to prevent this is to upload your mod before anyone else does.

Now the only reason I agree is because it's pretty much the only thing that can be done at the moment, unless you want to go through the process of taking down your mod uploaded by someone else.

I do think people should not be stealing. Let's say for example, the mod author doesn't want to make their mod available to consoles. I believe that should be respected. However, that is not the way things tend to work when it comes to things like this. Not everyone respects one another, and that honestly should be obvious.

It sort of similar in a way to piracy. Yes, it sucks, but as a developer you should be thinking ahead and how you will deal with it. I myself, would upload my own game so people can torrent it. I am more about getting my game out there, than I am for trying to make every last penny I possibly can.

So if you are a mod developer and you decide not to release it on consoles, you have to expect someone is going to do it for you, whether you like it or not. At least for now.

Bethesda has something in the works to lessen these issues. I doubt it will stop it entirely though.
boomerizer wrote: Maybe not in the manner that I think you mean. In a lot of restaurants, there are multiple people that work on your order. I used to work in a kitchen, at a resort-- up to the entire kitchen might have something to do with your order. One guy grills the meat, another one assembles it, someone else makes the sides, another person might make another side.... that, and some kitchen employees don't stick around long enough to make plastering a name on a plate cost effective. Notice how I'm getting into monetary value, now?

Mod authors don't have that concern, now do they? Money. Their product (mods) is free. And you can't steal that which is free.
boomerizer wrote: woah, brabbit. wish I'd seen this before posting to the one above you.

Right, there should be steps taken to prevent it, but like piracy, it can't be fully protected against. I mean, these state-of-the-art pirated copies of stuff are often still released even before the actual product is released. With games, online features are often forgone since that is the only way to verify a legit copy. Online authentication. Can't do that with mods, though-- as they are acquired digitally. How would you stop mod theft?

You can't stop thieves. In order to do that, you'd have to remove either the desire, or the opportunity. The only way to remove the opportunity is to not upload the mod at all. So you have to focus on deterring the desire to 'steal'. Best way to do that, is to be the first to upload your mod to the new medium. And if you don't like consoles, or just don't have the time, then you sort of have to concede the point.
Ethreon wrote: <<I'm ok with theft as long as I get what I want and the victim is given credit. What's the harm after all, I get what I want, everyone is happy.>>

:rolleyes:
boomerizer wrote: It's not theft because this s*** is free. There is no physical loss. You still have the mod page. You still have the mod assets on your computer. Oh my god, the pain.
Ethreon wrote: Please go back to the woods.

OP disagrees with you in clear terms.
Mod makers disagree with you in clear terms.
Beth disagrees with you in clear terms.
Law disagrees with you.
Common sense does too.
Billy1969 wrote: boomerizer, you're obviously a gamefaq console forum cesspool troll, please take your filth back there, k thx.
Brabbit1987 wrote: @Billy1969

Is name calling really necessary?
boomerizer wrote: Brabbit: Of course, it is necessary for the unintelligent to resort to name-calling, when they don't have an argument that can stand on its own merit.

Never been to GameFaq. At least, not knowingly.

I actually spend most of my time playing and enjoying games. In fact, before my first post here, today, I was playing Fallout 4. On my PC.

I love Bethesda games so much I own them on PC/Steam AND Xbox 360/One. I buy the games twice. Because I'm a gamer. (And because I'm married and sometimes play with-and-or-at-the-same-time-as my wife.)(And because I might have a gaming problem.)

BuffHamster wrote: What Ethreon said is quite true.

Try this logic on for size: If the mod authors are disrespected and the get angry enough with their content being bootlegged, "pffft! there goes your 'free' mods" ie; no longer available to the public. You now have to pay for them with Bitcoin."

Epic Fail in Logic. If the burger was not cooked well, or the meal was ice cold when it reached you, or was not prepared to your liking:
Do you still tip? Yes?, what a rube.
Do you complain to the wait staff? Awesome, where does that complaint go? Ah yes, the wait staff reports back to the kitchen staff.
Tips? Guess what? They are usually shared with the kitchen staff, so, bad preparation and poorly cleared tables = no tips, and later, a decline in the customer base followed by the establishment shutting down and everyone on the street.

You really need to think the apathy thing through here, rather than use superficial excuses for that feeling of entitlement. The Mod Authors owe you nothing, you on the other hand owe them, at the least, a modicum of thankful respect for creating a product that you obviously do not have the ability to do yourself.
EDIT:

Another epic fail in logic. Alternative to "uploading it first", how about "not uploading at all"?, or uploading content that turns your console into a doorstop?
Mods that use external requirements, such as Fallout 4 Script Extender, will not run on the console, ... accept it.
There are many ways the mod author can prevent their work from being pirated, and many have already taken this route.
boomerizer wrote: You're assuming the burger is ill prepared.

The mods I download are typically complete, and not broken-- as I've yet to download an incomplete or broken mod on my console. (well, I've downloaded a Hide Pipboy one that didn't work, but the answer to that was simply Disable and Delete.)

If something is broken or does not work, I disable or uninstall as appropriate, and leave it at that. If its a mod I really like or want to see, I check on it later. I don't harass the author. I just wait for it to be usable.

But that is because I know that modding can be risky. It can break the savegame, or even the game itself. If something doesn't work right, I move on. If my game gets broke, I reinstall and move on.

What a monster I am.
Billy1969 wrote: Actually I was wrong, it's not a gamefaq console forum troll, excuse me for that, seeing his constant repeating that mod stealing is no theft, in more or less difficult words that the unintelligent like me don't understand I stand corrected he is in fact Pobatti aka MasterMagnus aka a dozen other account names, the console Jesus.

EDIT: and he even uses multiple accounts to talk to himself and pat himself on the back, LMAO too funny! Seriously some peeps should be locked up in a straight jacket and the key thrown away in a deep pit.
moddersrule1969 wrote: Now I'm hungry. Thanks.
BuffHamster wrote:

No, just an uninformed fool who insists on swimming against the tide of opinion, and law.

Whether you personally think that because it is free, therfore it can not be stolen, does not fly in the courts. It has been explained to you over and over again, it is illegal, that is, posting someone else's work and claiming it as your own is called plagiarism and in many countries, it is against the Law. You can be prosecuted. You can be sued.

Is that what you are supporting? Piracy? Theft of Intellectual Property? Are you advocating that it is perfectly okay to do this?

Is that the corner that you wish to paint yourself into?
_______________________________________________
@moddersrule1969: Burgers and fries on me. want Coke or Diet Coke?
iRodd wrote: Let's put this simply: I made this mod. It's mine. I do whatever I want with it. You don't have any rights to distribute it. No, I don't care whether it's good or it's bad, if people want it or not. The mod is mine, and I decide what to do with it. If I don't want console users to use it just because I'm idiot and I dislike them, or there actually are reasons for that, I'm the one who decides it. Capiche?
boomerizer wrote: Nope. Just that I'm not going to be held to a standard that the modders aren't going to be.

Wanna prove to me you're not against stolen mods? How bout we start taking down mods that contain stolen, plagiarized content. See a more recent post of mine that lists a couple of these mods. But if you've been on here long enough, a list doesn't really need to be compiled. You'll already know some.
kingtobbe wrote: @boomerizer:
What you don't seem to realize is that creative control of a mod, getting the credit for it is what leads many mod makers to keep chasing the content creating dragon so to speak. Their content is their baby. If you take that away from then and even invert those positive feelings that mod maker will eventually stop making content. Which will lead to very little content available for everyone including console users, especially since console users are unable to create content without also being a PC user.

I don't even think that mod pirating as some have called this is a fair comparison. Mods are not commercially produced by people who do work with money as incentive. Thus it's far more destructive to mod making than it is for game and software developers (and that is saying a lot as it can be quite devastating for smaller studios and devs).

Mods that have more files than a plugin require more work than simply a quick repack with XB1 appropriate compression of archives. For example, a simple retexture of say Kellogs armor quickly de-saturated (Ctrl+Shift+U, Ctrl+S - done!) in Photoshop to make it black (you know the first mods that appeared on Nexus when FO4 was new) consists of just one file that you normally on PC just have to put in ..\Data\Textures\Armor\Kellogg\ and you are good to go. For it to work on XB1 which requires that you pack files to BA2 archives in the Creation Kit you need to make a plugin (esp) and setup a material swap pointing to a custom material file (bgsm). And this without mentioning that a author might have to consider what resolution and DDS compression that works best on XB1 and other performance issues that may require a lot of tweaking to get just right.

This is just to have a very simple mod originally consisting of a single dds-file. Most mods are far more complex and thus require far more work to function relatively similar on XB1 as it did on PC.

Additional reasons could that I should mentioned are for example:

- You are using tidbits of content by another author(s) that you either by legal reasons or just out of courtesy need to ask for a new permission or try remaking it yourself. Most permissions requires a separate permission for you to upload it to another site. If someones steals your mod you will get in trouble with authors you have permissions to use work for on Nexus but not off-site.

- You are waiting for Bethesda to update their platform so it's not so damn buggy and limiting in it's modpage functions. 2000 characters are not enough to describe most mods especially considering that users can't see what files are included when they install it I personally would like to describe what files a mod adds/changes as this will help to manage load orders and mod compatibility. And more advanced XB1 users might want to know what exactly they are downloading.

- The CK is in open beta and are not very reliable, especially when it comes to uploading your mod to another platform, I've had files both missing from archives or unrelated files being added despite not selecting them in the file list prior to packaging a mod. Other people have way more serious problems and thus many are currently delayed in their work due to this.
- Some authors are cunts. While true it doesn't justify stealing from them. It only justify you not interacting with them in the community.

Conclusion, stealing mods are ruining for everyone. I've said it many times, to both authors and users, this is a asymmetrical symbiosis. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or potentially could at least. If you can't see that you haven't understood whats going on and should refrain from commenting on the issue further until you have, or just ignore it. This issue, seen from both users and authors perspective is simple, you are either part of the community or against it. And that is just without touching the legality of the issue which Bethesda has made very clear.
boomerizer wrote: @kingtobbe

Thank you. You've worded it in a way that I understand better than whats been flung my way today. You have effectively illustrated to me how it is.

I'm still on the 'if credit is given' side, then I don't rightly care. But now I'm not so.. what is the word here? Wanting? Looking for understanding.

I'm sure many other posters here will be relieved-- I'm out, for now. I need food. And to wreck some super mutants. And to ignore Preston Garvey some more.
HadToRegister wrote: @OP, in SIX YEARS, you've endorsed ONCE.

iRodd wrote: Ok, you're trying to convince me that I use stolen mods too. Cool, maybe I do, but that's pretty irrelevant. Now, tell me: why stealing mods wouldn't be bad? For example: I created a mod and a lot of people liked it, then they start asking for a console version. If it is possible, I have the time, the means and the will, I'll port it. Else, I could trust someone else to do so, just like a lot of armor mods out there. Or, for any reason, not port it at all. This is fine, you wouldn't even be able to use my mod if I hadn't uploaded it to the Nexus in the first place, to respect my wish is the least you can do.

You can't just download the mod and upload it somewhere else, don't you see? You're disrespecting the author, who you should be grateful to for creating the mod. You can't just think "Hey, he would like to see his mod being used everywhere, so I'll upload it elsewhere!", you aren't the author nor know how he feels and thinks. If you really want port a mod to a console, ask the author first. Stop thinking just about yourself, I can barely believe you're married that way.
Roblade wrote: The cook sure the hell does care who does and doesn't get the burger. We like to know when people like boomerizer are ordering. I think nexus should have a Banned from mod list for authors to reject users, keeping them from being able to download track or comment on a mod. or the authors entire collection of mods. As a Chef I have that, it is a little sign on my front glass, it says " I reserve the right to refuse service." I've only ever used that right twice, after all you can't refuse everyone and stay in business, but I've made some very public refusals, once tossed out a man for fondling one of my waitresses.
@boomerizer: What you, and many, many others, apparently don't seem to understand is, it all boils down to a matter of respect.

The legality arguments, laying out of the rules, the naming conventions, if it's called theft, piracy or what-have-you, and all the funny analogies people may come up with, are all fine and dandy, but... ultimately they don't matter.

What does matter is, plain and simply, these authors have no reason to be sharing their works with you, none, nada, at all, despite maybe their own willingness to share. Sharing is not part of the hobby, it's only an afterthought. They mod for themselves first and foremost, and then, out of the goodness of their heart or whatever, decide to go the extra mile and make it usable by others, share it, and maintain comments sections to offer support and perhaps also hear you out on suggestions or ideas for improvements. But at the end of the day "you", as in "the users", are not needed in the equation and can and will, from an author's point of view, very easily be eliminated again at any point in time, and it will only ever be a win to themselves, a loss only to you.

It doesn't matter "why" they decided to distribute and manage their mods in so-or-so ways, or what places they choose to have their mods available at or not. They created it, they decide, you "respect" it, period.

If you don't, and make yourself more of a bother than it's worth for them, which is where you're heading with your attitude, and everybody agreeing with it while not seeing the big picture in the background, you eliminate their desire to share with you. They don't have any reason to, it's not like you're giving them anything back for it, not even a thanks mostly, and they most definitely do not benefit from your usage of their mods. Instead it "costs" them, actually, time, effort, and in your and other people's cases also nerves and heartache a lot.

If you disrespect them and their work as atrociously as to actively support someone who "stole" their work, as you do, no matter what he's going to do with it, he took it without asking first, and that's blatant disrespect to those people, sometimes even doing something that's completely against their expressed wishes, then "you" are making yourself their enemy and in their eyes no longer deserving access to their mods.

With increasing numbers of "you" their desire to keep sharing rapidly dwindles. And as it's absolutely no loss at all to them to just stop, at one point sooner or later they will. And that's where you're heading, if you keep at it, increasingly less and less mods shared with the public, for the public is becoming more a bother than the effort is worth. And a gain it never was.

The number of authors speaking up against your mindset in here should be telling, but apparently it's not. Be assured though that the number you're seeing here is only the pinnacle of the iceberg, as they say, and a lot more even are just silently sitting back and watching you people now, then making their decision if publicly sharing is still "worth it" in their eyes or not. As we speak, and the things on Bethesda.net keep going on the way they are now for only a little longer, the balance is quickly tipping towards your deficit, and in numbers you can't even fathom in your weirdest nightmares. Keep up with this attitude of your's, stay a part of the problem instead of helping in coming to a solution, and they'll soon become reality.

You're happy to see mods finally coming to consoles? Guess again, they won't be for much longer, if people can't even be bothered to give at least the minimum amount of respect to those who create these mods. You think this situation is blown out of proportion? Think again, because these creators disagree. You think they shouldn't care as much as they do? Guess what, but they do! And they won't ever stop just because you say so.

This blatant disrespect thrown at these benevolent people in scales beyond your wildest imagination right now really cannot be taken by everybody, and by most others not endlessly so either. It gets to their heart, it turns them away, it makes them no longer "want" to share.

Is this what you're aiming for? 'Cause then, congratulations, you're achieving it.

Thanks for coming in and try to enter some empathy and reasoning to this individual.

At this point this is just becoming disgusting. No matter how obvious and strong the answers we give to him, he just keep answering with the same fallacies over and over and over.

I wish he was banned but at the end this doesn't fix anything since sadly, many children share his views. At this point I will just ignore his existence and any words he writes.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wasn't talking to this one individual exclusively though. The "you" I used in my post can also be directed at all the others in here who expressed a similar mindset or expressed their agreement with his, as damaging and detrimental as it is. If I reach only one and make them see the authors' side of the problem, my post will have served a purpose.

I have experience in talking with brick walls, the situation isn't new to me. My own brother is a prime example, the kind of who'd claim gravity'd work upwards and when shown a stone dropping down would call physics malfunctioning in the area or something. You can't talk reason into these.

They won't be banned until they break the terms, although the damage they currently are causing is actually rather massive. They don't see it like I do every day 24/7 discussed among the authors in their forums, how much in danger the very idea of mods for FO4 publicly shared already actually is thanks to them and their ilk, so I tried informing them and opening their eyes, but it mostly fell on deaf ears of course as usual.

The Vampire Dante wrote:
I've removed about as much of his comments from here as I felt neccessary, they were becoming needlessly distracting and antagonistic to many of the other participants in the topic.

Kalell wrote: I don't consider myself a mod author (I've only uploaded one mod of my own) but I have access to the mod author forum and they're not happy. What people don't seem to realize is when they finally get feed up no one will even hear about it, the mods will just start disappearing.

mlee3141 wrote: Nice going, boomerizer. You managed to convince me that the user community is beyond salvaging. I'm done sharing; there's nothing more to be said here.

phantompally76 wrote: Deleting someone's comments simply because the echo chamber doesn't agree with them is every bit as unethical as mod piracy, in my humble opinion.

None of boomerizer's comments were any more antagonistic or inflammatory than Dark0ne's OP. And while I didn't really agree with much of what boomerizer was saying, the behavior of his respondents definitely caused me to respect his thoughts just a little more than those attacking him, even if I don't agree with him. Members of this community are acting a hundred times worse than the #modgate pitchfork brigade at their strongest, all in the name of so-called righteousness.

The last time I checked, this was an open discussion...not an "I agree with you Dark0ne, you're doing a terrific job pissing off Bethesda and burning your (our) bridges" thread. If both sides of the argument aren't allowed to have their say without being moderated, then what's the point? This essay isn't even being circle jerked on reddit right now (which SHOULD tell absolutely everyone here something), so this is the only place to discuss the issue. And it's not a black and white issue. I know you want it to be. I wish it were. But it isn't.

This is a controversial topic, made a thousand times worse by a controversial essay, written in the heat of the moment with no consideration or regard for the consequences. So if the comments are open to only one side of the debate, please let the community know. Let ME know, so I can stop interrupting your echo chamber party with common sense and rationale.

@Phantom I agree that purging someone's comments can cause problems. However, I don't see how it is a problem in this case. Having a really loud voice promoting piracy and saying no rules apply probably isn't a good thing to have going on either.

Yeah, there have been some pretty rough comments on both sides. That doesn't make one individual's stance more reasonable or right just because there were rude people on the other side.

hangman04 · June 19, 2016

why father has returned is quite obvious... to make more money.... directly and indirectly....

they are well aware of the advantages that modding has provided for their pc version of the games, they want to replicate same results for their console version and last but not least they wanted a platform for a future paid modding implementation, where they could eliminate the middle man (valve - better split proceedings in 2 than in 3....).

u say that they don't give a damn about their platform problem, which i agree but i also think that they consider this a trial / alpha test run for the platform, and things for them will start when skyrim enhanced will be released, and also it will be the stepping stone for the next games: skyrim VI and Fallout 5 and who knows what other games they have in the workings which will probably be made for full integration in all major platforms through the beth.net ....

I also think that in the end... we will have 2 kinds of authors... pc modders and console modders.... maybe with some cross platform collaboration in the case of some big projects... It's hard to tell how things will unfold as future is not as clear as it used to be.

But my fear is that paid modding and the migration of professional teams from free sites like ours (nexus) to their platforms.... might be a loose loose scenario for everyone, but this may as well be my fear of change and everything will be just fine...

phantompally76 · June 19, 2016

In response to post #39525245. #39528920, #39529290, #39529630, #39533865, #39542225, #39543125 are all replies on the same post.

CliveBarker wrote:

In response to post #39505740. #39506695, #39506970, #39507980, #39508195, #39508525, #39508680, #39508790, #39509285, #39509720, #39510275, #39511760, #39511995, #39512010, #39512485, #39512650, #39512810, #39514085, #39514395, #39514900, #39515165, #39515295, #39515610, #39516210, #39516250, #39516375, #39518215, #39518480, #39520555, #39521910, #39522230, #39522760, #39524160 are all replies on the same post.

boomerizer wrote: OK, so, I read most of this. I know, TL;DR, I'm usually not one to skip, but most of this doesn't really apply to me. The thing with moderating etc, et al.

SO, I understand the whole stolen mods thing is bad. But, only "in a way."

Controversial, I know.

Here's why:
1) I've been using nexus probably on and off for the better part of 3 years-- though I don't really remember when I actually created my account to first mod Fallout: New Vegas-- I'm sure nobody cares anyway, so its not relevant. So I'll simply say: I don't know many modders by name.

Why is this relevant? Well, see, with 'stolen mods' on Xbox One (which I use, because I have a 2 Xbox Ones, and Xbox 360, a PS4, a /decent/ desktop computer, and 2 sub-par macbook pro laptops-- why duplicates? Well, I am married, and sometimes my wife and I like to play some games together.-- that last tidbit is irrelevant, but what /IS/ relevant is that I play many games, across many platforms. For example? I have Skyrim on Steam, I have Skyrim on the 360 (honestly, the only reason I still have the old thing). I play battlefield and the fallout games on both available platforms. Up until mods for console-- the only reason I played games on the PC was for that reason (if the game itself wasn't a PC exclusive.) Why? Console games are just far more easily accessible. I prefer to play them there, rather than worry about "will my computer run this?"

OK, so back on topic: I don't know mod authors by name. I mean, I do recognize some, like, say, Azar with hair mods. But that is pretty much, about it.

Why is this relevant? Because I just download them, and use them. I click like/favorite/endorse, whatever when I really like a mod, but other than that, I'm just a user. I appreciate all the mods created, sure, but I don't really look at the authors' names.

Here's the killer-- the part that will likely piss every mod author off.(but I mean well.)

I don't care if a mod has been stolen to be put up on the Xbox One site-- because to me, it is merely somebody throwing up a good mod onto a site when the author of the original PC mod hasn't taken the time of day to do it themselves. *gasp* I'm an douche for saying that, I know.

The biggest example I can say, of a mod I'd really like made (re)available is the NCR Veteran Ranger armor. I mean, it's the only mod I use on the PC that ISN'T readily available on Xbox. (I mean, I also have the Patriot Shield on PC and it isn't on xbox yet, but thats a story for another day.) Though, for a brief time,it had been, and the worst part is that it's not like the person who threw it on the console mod site claimed it was theirs. It was a mod that added several things-- and dudes, seriously, the description word limit doesn't really afford the uploaded to go into great detail.

Sure, the people that steal the mod and put it up on the console site could--SHOULD give credit where credit is due. But with that word limit, it really shouldn't be a priority. A description of what the mod is, and what it does, and how to use it should come first. THEN, if it can be done, sure, give credit where credit is due.

But mods are a free service, distributed free to a populace that I don't think really cares who makes the mods, just as long as they are made. I'd be more with you guys if the mods being stolen were being charged for. I know there is one dirtbag that was trying to encourage donations for stolen mods-- and yeah, OK, that is pathetic, and that guy (forgot the username) can rack off. But the way I see it, if its a mod that is on PC and isn't uploaded by the mod author due either to time, or they are a PC-Master-Race-r that doesn't think mods should be available to Console Peasants? Yeah, I don't care about how they feel-- its just someone making a good mod available to Xbox One.

Now, about this user unfriendliness on the bethesda.net/in-game mod browser?

Uh....what? I can use it just fine. Y for search. Use words to search for keywords. If mod is available. Click Download. How can it POSSIBLY be any easier to use?

In fact, I find it far easier to use than Nexus page or Nexus Mod Manager. Especially since with Skyrim mods, I ALSO need like 3 other programs to get certain mods to work-- LOOT, FNIS, SKSE. It's a nightmare most of the time, especially ENB's.

So, I guess what I mean to say is, if you care that much about stolen mods on Xbox One, be the first to make YOUR mods available on Xbox One before crying about your mod being stolen. Considering how easy that sounds...?

Makes me think most PC mod authors just don't give a flying stegosauras about the console community. When, y'know, at least in my case, I am both PC and Xbox. (I have a PS4 but, I really don't have anything worth repeated play.) I just want the mod available. I don't care who makes it available. Just that it is. And if it isn't available, or if a modder stops making it available for whatever reason, then, why even bother caring? If you care; make the effort to make it available. If you don't care to make it available for console, then don't cry out when someone else DOES make the effort to make it available. If the 'thief' is asking/demanding for payment/donations of some kind---or straight up saying "I made this! look at me! praise my awesome modding skillz!", yeah, OK, cry out all you want. But if its just a simple copy/paste upload with paraphrased description of the mod, why does it matter?

I don't know man, its all undue drama from both sides.

((Sorry I am all over the place. Rushed through, and without any real structure. Brain vomit.))

TLDR version:
Stop bitchin' if you don't make the effort to make it available. If you care enough to *censored*, but not enough to provide; why do it in the first place?
durge13 wrote: You don't seem to understand the stress put on modders when someone else starts distributing their mods. If that other person falls behind even a single version, it could mean the original author getting bug reports for things that have already been fixed, possibly leading to hours looking for the source of a bug that doesn't exist anymore. It has f*** all to do with availability to the masses (as you'd know if you read the whole post), modders can do what they want with their mods (within legal reason) and as always they have no reason to explain it to you why they do it that way. They could make it only available to people with the letter A at the start of their surname, and there is nothing you could say that would invalidate their choice to do so.

The fact is, stolen mods remove control from the original author, they may be changed slightly, they may be corrupted, out of date, and if an author has literally hundreds of thousands of people using their mod (like many on the Nexus do) then that can lead to unmanageable numbers of people asking about bugs that don't exist or features requests that have already been added.

It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be and I haven't covered even half the problems that can arise from people making their own stolen distributions of a mod.

Obviously this doesn't happen with every mod that is stolen but it happens enough that a blanket policy of banning those who distribute stolen mods (regardless of if they 'give credit' as it's really not about credit for most).
boomerizer wrote: Ok, well while I can understand that-- I don't like to download complex mods that require constant updates. Usually, just armor/clothing and weapons. I mean, how many times do you really need to update a helmet?

That said, you merely validated my own argument on author names. How does the original mod author get the number of people asking about bugs and s***? If ModAuthorA makes the mod, and ModTheifB steals the mod, and updates the mod then how do the people end up at ModAuthorA for support?

I mean, sounds to me, credit is very unnecessary if the users know where to go.
Ethreon wrote: What you boil down to - I don't give a damn what happens as long as I GET WHAT I WANT.

.. this is why aliens avoid us.
boomerizer wrote: Incorrect. Best analogy that I can come up with:

I buy a burger. I don't know the cooks name.
But I know the waiter or waitress.
I thank the waitress.
If she's nice, I tip the waitress.

The cook goes thankless.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the cook for providing me with a well seasoned and prepared meal. But in the end, all that matters is that it was provided. And the cook can live with that because he knows. He doesn't need the credit.
wsxcgy wrote: @bommerizer

but waitresses don't steal the burgers from the cook once they have made it. the cook gives the burger to the waitress so the consumer may enjoy it.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Even better boomer...

At your work place you finish a great job and take a break for a coffee and a snack.
Mean time a another person take your hard work and rush to the boss, bragging about his success!
He will be appreciated by a lot of people, maybe promoted, maybe the boss will give him a new office.

When you will return from your break, you will also have a reward, a new office... next to the toilet, because you have not done well your work and you will have to do all the dirty work from now on.

How you will feel it now ?!
boomerizer wrote: No, the cook leaves it on the counter/hotplate-- the cook doesn't care who ordered the burger, or even who gets the burger. He doesn't know where its going.

Then, the waitress delivers it to the table. But maybe, I ordered it, but then slid the plate to my wife or daughter, or a homeless person I invited to my table because it is payday and I felt generous.

In this case, the mod author uploads the mod to the internet, for everyone to download.

Now, I can download it from the original site, or I can download it from a ("stolen") redistribution-- it makes little difference to me. Because I don't look at author names. I merely check to make sure the download isn't dirty.
boomerizer wrote: Look, I'm not saying credit shouldn't be given where credit is due, in redistributed mods.

What I am mostly trying to convey is that unless the stolen mod is nefarious in nature, and the person is going out of their way to claim is as their own, it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds to me like mod authors are taking their works farrrrrrr toooooo seriously. And if thats how they feel, then perhaps they should make the effort to write their name in the mod-- there are plenty of mods that bring up pop up windows in the game "Welcome to FOCOM" for example. Can just say "This mod made by <> and distributed by <>".

I wouldn't leave my work unlabelled.

Oh, and a thought I just had:
At a job, I'd be getting paid. Money.

Here, its volunteer work. Nobody is really benefiting from 'stealing' a mod. I mean, seriously. In the best case scenario, the mod author gets more notoriety, because users search for the mod name (ie. Commonwealth Cuts, I had to search for because I couldn't find it on the nexus after downloading it on Xbox One). Because to be honest, I don't know the author name of Commonwealth Cuts.

The worst case, the mod author has to say "sorry, the only way I can fix your problem is if you uninstall THAT mod, and give me a bit of time to upload MY original version so that you may continue to enjoy my work."

So. Yeah.

boomerizer wrote: I also can't speak for how mods work, I know.

But I know that adding new 'physical' assets like armor, weapons, clothes, new workshop items-- those shouldn't really require tweaking between PC and Xbox. Fallout 4 is Fallout 4 either way you look at it.

Complex mods like quest lines, sure I can see where there might be some trouble. And worse, graphical enhancements-- yeah I get it. It's not just a simple port. But without only 2GB to play with, my only concern is adding physical assets, rather than trying to make the game look better-- because FO4 already looks pretty dang good. I wish I could download more than I have, though-- I sure would like to see quest mods like Skryims Falskaar and Lost City... but one of those mods is 2GB or more on its own.

Besides, you've created a mod, put a lot of work into it, and then uploaded it online-- your involvement is basically done. It's not like you have to worry about mass producing a physical object. Yet, you've made one product that now ANYONE can get for themselves. And if you've done your job right, there should be no need to fix anything.

You have no way of knowing if it works on console unless you own one yourself, upload your mod yourself, and test it, yourself. A lot of work that you might not want to do, but someone else already has? How does that add stress to you?

Nemesis8727 wrote: I agree with 95% of the things you say. The last 5% is the stuff I forgot after I read it.
I have created stuff in the past and I don't care how people use it or how they get it.
If they get it on some site no one uses (bethesda.net) where they wont thank me anyway if I took the time to upload it.
Or if they got it here on nexus, I don't care.
I can understand if creators do care but I think its just waste of energy to go complain on a site no one uses.
If I download a mod on nexus I look on the info, how to, FAQ and if I'm impressed I might look over the authors other mods but on a console I just want to press download.
EffELOfficial wrote: Wow. Flamewar. Right there. Your Burger analogy is more like the relationship between Mod Authors and the Nexus. The Nexus being the Waitress. Only difference is that the Cook's name is pasted on the plate, there.

Holy crap, that's an excellent idea, restaurants should do that.
Brabbit1987 wrote: I pretty much agree as well. I think this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is. In fact, I would say the over reaction just made the situation worse.

I also, think the easiest way to prevent this is to upload your mod before anyone else does.

Now the only reason I agree is because it's pretty much the only thing that can be done at the moment, unless you want to go through the process of taking down your mod uploaded by someone else.

I do think people should not be stealing. Let's say for example, the mod author doesn't want to make their mod available to consoles. I believe that should be respected. However, that is not the way things tend to work when it comes to things like this. Not everyone respects one another, and that honestly should be obvious.

It sort of similar in a way to piracy. Yes, it sucks, but as a developer you should be thinking ahead and how you will deal with it. I myself, would upload my own game so people can torrent it. I am more about getting my game out there, than I am for trying to make every last penny I possibly can.

So if you are a mod developer and you decide not to release it on consoles, you have to expect someone is going to do it for you, whether you like it or not. At least for now.

Bethesda has something in the works to lessen these issues. I doubt it will stop it entirely though.
boomerizer wrote: Maybe not in the manner that I think you mean. In a lot of restaurants, there are multiple people that work on your order. I used to work in a kitchen, at a resort-- up to the entire kitchen might have something to do with your order. One guy grills the meat, another one assembles it, someone else makes the sides, another person might make another side.... that, and some kitchen employees don't stick around long enough to make plastering a name on a plate cost effective. Notice how I'm getting into monetary value, now?

Mod authors don't have that concern, now do they? Money. Their product (mods) is free. And you can't steal that which is free.
boomerizer wrote: woah, brabbit. wish I'd seen this before posting to the one above you.

Right, there should be steps taken to prevent it, but like piracy, it can't be fully protected against. I mean, these state-of-the-art pirated copies of stuff are often still released even before the actual product is released. With games, online features are often forgone since that is the only way to verify a legit copy. Online authentication. Can't do that with mods, though-- as they are acquired digitally. How would you stop mod theft?

You can't stop thieves. In order to do that, you'd have to remove either the desire, or the opportunity. The only way to remove the opportunity is to not upload the mod at all. So you have to focus on deterring the desire to 'steal'. Best way to do that, is to be the first to upload your mod to the new medium. And if you don't like consoles, or just don't have the time, then you sort of have to concede the point.
Ethreon wrote: <<I'm ok with theft as long as I get what I want and the victim is given credit. What's the harm after all, I get what I want, everyone is happy.>>

:rolleyes:
boomerizer wrote: It's not theft because this s*** is free. There is no physical loss. You still have the mod page. You still have the mod assets on your computer. Oh my god, the pain.
Ethreon wrote: Please go back to the woods.

OP disagrees with you in clear terms.
Mod makers disagree with you in clear terms.
Beth disagrees with you in clear terms.
Law disagrees with you.
Common sense does too.
Billy1969 wrote: boomerizer, you're obviously a gamefaq console forum cesspool troll, please take your filth back there, k thx.
Brabbit1987 wrote: @Billy1969

Is name calling really necessary?
boomerizer wrote: Brabbit: Of course, it is necessary for the unintelligent to resort to name-calling, when they don't have an argument that can stand on its own merit.

Never been to GameFaq. At least, not knowingly.

I actually spend most of my time playing and enjoying games. In fact, before my first post here, today, I was playing Fallout 4. On my PC.

I love Bethesda games so much I own them on PC/Steam AND Xbox 360/One. I buy the games twice. Because I'm a gamer. (And because I'm married and sometimes play with-and-or-at-the-same-time-as my wife.)(And because I might have a gaming problem.)

BuffHamster wrote: What Ethreon said is quite true.

Try this logic on for size: If the mod authors are disrespected and the get angry enough with their content being bootlegged, "pffft! there goes your 'free' mods" ie; no longer available to the public. You now have to pay for them with Bitcoin."

Epic Fail in Logic. If the burger was not cooked well, or the meal was ice cold when it reached you, or was not prepared to your liking:
Do you still tip? Yes?, what a rube.
Do you complain to the wait staff? Awesome, where does that complaint go? Ah yes, the wait staff reports back to the kitchen staff.
Tips? Guess what? They are usually shared with the kitchen staff, so, bad preparation and poorly cleared tables = no tips, and later, a decline in the customer base followed by the establishment shutting down and everyone on the street.

You really need to think the apathy thing through here, rather than use superficial excuses for that feeling of entitlement. The Mod Authors owe you nothing, you on the other hand owe them, at the least, a modicum of thankful respect for creating a product that you obviously do not have the ability to do yourself.
EDIT:

Another epic fail in logic. Alternative to "uploading it first", how about "not uploading at all"?, or uploading content that turns your console into a doorstop?
Mods that use external requirements, such as Fallout 4 Script Extender, will not run on the console, ... accept it.
There are many ways the mod author can prevent their work from being pirated, and many have already taken this route.
boomerizer wrote: You're assuming the burger is ill prepared.

The mods I download are typically complete, and not broken-- as I've yet to download an incomplete or broken mod on my console. (well, I've downloaded a Hide Pipboy one that didn't work, but the answer to that was simply Disable and Delete.)

If something is broken or does not work, I disable or uninstall as appropriate, and leave it at that. If its a mod I really like or want to see, I check on it later. I don't harass the author. I just wait for it to be usable.

But that is because I know that modding can be risky. It can break the savegame, or even the game itself. If something doesn't work right, I move on. If my game gets broke, I reinstall and move on.

What a monster I am.
Billy1969 wrote: Actually I was wrong, it's not a gamefaq console forum troll, excuse me for that, seeing his constant repeating that mod stealing is no theft, in more or less difficult words that the unintelligent like me don't understand I stand corrected he is in fact Pobatti aka MasterMagnus aka a dozen other account names, the console Jesus.

EDIT: and he even uses multiple accounts to talk to himself and pat himself on the back, LMAO too funny! Seriously some peeps should be locked up in a straight jacket and the key thrown away in a deep pit.
moddersrule1969 wrote: Now I'm hungry. Thanks.
BuffHamster wrote:

No, just an uninformed fool who insists on swimming against the tide of opinion, and law.

Whether you personally think that because it is free, therfore it can not be stolen, does not fly in the courts. It has been explained to you over and over again, it is illegal, that is, posting someone else's work and claiming it as your own is called plagiarism and in many countries, it is against the Law. You can be prosecuted. You can be sued.

Is that what you are supporting? Piracy? Theft of Intellectual Property? Are you advocating that it is perfectly okay to do this?

Is that the corner that you wish to paint yourself into?
_______________________________________________
@moddersrule1969: Burgers and fries on me. want Coke or Diet Coke?
iRodd wrote: Let's put this simply: I made this mod. It's mine. I do whatever I want with it. You don't have any rights to distribute it. No, I don't care whether it's good or it's bad, if people want it or not. The mod is mine, and I decide what to do with it. If I don't want console users to use it just because I'm idiot and I dislike them, or there actually are reasons for that, I'm the one who decides it. Capiche?
boomerizer wrote: Nope. Just that I'm not going to be held to a standard that the modders aren't going to be.

Wanna prove to me you're not against stolen mods? How bout we start taking down mods that contain stolen, plagiarized content. See a more recent post of mine that lists a couple of these mods. But if you've been on here long enough, a list doesn't really need to be compiled. You'll already know some.
kingtobbe wrote: @boomerizer:
What you don't seem to realize is that creative control of a mod, getting the credit for it is what leads many mod makers to keep chasing the content creating dragon so to speak. Their content is their baby. If you take that away from then and even invert those positive feelings that mod maker will eventually stop making content. Which will lead to very little content available for everyone including console users, especially since console users are unable to create content without also being a PC user.

I don't even think that mod pirating as some have called this is a fair comparison. Mods are not commercially produced by people who do work with money as incentive. Thus it's far more destructive to mod making than it is for game and software developers (and that is saying a lot as it can be quite devastating for smaller studios and devs).

Mods that have more files than a plugin require more work than simply a quick repack with XB1 appropriate compression of archives. For example, a simple retexture of say Kellogs armor quickly de-saturated (Ctrl+Shift+U, Ctrl+S - done!) in Photoshop to make it black (you know the first mods that appeared on Nexus when FO4 was new) consists of just one file that you normally on PC just have to put in ..\Data\Textures\Armor\Kellogg\ and you are good to go. For it to work on XB1 which requires that you pack files to BA2 archives in the Creation Kit you need to make a plugin (esp) and setup a material swap pointing to a custom material file (bgsm). And this without mentioning that a author might have to consider what resolution and DDS compression that works best on XB1 and other performance issues that may require a lot of tweaking to get just right.

This is just to have a very simple mod originally consisting of a single dds-file. Most mods are far more complex and thus require far more work to function relatively similar on XB1 as it did on PC.

Additional reasons could that I should mentioned are for example:

- You are using tidbits of content by another author(s) that you either by legal reasons or just out of courtesy need to ask for a new permission or try remaking it yourself. Most permissions requires a separate permission for you to upload it to another site. If someones steals your mod you will get in trouble with authors you have permissions to use work for on Nexus but not off-site.

- You are waiting for Bethesda to update their platform so it's not so damn buggy and limiting in it's modpage functions. 2000 characters are not enough to describe most mods especially considering that users can't see what files are included when they install it I personally would like to describe what files a mod adds/changes as this will help to manage load orders and mod compatibility. And more advanced XB1 users might want to know what exactly they are downloading.

- The CK is in open beta and are not very reliable, especially when it comes to uploading your mod to another platform, I've had files both missing from archives or unrelated files being added despite not selecting them in the file list prior to packaging a mod. Other people have way more serious problems and thus many are currently delayed in their work due to this.
- Some authors are cunts. While true it doesn't justify stealing from them. It only justify you not interacting with them in the community.

Conclusion, stealing mods are ruining for everyone. I've said it many times, to both authors and users, this is a asymmetrical symbiosis. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or potentially could at least. If you can't see that you haven't understood whats going on and should refrain from commenting on the issue further until you have, or just ignore it. This issue, seen from both users and authors perspective is simple, you are either part of the community or against it. And that is just without touching the legality of the issue which Bethesda has made very clear.
boomerizer wrote: @kingtobbe

Thank you. You've worded it in a way that I understand better than whats been flung my way today. You have effectively illustrated to me how it is.

I'm still on the 'if credit is given' side, then I don't rightly care. But now I'm not so.. what is the word here? Wanting? Looking for understanding.

I'm sure many other posters here will be relieved-- I'm out, for now. I need food. And to wreck some super mutants. And to ignore Preston Garvey some more.
HadToRegister wrote: @OP, in SIX YEARS, you've endorsed ONCE.

iRodd wrote: Ok, you're trying to convince me that I use stolen mods too. Cool, maybe I do, but that's pretty irrelevant. Now, tell me: why stealing mods wouldn't be bad? For example: I created a mod and a lot of people liked it, then they start asking for a console version. If it is possible, I have the time, the means and the will, I'll port it. Else, I could trust someone else to do so, just like a lot of armor mods out there. Or, for any reason, not port it at all. This is fine, you wouldn't even be able to use my mod if I hadn't uploaded it to the Nexus in the first place, to respect my wish is the least you can do.

You can't just download the mod and upload it somewhere else, don't you see? You're disrespecting the author, who you should be grateful to for creating the mod. You can't just think "Hey, he would like to see his mod being used everywhere, so I'll upload it elsewhere!", you aren't the author nor know how he feels and thinks. If you really want port a mod to a console, ask the author first. Stop thinking just about yourself, I can barely believe you're married that way.
Roblade wrote: The cook sure the hell does care who does and doesn't get the burger. We like to know when people like boomerizer are ordering. I think nexus should have a Banned from mod list for authors to reject users, keeping them from being able to download track or comment on a mod. or the authors entire collection of mods. As a Chef I have that, it is a little sign on my front glass, it says " I reserve the right to refuse service." I've only ever used that right twice, after all you can't refuse everyone and stay in business, but I've made some very public refusals, once tossed out a man for fondling one of my waitresses.
@boomerizer: What you, and many, many others, apparently don't seem to understand is, it all boils down to a matter of respect.

The legality arguments, laying out of the rules, the naming conventions, if it's called theft, piracy or what-have-you, and all the funny analogies people may come up with, are all fine and dandy, but... ultimately they don't matter.

What does matter is, plain and simply, these authors have no reason to be sharing their works with you, none, nada, at all, despite maybe their own willingness to share. Sharing is not part of the hobby, it's only an afterthought. They mod for themselves first and foremost, and then, out of the goodness of their heart or whatever, decide to go the extra mile and make it usable by others, share it, and maintain comments sections to offer support and perhaps also hear you out on suggestions or ideas for improvements. But at the end of the day "you", as in "the users", are not needed in the equation and can and will, from an author's point of view, very easily be eliminated again at any point in time, and it will only ever be a win to themselves, a loss only to you.

It doesn't matter "why" they decided to distribute and manage their mods in so-or-so ways, or what places they choose to have their mods available at or not. They created it, they decide, you "respect" it, period.

If you don't, and make yourself more of a bother than it's worth for them, which is where you're heading with your attitude, and everybody agreeing with it while not seeing the big picture in the background, you eliminate their desire to share with you. They don't have any reason to, it's not like you're giving them anything back for it, not even a thanks mostly, and they most definitely do not benefit from your usage of their mods. Instead it "costs" them, actually, time, effort, and in your and other people's cases also nerves and heartache a lot.

If you disrespect them and their work as atrociously as to actively support someone who "stole" their work, as you do, no matter what he's going to do with it, he took it without asking first, and that's blatant disrespect to those people, sometimes even doing something that's completely against their expressed wishes, then "you" are making yourself their enemy and in their eyes no longer deserving access to their mods.

With increasing numbers of "you" their desire to keep sharing rapidly dwindles. And as it's absolutely no loss at all to them to just stop, at one point sooner or later they will. And that's where you're heading, if you keep at it, increasingly less and less mods shared with the public, for the public is becoming more a bother than the effort is worth. And a gain it never was.

The number of authors speaking up against your mindset in here should be telling, but apparently it's not. Be assured though that the number you're seeing here is only the pinnacle of the iceberg, as they say, and a lot more even are just silently sitting back and watching you people now, then making their decision if publicly sharing is still "worth it" in their eyes or not. As we speak, and the things on Bethesda.net keep going on the way they are now for only a little longer, the balance is quickly tipping towards your deficit, and in numbers you can't even fathom in your weirdest nightmares. Keep up with this attitude of your's, stay a part of the problem instead of helping in coming to a solution, and they'll soon become reality.

You're happy to see mods finally coming to consoles? Guess again, they won't be for much longer, if people can't even be bothered to give at least the minimum amount of respect to those who create these mods. You think this situation is blown out of proportion? Think again, because these creators disagree. You think they shouldn't care as much as they do? Guess what, but they do! And they won't ever stop just because you say so.

This blatant disrespect thrown at these benevolent people in scales beyond your wildest imagination right now really cannot be taken by everybody, and by most others not endlessly so either. It gets to their heart, it turns them away, it makes them no longer "want" to share.

Is this what you're aiming for? 'Cause then, congratulations, you're achieving it.

Thanks for coming in and try to enter some empathy and reasoning to this individual.

At this point this is just becoming disgusting. No matter how obvious and strong the answers we give to him, he just keep answering with the same fallacies over and over and over.

I wish he was banned but at the end this doesn't fix anything since sadly, many children share his views. At this point I will just ignore his existence and any words he writes.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wasn't talking to this one individual exclusively though. The "you" I used in my post can also be directed at all the others in here who expressed a similar mindset or expressed their agreement with his, as damaging and detrimental as it is. If I reach only one and make them see the authors' side of the problem, my post will have served a purpose.

I have experience in talking with brick walls, the situation isn't new to me. My own brother is a prime example, the kind of who'd claim gravity'd work upwards and when shown a stone dropping down would call physics malfunctioning in the area or something. You can't talk reason into these.

They won't be banned until they break the terms, although the damage they currently are causing is actually rather massive. They don't see it like I do every day 24/7 discussed among the authors in their forums, how much in danger the very idea of mods for FO4 publicly shared already actually is thanks to them and their ilk, so I tried informing them and opening their eyes, but it mostly fell on deaf ears of course as usual.

The Vampire Dante wrote:
I've removed about as much of his comments from here as I felt neccessary, they were becoming needlessly distracting and antagonistic to many of the other participants in the topic.

Kalell wrote: I don't consider myself a mod author (I've only uploaded one mod of my own) but I have access to the mod author forum and they're not happy. What people don't seem to realize is when they finally get feed up no one will even hear about it, the mods will just start disappearing.

mlee3141 wrote: Nice going, boomerizer. You managed to convince me that the user community is beyond salvaging. I'm done sharing; there's nothing more to be said here.

phantompally76 wrote: Deleting someone's comments simply because the echo chamber doesn't agree with them is every bit as unethical as mod piracy, in my humble opinion.

None of boomerizer's comments were any more antagonistic or inflammatory than Dark0ne's OP. And while I didn't really agree with much of what boomerizer was saying, the behavior of his respondents definitely caused me to respect his thoughts just a little more than those attacking him, even if I don't agree with him. Members of this community are acting a hundred times worse than the #modgate pitchfork brigade at their strongest, all in the name of so-called righteousness.

The last time I checked, this was an open discussion...not an "I agree with you Dark0ne, you're doing a terrific job pissing off Bethesda and burning your (our) bridges" thread. If both sides of the argument aren't allowed to have their say without being moderated, then what's the point? This essay isn't even being circle jerked on reddit right now (which SHOULD tell absolutely everyone here something), so this is the only place to discuss the issue. And it's not a black and white issue. I know you want it to be. I wish it were. But it isn't.

This is a controversial topic, made a thousand times worse by a controversial essay, written in the heat of the moment with no consideration or regard for the consequences. So if the comments are open to only one side of the debate, please let the community know. Let ME know, so I can stop interrupting your echo chamber party with common sense and rationale.

Kraynic wrote: @Phantom I agree that purging someone's comments can cause problems. However, I don't see how it is a problem in this case. Having a really loud voice promoting piracy and saying no rules apply probably isn't a good thing to have going on either.

Yeah, there have been some pretty rough comments on both sides. That doesn't make one individual's stance more reasonable or right just because there were rude people on the other side.

Regardless, that's not how an open discussion works.

Again, if this is not an open discussion, then say so.

wulfharth · June 19, 2016

In response to post #39525245. #39528920, #39529290, #39529630, #39533865, #39542225, #39543125, #39543345 are all replies on the same post.

CliveBarker wrote:

In response to post #39505740. #39506695, #39506970, #39507980, #39508195, #39508525, #39508680, #39508790, #39509285, #39509720, #39510275, #39511760, #39511995, #39512010, #39512485, #39512650, #39512810, #39514085, #39514395, #39514900, #39515165, #39515295, #39515610, #39516210, #39516250, #39516375, #39518215, #39518480, #39520555, #39521910, #39522230, #39522760, #39524160 are all replies on the same post.

boomerizer wrote: OK, so, I read most of this. I know, TL;DR, I'm usually not one to skip, but most of this doesn't really apply to me. The thing with moderating etc, et al.

SO, I understand the whole stolen mods thing is bad. But, only "in a way."

Controversial, I know.

Here's why:
1) I've been using nexus probably on and off for the better part of 3 years-- though I don't really remember when I actually created my account to first mod Fallout: New Vegas-- I'm sure nobody cares anyway, so its not relevant. So I'll simply say: I don't know many modders by name.

Why is this relevant? Well, see, with 'stolen mods' on Xbox One (which I use, because I have a 2 Xbox Ones, and Xbox 360, a PS4, a /decent/ desktop computer, and 2 sub-par macbook pro laptops-- why duplicates? Well, I am married, and sometimes my wife and I like to play some games together.-- that last tidbit is irrelevant, but what /IS/ relevant is that I play many games, across many platforms. For example? I have Skyrim on Steam, I have Skyrim on the 360 (honestly, the only reason I still have the old thing). I play battlefield and the fallout games on both available platforms. Up until mods for console-- the only reason I played games on the PC was for that reason (if the game itself wasn't a PC exclusive.) Why? Console games are just far more easily accessible. I prefer to play them there, rather than worry about "will my computer run this?"

OK, so back on topic: I don't know mod authors by name. I mean, I do recognize some, like, say, Azar with hair mods. But that is pretty much, about it.

Why is this relevant? Because I just download them, and use them. I click like/favorite/endorse, whatever when I really like a mod, but other than that, I'm just a user. I appreciate all the mods created, sure, but I don't really look at the authors' names.

Here's the killer-- the part that will likely piss every mod author off.(but I mean well.)

I don't care if a mod has been stolen to be put up on the Xbox One site-- because to me, it is merely somebody throwing up a good mod onto a site when the author of the original PC mod hasn't taken the time of day to do it themselves. *gasp* I'm an douche for saying that, I know.

The biggest example I can say, of a mod I'd really like made (re)available is the NCR Veteran Ranger armor. I mean, it's the only mod I use on the PC that ISN'T readily available on Xbox. (I mean, I also have the Patriot Shield on PC and it isn't on xbox yet, but thats a story for another day.) Though, for a brief time,it had been, and the worst part is that it's not like the person who threw it on the console mod site claimed it was theirs. It was a mod that added several things-- and dudes, seriously, the description word limit doesn't really afford the uploaded to go into great detail.

Sure, the people that steal the mod and put it up on the console site could--SHOULD give credit where credit is due. But with that word limit, it really shouldn't be a priority. A description of what the mod is, and what it does, and how to use it should come first. THEN, if it can be done, sure, give credit where credit is due.

But mods are a free service, distributed free to a populace that I don't think really cares who makes the mods, just as long as they are made. I'd be more with you guys if the mods being stolen were being charged for. I know there is one dirtbag that was trying to encourage donations for stolen mods-- and yeah, OK, that is pathetic, and that guy (forgot the username) can rack off. But the way I see it, if its a mod that is on PC and isn't uploaded by the mod author due either to time, or they are a PC-Master-Race-r that doesn't think mods should be available to Console Peasants? Yeah, I don't care about how they feel-- its just someone making a good mod available to Xbox One.

Now, about this user unfriendliness on the bethesda.net/in-game mod browser?

Uh....what? I can use it just fine. Y for search. Use words to search for keywords. If mod is available. Click Download. How can it POSSIBLY be any easier to use?

In fact, I find it far easier to use than Nexus page or Nexus Mod Manager. Especially since with Skyrim mods, I ALSO need like 3 other programs to get certain mods to work-- LOOT, FNIS, SKSE. It's a nightmare most of the time, especially ENB's.

So, I guess what I mean to say is, if you care that much about stolen mods on Xbox One, be the first to make YOUR mods available on Xbox One before crying about your mod being stolen. Considering how easy that sounds...?

Makes me think most PC mod authors just don't give a flying stegosauras about the console community. When, y'know, at least in my case, I am both PC and Xbox. (I have a PS4 but, I really don't have anything worth repeated play.) I just want the mod available. I don't care who makes it available. Just that it is. And if it isn't available, or if a modder stops making it available for whatever reason, then, why even bother caring? If you care; make the effort to make it available. If you don't care to make it available for console, then don't cry out when someone else DOES make the effort to make it available. If the 'thief' is asking/demanding for payment/donations of some kind---or straight up saying "I made this! look at me! praise my awesome modding skillz!", yeah, OK, cry out all you want. But if its just a simple copy/paste upload with paraphrased description of the mod, why does it matter?

I don't know man, its all undue drama from both sides.

((Sorry I am all over the place. Rushed through, and without any real structure. Brain vomit.))

TLDR version:
Stop bitchin' if you don't make the effort to make it available. If you care enough to *censored*, but not enough to provide; why do it in the first place?
durge13 wrote: You don't seem to understand the stress put on modders when someone else starts distributing their mods. If that other person falls behind even a single version, it could mean the original author getting bug reports for things that have already been fixed, possibly leading to hours looking for the source of a bug that doesn't exist anymore. It has f*** all to do with availability to the masses (as you'd know if you read the whole post), modders can do what they want with their mods (within legal reason) and as always they have no reason to explain it to you why they do it that way. They could make it only available to people with the letter A at the start of their surname, and there is nothing you could say that would invalidate their choice to do so.

The fact is, stolen mods remove control from the original author, they may be changed slightly, they may be corrupted, out of date, and if an author has literally hundreds of thousands of people using their mod (like many on the Nexus do) then that can lead to unmanageable numbers of people asking about bugs that don't exist or features requests that have already been added.

It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be and I haven't covered even half the problems that can arise from people making their own stolen distributions of a mod.

Obviously this doesn't happen with every mod that is stolen but it happens enough that a blanket policy of banning those who distribute stolen mods (regardless of if they 'give credit' as it's really not about credit for most).
boomerizer wrote: Ok, well while I can understand that-- I don't like to download complex mods that require constant updates. Usually, just armor/clothing and weapons. I mean, how many times do you really need to update a helmet?

That said, you merely validated my own argument on author names. How does the original mod author get the number of people asking about bugs and s***? If ModAuthorA makes the mod, and ModTheifB steals the mod, and updates the mod then how do the people end up at ModAuthorA for support?

I mean, sounds to me, credit is very unnecessary if the users know where to go.
Ethreon wrote: What you boil down to - I don't give a damn what happens as long as I GET WHAT I WANT.

.. this is why aliens avoid us.
boomerizer wrote: Incorrect. Best analogy that I can come up with:

I buy a burger. I don't know the cooks name.
But I know the waiter or waitress.
I thank the waitress.
If she's nice, I tip the waitress.

The cook goes thankless.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the cook for providing me with a well seasoned and prepared meal. But in the end, all that matters is that it was provided. And the cook can live with that because he knows. He doesn't need the credit.
wsxcgy wrote: @bommerizer

but waitresses don't steal the burgers from the cook once they have made it. the cook gives the burger to the waitress so the consumer may enjoy it.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Even better boomer...

At your work place you finish a great job and take a break for a coffee and a snack.
Mean time a another person take your hard work and rush to the boss, bragging about his success!
He will be appreciated by a lot of people, maybe promoted, maybe the boss will give him a new office.

When you will return from your break, you will also have a reward, a new office... next to the toilet, because you have not done well your work and you will have to do all the dirty work from now on.

How you will feel it now ?!
boomerizer wrote: No, the cook leaves it on the counter/hotplate-- the cook doesn't care who ordered the burger, or even who gets the burger. He doesn't know where its going.

Then, the waitress delivers it to the table. But maybe, I ordered it, but then slid the plate to my wife or daughter, or a homeless person I invited to my table because it is payday and I felt generous.

In this case, the mod author uploads the mod to the internet, for everyone to download.

Now, I can download it from the original site, or I can download it from a ("stolen") redistribution-- it makes little difference to me. Because I don't look at author names. I merely check to make sure the download isn't dirty.
boomerizer wrote: Look, I'm not saying credit shouldn't be given where credit is due, in redistributed mods.

What I am mostly trying to convey is that unless the stolen mod is nefarious in nature, and the person is going out of their way to claim is as their own, it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds to me like mod authors are taking their works farrrrrrr toooooo seriously. And if thats how they feel, then perhaps they should make the effort to write their name in the mod-- there are plenty of mods that bring up pop up windows in the game "Welcome to FOCOM" for example. Can just say "This mod made by <> and distributed by <>".

I wouldn't leave my work unlabelled.

Oh, and a thought I just had:
At a job, I'd be getting paid. Money.

Here, its volunteer work. Nobody is really benefiting from 'stealing' a mod. I mean, seriously. In the best case scenario, the mod author gets more notoriety, because users search for the mod name (ie. Commonwealth Cuts, I had to search for because I couldn't find it on the nexus after downloading it on Xbox One). Because to be honest, I don't know the author name of Commonwealth Cuts.

The worst case, the mod author has to say "sorry, the only way I can fix your problem is if you uninstall THAT mod, and give me a bit of time to upload MY original version so that you may continue to enjoy my work."

So. Yeah.

boomerizer wrote: I also can't speak for how mods work, I know.

But I know that adding new 'physical' assets like armor, weapons, clothes, new workshop items-- those shouldn't really require tweaking between PC and Xbox. Fallout 4 is Fallout 4 either way you look at it.

Complex mods like quest lines, sure I can see where there might be some trouble. And worse, graphical enhancements-- yeah I get it. It's not just a simple port. But without only 2GB to play with, my only concern is adding physical assets, rather than trying to make the game look better-- because FO4 already looks pretty dang good. I wish I could download more than I have, though-- I sure would like to see quest mods like Skryims Falskaar and Lost City... but one of those mods is 2GB or more on its own.

Besides, you've created a mod, put a lot of work into it, and then uploaded it online-- your involvement is basically done. It's not like you have to worry about mass producing a physical object. Yet, you've made one product that now ANYONE can get for themselves. And if you've done your job right, there should be no need to fix anything.

You have no way of knowing if it works on console unless you own one yourself, upload your mod yourself, and test it, yourself. A lot of work that you might not want to do, but someone else already has? How does that add stress to you?

Nemesis8727 wrote: I agree with 95% of the things you say. The last 5% is the stuff I forgot after I read it.
I have created stuff in the past and I don't care how people use it or how they get it.
If they get it on some site no one uses (bethesda.net) where they wont thank me anyway if I took the time to upload it.
Or if they got it here on nexus, I don't care.
I can understand if creators do care but I think its just waste of energy to go complain on a site no one uses.
If I download a mod on nexus I look on the info, how to, FAQ and if I'm impressed I might look over the authors other mods but on a console I just want to press download.
EffELOfficial wrote: Wow. Flamewar. Right there. Your Burger analogy is more like the relationship between Mod Authors and the Nexus. The Nexus being the Waitress. Only difference is that the Cook's name is pasted on the plate, there.

Holy crap, that's an excellent idea, restaurants should do that.
Brabbit1987 wrote: I pretty much agree as well. I think this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is. In fact, I would say the over reaction just made the situation worse.

I also, think the easiest way to prevent this is to upload your mod before anyone else does.

Now the only reason I agree is because it's pretty much the only thing that can be done at the moment, unless you want to go through the process of taking down your mod uploaded by someone else.

I do think people should not be stealing. Let's say for example, the mod author doesn't want to make their mod available to consoles. I believe that should be respected. However, that is not the way things tend to work when it comes to things like this. Not everyone respects one another, and that honestly should be obvious.

It sort of similar in a way to piracy. Yes, it sucks, but as a developer you should be thinking ahead and how you will deal with it. I myself, would upload my own game so people can torrent it. I am more about getting my game out there, than I am for trying to make every last penny I possibly can.

So if you are a mod developer and you decide not to release it on consoles, you have to expect someone is going to do it for you, whether you like it or not. At least for now.

Bethesda has something in the works to lessen these issues. I doubt it will stop it entirely though.
boomerizer wrote: Maybe not in the manner that I think you mean. In a lot of restaurants, there are multiple people that work on your order. I used to work in a kitchen, at a resort-- up to the entire kitchen might have something to do with your order. One guy grills the meat, another one assembles it, someone else makes the sides, another person might make another side.... that, and some kitchen employees don't stick around long enough to make plastering a name on a plate cost effective. Notice how I'm getting into monetary value, now?

Mod authors don't have that concern, now do they? Money. Their product (mods) is free. And you can't steal that which is free.
boomerizer wrote: woah, brabbit. wish I'd seen this before posting to the one above you.

Right, there should be steps taken to prevent it, but like piracy, it can't be fully protected against. I mean, these state-of-the-art pirated copies of stuff are often still released even before the actual product is released. With games, online features are often forgone since that is the only way to verify a legit copy. Online authentication. Can't do that with mods, though-- as they are acquired digitally. How would you stop mod theft?

You can't stop thieves. In order to do that, you'd have to remove either the desire, or the opportunity. The only way to remove the opportunity is to not upload the mod at all. So you have to focus on deterring the desire to 'steal'. Best way to do that, is to be the first to upload your mod to the new medium. And if you don't like consoles, or just don't have the time, then you sort of have to concede the point.
Ethreon wrote: <<I'm ok with theft as long as I get what I want and the victim is given credit. What's the harm after all, I get what I want, everyone is happy.>>

:rolleyes:
boomerizer wrote: It's not theft because this s*** is free. There is no physical loss. You still have the mod page. You still have the mod assets on your computer. Oh my god, the pain.
Ethreon wrote: Please go back to the woods.

OP disagrees with you in clear terms.
Mod makers disagree with you in clear terms.
Beth disagrees with you in clear terms.
Law disagrees with you.
Common sense does too.
Billy1969 wrote: boomerizer, you're obviously a gamefaq console forum cesspool troll, please take your filth back there, k thx.
Brabbit1987 wrote: @Billy1969

Is name calling really necessary?
boomerizer wrote: Brabbit: Of course, it is necessary for the unintelligent to resort to name-calling, when they don't have an argument that can stand on its own merit.

Never been to GameFaq. At least, not knowingly.

I actually spend most of my time playing and enjoying games. In fact, before my first post here, today, I was playing Fallout 4. On my PC.

I love Bethesda games so much I own them on PC/Steam AND Xbox 360/One. I buy the games twice. Because I'm a gamer. (And because I'm married and sometimes play with-and-or-at-the-same-time-as my wife.)(And because I might have a gaming problem.)

BuffHamster wrote: What Ethreon said is quite true.

Try this logic on for size: If the mod authors are disrespected and the get angry enough with their content being bootlegged, "pffft! there goes your 'free' mods" ie; no longer available to the public. You now have to pay for them with Bitcoin."

Epic Fail in Logic. If the burger was not cooked well, or the meal was ice cold when it reached you, or was not prepared to your liking:
Do you still tip? Yes?, what a rube.
Do you complain to the wait staff? Awesome, where does that complaint go? Ah yes, the wait staff reports back to the kitchen staff.
Tips? Guess what? They are usually shared with the kitchen staff, so, bad preparation and poorly cleared tables = no tips, and later, a decline in the customer base followed by the establishment shutting down and everyone on the street.

You really need to think the apathy thing through here, rather than use superficial excuses for that feeling of entitlement. The Mod Authors owe you nothing, you on the other hand owe them, at the least, a modicum of thankful respect for creating a product that you obviously do not have the ability to do yourself.
EDIT:

Another epic fail in logic. Alternative to "uploading it first", how about "not uploading at all"?, or uploading content that turns your console into a doorstop?
Mods that use external requirements, such as Fallout 4 Script Extender, will not run on the console, ... accept it.
There are many ways the mod author can prevent their work from being pirated, and many have already taken this route.
boomerizer wrote: You're assuming the burger is ill prepared.

The mods I download are typically complete, and not broken-- as I've yet to download an incomplete or broken mod on my console. (well, I've downloaded a Hide Pipboy one that didn't work, but the answer to that was simply Disable and Delete.)

If something is broken or does not work, I disable or uninstall as appropriate, and leave it at that. If its a mod I really like or want to see, I check on it later. I don't harass the author. I just wait for it to be usable.

But that is because I know that modding can be risky. It can break the savegame, or even the game itself. If something doesn't work right, I move on. If my game gets broke, I reinstall and move on.

What a monster I am.
Billy1969 wrote: Actually I was wrong, it's not a gamefaq console forum troll, excuse me for that, seeing his constant repeating that mod stealing is no theft, in more or less difficult words that the unintelligent like me don't understand I stand corrected he is in fact Pobatti aka MasterMagnus aka a dozen other account names, the console Jesus.

EDIT: and he even uses multiple accounts to talk to himself and pat himself on the back, LMAO too funny! Seriously some peeps should be locked up in a straight jacket and the key thrown away in a deep pit.
moddersrule1969 wrote: Now I'm hungry. Thanks.
BuffHamster wrote:

No, just an uninformed fool who insists on swimming against the tide of opinion, and law.

Whether you personally think that because it is free, therfore it can not be stolen, does not fly in the courts. It has been explained to you over and over again, it is illegal, that is, posting someone else's work and claiming it as your own is called plagiarism and in many countries, it is against the Law. You can be prosecuted. You can be sued.

Is that what you are supporting? Piracy? Theft of Intellectual Property? Are you advocating that it is perfectly okay to do this?

Is that the corner that you wish to paint yourself into?
_______________________________________________
@moddersrule1969: Burgers and fries on me. want Coke or Diet Coke?
iRodd wrote: Let's put this simply: I made this mod. It's mine. I do whatever I want with it. You don't have any rights to distribute it. No, I don't care whether it's good or it's bad, if people want it or not. The mod is mine, and I decide what to do with it. If I don't want console users to use it just because I'm idiot and I dislike them, or there actually are reasons for that, I'm the one who decides it. Capiche?
boomerizer wrote: Nope. Just that I'm not going to be held to a standard that the modders aren't going to be.

Wanna prove to me you're not against stolen mods? How bout we start taking down mods that contain stolen, plagiarized content. See a more recent post of mine that lists a couple of these mods. But if you've been on here long enough, a list doesn't really need to be compiled. You'll already know some.
kingtobbe wrote: @boomerizer:
What you don't seem to realize is that creative control of a mod, getting the credit for it is what leads many mod makers to keep chasing the content creating dragon so to speak. Their content is their baby. If you take that away from then and even invert those positive feelings that mod maker will eventually stop making content. Which will lead to very little content available for everyone including console users, especially since console users are unable to create content without also being a PC user.

I don't even think that mod pirating as some have called this is a fair comparison. Mods are not commercially produced by people who do work with money as incentive. Thus it's far more destructive to mod making than it is for game and software developers (and that is saying a lot as it can be quite devastating for smaller studios and devs).

Mods that have more files than a plugin require more work than simply a quick repack with XB1 appropriate compression of archives. For example, a simple retexture of say Kellogs armor quickly de-saturated (Ctrl+Shift+U, Ctrl+S - done!) in Photoshop to make it black (you know the first mods that appeared on Nexus when FO4 was new) consists of just one file that you normally on PC just have to put in ..\Data\Textures\Armor\Kellogg\ and you are good to go. For it to work on XB1 which requires that you pack files to BA2 archives in the Creation Kit you need to make a plugin (esp) and setup a material swap pointing to a custom material file (bgsm). And this without mentioning that a author might have to consider what resolution and DDS compression that works best on XB1 and other performance issues that may require a lot of tweaking to get just right.

This is just to have a very simple mod originally consisting of a single dds-file. Most mods are far more complex and thus require far more work to function relatively similar on XB1 as it did on PC.

Additional reasons could that I should mentioned are for example:

- You are using tidbits of content by another author(s) that you either by legal reasons or just out of courtesy need to ask for a new permission or try remaking it yourself. Most permissions requires a separate permission for you to upload it to another site. If someones steals your mod you will get in trouble with authors you have permissions to use work for on Nexus but not off-site.

- You are waiting for Bethesda to update their platform so it's not so damn buggy and limiting in it's modpage functions. 2000 characters are not enough to describe most mods especially considering that users can't see what files are included when they install it I personally would like to describe what files a mod adds/changes as this will help to manage load orders and mod compatibility. And more advanced XB1 users might want to know what exactly they are downloading.

- The CK is in open beta and are not very reliable, especially when it comes to uploading your mod to another platform, I've had files both missing from archives or unrelated files being added despite not selecting them in the file list prior to packaging a mod. Other people have way more serious problems and thus many are currently delayed in their work due to this.
- Some authors are cunts. While true it doesn't justify stealing from them. It only justify you not interacting with them in the community.

Conclusion, stealing mods are ruining for everyone. I've said it many times, to both authors and users, this is a asymmetrical symbiosis. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or potentially could at least. If you can't see that you haven't understood whats going on and should refrain from commenting on the issue further until you have, or just ignore it. This issue, seen from both users and authors perspective is simple, you are either part of the community or against it. And that is just without touching the legality of the issue which Bethesda has made very clear.
boomerizer wrote: @kingtobbe

Thank you. You've worded it in a way that I understand better than whats been flung my way today. You have effectively illustrated to me how it is.

I'm still on the 'if credit is given' side, then I don't rightly care. But now I'm not so.. what is the word here? Wanting? Looking for understanding.

I'm sure many other posters here will be relieved-- I'm out, for now. I need food. And to wreck some super mutants. And to ignore Preston Garvey some more.
HadToRegister wrote: @OP, in SIX YEARS, you've endorsed ONCE.

iRodd wrote: Ok, you're trying to convince me that I use stolen mods too. Cool, maybe I do, but that's pretty irrelevant. Now, tell me: why stealing mods wouldn't be bad? For example: I created a mod and a lot of people liked it, then they start asking for a console version. If it is possible, I have the time, the means and the will, I'll port it. Else, I could trust someone else to do so, just like a lot of armor mods out there. Or, for any reason, not port it at all. This is fine, you wouldn't even be able to use my mod if I hadn't uploaded it to the Nexus in the first place, to respect my wish is the least you can do.

You can't just download the mod and upload it somewhere else, don't you see? You're disrespecting the author, who you should be grateful to for creating the mod. You can't just think "Hey, he would like to see his mod being used everywhere, so I'll upload it elsewhere!", you aren't the author nor know how he feels and thinks. If you really want port a mod to a console, ask the author first. Stop thinking just about yourself, I can barely believe you're married that way.
Roblade wrote: The cook sure the hell does care who does and doesn't get the burger. We like to know when people like boomerizer are ordering. I think nexus should have a Banned from mod list for authors to reject users, keeping them from being able to download track or comment on a mod. or the authors entire collection of mods. As a Chef I have that, it is a little sign on my front glass, it says " I reserve the right to refuse service." I've only ever used that right twice, after all you can't refuse everyone and stay in business, but I've made some very public refusals, once tossed out a man for fondling one of my waitresses.
@boomerizer: What you, and many, many others, apparently don't seem to understand is, it all boils down to a matter of respect.

The legality arguments, laying out of the rules, the naming conventions, if it's called theft, piracy or what-have-you, and all the funny analogies people may come up with, are all fine and dandy, but... ultimately they don't matter.

What does matter is, plain and simply, these authors have no reason to be sharing their works with you, none, nada, at all, despite maybe their own willingness to share. Sharing is not part of the hobby, it's only an afterthought. They mod for themselves first and foremost, and then, out of the goodness of their heart or whatever, decide to go the extra mile and make it usable by others, share it, and maintain comments sections to offer support and perhaps also hear you out on suggestions or ideas for improvements. But at the end of the day "you", as in "the users", are not needed in the equation and can and will, from an author's point of view, very easily be eliminated again at any point in time, and it will only ever be a win to themselves, a loss only to you.

It doesn't matter "why" they decided to distribute and manage their mods in so-or-so ways, or what places they choose to have their mods available at or not. They created it, they decide, you "respect" it, period.

If you don't, and make yourself more of a bother than it's worth for them, which is where you're heading with your attitude, and everybody agreeing with it while not seeing the big picture in the background, you eliminate their desire to share with you. They don't have any reason to, it's not like you're giving them anything back for it, not even a thanks mostly, and they most definitely do not benefit from your usage of their mods. Instead it "costs" them, actually, time, effort, and in your and other people's cases also nerves and heartache a lot.

If you disrespect them and their work as atrociously as to actively support someone who "stole" their work, as you do, no matter what he's going to do with it, he took it without asking first, and that's blatant disrespect to those people, sometimes even doing something that's completely against their expressed wishes, then "you" are making yourself their enemy and in their eyes no longer deserving access to their mods.

With increasing numbers of "you" their desire to keep sharing rapidly dwindles. And as it's absolutely no loss at all to them to just stop, at one point sooner or later they will. And that's where you're heading, if you keep at it, increasingly less and less mods shared with the public, for the public is becoming more a bother than the effort is worth. And a gain it never was.

The number of authors speaking up against your mindset in here should be telling, but apparently it's not. Be assured though that the number you're seeing here is only the pinnacle of the iceberg, as they say, and a lot more even are just silently sitting back and watching you people now, then making their decision if publicly sharing is still "worth it" in their eyes or not. As we speak, and the things on Bethesda.net keep going on the way they are now for only a little longer, the balance is quickly tipping towards your deficit, and in numbers you can't even fathom in your weirdest nightmares. Keep up with this attitude of your's, stay a part of the problem instead of helping in coming to a solution, and they'll soon become reality.

You're happy to see mods finally coming to consoles? Guess again, they won't be for much longer, if people can't even be bothered to give at least the minimum amount of respect to those who create these mods. You think this situation is blown out of proportion? Think again, because these creators disagree. You think they shouldn't care as much as they do? Guess what, but they do! And they won't ever stop just because you say so.

This blatant disrespect thrown at these benevolent people in scales beyond your wildest imagination right now really cannot be taken by everybody, and by most others not endlessly so either. It gets to their heart, it turns them away, it makes them no longer "want" to share.

Is this what you're aiming for? 'Cause then, congratulations, you're achieving it.

Thanks for coming in and try to enter some empathy and reasoning to this individual.

At this point this is just becoming disgusting. No matter how obvious and strong the answers we give to him, he just keep answering with the same fallacies over and over and over.

I wish he was banned but at the end this doesn't fix anything since sadly, many children share his views. At this point I will just ignore his existence and any words he writes.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wasn't talking to this one individual exclusively though. The "you" I used in my post can also be directed at all the others in here who expressed a similar mindset or expressed their agreement with his, as damaging and detrimental as it is. If I reach only one and make them see the authors' side of the problem, my post will have served a purpose.

I have experience in talking with brick walls, the situation isn't new to me. My own brother is a prime example, the kind of who'd claim gravity'd work upwards and when shown a stone dropping down would call physics malfunctioning in the area or something. You can't talk reason into these.

They won't be banned until they break the terms, although the damage they currently are causing is actually rather massive. They don't see it like I do every day 24/7 discussed among the authors in their forums, how much in danger the very idea of mods for FO4 publicly shared already actually is thanks to them and their ilk, so I tried informing them and opening their eyes, but it mostly fell on deaf ears of course as usual.

The Vampire Dante wrote:
I've removed about as much of his comments from here as I felt neccessary, they were becoming needlessly distracting and antagonistic to many of the other participants in the topic.

Kalell wrote: I don't consider myself a mod author (I've only uploaded one mod of my own) but I have access to the mod author forum and they're not happy. What people don't seem to realize is when they finally get feed up no one will even hear about it, the mods will just start disappearing.

mlee3141 wrote: Nice going, boomerizer. You managed to convince me that the user community is beyond salvaging. I'm done sharing; there's nothing more to be said here.

phantompally76 wrote: Deleting someone's comments simply because the echo chamber doesn't agree with them is every bit as unethical as mod piracy, in my humble opinion.

None of boomerizer's comments were any more antagonistic or inflammatory than Dark0ne's OP. And while I didn't really agree with much of what boomerizer was saying, the behavior of his respondents definitely caused me to respect his thoughts just a little more than those attacking him, even if I don't agree with him. Members of this community are acting a hundred times worse than the #modgate pitchfork brigade at their strongest, all in the name of so-called righteousness.

The last time I checked, this was an open discussion...not an "I agree with you Dark0ne, you're doing a terrific job pissing off Bethesda and burning your (our) bridges" thread. If both sides of the argument aren't allowed to have their say without being moderated, then what's the point? This essay isn't even being circle jerked on reddit right now (which SHOULD tell absolutely everyone here something), so this is the only place to discuss the issue. And it's not a black and white issue. I know you want it to be. I wish it were. But it isn't.

This is a controversial topic, made a thousand times worse by a controversial essay, written in the heat of the moment with no consideration or regard for the consequences. So if the comments are open to only one side of the debate, please let the community know. Let ME know, so I can stop interrupting your echo chamber party with common sense and rationale.

Kraynic wrote: @Phantom I agree that purging someone's comments can cause problems. However, I don't see how it is a problem in this case. Having a really loud voice promoting piracy and saying no rules apply probably isn't a good thing to have going on either.

Yeah, there have been some pretty rough comments on both sides. That doesn't make one individual's stance more reasonable or right just because there were rude people on the other side.

phantompally76 wrote: Regardless, that's not how an open discussion works.

Again, if this is not an open discussion, then say so.

It wouldn't break my heart if you wanted to see yourself out.

Telling artists that they have no right to the control and distribution of their work is fascist. That is very black and white. Bethesda is an American company. The laws are pretty cut and dry here. Stealing is illegal. Copyright infringement is illegal. Piracy is illegal. Call it what you want. It is wrong.

There are no subtle nuances to this issue. I know you really want there to be, but that comes from a place of greed deep down in your heart. You want mods on console. That is and will always be at the discretion of each artist.

hangman04 · June 19, 2016

In response to post #39525245. #39528920, #39529290, #39529630, #39533865, #39542225, #39543125, #39543345, #39543435 are all replies on the same post.

CliveBarker wrote:

In response to post #39505740. #39506695, #39506970, #39507980, #39508195, #39508525, #39508680, #39508790, #39509285, #39509720, #39510275, #39511760, #39511995, #39512010, #39512485, #39512650, #39512810, #39514085, #39514395, #39514900, #39515165, #39515295, #39515610, #39516210, #39516250, #39516375, #39518215, #39518480, #39520555, #39521910, #39522230, #39522760, #39524160 are all replies on the same post.

boomerizer wrote: OK, so, I read most of this. I know, TL;DR, I'm usually not one to skip, but most of this doesn't really apply to me. The thing with moderating etc, et al.

SO, I understand the whole stolen mods thing is bad. But, only "in a way."

Controversial, I know.

Here's why:
1) I've been using nexus probably on and off for the better part of 3 years-- though I don't really remember when I actually created my account to first mod Fallout: New Vegas-- I'm sure nobody cares anyway, so its not relevant. So I'll simply say: I don't know many modders by name.

Why is this relevant? Well, see, with 'stolen mods' on Xbox One (which I use, because I have a 2 Xbox Ones, and Xbox 360, a PS4, a /decent/ desktop computer, and 2 sub-par macbook pro laptops-- why duplicates? Well, I am married, and sometimes my wife and I like to play some games together.-- that last tidbit is irrelevant, but what /IS/ relevant is that I play many games, across many platforms. For example? I have Skyrim on Steam, I have Skyrim on the 360 (honestly, the only reason I still have the old thing). I play battlefield and the fallout games on both available platforms. Up until mods for console-- the only reason I played games on the PC was for that reason (if the game itself wasn't a PC exclusive.) Why? Console games are just far more easily accessible. I prefer to play them there, rather than worry about "will my computer run this?"

OK, so back on topic: I don't know mod authors by name. I mean, I do recognize some, like, say, Azar with hair mods. But that is pretty much, about it.

Why is this relevant? Because I just download them, and use them. I click like/favorite/endorse, whatever when I really like a mod, but other than that, I'm just a user. I appreciate all the mods created, sure, but I don't really look at the authors' names.

Here's the killer-- the part that will likely piss every mod author off.(but I mean well.)

I don't care if a mod has been stolen to be put up on the Xbox One site-- because to me, it is merely somebody throwing up a good mod onto a site when the author of the original PC mod hasn't taken the time of day to do it themselves. *gasp* I'm an douche for saying that, I know.

The biggest example I can say, of a mod I'd really like made (re)available is the NCR Veteran Ranger armor. I mean, it's the only mod I use on the PC that ISN'T readily available on Xbox. (I mean, I also have the Patriot Shield on PC and it isn't on xbox yet, but thats a story for another day.) Though, for a brief time,it had been, and the worst part is that it's not like the person who threw it on the console mod site claimed it was theirs. It was a mod that added several things-- and dudes, seriously, the description word limit doesn't really afford the uploaded to go into great detail.

Sure, the people that steal the mod and put it up on the console site could--SHOULD give credit where credit is due. But with that word limit, it really shouldn't be a priority. A description of what the mod is, and what it does, and how to use it should come first. THEN, if it can be done, sure, give credit where credit is due.

But mods are a free service, distributed free to a populace that I don't think really cares who makes the mods, just as long as they are made. I'd be more with you guys if the mods being stolen were being charged for. I know there is one dirtbag that was trying to encourage donations for stolen mods-- and yeah, OK, that is pathetic, and that guy (forgot the username) can rack off. But the way I see it, if its a mod that is on PC and isn't uploaded by the mod author due either to time, or they are a PC-Master-Race-r that doesn't think mods should be available to Console Peasants? Yeah, I don't care about how they feel-- its just someone making a good mod available to Xbox One.

Now, about this user unfriendliness on the bethesda.net/in-game mod browser?

Uh....what? I can use it just fine. Y for search. Use words to search for keywords. If mod is available. Click Download. How can it POSSIBLY be any easier to use?

In fact, I find it far easier to use than Nexus page or Nexus Mod Manager. Especially since with Skyrim mods, I ALSO need like 3 other programs to get certain mods to work-- LOOT, FNIS, SKSE. It's a nightmare most of the time, especially ENB's.

So, I guess what I mean to say is, if you care that much about stolen mods on Xbox One, be the first to make YOUR mods available on Xbox One before crying about your mod being stolen. Considering how easy that sounds...?

Makes me think most PC mod authors just don't give a flying stegosauras about the console community. When, y'know, at least in my case, I am both PC and Xbox. (I have a PS4 but, I really don't have anything worth repeated play.) I just want the mod available. I don't care who makes it available. Just that it is. And if it isn't available, or if a modder stops making it available for whatever reason, then, why even bother caring? If you care; make the effort to make it available. If you don't care to make it available for console, then don't cry out when someone else DOES make the effort to make it available. If the 'thief' is asking/demanding for payment/donations of some kind---or straight up saying "I made this! look at me! praise my awesome modding skillz!", yeah, OK, cry out all you want. But if its just a simple copy/paste upload with paraphrased description of the mod, why does it matter?

I don't know man, its all undue drama from both sides.

((Sorry I am all over the place. Rushed through, and without any real structure. Brain vomit.))

TLDR version:
Stop bitchin' if you don't make the effort to make it available. If you care enough to *censored*, but not enough to provide; why do it in the first place?
durge13 wrote: You don't seem to understand the stress put on modders when someone else starts distributing their mods. If that other person falls behind even a single version, it could mean the original author getting bug reports for things that have already been fixed, possibly leading to hours looking for the source of a bug that doesn't exist anymore. It has f*** all to do with availability to the masses (as you'd know if you read the whole post), modders can do what they want with their mods (within legal reason) and as always they have no reason to explain it to you why they do it that way. They could make it only available to people with the letter A at the start of their surname, and there is nothing you could say that would invalidate their choice to do so.

The fact is, stolen mods remove control from the original author, they may be changed slightly, they may be corrupted, out of date, and if an author has literally hundreds of thousands of people using their mod (like many on the Nexus do) then that can lead to unmanageable numbers of people asking about bugs that don't exist or features requests that have already been added.

It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be and I haven't covered even half the problems that can arise from people making their own stolen distributions of a mod.

Obviously this doesn't happen with every mod that is stolen but it happens enough that a blanket policy of banning those who distribute stolen mods (regardless of if they 'give credit' as it's really not about credit for most).
boomerizer wrote: Ok, well while I can understand that-- I don't like to download complex mods that require constant updates. Usually, just armor/clothing and weapons. I mean, how many times do you really need to update a helmet?

That said, you merely validated my own argument on author names. How does the original mod author get the number of people asking about bugs and s***? If ModAuthorA makes the mod, and ModTheifB steals the mod, and updates the mod then how do the people end up at ModAuthorA for support?

I mean, sounds to me, credit is very unnecessary if the users know where to go.
Ethreon wrote: What you boil down to - I don't give a damn what happens as long as I GET WHAT I WANT.

.. this is why aliens avoid us.
boomerizer wrote: Incorrect. Best analogy that I can come up with:

I buy a burger. I don't know the cooks name.
But I know the waiter or waitress.
I thank the waitress.
If she's nice, I tip the waitress.

The cook goes thankless.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the cook for providing me with a well seasoned and prepared meal. But in the end, all that matters is that it was provided. And the cook can live with that because he knows. He doesn't need the credit.
wsxcgy wrote: @bommerizer

but waitresses don't steal the burgers from the cook once they have made it. the cook gives the burger to the waitress so the consumer may enjoy it.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Even better boomer...

At your work place you finish a great job and take a break for a coffee and a snack.
Mean time a another person take your hard work and rush to the boss, bragging about his success!
He will be appreciated by a lot of people, maybe promoted, maybe the boss will give him a new office.

When you will return from your break, you will also have a reward, a new office... next to the toilet, because you have not done well your work and you will have to do all the dirty work from now on.

How you will feel it now ?!
boomerizer wrote: No, the cook leaves it on the counter/hotplate-- the cook doesn't care who ordered the burger, or even who gets the burger. He doesn't know where its going.

Then, the waitress delivers it to the table. But maybe, I ordered it, but then slid the plate to my wife or daughter, or a homeless person I invited to my table because it is payday and I felt generous.

In this case, the mod author uploads the mod to the internet, for everyone to download.

Now, I can download it from the original site, or I can download it from a ("stolen") redistribution-- it makes little difference to me. Because I don't look at author names. I merely check to make sure the download isn't dirty.
boomerizer wrote: Look, I'm not saying credit shouldn't be given where credit is due, in redistributed mods.

What I am mostly trying to convey is that unless the stolen mod is nefarious in nature, and the person is going out of their way to claim is as their own, it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds to me like mod authors are taking their works farrrrrrr toooooo seriously. And if thats how they feel, then perhaps they should make the effort to write their name in the mod-- there are plenty of mods that bring up pop up windows in the game "Welcome to FOCOM" for example. Can just say "This mod made by <> and distributed by <>".

I wouldn't leave my work unlabelled.

Oh, and a thought I just had:
At a job, I'd be getting paid. Money.

Here, its volunteer work. Nobody is really benefiting from 'stealing' a mod. I mean, seriously. In the best case scenario, the mod author gets more notoriety, because users search for the mod name (ie. Commonwealth Cuts, I had to search for because I couldn't find it on the nexus after downloading it on Xbox One). Because to be honest, I don't know the author name of Commonwealth Cuts.

The worst case, the mod author has to say "sorry, the only way I can fix your problem is if you uninstall THAT mod, and give me a bit of time to upload MY original version so that you may continue to enjoy my work."

So. Yeah.

boomerizer wrote: I also can't speak for how mods work, I know.

But I know that adding new 'physical' assets like armor, weapons, clothes, new workshop items-- those shouldn't really require tweaking between PC and Xbox. Fallout 4 is Fallout 4 either way you look at it.

Complex mods like quest lines, sure I can see where there might be some trouble. And worse, graphical enhancements-- yeah I get it. It's not just a simple port. But without only 2GB to play with, my only concern is adding physical assets, rather than trying to make the game look better-- because FO4 already looks pretty dang good. I wish I could download more than I have, though-- I sure would like to see quest mods like Skryims Falskaar and Lost City... but one of those mods is 2GB or more on its own.

Besides, you've created a mod, put a lot of work into it, and then uploaded it online-- your involvement is basically done. It's not like you have to worry about mass producing a physical object. Yet, you've made one product that now ANYONE can get for themselves. And if you've done your job right, there should be no need to fix anything.

You have no way of knowing if it works on console unless you own one yourself, upload your mod yourself, and test it, yourself. A lot of work that you might not want to do, but someone else already has? How does that add stress to you?

Nemesis8727 wrote: I agree with 95% of the things you say. The last 5% is the stuff I forgot after I read it.
I have created stuff in the past and I don't care how people use it or how they get it.
If they get it on some site no one uses (bethesda.net) where they wont thank me anyway if I took the time to upload it.
Or if they got it here on nexus, I don't care.
I can understand if creators do care but I think its just waste of energy to go complain on a site no one uses.
If I download a mod on nexus I look on the info, how to, FAQ and if I'm impressed I might look over the authors other mods but on a console I just want to press download.
EffELOfficial wrote: Wow. Flamewar. Right there. Your Burger analogy is more like the relationship between Mod Authors and the Nexus. The Nexus being the Waitress. Only difference is that the Cook's name is pasted on the plate, there.

Holy crap, that's an excellent idea, restaurants should do that.
Brabbit1987 wrote: I pretty much agree as well. I think this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is. In fact, I would say the over reaction just made the situation worse.

I also, think the easiest way to prevent this is to upload your mod before anyone else does.

Now the only reason I agree is because it's pretty much the only thing that can be done at the moment, unless you want to go through the process of taking down your mod uploaded by someone else.

I do think people should not be stealing. Let's say for example, the mod author doesn't want to make their mod available to consoles. I believe that should be respected. However, that is not the way things tend to work when it comes to things like this. Not everyone respects one another, and that honestly should be obvious.

It sort of similar in a way to piracy. Yes, it sucks, but as a developer you should be thinking ahead and how you will deal with it. I myself, would upload my own game so people can torrent it. I am more about getting my game out there, than I am for trying to make every last penny I possibly can.

So if you are a mod developer and you decide not to release it on consoles, you have to expect someone is going to do it for you, whether you like it or not. At least for now.

Bethesda has something in the works to lessen these issues. I doubt it will stop it entirely though.
boomerizer wrote: Maybe not in the manner that I think you mean. In a lot of restaurants, there are multiple people that work on your order. I used to work in a kitchen, at a resort-- up to the entire kitchen might have something to do with your order. One guy grills the meat, another one assembles it, someone else makes the sides, another person might make another side.... that, and some kitchen employees don't stick around long enough to make plastering a name on a plate cost effective. Notice how I'm getting into monetary value, now?

Mod authors don't have that concern, now do they? Money. Their product (mods) is free. And you can't steal that which is free.
boomerizer wrote: woah, brabbit. wish I'd seen this before posting to the one above you.

Right, there should be steps taken to prevent it, but like piracy, it can't be fully protected against. I mean, these state-of-the-art pirated copies of stuff are often still released even before the actual product is released. With games, online features are often forgone since that is the only way to verify a legit copy. Online authentication. Can't do that with mods, though-- as they are acquired digitally. How would you stop mod theft?

You can't stop thieves. In order to do that, you'd have to remove either the desire, or the opportunity. The only way to remove the opportunity is to not upload the mod at all. So you have to focus on deterring the desire to 'steal'. Best way to do that, is to be the first to upload your mod to the new medium. And if you don't like consoles, or just don't have the time, then you sort of have to concede the point.
Ethreon wrote: <<I'm ok with theft as long as I get what I want and the victim is given credit. What's the harm after all, I get what I want, everyone is happy.>>

:rolleyes:
boomerizer wrote: It's not theft because this s*** is free. There is no physical loss. You still have the mod page. You still have the mod assets on your computer. Oh my god, the pain.
Ethreon wrote: Please go back to the woods.

OP disagrees with you in clear terms.
Mod makers disagree with you in clear terms.
Beth disagrees with you in clear terms.
Law disagrees with you.
Common sense does too.
Billy1969 wrote: boomerizer, you're obviously a gamefaq console forum cesspool troll, please take your filth back there, k thx.
Brabbit1987 wrote: @Billy1969

Is name calling really necessary?
boomerizer wrote: Brabbit: Of course, it is necessary for the unintelligent to resort to name-calling, when they don't have an argument that can stand on its own merit.

Never been to GameFaq. At least, not knowingly.

I actually spend most of my time playing and enjoying games. In fact, before my first post here, today, I was playing Fallout 4. On my PC.

I love Bethesda games so much I own them on PC/Steam AND Xbox 360/One. I buy the games twice. Because I'm a gamer. (And because I'm married and sometimes play with-and-or-at-the-same-time-as my wife.)(And because I might have a gaming problem.)

BuffHamster wrote: What Ethreon said is quite true.

Try this logic on for size: If the mod authors are disrespected and the get angry enough with their content being bootlegged, "pffft! there goes your 'free' mods" ie; no longer available to the public. You now have to pay for them with Bitcoin."

Epic Fail in Logic. If the burger was not cooked well, or the meal was ice cold when it reached you, or was not prepared to your liking:
Do you still tip? Yes?, what a rube.
Do you complain to the wait staff? Awesome, where does that complaint go? Ah yes, the wait staff reports back to the kitchen staff.
Tips? Guess what? They are usually shared with the kitchen staff, so, bad preparation and poorly cleared tables = no tips, and later, a decline in the customer base followed by the establishment shutting down and everyone on the street.

You really need to think the apathy thing through here, rather than use superficial excuses for that feeling of entitlement. The Mod Authors owe you nothing, you on the other hand owe them, at the least, a modicum of thankful respect for creating a product that you obviously do not have the ability to do yourself.
EDIT:

Another epic fail in logic. Alternative to "uploading it first", how about "not uploading at all"?, or uploading content that turns your console into a doorstop?
Mods that use external requirements, such as Fallout 4 Script Extender, will not run on the console, ... accept it.
There are many ways the mod author can prevent their work from being pirated, and many have already taken this route.
boomerizer wrote: You're assuming the burger is ill prepared.

The mods I download are typically complete, and not broken-- as I've yet to download an incomplete or broken mod on my console. (well, I've downloaded a Hide Pipboy one that didn't work, but the answer to that was simply Disable and Delete.)

If something is broken or does not work, I disable or uninstall as appropriate, and leave it at that. If its a mod I really like or want to see, I check on it later. I don't harass the author. I just wait for it to be usable.

But that is because I know that modding can be risky. It can break the savegame, or even the game itself. If something doesn't work right, I move on. If my game gets broke, I reinstall and move on.

What a monster I am.
Billy1969 wrote: Actually I was wrong, it's not a gamefaq console forum troll, excuse me for that, seeing his constant repeating that mod stealing is no theft, in more or less difficult words that the unintelligent like me don't understand I stand corrected he is in fact Pobatti aka MasterMagnus aka a dozen other account names, the console Jesus.

EDIT: and he even uses multiple accounts to talk to himself and pat himself on the back, LMAO too funny! Seriously some peeps should be locked up in a straight jacket and the key thrown away in a deep pit.
moddersrule1969 wrote: Now I'm hungry. Thanks.
BuffHamster wrote:

No, just an uninformed fool who insists on swimming against the tide of opinion, and law.

Whether you personally think that because it is free, therfore it can not be stolen, does not fly in the courts. It has been explained to you over and over again, it is illegal, that is, posting someone else's work and claiming it as your own is called plagiarism and in many countries, it is against the Law. You can be prosecuted. You can be sued.

Is that what you are supporting? Piracy? Theft of Intellectual Property? Are you advocating that it is perfectly okay to do this?

Is that the corner that you wish to paint yourself into?
_______________________________________________
@moddersrule1969: Burgers and fries on me. want Coke or Diet Coke?
iRodd wrote: Let's put this simply: I made this mod. It's mine. I do whatever I want with it. You don't have any rights to distribute it. No, I don't care whether it's good or it's bad, if people want it or not. The mod is mine, and I decide what to do with it. If I don't want console users to use it just because I'm idiot and I dislike them, or there actually are reasons for that, I'm the one who decides it. Capiche?
boomerizer wrote: Nope. Just that I'm not going to be held to a standard that the modders aren't going to be.

Wanna prove to me you're not against stolen mods? How bout we start taking down mods that contain stolen, plagiarized content. See a more recent post of mine that lists a couple of these mods. But if you've been on here long enough, a list doesn't really need to be compiled. You'll already know some.
kingtobbe wrote: @boomerizer:
What you don't seem to realize is that creative control of a mod, getting the credit for it is what leads many mod makers to keep chasing the content creating dragon so to speak. Their content is their baby. If you take that away from then and even invert those positive feelings that mod maker will eventually stop making content. Which will lead to very little content available for everyone including console users, especially since console users are unable to create content without also being a PC user.

I don't even think that mod pirating as some have called this is a fair comparison. Mods are not commercially produced by people who do work with money as incentive. Thus it's far more destructive to mod making than it is for game and software developers (and that is saying a lot as it can be quite devastating for smaller studios and devs).

Mods that have more files than a plugin require more work than simply a quick repack with XB1 appropriate compression of archives. For example, a simple retexture of say Kellogs armor quickly de-saturated (Ctrl+Shift+U, Ctrl+S - done!) in Photoshop to make it black (you know the first mods that appeared on Nexus when FO4 was new) consists of just one file that you normally on PC just have to put in ..\Data\Textures\Armor\Kellogg\ and you are good to go. For it to work on XB1 which requires that you pack files to BA2 archives in the Creation Kit you need to make a plugin (esp) and setup a material swap pointing to a custom material file (bgsm). And this without mentioning that a author might have to consider what resolution and DDS compression that works best on XB1 and other performance issues that may require a lot of tweaking to get just right.

This is just to have a very simple mod originally consisting of a single dds-file. Most mods are far more complex and thus require far more work to function relatively similar on XB1 as it did on PC.

Additional reasons could that I should mentioned are for example:

- You are using tidbits of content by another author(s) that you either by legal reasons or just out of courtesy need to ask for a new permission or try remaking it yourself. Most permissions requires a separate permission for you to upload it to another site. If someones steals your mod you will get in trouble with authors you have permissions to use work for on Nexus but not off-site.

- You are waiting for Bethesda to update their platform so it's not so damn buggy and limiting in it's modpage functions. 2000 characters are not enough to describe most mods especially considering that users can't see what files are included when they install it I personally would like to describe what files a mod adds/changes as this will help to manage load orders and mod compatibility. And more advanced XB1 users might want to know what exactly they are downloading.

- The CK is in open beta and are not very reliable, especially when it comes to uploading your mod to another platform, I've had files both missing from archives or unrelated files being added despite not selecting them in the file list prior to packaging a mod. Other people have way more serious problems and thus many are currently delayed in their work due to this.
- Some authors are cunts. While true it doesn't justify stealing from them. It only justify you not interacting with them in the community.

Conclusion, stealing mods are ruining for everyone. I've said it many times, to both authors and users, this is a asymmetrical symbiosis. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or potentially could at least. If you can't see that you haven't understood whats going on and should refrain from commenting on the issue further until you have, or just ignore it. This issue, seen from both users and authors perspective is simple, you are either part of the community or against it. And that is just without touching the legality of the issue which Bethesda has made very clear.
boomerizer wrote: @kingtobbe

Thank you. You've worded it in a way that I understand better than whats been flung my way today. You have effectively illustrated to me how it is.

I'm still on the 'if credit is given' side, then I don't rightly care. But now I'm not so.. what is the word here? Wanting? Looking for understanding.

I'm sure many other posters here will be relieved-- I'm out, for now. I need food. And to wreck some super mutants. And to ignore Preston Garvey some more.
HadToRegister wrote: @OP, in SIX YEARS, you've endorsed ONCE.

iRodd wrote: Ok, you're trying to convince me that I use stolen mods too. Cool, maybe I do, but that's pretty irrelevant. Now, tell me: why stealing mods wouldn't be bad? For example: I created a mod and a lot of people liked it, then they start asking for a console version. If it is possible, I have the time, the means and the will, I'll port it. Else, I could trust someone else to do so, just like a lot of armor mods out there. Or, for any reason, not port it at all. This is fine, you wouldn't even be able to use my mod if I hadn't uploaded it to the Nexus in the first place, to respect my wish is the least you can do.

You can't just download the mod and upload it somewhere else, don't you see? You're disrespecting the author, who you should be grateful to for creating the mod. You can't just think "Hey, he would like to see his mod being used everywhere, so I'll upload it elsewhere!", you aren't the author nor know how he feels and thinks. If you really want port a mod to a console, ask the author first. Stop thinking just about yourself, I can barely believe you're married that way.
Roblade wrote: The cook sure the hell does care who does and doesn't get the burger. We like to know when people like boomerizer are ordering. I think nexus should have a Banned from mod list for authors to reject users, keeping them from being able to download track or comment on a mod. or the authors entire collection of mods. As a Chef I have that, it is a little sign on my front glass, it says " I reserve the right to refuse service." I've only ever used that right twice, after all you can't refuse everyone and stay in business, but I've made some very public refusals, once tossed out a man for fondling one of my waitresses.
@boomerizer: What you, and many, many others, apparently don't seem to understand is, it all boils down to a matter of respect.

The legality arguments, laying out of the rules, the naming conventions, if it's called theft, piracy or what-have-you, and all the funny analogies people may come up with, are all fine and dandy, but... ultimately they don't matter.

What does matter is, plain and simply, these authors have no reason to be sharing their works with you, none, nada, at all, despite maybe their own willingness to share. Sharing is not part of the hobby, it's only an afterthought. They mod for themselves first and foremost, and then, out of the goodness of their heart or whatever, decide to go the extra mile and make it usable by others, share it, and maintain comments sections to offer support and perhaps also hear you out on suggestions or ideas for improvements. But at the end of the day "you", as in "the users", are not needed in the equation and can and will, from an author's point of view, very easily be eliminated again at any point in time, and it will only ever be a win to themselves, a loss only to you.

It doesn't matter "why" they decided to distribute and manage their mods in so-or-so ways, or what places they choose to have their mods available at or not. They created it, they decide, you "respect" it, period.

If you don't, and make yourself more of a bother than it's worth for them, which is where you're heading with your attitude, and everybody agreeing with it while not seeing the big picture in the background, you eliminate their desire to share with you. They don't have any reason to, it's not like you're giving them anything back for it, not even a thanks mostly, and they most definitely do not benefit from your usage of their mods. Instead it "costs" them, actually, time, effort, and in your and other people's cases also nerves and heartache a lot.

If you disrespect them and their work as atrociously as to actively support someone who "stole" their work, as you do, no matter what he's going to do with it, he took it without asking first, and that's blatant disrespect to those people, sometimes even doing something that's completely against their expressed wishes, then "you" are making yourself their enemy and in their eyes no longer deserving access to their mods.

With increasing numbers of "you" their desire to keep sharing rapidly dwindles. And as it's absolutely no loss at all to them to just stop, at one point sooner or later they will. And that's where you're heading, if you keep at it, increasingly less and less mods shared with the public, for the public is becoming more a bother than the effort is worth. And a gain it never was.

The number of authors speaking up against your mindset in here should be telling, but apparently it's not. Be assured though that the number you're seeing here is only the pinnacle of the iceberg, as they say, and a lot more even are just silently sitting back and watching you people now, then making their decision if publicly sharing is still "worth it" in their eyes or not. As we speak, and the things on Bethesda.net keep going on the way they are now for only a little longer, the balance is quickly tipping towards your deficit, and in numbers you can't even fathom in your weirdest nightmares. Keep up with this attitude of your's, stay a part of the problem instead of helping in coming to a solution, and they'll soon become reality.

You're happy to see mods finally coming to consoles? Guess again, they won't be for much longer, if people can't even be bothered to give at least the minimum amount of respect to those who create these mods. You think this situation is blown out of proportion? Think again, because these creators disagree. You think they shouldn't care as much as they do? Guess what, but they do! And they won't ever stop just because you say so.

This blatant disrespect thrown at these benevolent people in scales beyond your wildest imagination right now really cannot be taken by everybody, and by most others not endlessly so either. It gets to their heart, it turns them away, it makes them no longer "want" to share.

Is this what you're aiming for? 'Cause then, congratulations, you're achieving it.

Thanks for coming in and try to enter some empathy and reasoning to this individual.

At this point this is just becoming disgusting. No matter how obvious and strong the answers we give to him, he just keep answering with the same fallacies over and over and over.

I wish he was banned but at the end this doesn't fix anything since sadly, many children share his views. At this point I will just ignore his existence and any words he writes.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wasn't talking to this one individual exclusively though. The "you" I used in my post can also be directed at all the others in here who expressed a similar mindset or expressed their agreement with his, as damaging and detrimental as it is. If I reach only one and make them see the authors' side of the problem, my post will have served a purpose.

I have experience in talking with brick walls, the situation isn't new to me. My own brother is a prime example, the kind of who'd claim gravity'd work upwards and when shown a stone dropping down would call physics malfunctioning in the area or something. You can't talk reason into these.

They won't be banned until they break the terms, although the damage they currently are causing is actually rather massive. They don't see it like I do every day 24/7 discussed among the authors in their forums, how much in danger the very idea of mods for FO4 publicly shared already actually is thanks to them and their ilk, so I tried informing them and opening their eyes, but it mostly fell on deaf ears of course as usual.

The Vampire Dante wrote:
I've removed about as much of his comments from here as I felt neccessary, they were becoming needlessly distracting and antagonistic to many of the other participants in the topic.

Kalell wrote: I don't consider myself a mod author (I've only uploaded one mod of my own) but I have access to the mod author forum and they're not happy. What people don't seem to realize is when they finally get feed up no one will even hear about it, the mods will just start disappearing.

mlee3141 wrote: Nice going, boomerizer. You managed to convince me that the user community is beyond salvaging. I'm done sharing; there's nothing more to be said here.

phantompally76 wrote: Deleting someone's comments simply because the echo chamber doesn't agree with them is every bit as unethical as mod piracy, in my humble opinion.

None of boomerizer's comments were any more antagonistic or inflammatory than Dark0ne's OP. And while I didn't really agree with much of what boomerizer was saying, the behavior of his respondents definitely caused me to respect his thoughts just a little more than those attacking him, even if I don't agree with him. Members of this community are acting a hundred times worse than the #modgate pitchfork brigade at their strongest, all in the name of so-called righteousness.

The last time I checked, this was an open discussion...not an "I agree with you Dark0ne, you're doing a terrific job pissing off Bethesda and burning your (our) bridges" thread. If both sides of the argument aren't allowed to have their say without being moderated, then what's the point? This essay isn't even being circle jerked on reddit right now (which SHOULD tell absolutely everyone here something), so this is the only place to discuss the issue. And it's not a black and white issue. I know you want it to be. I wish it were. But it isn't.

This is a controversial topic, made a thousand times worse by a controversial essay, written in the heat of the moment with no consideration or regard for the consequences. So if the comments are open to only one side of the debate, please let the community know. Let ME know, so I can stop interrupting your echo chamber party with common sense and rationale.

Kraynic wrote: @Phantom I agree that purging someone's comments can cause problems. However, I don't see how it is a problem in this case. Having a really loud voice promoting piracy and saying no rules apply probably isn't a good thing to have going on either.

Yeah, there have been some pretty rough comments on both sides. That doesn't make one individual's stance more reasonable or right just because there were rude people on the other side.

phantompally76 wrote: Regardless, that's not how an open discussion works.

Again, if this is not an open discussion, then say so.

wulfharth wrote: It wouldn't break my heart if you wanted to see yourself out.

Telling artists that they have no right to the control and distribution of their work is fascist. That is very black and white. Bethesda is an American company. The laws are pretty cut and dry here. Stealing is illegal. Copyright infringement is illegal. Piracy is illegal. Call it what you want. It is wrong.

There are no subtle nuances to this issue. I know you really want there to be, but that comes from a place of greed deep down in your heart. You want mods on console. That is and will always be at the discretion of each artist.

it's the same shiate all over again, from when people stole good modes from nexus like sites and posted them on steam for money.... the exact people like boomerizer where downloading them and not giving a crap...

some may say that it was a different thing since it involved money, but now it may not be about money (YET!) but it is about pride! and sometimes pride can be more powerful than money....

the bad thing is that beth by their non action actually endorsed this s#*! on their platform.

Drakonadrgora · June 19, 2016

Mods on consoles will always be a touchy subject because of those who feel loyalty to the developer and those who feel the game should remain unchanged by others but the developers to keep it a fair even playing ground for all players.

You can blame this on the multiplayer groups and the sites that cater to them where they think playing a game is sport and takes high skill level and how a mod can reduce that skill to zero making that so called sports star a zero. As long as gamers act as if it is life/death about what their score/stat/trophy count/kill-death/win-loss is they will scream about anything that makes them less a god or star and less awesome. Which is what mods can and have done in many games. To them it is life or death and personal if they are the best or not...sad really since it is a game meant for simple fun and entertainment.. not a job or a chance to be a sports star....

AoEnwyr · June 19, 2016

@DrakeTheDragon Your response to Boomerizer really captures the essence of what is going on. I really struggle to understand how people can defend theft of any sort. However well presented your facts are though, you are right in that you will never change some people's attitudes.

I would just like to point out, as you have touched on mod authors' motivation, as well as a couple of other people: Mod Authors do actually publish some mods with the community foremost in their minds, not just as an afterthought. Particularly those people developing mods that fix broken quests/mechanics and improve general usability. Some mod authors very much care about giving to the community and benefiting others at the development stage of their mods, so I don't agree that people mod just for themselves first and others second.

I have made a couple of minor mods for Skyrim and only one so far for Fallout 4 so the following doesn't apply to me however I just want to point out the other thing mod theft costs some authors is their reputation. There are some very well know authors and it does put their reputation on the line when uncontrolled, out dated rip offs of their works is spread all around the place. This does have the potential to have impacts on employment opportunities, damage to trust built over years, damage to existing professional reputation for people who work in the industry and mod in their spare time etc.

Bethesda aside, this is probably the saddest thing in all of this. That everyday human beings can't be decent enough to each other to say "please" and "thank you". Instead it's just "give me or I'm gonna take it anyway!"

(edited for spelling because it's 1am here and I'm brain dead)

Edited June 19, 2016 by UlanX

phantompally76 · June 19, 2016

In response to post #39525245. #39528920, #39529290, #39529630, #39533865, #39542225, #39543125, #39543345, #39543435, #39544400 are all replies on the same post.

CliveBarker wrote:

In response to post #39505740. #39506695, #39506970, #39507980, #39508195, #39508525, #39508680, #39508790, #39509285, #39509720, #39510275, #39511760, #39511995, #39512010, #39512485, #39512650, #39512810, #39514085, #39514395, #39514900, #39515165, #39515295, #39515610, #39516210, #39516250, #39516375, #39518215, #39518480, #39520555, #39521910, #39522230, #39522760, #39524160 are all replies on the same post.

boomerizer wrote: OK, so, I read most of this. I know, TL;DR, I'm usually not one to skip, but most of this doesn't really apply to me. The thing with moderating etc, et al.

SO, I understand the whole stolen mods thing is bad. But, only "in a way."

Controversial, I know.

Here's why:
1) I've been using nexus probably on and off for the better part of 3 years-- though I don't really remember when I actually created my account to first mod Fallout: New Vegas-- I'm sure nobody cares anyway, so its not relevant. So I'll simply say: I don't know many modders by name.

Why is this relevant? Well, see, with 'stolen mods' on Xbox One (which I use, because I have a 2 Xbox Ones, and Xbox 360, a PS4, a /decent/ desktop computer, and 2 sub-par macbook pro laptops-- why duplicates? Well, I am married, and sometimes my wife and I like to play some games together.-- that last tidbit is irrelevant, but what /IS/ relevant is that I play many games, across many platforms. For example? I have Skyrim on Steam, I have Skyrim on the 360 (honestly, the only reason I still have the old thing). I play battlefield and the fallout games on both available platforms. Up until mods for console-- the only reason I played games on the PC was for that reason (if the game itself wasn't a PC exclusive.) Why? Console games are just far more easily accessible. I prefer to play them there, rather than worry about "will my computer run this?"

OK, so back on topic: I don't know mod authors by name. I mean, I do recognize some, like, say, Azar with hair mods. But that is pretty much, about it.

Why is this relevant? Because I just download them, and use them. I click like/favorite/endorse, whatever when I really like a mod, but other than that, I'm just a user. I appreciate all the mods created, sure, but I don't really look at the authors' names.

Here's the killer-- the part that will likely piss every mod author off.(but I mean well.)

I don't care if a mod has been stolen to be put up on the Xbox One site-- because to me, it is merely somebody throwing up a good mod onto a site when the author of the original PC mod hasn't taken the time of day to do it themselves. *gasp* I'm an douche for saying that, I know.

The biggest example I can say, of a mod I'd really like made (re)available is the NCR Veteran Ranger armor. I mean, it's the only mod I use on the PC that ISN'T readily available on Xbox. (I mean, I also have the Patriot Shield on PC and it isn't on xbox yet, but thats a story for another day.) Though, for a brief time,it had been, and the worst part is that it's not like the person who threw it on the console mod site claimed it was theirs. It was a mod that added several things-- and dudes, seriously, the description word limit doesn't really afford the uploaded to go into great detail.

Sure, the people that steal the mod and put it up on the console site could--SHOULD give credit where credit is due. But with that word limit, it really shouldn't be a priority. A description of what the mod is, and what it does, and how to use it should come first. THEN, if it can be done, sure, give credit where credit is due.

But mods are a free service, distributed free to a populace that I don't think really cares who makes the mods, just as long as they are made. I'd be more with you guys if the mods being stolen were being charged for. I know there is one dirtbag that was trying to encourage donations for stolen mods-- and yeah, OK, that is pathetic, and that guy (forgot the username) can rack off. But the way I see it, if its a mod that is on PC and isn't uploaded by the mod author due either to time, or they are a PC-Master-Race-r that doesn't think mods should be available to Console Peasants? Yeah, I don't care about how they feel-- its just someone making a good mod available to Xbox One.

Now, about this user unfriendliness on the bethesda.net/in-game mod browser?

Uh....what? I can use it just fine. Y for search. Use words to search for keywords. If mod is available. Click Download. How can it POSSIBLY be any easier to use?

In fact, I find it far easier to use than Nexus page or Nexus Mod Manager. Especially since with Skyrim mods, I ALSO need like 3 other programs to get certain mods to work-- LOOT, FNIS, SKSE. It's a nightmare most of the time, especially ENB's.

So, I guess what I mean to say is, if you care that much about stolen mods on Xbox One, be the first to make YOUR mods available on Xbox One before crying about your mod being stolen. Considering how easy that sounds...?

Makes me think most PC mod authors just don't give a flying stegosauras about the console community. When, y'know, at least in my case, I am both PC and Xbox. (I have a PS4 but, I really don't have anything worth repeated play.) I just want the mod available. I don't care who makes it available. Just that it is. And if it isn't available, or if a modder stops making it available for whatever reason, then, why even bother caring? If you care; make the effort to make it available. If you don't care to make it available for console, then don't cry out when someone else DOES make the effort to make it available. If the 'thief' is asking/demanding for payment/donations of some kind---or straight up saying "I made this! look at me! praise my awesome modding skillz!", yeah, OK, cry out all you want. But if its just a simple copy/paste upload with paraphrased description of the mod, why does it matter?

I don't know man, its all undue drama from both sides.

((Sorry I am all over the place. Rushed through, and without any real structure. Brain vomit.))

TLDR version:
Stop bitchin' if you don't make the effort to make it available. If you care enough to *censored*, but not enough to provide; why do it in the first place?
durge13 wrote: You don't seem to understand the stress put on modders when someone else starts distributing their mods. If that other person falls behind even a single version, it could mean the original author getting bug reports for things that have already been fixed, possibly leading to hours looking for the source of a bug that doesn't exist anymore. It has f*** all to do with availability to the masses (as you'd know if you read the whole post), modders can do what they want with their mods (within legal reason) and as always they have no reason to explain it to you why they do it that way. They could make it only available to people with the letter A at the start of their surname, and there is nothing you could say that would invalidate their choice to do so.

The fact is, stolen mods remove control from the original author, they may be changed slightly, they may be corrupted, out of date, and if an author has literally hundreds of thousands of people using their mod (like many on the Nexus do) then that can lead to unmanageable numbers of people asking about bugs that don't exist or features requests that have already been added.

It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be and I haven't covered even half the problems that can arise from people making their own stolen distributions of a mod.

Obviously this doesn't happen with every mod that is stolen but it happens enough that a blanket policy of banning those who distribute stolen mods (regardless of if they 'give credit' as it's really not about credit for most).
boomerizer wrote: Ok, well while I can understand that-- I don't like to download complex mods that require constant updates. Usually, just armor/clothing and weapons. I mean, how many times do you really need to update a helmet?

That said, you merely validated my own argument on author names. How does the original mod author get the number of people asking about bugs and s***? If ModAuthorA makes the mod, and ModTheifB steals the mod, and updates the mod then how do the people end up at ModAuthorA for support?

I mean, sounds to me, credit is very unnecessary if the users know where to go.
Ethreon wrote: What you boil down to - I don't give a damn what happens as long as I GET WHAT I WANT.

.. this is why aliens avoid us.
boomerizer wrote: Incorrect. Best analogy that I can come up with:

I buy a burger. I don't know the cooks name.
But I know the waiter or waitress.
I thank the waitress.
If she's nice, I tip the waitress.

The cook goes thankless.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the cook for providing me with a well seasoned and prepared meal. But in the end, all that matters is that it was provided. And the cook can live with that because he knows. He doesn't need the credit.
wsxcgy wrote: @bommerizer

but waitresses don't steal the burgers from the cook once they have made it. the cook gives the burger to the waitress so the consumer may enjoy it.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Even better boomer...

At your work place you finish a great job and take a break for a coffee and a snack.
Mean time a another person take your hard work and rush to the boss, bragging about his success!
He will be appreciated by a lot of people, maybe promoted, maybe the boss will give him a new office.

When you will return from your break, you will also have a reward, a new office... next to the toilet, because you have not done well your work and you will have to do all the dirty work from now on.

How you will feel it now ?!
boomerizer wrote: No, the cook leaves it on the counter/hotplate-- the cook doesn't care who ordered the burger, or even who gets the burger. He doesn't know where its going.

Then, the waitress delivers it to the table. But maybe, I ordered it, but then slid the plate to my wife or daughter, or a homeless person I invited to my table because it is payday and I felt generous.

In this case, the mod author uploads the mod to the internet, for everyone to download.

Now, I can download it from the original site, or I can download it from a ("stolen") redistribution-- it makes little difference to me. Because I don't look at author names. I merely check to make sure the download isn't dirty.
boomerizer wrote: Look, I'm not saying credit shouldn't be given where credit is due, in redistributed mods.

What I am mostly trying to convey is that unless the stolen mod is nefarious in nature, and the person is going out of their way to claim is as their own, it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds to me like mod authors are taking their works farrrrrrr toooooo seriously. And if thats how they feel, then perhaps they should make the effort to write their name in the mod-- there are plenty of mods that bring up pop up windows in the game "Welcome to FOCOM" for example. Can just say "This mod made by <> and distributed by <>".

I wouldn't leave my work unlabelled.

Oh, and a thought I just had:
At a job, I'd be getting paid. Money.

Here, its volunteer work. Nobody is really benefiting from 'stealing' a mod. I mean, seriously. In the best case scenario, the mod author gets more notoriety, because users search for the mod name (ie. Commonwealth Cuts, I had to search for because I couldn't find it on the nexus after downloading it on Xbox One). Because to be honest, I don't know the author name of Commonwealth Cuts.

The worst case, the mod author has to say "sorry, the only way I can fix your problem is if you uninstall THAT mod, and give me a bit of time to upload MY original version so that you may continue to enjoy my work."

So. Yeah.

boomerizer wrote: I also can't speak for how mods work, I know.

But I know that adding new 'physical' assets like armor, weapons, clothes, new workshop items-- those shouldn't really require tweaking between PC and Xbox. Fallout 4 is Fallout 4 either way you look at it.

Complex mods like quest lines, sure I can see where there might be some trouble. And worse, graphical enhancements-- yeah I get it. It's not just a simple port. But without only 2GB to play with, my only concern is adding physical assets, rather than trying to make the game look better-- because FO4 already looks pretty dang good. I wish I could download more than I have, though-- I sure would like to see quest mods like Skryims Falskaar and Lost City... but one of those mods is 2GB or more on its own.

Besides, you've created a mod, put a lot of work into it, and then uploaded it online-- your involvement is basically done. It's not like you have to worry about mass producing a physical object. Yet, you've made one product that now ANYONE can get for themselves. And if you've done your job right, there should be no need to fix anything.

You have no way of knowing if it works on console unless you own one yourself, upload your mod yourself, and test it, yourself. A lot of work that you might not want to do, but someone else already has? How does that add stress to you?

Nemesis8727 wrote: I agree with 95% of the things you say. The last 5% is the stuff I forgot after I read it.
I have created stuff in the past and I don't care how people use it or how they get it.
If they get it on some site no one uses (bethesda.net) where they wont thank me anyway if I took the time to upload it.
Or if they got it here on nexus, I don't care.
I can understand if creators do care but I think its just waste of energy to go complain on a site no one uses.
If I download a mod on nexus I look on the info, how to, FAQ and if I'm impressed I might look over the authors other mods but on a console I just want to press download.
EffELOfficial wrote: Wow. Flamewar. Right there. Your Burger analogy is more like the relationship between Mod Authors and the Nexus. The Nexus being the Waitress. Only difference is that the Cook's name is pasted on the plate, there.

Holy crap, that's an excellent idea, restaurants should do that.
Brabbit1987 wrote: I pretty much agree as well. I think this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is. In fact, I would say the over reaction just made the situation worse.

I also, think the easiest way to prevent this is to upload your mod before anyone else does.

Now the only reason I agree is because it's pretty much the only thing that can be done at the moment, unless you want to go through the process of taking down your mod uploaded by someone else.

I do think people should not be stealing. Let's say for example, the mod author doesn't want to make their mod available to consoles. I believe that should be respected. However, that is not the way things tend to work when it comes to things like this. Not everyone respects one another, and that honestly should be obvious.

It sort of similar in a way to piracy. Yes, it sucks, but as a developer you should be thinking ahead and how you will deal with it. I myself, would upload my own game so people can torrent it. I am more about getting my game out there, than I am for trying to make every last penny I possibly can.

So if you are a mod developer and you decide not to release it on consoles, you have to expect someone is going to do it for you, whether you like it or not. At least for now.

Bethesda has something in the works to lessen these issues. I doubt it will stop it entirely though.
boomerizer wrote: Maybe not in the manner that I think you mean. In a lot of restaurants, there are multiple people that work on your order. I used to work in a kitchen, at a resort-- up to the entire kitchen might have something to do with your order. One guy grills the meat, another one assembles it, someone else makes the sides, another person might make another side.... that, and some kitchen employees don't stick around long enough to make plastering a name on a plate cost effective. Notice how I'm getting into monetary value, now?

Mod authors don't have that concern, now do they? Money. Their product (mods) is free. And you can't steal that which is free.
boomerizer wrote: woah, brabbit. wish I'd seen this before posting to the one above you.

Right, there should be steps taken to prevent it, but like piracy, it can't be fully protected against. I mean, these state-of-the-art pirated copies of stuff are often still released even before the actual product is released. With games, online features are often forgone since that is the only way to verify a legit copy. Online authentication. Can't do that with mods, though-- as they are acquired digitally. How would you stop mod theft?

You can't stop thieves. In order to do that, you'd have to remove either the desire, or the opportunity. The only way to remove the opportunity is to not upload the mod at all. So you have to focus on deterring the desire to 'steal'. Best way to do that, is to be the first to upload your mod to the new medium. And if you don't like consoles, or just don't have the time, then you sort of have to concede the point.
Ethreon wrote: <<I'm ok with theft as long as I get what I want and the victim is given credit. What's the harm after all, I get what I want, everyone is happy.>>

:rolleyes:
boomerizer wrote: It's not theft because this s*** is free. There is no physical loss. You still have the mod page. You still have the mod assets on your computer. Oh my god, the pain.
Ethreon wrote: Please go back to the woods.

OP disagrees with you in clear terms.
Mod makers disagree with you in clear terms.
Beth disagrees with you in clear terms.
Law disagrees with you.
Common sense does too.
Billy1969 wrote: boomerizer, you're obviously a gamefaq console forum cesspool troll, please take your filth back there, k thx.
Brabbit1987 wrote: @Billy1969

Is name calling really necessary?
boomerizer wrote: Brabbit: Of course, it is necessary for the unintelligent to resort to name-calling, when they don't have an argument that can stand on its own merit.

Never been to GameFaq. At least, not knowingly.

I actually spend most of my time playing and enjoying games. In fact, before my first post here, today, I was playing Fallout 4. On my PC.

I love Bethesda games so much I own them on PC/Steam AND Xbox 360/One. I buy the games twice. Because I'm a gamer. (And because I'm married and sometimes play with-and-or-at-the-same-time-as my wife.)(And because I might have a gaming problem.)

BuffHamster wrote: What Ethreon said is quite true.

Try this logic on for size: If the mod authors are disrespected and the get angry enough with their content being bootlegged, "pffft! there goes your 'free' mods" ie; no longer available to the public. You now have to pay for them with Bitcoin."

Epic Fail in Logic. If the burger was not cooked well, or the meal was ice cold when it reached you, or was not prepared to your liking:
Do you still tip? Yes?, what a rube.
Do you complain to the wait staff? Awesome, where does that complaint go? Ah yes, the wait staff reports back to the kitchen staff.
Tips? Guess what? They are usually shared with the kitchen staff, so, bad preparation and poorly cleared tables = no tips, and later, a decline in the customer base followed by the establishment shutting down and everyone on the street.

You really need to think the apathy thing through here, rather than use superficial excuses for that feeling of entitlement. The Mod Authors owe you nothing, you on the other hand owe them, at the least, a modicum of thankful respect for creating a product that you obviously do not have the ability to do yourself.
EDIT:

Another epic fail in logic. Alternative to "uploading it first", how about "not uploading at all"?, or uploading content that turns your console into a doorstop?
Mods that use external requirements, such as Fallout 4 Script Extender, will not run on the console, ... accept it.
There are many ways the mod author can prevent their work from being pirated, and many have already taken this route.
boomerizer wrote: You're assuming the burger is ill prepared.

The mods I download are typically complete, and not broken-- as I've yet to download an incomplete or broken mod on my console. (well, I've downloaded a Hide Pipboy one that didn't work, but the answer to that was simply Disable and Delete.)

If something is broken or does not work, I disable or uninstall as appropriate, and leave it at that. If its a mod I really like or want to see, I check on it later. I don't harass the author. I just wait for it to be usable.

But that is because I know that modding can be risky. It can break the savegame, or even the game itself. If something doesn't work right, I move on. If my game gets broke, I reinstall and move on.

What a monster I am.
Billy1969 wrote: Actually I was wrong, it's not a gamefaq console forum troll, excuse me for that, seeing his constant repeating that mod stealing is no theft, in more or less difficult words that the unintelligent like me don't understand I stand corrected he is in fact Pobatti aka MasterMagnus aka a dozen other account names, the console Jesus.

EDIT: and he even uses multiple accounts to talk to himself and pat himself on the back, LMAO too funny! Seriously some peeps should be locked up in a straight jacket and the key thrown away in a deep pit.
moddersrule1969 wrote: Now I'm hungry. Thanks.
BuffHamster wrote:

No, just an uninformed fool who insists on swimming against the tide of opinion, and law.

Whether you personally think that because it is free, therfore it can not be stolen, does not fly in the courts. It has been explained to you over and over again, it is illegal, that is, posting someone else's work and claiming it as your own is called plagiarism and in many countries, it is against the Law. You can be prosecuted. You can be sued.

Is that what you are supporting? Piracy? Theft of Intellectual Property? Are you advocating that it is perfectly okay to do this?

Is that the corner that you wish to paint yourself into?
_______________________________________________
@moddersrule1969: Burgers and fries on me. want Coke or Diet Coke?
iRodd wrote: Let's put this simply: I made this mod. It's mine. I do whatever I want with it. You don't have any rights to distribute it. No, I don't care whether it's good or it's bad, if people want it or not. The mod is mine, and I decide what to do with it. If I don't want console users to use it just because I'm idiot and I dislike them, or there actually are reasons for that, I'm the one who decides it. Capiche?
boomerizer wrote: Nope. Just that I'm not going to be held to a standard that the modders aren't going to be.

Wanna prove to me you're not against stolen mods? How bout we start taking down mods that contain stolen, plagiarized content. See a more recent post of mine that lists a couple of these mods. But if you've been on here long enough, a list doesn't really need to be compiled. You'll already know some.
kingtobbe wrote: @boomerizer:
What you don't seem to realize is that creative control of a mod, getting the credit for it is what leads many mod makers to keep chasing the content creating dragon so to speak. Their content is their baby. If you take that away from then and even invert those positive feelings that mod maker will eventually stop making content. Which will lead to very little content available for everyone including console users, especially since console users are unable to create content without also being a PC user.

I don't even think that mod pirating as some have called this is a fair comparison. Mods are not commercially produced by people who do work with money as incentive. Thus it's far more destructive to mod making than it is for game and software developers (and that is saying a lot as it can be quite devastating for smaller studios and devs).

Mods that have more files than a plugin require more work than simply a quick repack with XB1 appropriate compression of archives. For example, a simple retexture of say Kellogs armor quickly de-saturated (Ctrl+Shift+U, Ctrl+S - done!) in Photoshop to make it black (you know the first mods that appeared on Nexus when FO4 was new) consists of just one file that you normally on PC just have to put in ..\Data\Textures\Armor\Kellogg\ and you are good to go. For it to work on XB1 which requires that you pack files to BA2 archives in the Creation Kit you need to make a plugin (esp) and setup a material swap pointing to a custom material file (bgsm). And this without mentioning that a author might have to consider what resolution and DDS compression that works best on XB1 and other performance issues that may require a lot of tweaking to get just right.

This is just to have a very simple mod originally consisting of a single dds-file. Most mods are far more complex and thus require far more work to function relatively similar on XB1 as it did on PC.

Additional reasons could that I should mentioned are for example:

- You are using tidbits of content by another author(s) that you either by legal reasons or just out of courtesy need to ask for a new permission or try remaking it yourself. Most permissions requires a separate permission for you to upload it to another site. If someones steals your mod you will get in trouble with authors you have permissions to use work for on Nexus but not off-site.

- You are waiting for Bethesda to update their platform so it's not so damn buggy and limiting in it's modpage functions. 2000 characters are not enough to describe most mods especially considering that users can't see what files are included when they install it I personally would like to describe what files a mod adds/changes as this will help to manage load orders and mod compatibility. And more advanced XB1 users might want to know what exactly they are downloading.

- The CK is in open beta and are not very reliable, especially when it comes to uploading your mod to another platform, I've had files both missing from archives or unrelated files being added despite not selecting them in the file list prior to packaging a mod. Other people have way more serious problems and thus many are currently delayed in their work due to this.
- Some authors are cunts. While true it doesn't justify stealing from them. It only justify you not interacting with them in the community.

Conclusion, stealing mods are ruining for everyone. I've said it many times, to both authors and users, this is a asymmetrical symbiosis. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or potentially could at least. If you can't see that you haven't understood whats going on and should refrain from commenting on the issue further until you have, or just ignore it. This issue, seen from both users and authors perspective is simple, you are either part of the community or against it. And that is just without touching the legality of the issue which Bethesda has made very clear.
boomerizer wrote: @kingtobbe

Thank you. You've worded it in a way that I understand better than whats been flung my way today. You have effectively illustrated to me how it is.

I'm still on the 'if credit is given' side, then I don't rightly care. But now I'm not so.. what is the word here? Wanting? Looking for understanding.

I'm sure many other posters here will be relieved-- I'm out, for now. I need food. And to wreck some super mutants. And to ignore Preston Garvey some more.
HadToRegister wrote: @OP, in SIX YEARS, you've endorsed ONCE.

iRodd wrote: Ok, you're trying to convince me that I use stolen mods too. Cool, maybe I do, but that's pretty irrelevant. Now, tell me: why stealing mods wouldn't be bad? For example: I created a mod and a lot of people liked it, then they start asking for a console version. If it is possible, I have the time, the means and the will, I'll port it. Else, I could trust someone else to do so, just like a lot of armor mods out there. Or, for any reason, not port it at all. This is fine, you wouldn't even be able to use my mod if I hadn't uploaded it to the Nexus in the first place, to respect my wish is the least you can do.

You can't just download the mod and upload it somewhere else, don't you see? You're disrespecting the author, who you should be grateful to for creating the mod. You can't just think "Hey, he would like to see his mod being used everywhere, so I'll upload it elsewhere!", you aren't the author nor know how he feels and thinks. If you really want port a mod to a console, ask the author first. Stop thinking just about yourself, I can barely believe you're married that way.
Roblade wrote: The cook sure the hell does care who does and doesn't get the burger. We like to know when people like boomerizer are ordering. I think nexus should have a Banned from mod list for authors to reject users, keeping them from being able to download track or comment on a mod. or the authors entire collection of mods. As a Chef I have that, it is a little sign on my front glass, it says " I reserve the right to refuse service." I've only ever used that right twice, after all you can't refuse everyone and stay in business, but I've made some very public refusals, once tossed out a man for fondling one of my waitresses.
@boomerizer: What you, and many, many others, apparently don't seem to understand is, it all boils down to a matter of respect.

The legality arguments, laying out of the rules, the naming conventions, if it's called theft, piracy or what-have-you, and all the funny analogies people may come up with, are all fine and dandy, but... ultimately they don't matter.

What does matter is, plain and simply, these authors have no reason to be sharing their works with you, none, nada, at all, despite maybe their own willingness to share. Sharing is not part of the hobby, it's only an afterthought. They mod for themselves first and foremost, and then, out of the goodness of their heart or whatever, decide to go the extra mile and make it usable by others, share it, and maintain comments sections to offer support and perhaps also hear you out on suggestions or ideas for improvements. But at the end of the day "you", as in "the users", are not needed in the equation and can and will, from an author's point of view, very easily be eliminated again at any point in time, and it will only ever be a win to themselves, a loss only to you.

It doesn't matter "why" they decided to distribute and manage their mods in so-or-so ways, or what places they choose to have their mods available at or not. They created it, they decide, you "respect" it, period.

If you don't, and make yourself more of a bother than it's worth for them, which is where you're heading with your attitude, and everybody agreeing with it while not seeing the big picture in the background, you eliminate their desire to share with you. They don't have any reason to, it's not like you're giving them anything back for it, not even a thanks mostly, and they most definitely do not benefit from your usage of their mods. Instead it "costs" them, actually, time, effort, and in your and other people's cases also nerves and heartache a lot.

If you disrespect them and their work as atrociously as to actively support someone who "stole" their work, as you do, no matter what he's going to do with it, he took it without asking first, and that's blatant disrespect to those people, sometimes even doing something that's completely against their expressed wishes, then "you" are making yourself their enemy and in their eyes no longer deserving access to their mods.

With increasing numbers of "you" their desire to keep sharing rapidly dwindles. And as it's absolutely no loss at all to them to just stop, at one point sooner or later they will. And that's where you're heading, if you keep at it, increasingly less and less mods shared with the public, for the public is becoming more a bother than the effort is worth. And a gain it never was.

The number of authors speaking up against your mindset in here should be telling, but apparently it's not. Be assured though that the number you're seeing here is only the pinnacle of the iceberg, as they say, and a lot more even are just silently sitting back and watching you people now, then making their decision if publicly sharing is still "worth it" in their eyes or not. As we speak, and the things on Bethesda.net keep going on the way they are now for only a little longer, the balance is quickly tipping towards your deficit, and in numbers you can't even fathom in your weirdest nightmares. Keep up with this attitude of your's, stay a part of the problem instead of helping in coming to a solution, and they'll soon become reality.

You're happy to see mods finally coming to consoles? Guess again, they won't be for much longer, if people can't even be bothered to give at least the minimum amount of respect to those who create these mods. You think this situation is blown out of proportion? Think again, because these creators disagree. You think they shouldn't care as much as they do? Guess what, but they do! And they won't ever stop just because you say so.

This blatant disrespect thrown at these benevolent people in scales beyond your wildest imagination right now really cannot be taken by everybody, and by most others not endlessly so either. It gets to their heart, it turns them away, it makes them no longer "want" to share.

Is this what you're aiming for? 'Cause then, congratulations, you're achieving it.

Thanks for coming in and try to enter some empathy and reasoning to this individual.

At this point this is just becoming disgusting. No matter how obvious and strong the answers we give to him, he just keep answering with the same fallacies over and over and over.

I wish he was banned but at the end this doesn't fix anything since sadly, many children share his views. At this point I will just ignore his existence and any words he writes.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wasn't talking to this one individual exclusively though. The "you" I used in my post can also be directed at all the others in here who expressed a similar mindset or expressed their agreement with his, as damaging and detrimental as it is. If I reach only one and make them see the authors' side of the problem, my post will have served a purpose.

I have experience in talking with brick walls, the situation isn't new to me. My own brother is a prime example, the kind of who'd claim gravity'd work upwards and when shown a stone dropping down would call physics malfunctioning in the area or something. You can't talk reason into these.

They won't be banned until they break the terms, although the damage they currently are causing is actually rather massive. They don't see it like I do every day 24/7 discussed among the authors in their forums, how much in danger the very idea of mods for FO4 publicly shared already actually is thanks to them and their ilk, so I tried informing them and opening their eyes, but it mostly fell on deaf ears of course as usual.

The Vampire Dante wrote:
I've removed about as much of his comments from here as I felt neccessary, they were becoming needlessly distracting and antagonistic to many of the other participants in the topic.

Kalell wrote: I don't consider myself a mod author (I've only uploaded one mod of my own) but I have access to the mod author forum and they're not happy. What people don't seem to realize is when they finally get feed up no one will even hear about it, the mods will just start disappearing.

mlee3141 wrote: Nice going, boomerizer. You managed to convince me that the user community is beyond salvaging. I'm done sharing; there's nothing more to be said here.

phantompally76 wrote: Deleting someone's comments simply because the echo chamber doesn't agree with them is every bit as unethical as mod piracy, in my humble opinion.

None of boomerizer's comments were any more antagonistic or inflammatory than Dark0ne's OP. And while I didn't really agree with much of what boomerizer was saying, the behavior of his respondents definitely caused me to respect his thoughts just a little more than those attacking him, even if I don't agree with him. Members of this community are acting a hundred times worse than the #modgate pitchfork brigade at their strongest, all in the name of so-called righteousness.

The last time I checked, this was an open discussion...not an "I agree with you Dark0ne, you're doing a terrific job pissing off Bethesda and burning your (our) bridges" thread. If both sides of the argument aren't allowed to have their say without being moderated, then what's the point? This essay isn't even being circle jerked on reddit right now (which SHOULD tell absolutely everyone here something), so this is the only place to discuss the issue. And it's not a black and white issue. I know you want it to be. I wish it were. But it isn't.

This is a controversial topic, made a thousand times worse by a controversial essay, written in the heat of the moment with no consideration or regard for the consequences. So if the comments are open to only one side of the debate, please let the community know. Let ME know, so I can stop interrupting your echo chamber party with common sense and rationale.

Kraynic wrote: @Phantom I agree that purging someone's comments can cause problems. However, I don't see how it is a problem in this case. Having a really loud voice promoting piracy and saying no rules apply probably isn't a good thing to have going on either.

Yeah, there have been some pretty rough comments on both sides. That doesn't make one individual's stance more reasonable or right just because there were rude people on the other side.

phantompally76 wrote: Regardless, that's not how an open discussion works.

Again, if this is not an open discussion, then say so.

wulfharth wrote: It wouldn't break my heart if you wanted to see yourself out.

Telling artists that they have no right to the control and distribution of their work is fascist. That is very black and white. Bethesda is an American company. The laws are pretty cut and dry here. Stealing is illegal. Copyright infringement is illegal. Piracy is illegal. Call it what you want. It is wrong.

There are no subtle nuances to this issue. I know you really want there to be, but that comes from a place of greed deep down in your heart. You want mods on console. That is and will always be at the discretion of each artist.

hangman04 wrote: it's the same shiate all over again, from when people stole good modes from nexus like sites and posted them on steam for money.... the exact people like boomerizer where downloading them and not giving a crap...

some may say that it was a different thing since it involved money, but now it may not be about money (YET!) but it is about pride! and sometimes pride can be more powerful than money....

the bad thing is that beth by their non action actually endorsed this s#*! on their platform.

@wulfharth

Read my comment again. I disagree with almost everything boomerizer was saying.

But that isn't my issue.

YOU are my issue. People like you are my issue.

You're not acting like advocates for modders' rights. You are acting like petulant children. You're acting like self-righteous bullies. You're acting like stereotypical neckbeard keyboard warriors.

You throw the word "fascist" around carelessly. From where I'm standing, YOU are the ones acting like fascists, not the devils' advocates. They have just as much a right to make their voices heard as you do, and just because you oppose their messages doesn't mean that YOU get to dictate what they can or cannot express in this open forum.

Outside our little bubble, people are talking. And they're not talking about mod piracy or console gamers vs. pc gamers. They're talking about what a bunch of over-reacting crybabies the nexus modding community has become. And I don't like that.

I oppose mod piracy. But I oppose rash stupidity and heavy-handed censorship even more.

This is NOT how you get Bethesda's attention. This is NOT how you impact change on copyright legislation. This is NOT how you treat members of this community just because they don't agree with you.

AoEnwyr · June 19, 2016

In response to post #39525245. #39528920, #39529290, #39529630, #39533865, #39542225, #39543125, #39543345, #39543435, #39544400, #39545515 are all replies on the same post.

CliveBarker wrote:

In response to post #39505740. #39506695, #39506970, #39507980, #39508195, #39508525, #39508680, #39508790, #39509285, #39509720, #39510275, #39511760, #39511995, #39512010, #39512485, #39512650, #39512810, #39514085, #39514395, #39514900, #39515165, #39515295, #39515610, #39516210, #39516250, #39516375, #39518215, #39518480, #39520555, #39521910, #39522230, #39522760, #39524160 are all replies on the same post.

boomerizer wrote: OK, so, I read most of this. I know, TL;DR, I'm usually not one to skip, but most of this doesn't really apply to me. The thing with moderating etc, et al.

SO, I understand the whole stolen mods thing is bad. But, only "in a way."

Controversial, I know.

Here's why:
1) I've been using nexus probably on and off for the better part of 3 years-- though I don't really remember when I actually created my account to first mod Fallout: New Vegas-- I'm sure nobody cares anyway, so its not relevant. So I'll simply say: I don't know many modders by name.

Why is this relevant? Well, see, with 'stolen mods' on Xbox One (which I use, because I have a 2 Xbox Ones, and Xbox 360, a PS4, a /decent/ desktop computer, and 2 sub-par macbook pro laptops-- why duplicates? Well, I am married, and sometimes my wife and I like to play some games together.-- that last tidbit is irrelevant, but what /IS/ relevant is that I play many games, across many platforms. For example? I have Skyrim on Steam, I have Skyrim on the 360 (honestly, the only reason I still have the old thing). I play battlefield and the fallout games on both available platforms. Up until mods for console-- the only reason I played games on the PC was for that reason (if the game itself wasn't a PC exclusive.) Why? Console games are just far more easily accessible. I prefer to play them there, rather than worry about "will my computer run this?"

OK, so back on topic: I don't know mod authors by name. I mean, I do recognize some, like, say, Azar with hair mods. But that is pretty much, about it.

Why is this relevant? Because I just download them, and use them. I click like/favorite/endorse, whatever when I really like a mod, but other than that, I'm just a user. I appreciate all the mods created, sure, but I don't really look at the authors' names.

Here's the killer-- the part that will likely piss every mod author off.(but I mean well.)

I don't care if a mod has been stolen to be put up on the Xbox One site-- because to me, it is merely somebody throwing up a good mod onto a site when the author of the original PC mod hasn't taken the time of day to do it themselves. *gasp* I'm an douche for saying that, I know.

The biggest example I can say, of a mod I'd really like made (re)available is the NCR Veteran Ranger armor. I mean, it's the only mod I use on the PC that ISN'T readily available on Xbox. (I mean, I also have the Patriot Shield on PC and it isn't on xbox yet, but thats a story for another day.) Though, for a brief time,it had been, and the worst part is that it's not like the person who threw it on the console mod site claimed it was theirs. It was a mod that added several things-- and dudes, seriously, the description word limit doesn't really afford the uploaded to go into great detail.

Sure, the people that steal the mod and put it up on the console site could--SHOULD give credit where credit is due. But with that word limit, it really shouldn't be a priority. A description of what the mod is, and what it does, and how to use it should come first. THEN, if it can be done, sure, give credit where credit is due.

But mods are a free service, distributed free to a populace that I don't think really cares who makes the mods, just as long as they are made. I'd be more with you guys if the mods being stolen were being charged for. I know there is one dirtbag that was trying to encourage donations for stolen mods-- and yeah, OK, that is pathetic, and that guy (forgot the username) can rack off. But the way I see it, if its a mod that is on PC and isn't uploaded by the mod author due either to time, or they are a PC-Master-Race-r that doesn't think mods should be available to Console Peasants? Yeah, I don't care about how they feel-- its just someone making a good mod available to Xbox One.

Now, about this user unfriendliness on the bethesda.net/in-game mod browser?

Uh....what? I can use it just fine. Y for search. Use words to search for keywords. If mod is available. Click Download. How can it POSSIBLY be any easier to use?

In fact, I find it far easier to use than Nexus page or Nexus Mod Manager. Especially since with Skyrim mods, I ALSO need like 3 other programs to get certain mods to work-- LOOT, FNIS, SKSE. It's a nightmare most of the time, especially ENB's.

So, I guess what I mean to say is, if you care that much about stolen mods on Xbox One, be the first to make YOUR mods available on Xbox One before crying about your mod being stolen. Considering how easy that sounds...?

Makes me think most PC mod authors just don't give a flying stegosauras about the console community. When, y'know, at least in my case, I am both PC and Xbox. (I have a PS4 but, I really don't have anything worth repeated play.) I just want the mod available. I don't care who makes it available. Just that it is. And if it isn't available, or if a modder stops making it available for whatever reason, then, why even bother caring? If you care; make the effort to make it available. If you don't care to make it available for console, then don't cry out when someone else DOES make the effort to make it available. If the 'thief' is asking/demanding for payment/donations of some kind---or straight up saying "I made this! look at me! praise my awesome modding skillz!", yeah, OK, cry out all you want. But if its just a simple copy/paste upload with paraphrased description of the mod, why does it matter?

I don't know man, its all undue drama from both sides.

((Sorry I am all over the place. Rushed through, and without any real structure. Brain vomit.))

TLDR version:
Stop bitchin' if you don't make the effort to make it available. If you care enough to *censored*, but not enough to provide; why do it in the first place?
durge13 wrote: You don't seem to understand the stress put on modders when someone else starts distributing their mods. If that other person falls behind even a single version, it could mean the original author getting bug reports for things that have already been fixed, possibly leading to hours looking for the source of a bug that doesn't exist anymore. It has f*** all to do with availability to the masses (as you'd know if you read the whole post), modders can do what they want with their mods (within legal reason) and as always they have no reason to explain it to you why they do it that way. They could make it only available to people with the letter A at the start of their surname, and there is nothing you could say that would invalidate their choice to do so.

The fact is, stolen mods remove control from the original author, they may be changed slightly, they may be corrupted, out of date, and if an author has literally hundreds of thousands of people using their mod (like many on the Nexus do) then that can lead to unmanageable numbers of people asking about bugs that don't exist or features requests that have already been added.

It's not as simple a problem as you make it out to be and I haven't covered even half the problems that can arise from people making their own stolen distributions of a mod.

Obviously this doesn't happen with every mod that is stolen but it happens enough that a blanket policy of banning those who distribute stolen mods (regardless of if they 'give credit' as it's really not about credit for most).
boomerizer wrote: Ok, well while I can understand that-- I don't like to download complex mods that require constant updates. Usually, just armor/clothing and weapons. I mean, how many times do you really need to update a helmet?

That said, you merely validated my own argument on author names. How does the original mod author get the number of people asking about bugs and s***? If ModAuthorA makes the mod, and ModTheifB steals the mod, and updates the mod then how do the people end up at ModAuthorA for support?

I mean, sounds to me, credit is very unnecessary if the users know where to go.
Ethreon wrote: What you boil down to - I don't give a damn what happens as long as I GET WHAT I WANT.

.. this is why aliens avoid us.
boomerizer wrote: Incorrect. Best analogy that I can come up with:

I buy a burger. I don't know the cooks name.
But I know the waiter or waitress.
I thank the waitress.
If she's nice, I tip the waitress.

The cook goes thankless.

Doesn't mean I don't appreciate the cook for providing me with a well seasoned and prepared meal. But in the end, all that matters is that it was provided. And the cook can live with that because he knows. He doesn't need the credit.
wsxcgy wrote: @bommerizer

but waitresses don't steal the burgers from the cook once they have made it. the cook gives the burger to the waitress so the consumer may enjoy it.
CaladanAnduril wrote: Even better boomer...

At your work place you finish a great job and take a break for a coffee and a snack.
Mean time a another person take your hard work and rush to the boss, bragging about his success!
He will be appreciated by a lot of people, maybe promoted, maybe the boss will give him a new office.

When you will return from your break, you will also have a reward, a new office... next to the toilet, because you have not done well your work and you will have to do all the dirty work from now on.

How you will feel it now ?!
boomerizer wrote: No, the cook leaves it on the counter/hotplate-- the cook doesn't care who ordered the burger, or even who gets the burger. He doesn't know where its going.

Then, the waitress delivers it to the table. But maybe, I ordered it, but then slid the plate to my wife or daughter, or a homeless person I invited to my table because it is payday and I felt generous.

In this case, the mod author uploads the mod to the internet, for everyone to download.

Now, I can download it from the original site, or I can download it from a ("stolen") redistribution-- it makes little difference to me. Because I don't look at author names. I merely check to make sure the download isn't dirty.
boomerizer wrote: Look, I'm not saying credit shouldn't be given where credit is due, in redistributed mods.

What I am mostly trying to convey is that unless the stolen mod is nefarious in nature, and the person is going out of their way to claim is as their own, it shouldn't be a problem. It sounds to me like mod authors are taking their works farrrrrrr toooooo seriously. And if thats how they feel, then perhaps they should make the effort to write their name in the mod-- there are plenty of mods that bring up pop up windows in the game "Welcome to FOCOM" for example. Can just say "This mod made by <> and distributed by <>".

I wouldn't leave my work unlabelled.

Oh, and a thought I just had:
At a job, I'd be getting paid. Money.

Here, its volunteer work. Nobody is really benefiting from 'stealing' a mod. I mean, seriously. In the best case scenario, the mod author gets more notoriety, because users search for the mod name (ie. Commonwealth Cuts, I had to search for because I couldn't find it on the nexus after downloading it on Xbox One). Because to be honest, I don't know the author name of Commonwealth Cuts.

The worst case, the mod author has to say "sorry, the only way I can fix your problem is if you uninstall THAT mod, and give me a bit of time to upload MY original version so that you may continue to enjoy my work."

So. Yeah.

boomerizer wrote: I also can't speak for how mods work, I know.

But I know that adding new 'physical' assets like armor, weapons, clothes, new workshop items-- those shouldn't really require tweaking between PC and Xbox. Fallout 4 is Fallout 4 either way you look at it.

Complex mods like quest lines, sure I can see where there might be some trouble. And worse, graphical enhancements-- yeah I get it. It's not just a simple port. But without only 2GB to play with, my only concern is adding physical assets, rather than trying to make the game look better-- because FO4 already looks pretty dang good. I wish I could download more than I have, though-- I sure would like to see quest mods like Skryims Falskaar and Lost City... but one of those mods is 2GB or more on its own.

Besides, you've created a mod, put a lot of work into it, and then uploaded it online-- your involvement is basically done. It's not like you have to worry about mass producing a physical object. Yet, you've made one product that now ANYONE can get for themselves. And if you've done your job right, there should be no need to fix anything.

You have no way of knowing if it works on console unless you own one yourself, upload your mod yourself, and test it, yourself. A lot of work that you might not want to do, but someone else already has? How does that add stress to you?

Nemesis8727 wrote: I agree with 95% of the things you say. The last 5% is the stuff I forgot after I read it.
I have created stuff in the past and I don't care how people use it or how they get it.
If they get it on some site no one uses (bethesda.net) where they wont thank me anyway if I took the time to upload it.
Or if they got it here on nexus, I don't care.
I can understand if creators do care but I think its just waste of energy to go complain on a site no one uses.
If I download a mod on nexus I look on the info, how to, FAQ and if I'm impressed I might look over the authors other mods but on a console I just want to press download.
EffELOfficial wrote: Wow. Flamewar. Right there. Your Burger analogy is more like the relationship between Mod Authors and the Nexus. The Nexus being the Waitress. Only difference is that the Cook's name is pasted on the plate, there.

Holy crap, that's an excellent idea, restaurants should do that.
Brabbit1987 wrote: I pretty much agree as well. I think this is being made into a much bigger deal than it actually is. In fact, I would say the over reaction just made the situation worse.

I also, think the easiest way to prevent this is to upload your mod before anyone else does.

Now the only reason I agree is because it's pretty much the only thing that can be done at the moment, unless you want to go through the process of taking down your mod uploaded by someone else.

I do think people should not be stealing. Let's say for example, the mod author doesn't want to make their mod available to consoles. I believe that should be respected. However, that is not the way things tend to work when it comes to things like this. Not everyone respects one another, and that honestly should be obvious.

It sort of similar in a way to piracy. Yes, it sucks, but as a developer you should be thinking ahead and how you will deal with it. I myself, would upload my own game so people can torrent it. I am more about getting my game out there, than I am for trying to make every last penny I possibly can.

So if you are a mod developer and you decide not to release it on consoles, you have to expect someone is going to do it for you, whether you like it or not. At least for now.

Bethesda has something in the works to lessen these issues. I doubt it will stop it entirely though.
boomerizer wrote: Maybe not in the manner that I think you mean. In a lot of restaurants, there are multiple people that work on your order. I used to work in a kitchen, at a resort-- up to the entire kitchen might have something to do with your order. One guy grills the meat, another one assembles it, someone else makes the sides, another person might make another side.... that, and some kitchen employees don't stick around long enough to make plastering a name on a plate cost effective. Notice how I'm getting into monetary value, now?

Mod authors don't have that concern, now do they? Money. Their product (mods) is free. And you can't steal that which is free.
boomerizer wrote: woah, brabbit. wish I'd seen this before posting to the one above you.

Right, there should be steps taken to prevent it, but like piracy, it can't be fully protected against. I mean, these state-of-the-art pirated copies of stuff are often still released even before the actual product is released. With games, online features are often forgone since that is the only way to verify a legit copy. Online authentication. Can't do that with mods, though-- as they are acquired digitally. How would you stop mod theft?

You can't stop thieves. In order to do that, you'd have to remove either the desire, or the opportunity. The only way to remove the opportunity is to not upload the mod at all. So you have to focus on deterring the desire to 'steal'. Best way to do that, is to be the first to upload your mod to the new medium. And if you don't like consoles, or just don't have the time, then you sort of have to concede the point.
Ethreon wrote: <<I'm ok with theft as long as I get what I want and the victim is given credit. What's the harm after all, I get what I want, everyone is happy.>>

:rolleyes:
boomerizer wrote: It's not theft because this s*** is free. There is no physical loss. You still have the mod page. You still have the mod assets on your computer. Oh my god, the pain.
Ethreon wrote: Please go back to the woods.

OP disagrees with you in clear terms.
Mod makers disagree with you in clear terms.
Beth disagrees with you in clear terms.
Law disagrees with you.
Common sense does too.
Billy1969 wrote: boomerizer, you're obviously a gamefaq console forum cesspool troll, please take your filth back there, k thx.
Brabbit1987 wrote: @Billy1969

Is name calling really necessary?
boomerizer wrote: Brabbit: Of course, it is necessary for the unintelligent to resort to name-calling, when they don't have an argument that can stand on its own merit.

Never been to GameFaq. At least, not knowingly.

I actually spend most of my time playing and enjoying games. In fact, before my first post here, today, I was playing Fallout 4. On my PC.

I love Bethesda games so much I own them on PC/Steam AND Xbox 360/One. I buy the games twice. Because I'm a gamer. (And because I'm married and sometimes play with-and-or-at-the-same-time-as my wife.)(And because I might have a gaming problem.)

BuffHamster wrote: What Ethreon said is quite true.

Try this logic on for size: If the mod authors are disrespected and the get angry enough with their content being bootlegged, "pffft! there goes your 'free' mods" ie; no longer available to the public. You now have to pay for them with Bitcoin."

Epic Fail in Logic. If the burger was not cooked well, or the meal was ice cold when it reached you, or was not prepared to your liking:
Do you still tip? Yes?, what a rube.
Do you complain to the wait staff? Awesome, where does that complaint go? Ah yes, the wait staff reports back to the kitchen staff.
Tips? Guess what? They are usually shared with the kitchen staff, so, bad preparation and poorly cleared tables = no tips, and later, a decline in the customer base followed by the establishment shutting down and everyone on the street.

You really need to think the apathy thing through here, rather than use superficial excuses for that feeling of entitlement. The Mod Authors owe you nothing, you on the other hand owe them, at the least, a modicum of thankful respect for creating a product that you obviously do not have the ability to do yourself.
EDIT:

Another epic fail in logic. Alternative to "uploading it first", how about "not uploading at all"?, or uploading content that turns your console into a doorstop?
Mods that use external requirements, such as Fallout 4 Script Extender, will not run on the console, ... accept it.
There are many ways the mod author can prevent their work from being pirated, and many have already taken this route.
boomerizer wrote: You're assuming the burger is ill prepared.

The mods I download are typically complete, and not broken-- as I've yet to download an incomplete or broken mod on my console. (well, I've downloaded a Hide Pipboy one that didn't work, but the answer to that was simply Disable and Delete.)

If something is broken or does not work, I disable or uninstall as appropriate, and leave it at that. If its a mod I really like or want to see, I check on it later. I don't harass the author. I just wait for it to be usable.

But that is because I know that modding can be risky. It can break the savegame, or even the game itself. If something doesn't work right, I move on. If my game gets broke, I reinstall and move on.

What a monster I am.
Billy1969 wrote: Actually I was wrong, it's not a gamefaq console forum troll, excuse me for that, seeing his constant repeating that mod stealing is no theft, in more or less difficult words that the unintelligent like me don't understand I stand corrected he is in fact Pobatti aka MasterMagnus aka a dozen other account names, the console Jesus.

EDIT: and he even uses multiple accounts to talk to himself and pat himself on the back, LMAO too funny! Seriously some peeps should be locked up in a straight jacket and the key thrown away in a deep pit.
moddersrule1969 wrote: Now I'm hungry. Thanks.
BuffHamster wrote:

No, just an uninformed fool who insists on swimming against the tide of opinion, and law.

Whether you personally think that because it is free, therfore it can not be stolen, does not fly in the courts. It has been explained to you over and over again, it is illegal, that is, posting someone else's work and claiming it as your own is called plagiarism and in many countries, it is against the Law. You can be prosecuted. You can be sued.

Is that what you are supporting? Piracy? Theft of Intellectual Property? Are you advocating that it is perfectly okay to do this?

Is that the corner that you wish to paint yourself into?
_______________________________________________
@moddersrule1969: Burgers and fries on me. want Coke or Diet Coke?
iRodd wrote: Let's put this simply: I made this mod. It's mine. I do whatever I want with it. You don't have any rights to distribute it. No, I don't care whether it's good or it's bad, if people want it or not. The mod is mine, and I decide what to do with it. If I don't want console users to use it just because I'm idiot and I dislike them, or there actually are reasons for that, I'm the one who decides it. Capiche?
boomerizer wrote: Nope. Just that I'm not going to be held to a standard that the modders aren't going to be.

Wanna prove to me you're not against stolen mods? How bout we start taking down mods that contain stolen, plagiarized content. See a more recent post of mine that lists a couple of these mods. But if you've been on here long enough, a list doesn't really need to be compiled. You'll already know some.
kingtobbe wrote: @boomerizer:
What you don't seem to realize is that creative control of a mod, getting the credit for it is what leads many mod makers to keep chasing the content creating dragon so to speak. Their content is their baby. If you take that away from then and even invert those positive feelings that mod maker will eventually stop making content. Which will lead to very little content available for everyone including console users, especially since console users are unable to create content without also being a PC user.

I don't even think that mod pirating as some have called this is a fair comparison. Mods are not commercially produced by people who do work with money as incentive. Thus it's far more destructive to mod making than it is for game and software developers (and that is saying a lot as it can be quite devastating for smaller studios and devs).

Mods that have more files than a plugin require more work than simply a quick repack with XB1 appropriate compression of archives. For example, a simple retexture of say Kellogs armor quickly de-saturated (Ctrl+Shift+U, Ctrl+S - done!) in Photoshop to make it black (you know the first mods that appeared on Nexus when FO4 was new) consists of just one file that you normally on PC just have to put in ..\Data\Textures\Armor\Kellogg\ and you are good to go. For it to work on XB1 which requires that you pack files to BA2 archives in the Creation Kit you need to make a plugin (esp) and setup a material swap pointing to a custom material file (bgsm). And this without mentioning that a author might have to consider what resolution and DDS compression that works best on XB1 and other performance issues that may require a lot of tweaking to get just right.

This is just to have a very simple mod originally consisting of a single dds-file. Most mods are far more complex and thus require far more work to function relatively similar on XB1 as it did on PC.

Additional reasons could that I should mentioned are for example:

- You are using tidbits of content by another author(s) that you either by legal reasons or just out of courtesy need to ask for a new permission or try remaking it yourself. Most permissions requires a separate permission for you to upload it to another site. If someones steals your mod you will get in trouble with authors you have permissions to use work for on Nexus but not off-site.

- You are waiting for Bethesda to update their platform so it's not so damn buggy and limiting in it's modpage functions. 2000 characters are not enough to describe most mods especially considering that users can't see what files are included when they install it I personally would like to describe what files a mod adds/changes as this will help to manage load orders and mod compatibility. And more advanced XB1 users might want to know what exactly they are downloading.

- The CK is in open beta and are not very reliable, especially when it comes to uploading your mod to another platform, I've had files both missing from archives or unrelated files being added despite not selecting them in the file list prior to packaging a mod. Other people have way more serious problems and thus many are currently delayed in their work due to this.
- Some authors are cunts. While true it doesn't justify stealing from them. It only justify you not interacting with them in the community.

Conclusion, stealing mods are ruining for everyone. I've said it many times, to both authors and users, this is a asymmetrical symbiosis. Don't bite the hand that feeds you or potentially could at least. If you can't see that you haven't understood whats going on and should refrain from commenting on the issue further until you have, or just ignore it. This issue, seen from both users and authors perspective is simple, you are either part of the community or against it. And that is just without touching the legality of the issue which Bethesda has made very clear.
boomerizer wrote: @kingtobbe

Thank you. You've worded it in a way that I understand better than whats been flung my way today. You have effectively illustrated to me how it is.

I'm still on the 'if credit is given' side, then I don't rightly care. But now I'm not so.. what is the word here? Wanting? Looking for understanding.

I'm sure many other posters here will be relieved-- I'm out, for now. I need food. And to wreck some super mutants. And to ignore Preston Garvey some more.
HadToRegister wrote: @OP, in SIX YEARS, you've endorsed ONCE.

iRodd wrote: Ok, you're trying to convince me that I use stolen mods too. Cool, maybe I do, but that's pretty irrelevant. Now, tell me: why stealing mods wouldn't be bad? For example: I created a mod and a lot of people liked it, then they start asking for a console version. If it is possible, I have the time, the means and the will, I'll port it. Else, I could trust someone else to do so, just like a lot of armor mods out there. Or, for any reason, not port it at all. This is fine, you wouldn't even be able to use my mod if I hadn't uploaded it to the Nexus in the first place, to respect my wish is the least you can do.

You can't just download the mod and upload it somewhere else, don't you see? You're disrespecting the author, who you should be grateful to for creating the mod. You can't just think "Hey, he would like to see his mod being used everywhere, so I'll upload it elsewhere!", you aren't the author nor know how he feels and thinks. If you really want port a mod to a console, ask the author first. Stop thinking just about yourself, I can barely believe you're married that way.
Roblade wrote: The cook sure the hell does care who does and doesn't get the burger. We like to know when people like boomerizer are ordering. I think nexus should have a Banned from mod list for authors to reject users, keeping them from being able to download track or comment on a mod. or the authors entire collection of mods. As a Chef I have that, it is a little sign on my front glass, it says " I reserve the right to refuse service." I've only ever used that right twice, after all you can't refuse everyone and stay in business, but I've made some very public refusals, once tossed out a man for fondling one of my waitresses.
@boomerizer: What you, and many, many others, apparently don't seem to understand is, it all boils down to a matter of respect.

The legality arguments, laying out of the rules, the naming conventions, if it's called theft, piracy or what-have-you, and all the funny analogies people may come up with, are all fine and dandy, but... ultimately they don't matter.

What does matter is, plain and simply, these authors have no reason to be sharing their works with you, none, nada, at all, despite maybe their own willingness to share. Sharing is not part of the hobby, it's only an afterthought. They mod for themselves first and foremost, and then, out of the goodness of their heart or whatever, decide to go the extra mile and make it usable by others, share it, and maintain comments sections to offer support and perhaps also hear you out on suggestions or ideas for improvements. But at the end of the day "you", as in "the users", are not needed in the equation and can and will, from an author's point of view, very easily be eliminated again at any point in time, and it will only ever be a win to themselves, a loss only to you.

It doesn't matter "why" they decided to distribute and manage their mods in so-or-so ways, or what places they choose to have their mods available at or not. They created it, they decide, you "respect" it, period.

If you don't, and make yourself more of a bother than it's worth for them, which is where you're heading with your attitude, and everybody agreeing with it while not seeing the big picture in the background, you eliminate their desire to share with you. They don't have any reason to, it's not like you're giving them anything back for it, not even a thanks mostly, and they most definitely do not benefit from your usage of their mods. Instead it "costs" them, actually, time, effort, and in your and other people's cases also nerves and heartache a lot.

If you disrespect them and their work as atrociously as to actively support someone who "stole" their work, as you do, no matter what he's going to do with it, he took it without asking first, and that's blatant disrespect to those people, sometimes even doing something that's completely against their expressed wishes, then "you" are making yourself their enemy and in their eyes no longer deserving access to their mods.

With increasing numbers of "you" their desire to keep sharing rapidly dwindles. And as it's absolutely no loss at all to them to just stop, at one point sooner or later they will. And that's where you're heading, if you keep at it, increasingly less and less mods shared with the public, for the public is becoming more a bother than the effort is worth. And a gain it never was.

The number of authors speaking up against your mindset in here should be telling, but apparently it's not. Be assured though that the number you're seeing here is only the pinnacle of the iceberg, as they say, and a lot more even are just silently sitting back and watching you people now, then making their decision if publicly sharing is still "worth it" in their eyes or not. As we speak, and the things on Bethesda.net keep going on the way they are now for only a little longer, the balance is quickly tipping towards your deficit, and in numbers you can't even fathom in your weirdest nightmares. Keep up with this attitude of your's, stay a part of the problem instead of helping in coming to a solution, and they'll soon become reality.

You're happy to see mods finally coming to consoles? Guess again, they won't be for much longer, if people can't even be bothered to give at least the minimum amount of respect to those who create these mods. You think this situation is blown out of proportion? Think again, because these creators disagree. You think they shouldn't care as much as they do? Guess what, but they do! And they won't ever stop just because you say so.

This blatant disrespect thrown at these benevolent people in scales beyond your wildest imagination right now really cannot be taken by everybody, and by most others not endlessly so either. It gets to their heart, it turns them away, it makes them no longer "want" to share.

Is this what you're aiming for? 'Cause then, congratulations, you're achieving it.

Thanks for coming in and try to enter some empathy and reasoning to this individual.

At this point this is just becoming disgusting. No matter how obvious and strong the answers we give to him, he just keep answering with the same fallacies over and over and over.

I wish he was banned but at the end this doesn't fix anything since sadly, many children share his views. At this point I will just ignore his existence and any words he writes.

DrakeTheDragon wrote: I wasn't talking to this one individual exclusively though. The "you" I used in my post can also be directed at all the others in here who expressed a similar mindset or expressed their agreement with his, as damaging and detrimental as it is. If I reach only one and make them see the authors' side of the problem, my post will have served a purpose.

I have experience in talking with brick walls, the situation isn't new to me. My own brother is a prime example, the kind of who'd claim gravity'd work upwards and when shown a stone dropping down would call physics malfunctioning in the area or something. You can't talk reason into these.

They won't be banned until they break the terms, although the damage they currently are causing is actually rather massive. They don't see it like I do every day 24/7 discussed among the authors in their forums, how much in danger the very idea of mods for FO4 publicly shared already actually is thanks to them and their ilk, so I tried informing them and opening their eyes, but it mostly fell on deaf ears of course as usual.

The Vampire Dante wrote:
I've removed about as much of his comments from here as I felt neccessary, they were becoming needlessly distracting and antagonistic to many of the other participants in the topic.

Kalell wrote: I don't consider myself a mod author (I've only uploaded one mod of my own) but I have access to the mod author forum and they're not happy. What people don't seem to realize is when they finally get feed up no one will even hear about it, the mods will just start disappearing.

mlee3141 wrote: Nice going, boomerizer. You managed to convince me that the user community is beyond salvaging. I'm done sharing; there's nothing more to be said here.

phantompally76 wrote: Deleting someone's comments simply because the echo chamber doesn't agree with them is every bit as unethical as mod piracy, in my humble opinion.

None of boomerizer's comments were any more antagonistic or inflammatory than Dark0ne's OP. And while I didn't really agree with much of what boomerizer was saying, the behavior of his respondents definitely caused me to respect his thoughts just a little more than those attacking him, even if I don't agree with him. Members of this community are acting a hundred times worse than the #modgate pitchfork brigade at their strongest, all in the name of so-called righteousness.

The last time I checked, this was an open discussion...not an "I agree with you Dark0ne, you're doing a terrific job pissing off Bethesda and burning your (our) bridges" thread. If both sides of the argument aren't allowed to have their say without being moderated, then what's the point? This essay isn't even being circle jerked on reddit right now (which SHOULD tell absolutely everyone here something), so this is the only place to discuss the issue. And it's not a black and white issue. I know you want it to be. I wish it were. But it isn't.

This is a controversial topic, made a thousand times worse by a controversial essay, written in the heat of the moment with no consideration or regard for the consequences. So if the comments are open to only one side of the debate, please let the community know. Let ME know, so I can stop interrupting your echo chamber party with common sense and rationale.

Kraynic wrote: @Phantom I agree that purging someone's comments can cause problems. However, I don't see how it is a problem in this case. Having a really loud voice promoting piracy and saying no rules apply probably isn't a good thing to have going on either.

Yeah, there have been some pretty rough comments on both sides. That doesn't make one individual's stance more reasonable or right just because there were rude people on the other side.

phantompally76 wrote: Regardless, that's not how an open discussion works.

Again, if this is not an open discussion, then say so.

wulfharth wrote: It wouldn't break my heart if you wanted to see yourself out.

Telling artists that they have no right to the control and distribution of their work is fascist. That is very black and white. Bethesda is an American company. The laws are pretty cut and dry here. Stealing is illegal. Copyright infringement is illegal. Piracy is illegal. Call it what you want. It is wrong.

There are no subtle nuances to this issue. I know you really want there to be, but that comes from a place of greed deep down in your heart. You want mods on console. That is and will always be at the discretion of each artist.

hangman04 wrote: it's the same shiate all over again, from when people stole good modes from nexus like sites and posted them on steam for money.... the exact people like boomerizer where downloading them and not giving a crap...

some may say that it was a different thing since it involved money, but now it may not be about money (YET!) but it is about pride! and sometimes pride can be more powerful than money....

the bad thing is that beth by their non action actually endorsed this s#*! on their platform.

phantompally76 wrote: @wulfharth

Read my comment again. I disagree with almost everything boomerizer was saying.

But that isn't my issue.

YOU are my issue. People like you are my issue.

You're not acting like advocates for modders' rights. You are acting like petulant children. You're acting like self-righteous bullies. You're acting like stereotypical neckbeard keyboard warriors.

You throw the word "fascist" around carelessly. From where I'm standing, YOU are the ones acting like fascists, not the devils' advocates. They have just as much a right to make their voices heard as you do, and just because you oppose their messages doesn't mean that YOU get to dictate what they can or cannot express in this open forum.

Outside our little bubble, people are talking. And they're not talking about mod piracy or console gamers vs. pc gamers. They're talking about what a bunch of over-reacting crybabies the nexus modding community has become. And I don't like that.

I oppose mod piracy. But I oppose rash stupidity and heavy-handed censorship even more.

This is NOT how you get Bethesda's attention. This is NOT how you impact change on copyright legislation. This is NOT how you treat members of this community just because they don't agree with you.

I have to agree, over censoring anyone's comments is detrimental to the debate (unless they are just outright nasty insults etc). As much as I don't agree with a thing he said, the dialog we have now is going to set the tone for how this is handled long term. There are vocal extremists on both sides of the argument, but this isn't going to be solved by those people because they wont stop "shouting" at each other. If we (those of us opposed to mod theft) want to talk about ethics then we need to behave in an ethical way and lead by example.

I am tired of justifications for mod theft.

I am tired of "PC Master Race".

I am tired of the antagonistic rudeness instead of open conversation.

This is what will make mod authors walk away. Probably not your die hard, highly skilled authors but those of us who do small things just for fun, to join in, be part of the community and share.

It's the middle ground in this debate who will just get tired and walk away from all of it. Edited June 19, 2016 by UlanX

On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

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