On console mods, theft and Bethesda.net

[AFKRoger]

In response to post #39518120. #39518400 is also a reply to the same post.

AFKRoger wrote: I'm gonna just post this as my opinion, and then say a few things afterwards. Sorry If my wording is poor I'm not sure how to word some of this.

1. This is not just about the people who download the mods, this about an insult to a community that has been generating content and adding value to Bethesda's games for 14 years. This includes the people who downloaded those mods.

2. It is illegal Bethesda them selves have made it clear that their site is protected by DCMA. Which, if i recall correctly also makes it illegal for users to download stolen software. They are essentially committing the same crimes as pirating music.

3. Just because its free doesn't make it legal nor give anyone the right to do with it as you please. Just as when you buy a game you don't own it, you merely only own the right to use it.

4. Yes, their are those whom will go out yelling PC MASTER RACE and that console users should be made to down and bla bla bla....

A). I doubt the majority of the community is like that to.
B). The official response of this site in accordance of this article is that they have no place in this community.

5. Lets be honest, giving credit where credit is due isn't to much to ask for.

6. Obviously you can't fully stop pirating but a site such as bethesda.net allowing such a thing is not only an insult to this community's modders but also to every single one of their present and future customers as it shows how they really value them. (By doing little to nothing, your essentially saying its ok to do it.)

7. To those whom do pirate (and I don't just mean mods), To put this as respectfully as I can manage. You are the problem, you are the cancer on this community trying to slowly make it eat it self from the inside out.

Lastly, contrary to how my last point may come off as

I think we are all getting a bit to angry to have a proper conversation on this mabye if we all just took a sec to step back and clam down things may go a little better.

Its a sad to have to see community as great as this that has accomplished as much as it has be so distraught over something as this.

Brabbit1987 wrote: 2. Impossible, you wouldn't know if it was stolen or not, unless you knew who made it to begin with or if the person admitted stealing it right in the title of the mod. That would be like holding someone responsible for downloading a stolen app on the appstore when they obviously wouldn't know.

3. I agree, but whether or not it can be stopped is a whole other discussion.

6. I agree, Bethesda really should be handling this better. Then we wouldn't have much of an issue at all. But the cards have fallen where they have.

7. Errr .. well not always. There have been some studies that have shown those who pirate music are actually also some of the best customers of music. Pirating is wrong, but it's not like all pirates are harming the industry or the developers. Pirates who want everything for free ... and never pays for anything, even when they are capable of doing so ... that is when I have the problem with them.

2. Agreed, but lets face it some would even if they did and said that they would even if they knew in this very form. Those are the ones I'm talking to.

7. The ones who want everything for free are mainly the people I'm trying to refer to. Edited June 18, 2016 by AFKRoger

[Kraynic]

In response to post #39515150. #39515405, #39515615, #39517850, #39518140, #39518490 are all replies on the same post.

Vagrant0 wrote:

So please, tell me again. Whats the f***ing problem?

 

 

The problem, simply, is that ONLY the author of a mod is qualified to decide if it is safe to use on console or decide if they want to offer support for that mod on console. There are dozens of threads popping up on reddit warning console users against certain mods (which were uploaded to bethesda.net without consent) which are corrupting saves or causing other harm. Unfortunately, given the lackluster systems, they blame the original mod author for these problems and have been flaming the author for uploading a "broken" product, some of these flames even making its way back to this site. This makes the mod author look bad, causes harm to those users of the mod, and leads to significantly more problems for EVERYONE involved... All because someone decided that they wanted to upload a mod for console users.

 

This is the situation as it exists. There is evidence of this happening. Beyond all the usual arguments of copyright and providing credit, this one issue remains and serves to cause harm to both mod authors and mod users regardless of what platform those mods appear.

boomerizer wrote: Well, I mean, thats a risk of mods. I've had to reinstall Skyrim several times on PC because of the complicated ENB installation process. Or because dirty mods that I couldn't be bothered to clean up with TES5edit. I've spent days trying to get certain mods to work on PC.

This is merely growing pains for console mods. So far, I've had a smooth experience downloading mods, though I have no way to say if any mods I currently use are stolen.

Brabbit1987 wrote: It's a problem that exists, yes ... but it's a problem that is going to continue to exist. Everyone is just stressing themselves out more than they should be.

If people are coming here complaining about mods breaking their game, then they have much to learn. This is going to happen even if the mod author uploads it themselves.

Kraynic wrote: And just how much to people who strictly play on consoles know about mods? You have the tools on pc to smooth out problems with mods. They don't exist (as far as I know) on consoles.

If the only mods to get released to consoles are texture/mesh replacements, then there probably won't be much in the way of problems. But mods can be MUCH more complex than that. If something goes wrong, where do the the console players turn for help? Well, to the mod author who may not be able to offer any support at all except to the pc platform.

As far as reinstalling Skyrim goes. I only did that once. I decided redownloading the game took far too long, and saved a base freshly downloaded version to a data partition where I could copy/paste it into my gaming partition if I managed to scramble my working copy of the game. Is this something that can be done on a console? I don't know, since I don't own a console. If you need to redownload the game every time something screws up, this is going to cause a lot of anger in a hurry.

Saying the authors need to just let things go where they may really isn't a very constructive argument to make. While I don't mod, I have some skills at making things with my very own hands. I believe a lot of people don't really have that anymore, and, as a result, don't really have an understanding of the connection a maker of something has to the product of their time and energy. And I'm not sure how it is possible to bridge that gap. I believe that is partly what is at play here with some sides of this discussion.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @Kraynic

Well, that is the issue, I don't think the mod authors are going to have much of a choice at the end of the day unless they upload their mod themselves. Don't want problems? Then just need to act quickly.

This was bound to happen with console modding. You are introducing a community and service that the mod developers really have no control over.

Kalell wrote: @Kraynic That does seem to be what is happening. Anyone that has spent a good amount of time making something (art) should understand how a creator feels about the things they create. There's a sense that the piece of art contains a part of them. If someone is allowed to just take that work and do whatever they want with it without even asking it feels like a part of you has been taken.

I think you missed my point. Uploading them willy-nilly isn't a solution. Someone uploading them without permission so that angry people do a web search and come here looking for support from the mod author isn't a solution either.

And there will be some sort of control, even if it is the modders packing up their toys and going home. And I don't think that is the outcome anyone wants.

Edit: The packing up and going home is something that happened with some modders after the paid mods fiasco. So I don't think it is unreasonable to think the same sort of thing could happen in the current situation. Edited June 18, 2016 by Kraynic

[MrJoseCuervo]

In response to post #39510315. #39511175, #39511945, #39512040 are all replies on the same post.

MrJoseCuervo wrote: Dark0ne, I agree with some of what you said but I must remind you of a couple of things.

1) Console Users did not create this community or enable this site to become what it is today.
2) I am not aware of any contribution Console gaming has provided PC Users other then the dumbing down of game content across the board.
3) There is little chance for revenue to be made by you from console gaming unless you plan on selling us out in the future or that technology drastically changes, which I don't see happening any time soon.

In short I feel PC gamers have every right to be elitists to some extent because we are not just consumers, we contribute. I realize that our contributions are taken for granted by the industry and are only allowed to continue because they see a financial advantage in doing so, but regardless of that you cannot belittle people for wanting to protect this community from vultures who want to rake in as much profit with as little effort as possible.

I would suggest you remember who made your successful site possible and avoid sh!tting where you sleep. In the immortal words of President Obama, You didn't build that by yourself.

boomerizer wrote: MrJoseCuervo:

Nice, coming from someone that stole their name from a tequila brand.

OK so
1) Many PC gamers I'm sure own consoles. Myself included. But you may be partially right. I've only endorsed one thing in the last year.
2) Well, until you invent the console controller that includes 108 keys (not including mouse functions), then "dumbing down" is insanely short sighted, bigoted, and beyond ignorant.
3) Egh, I don't understand the point of that jumble of garbage.

Nobody reserves any right to be elitist in any extent. Not only are you being elitist, but you are being an exlusionist-- as if there are people that SHOULDN'T be allowed to enjoy mods. Simply because of the platform they choose to play on. Console mods have only been available for a month. PC mods have been available for nearly 30 years. I don't want to hear s#*! about console gamers not being contributors. Not everyone that owns a gaming quality PC only owns a PC. I own a PC, a Macbook Pro, an XBox One and a PS4. We also have a 3DS and PSVita (had two of each for a time) At one time we also had a WiiU in the house.

So, for you, I would not recommend shitting on gamers. You know. People that aren't elitist. People that don't choose sides in platforms because each has their advantage.

You know why I have consoles? Because I don't want to have to worry about whether or not my PC can run it. Or having to download multiple third party programs to get something to work.

Y'know, even on PC I play Skyrim and Fallout 4 with an Afterglow wired Xbox One controller. It's not "dumbed down", its streamlined. Dumbed down is what SOE did to Star Wars Galaxies in 2007. Dumbed down is what Ion Storm did to Deus Ex: Invisible War (yes, to make it more accessible to console gamers because CONSOLE GAMING IS A HUGE MARKET).

Whether you like it or not (and I know you don't), but consoles are a huge part of gaming. Video games would not be anywhere near as big as they are today without the Nintento Entertainment System. Which, y'know, was a console. In case you forgot. Mario, video gamings biggest mascot...from a console game. Master Chief, y'know from Halo. Another video game juggernaut... console. You don't have to like it...

But you should learn to respect it.

vram1974 wrote: > In short I feel PC gamers have every right to be elitists

Agreed with everything you wrote.

arenthefox wrote: @MrJoseCuervo: PC gamers who have contributed to the community by creating mods and content can be elitists to a tolerable amount. However, a good part of the group Dark0ne is talking about, the obnoxious elitists, have likely done nothing of the sort, and instead just play games and use mods without giving back, and talk s#*! about console gamers for no other reason than that they don't use the same platform.

Also, just because PC gamers created the modding community, doesn't mean we should shun, exclude, or treat console owners like second-class gamers; they like video games, and they want to use and maybe make some cool mods just like us. They probably play a lot of the same games aside from Bethesda titles, too. Acting like a snob just because you own the platform modding started on does nothing but deepen the divide in the gaming community.

I am not suggesting anything other than protecting what we have built here.

I am not saying we need to shun anyone. All I am saying is that we are the ones making the content, not them. And rolling over and letting the larger forces at play here destroy everything is not something that should be allowed to happen. Change is fine, inclusion is wonderful. Letting a horde of locusts come in and destroy OUR community of content creators and those that support them is not acceptable.

Yes, PC gamers are superior and if you can't bring yourself to acknowledge that then there is nothing further to talk about. Edited June 19, 2016 by MrJoseCuervo

[CliveBarker]

After reading so many comments and ideas it's sad to see that the community is so divided. Let's be honest though. A mod authors work is an authors work. An author have some sort of right to that creation, no matter if it's physical or digital, that's not relevant even. All people defending this idea of this being ok are most likely just consumers. I've checked most profiles and they are, many new as well.

 

I hate how this community (especially since Skyrim) has started to go away from kind people. These days there are so many greedy users with no contribution and that they speak for my work is something I dislike. They don't represent me nor my work. It's that simple. What I create is my work. Don't take my work and do what you please with it. Don't justify it with "B-but I gave credit man!"

 

I honestly think it's disgusting. Most big modders of this site agree that their creations should be in their control, not someone elses. It's their work. Please for the love of god, is it so difficult to respect that? Greed is what it is.

Even when in reality I am just a leecher and a user who doesn't contribute with content, I completely agree with you wholeheartedly. I hope measures are taken to protect the authors and that some users mature. Just look at this thread as an example on how to encourage modders to keep going https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/4onln1/thank_you/ Totally the opposite of some comments here.

Edited June 18, 2016 by CliveBarker

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775, #39514790, #39518690 are all replies on the same post.

bigdeano89 wrote: Sigh, the ignorant comments coming from some folks here is unbelieveable, to the point that I think you must either be children or trolls to have this mindset. Most of these people even admit to "not reading the whole article" but somehow their insight has to be more valuable than the damn article you are commenting on.

Heres the gist, shrunk down into a smaller size so you can understand. Mod authors DO own their mods, Bethesda and Zenimax own the LICENSE to it (and thats ONLY if made with the creation kit. If they make them by any other means, Zenimax dont own anything). That license does NOT extend to users. That does NOT give anyone the right to take and upload the mods without permission from the authors, END.OF.STORY.

No more of this BS "I own the game, I can do what I want", no, you cant, and you are childish or a troll if you believe thats true.

Brabbit1987 wrote: I am of the argument that, while I don't agree with mods being stolen, I think it's better to make it less of a big deal, because it's only making the situation worse.

Remember what the music industry did back when piracy was rather new? There are always going to be people who do not respect your wishes. Also, in many cases, it's not even someone who is trying to be disrespectful, it's just someone who enjoys your content and wants to share it with others.

Now, you can do what the music industry did and try your best to prevent piracy. Or you can accept that there is very little you can do to stop it entirely and it's probably best to just embrace it and work along with it, rather than against it. If this trend continues with mods on consoles, you can be sure .. eventually we will come to a point where trying to stop your mod from being uploaded will just be impossible unless you don't mind spending most of your time doing take downs.

Again, it's not that I agree with people stealing mods, I just think it's going to come to a point where .. it will be too much work to try and prevent it.

boomerizer wrote: And in my case, I feel the same way Brabbit. Although, it's more because its digital media. Once you upload it to the internet, you sort of lose ownership. You know, its not like you're actually losing anything. And the 'thief' really isn't gaining anything. In fact the only people that benefit from this, are the people that download the mods to their game.

My god, what a travesty! Oh, what a world where people are actually enjoying something on a platform that isn't a PC! *gasp*

Like I've said, repeatedly, if the thief is actually trying to claim ownership (or worse, trying to encourage donation or payment of some sort), yeah, I'd have a problem too. But if its a direct copy/paste upload? C'mon, what the flip are you really losing out on?

BuffHamster wrote: @boomerizer: Apathy, ... awesome. I have some Insurance policies I can sell to you, oh and this bridge I found somewhere near Brooklyn NY.
Accept it, "Buyer Beware" and all that.
You bought a shoddy used car with no warranty? Too bad, accept it.
Oh my, you purchased some food items that have been recalled due to Salmonella contamination? Ah well, you still have that Insurance policy I sold you? Never mind, food poisoning is not covered.
Imitation brand electronics burned your house down? Ah, too bad, that's not covered. Accept it, no, ... embrace it.

My take? Mod Authors have the legal right to be advocates for themselves and the legal right to petition their grievances as loudly as possible, ... accept it.

doomy19 wrote: @Brabbit1987 You're right, it will be too much work to try and prevent it, so the mod authors will do the most simple thing they can, which is to stop making mods because the enjoyment of doing so has been eclipsed by the problems involved. And who benefits from that? Nobody. This is the reality that the community members here understand and the new console people and Bethesda don't, that there is no way to win if everyone isn't respecting the ones creating the content.

boomerizer wrote: Wrong Again. Because now you're bringing money into it. Now I'm at a loss. Because so far, everyone arguing against this mod theft like its genuine piracy, keeps using analogies that bring in money. Currency.

There is no currency in the modding community beyond ego. Beyond namesake.

And if it isn't that, then it's anti-console types. Neither of which are valid, in my opinion.

One is ego stroking, the other is elitism. Both are insanely selfish, which defeats the purpose of the sharing of your mods.

Sharing.

Huh.

Maybe somebody forgot the definition of sharing.

I mean, if you don't want to spread the love, maybe you shouldn't mod. Sounds like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Looking for some glory? Maybe hoping you make such a great mod that Bethesda (or whoevers game you're modding) hires you?

If I made mods, I'd be flattered if it were being redistributed. That meant I did a good thing. That'd mean that people liked what I made.

And, as I've said before, and something that people seem to be forgetting, or not paying attention to:

If the person redistributing it were claiming it as their own, outright-- not just failing to credit, but saying it is THEIRS and THEIRS alone, yeah, I WOULD have a problem. But the fact of the matter is that most "stolen" mods out there, are merely redistributed, without credit or permission.

And I'm sorry, but that is not nefarious. That's not genuine theft. That is not worth the fuss that everyone here is making it out to be. That is simply redistribution. Nobody is losing out on credit/recognition. Nobody is losing money. Nobody is gaining money.

So please, tell me again. Whats the f*#@ing problem?

Brabbit1987 wrote: @doomy19
If that is all their mods are worth to them, than that is on them. They can stop developing mods if they so wish. You know, some people may care at first, but everything moves on and people will simply forget.

Worrying about a mod you made, which you released entirely free, being uploaded in a place where people can download it entirely for free .. is just stressful. It's easier to really not care. It's not exactly the biggest deal in the world.

I am not new to theft either. I am an artist and a game developer, started off a long time ago as a mod developer myself.

It was something I enjoyed, and I expect the same to be true of current mod developers. Anyone can take your mod and upload it anywhere, and there is very little you can do to stop it. So why stress about it at all?

If you are worried about giving support, than just make it clear you only give support for those who get their copy from an official source. If you have a problem with my mod, and you got it from a place I did not upload it, then tough, no support for you.

There are ways to deal with these things without making yourself stressed out.

bigdeano89 wrote: Boomerizer, Dark0ne already stated that it IS piracy, whether it makes money or not is irrelevant, its the intellectual property of the mod author, and no one else. You dont seem to want to read ANYTHING anyone says to you do you? Yes, I have noticed your constant posts trying to defend it. You are exactly the kind of person im talking about.

@bigdeano89

If we are to consider this piracy .. than a lot of things also are piracy that are widely accepted. Let's say you see a drawing that is pretty awesome on deviantart and want to show your friends and share it on facebook. That would then also be considered piracy .. would it not?

You didn't get the authors permission to repost it on facebook .. right?

[RayV12]

WOW.. I actually agree with every word of this post. It's good to here and I'm glad I read it.

 

Thanks for keeping your opinion real along with taking the time to write and post it.

[17671]

Fantastic, albeit lengthy post. A table of contents would have probably helped mitigate some of the complaints other commenters have brought up.

 

Regardless, I have (baseless) hope that Bethesda will take some action here.

[Kraynic]

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775, #39514790, #39518690, #39518820, #39519085, #39519310 are all replies on the same post.

bigdeano89 wrote: Sigh, the ignorant comments coming from some folks here is unbelieveable, to the point that I think you must either be children or trolls to have this mindset. Most of these people even admit to "not reading the whole article" but somehow their insight has to be more valuable than the damn article you are commenting on.

Heres the gist, shrunk down into a smaller size so you can understand. Mod authors DO own their mods, Bethesda and Zenimax own the LICENSE to it (and thats ONLY if made with the creation kit. If they make them by any other means, Zenimax dont own anything). That license does NOT extend to users. That does NOT give anyone the right to take and upload the mods without permission from the authors, END.OF.STORY.

No more of this BS "I own the game, I can do what I want", no, you cant, and you are childish or a troll if you believe thats true.

Brabbit1987 wrote: I am of the argument that, while I don't agree with mods being stolen, I think it's better to make it less of a big deal, because it's only making the situation worse.

Remember what the music industry did back when piracy was rather new? There are always going to be people who do not respect your wishes. Also, in many cases, it's not even someone who is trying to be disrespectful, it's just someone who enjoys your content and wants to share it with others.

Now, you can do what the music industry did and try your best to prevent piracy. Or you can accept that there is very little you can do to stop it entirely and it's probably best to just embrace it and work along with it, rather than against it. If this trend continues with mods on consoles, you can be sure .. eventually we will come to a point where trying to stop your mod from being uploaded will just be impossible unless you don't mind spending most of your time doing take downs.

Again, it's not that I agree with people stealing mods, I just think it's going to come to a point where .. it will be too much work to try and prevent it.

boomerizer wrote: And in my case, I feel the same way Brabbit. Although, it's more because its digital media. Once you upload it to the internet, you sort of lose ownership. You know, its not like you're actually losing anything. And the 'thief' really isn't gaining anything. In fact the only people that benefit from this, are the people that download the mods to their game.

My god, what a travesty! Oh, what a world where people are actually enjoying something on a platform that isn't a PC! *gasp*

Like I've said, repeatedly, if the thief is actually trying to claim ownership (or worse, trying to encourage donation or payment of some sort), yeah, I'd have a problem too. But if its a direct copy/paste upload? C'mon, what the flip are you really losing out on?

BuffHamster wrote: @boomerizer: Apathy, ... awesome. I have some Insurance policies I can sell to you, oh and this bridge I found somewhere near Brooklyn NY.
Accept it, "Buyer Beware" and all that.
You bought a shoddy used car with no warranty? Too bad, accept it.
Oh my, you purchased some food items that have been recalled due to Salmonella contamination? Ah well, you still have that Insurance policy I sold you? Never mind, food poisoning is not covered.
Imitation brand electronics burned your house down? Ah, too bad, that's not covered. Accept it, no, ... embrace it.

My take? Mod Authors have the legal right to be advocates for themselves and the legal right to petition their grievances as loudly as possible, ... accept it.

doomy19 wrote: @Brabbit1987 You're right, it will be too much work to try and prevent it, so the mod authors will do the most simple thing they can, which is to stop making mods because the enjoyment of doing so has been eclipsed by the problems involved. And who benefits from that? Nobody. This is the reality that the community members here understand and the new console people and Bethesda don't, that there is no way to win if everyone isn't respecting the ones creating the content.

boomerizer wrote: Wrong Again. Because now you're bringing money into it. Now I'm at a loss. Because so far, everyone arguing against this mod theft like its genuine piracy, keeps using analogies that bring in money. Currency.

There is no currency in the modding community beyond ego. Beyond namesake.

And if it isn't that, then it's anti-console types. Neither of which are valid, in my opinion.

One is ego stroking, the other is elitism. Both are insanely selfish, which defeats the purpose of the sharing of your mods.

Sharing.

Huh.

Maybe somebody forgot the definition of sharing.

I mean, if you don't want to spread the love, maybe you shouldn't mod. Sounds like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Looking for some glory? Maybe hoping you make such a great mod that Bethesda (or whoevers game you're modding) hires you?

If I made mods, I'd be flattered if it were being redistributed. That meant I did a good thing. That'd mean that people liked what I made.

And, as I've said before, and something that people seem to be forgetting, or not paying attention to:

If the person redistributing it were claiming it as their own, outright-- not just failing to credit, but saying it is THEIRS and THEIRS alone, yeah, I WOULD have a problem. But the fact of the matter is that most "stolen" mods out there, are merely redistributed, without credit or permission.

And I'm sorry, but that is not nefarious. That's not genuine theft. That is not worth the fuss that everyone here is making it out to be. That is simply redistribution. Nobody is losing out on credit/recognition. Nobody is losing money. Nobody is gaining money.

So please, tell me again. Whats the f*#@ing problem?

Brabbit1987 wrote: @doomy19
If that is all their mods are worth to them, than that is on them. They can stop developing mods if they so wish. You know, some people may care at first, but everything moves on and people will simply forget.

Worrying about a mod you made, which you released entirely free, being uploaded in a place where people can download it entirely for free .. is just stressful. It's easier to really not care. It's not exactly the biggest deal in the world.

I am not new to theft either. I am an artist and a game developer, started off a long time ago as a mod developer myself.

It was something I enjoyed, and I expect the same to be true of current mod developers. Anyone can take your mod and upload it anywhere, and there is very little you can do to stop it. So why stress about it at all?

If you are worried about giving support, than just make it clear you only give support for those who get their copy from an official source. If you have a problem with my mod, and you got it from a place I did not upload it, then tough, no support for you.

There are ways to deal with these things without making yourself stressed out.

bigdeano89 wrote: Boomerizer, Dark0ne already stated that it IS piracy, whether it makes money or not is irrelevant, its the intellectual property of the mod author, and no one else. You dont seem to want to read ANYTHING anyone says to you do you? Yes, I have noticed your constant posts trying to defend it. You are exactly the kind of person im talking about.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @bigdeano89

If we are to consider this piracy .. than a lot of things also are piracy that are widely accepted. Let's say you see a drawing that is pretty awesome on deviantart and want to show your friends and share it on facebook. That would then also be considered piracy .. would it not?

You didn't get the authors permission to repost it on facebook .. right?

boomerizer wrote: I only consider it theft, piracy, or whatever /wrong/ in regards to mods when

1) Credit is being attributed to the Thief.

Beyond that, I count the redistribution with or without credit under Fair Use. Specifically, with Credit, but on console mods with limited description character limit, I'm going to also count without proper credit.

To me, that is all it is.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @boomerizer

Well technically it's not fair use, redistributing is against the law whether or not credit is or is not given.
The issue is, copyright laws seem to be so outdated and not used correctly these days that no one knows what is and isn't allowed. No one actually follows them.

If we followed all copyright laws, things would be very different on the internet. That share button that exists on articles, art sites, or what have you .. would not exist. You wouldn't be able to turn your favorite games into wallpaper for your computer. You wouldn't be able to own a fan made website. Technically even the nexus site is breaking a lot of copyright laws.

The reason no one gets sued or gets in trouble is because the companies learned a long time ago, it's more beneficial for them to allow these things and it just is a waste of time to try and prevent it.

There are some companies though who are pretty bad still. Nintendo is one of them.

@Brabbit I did a quick google search for "deviant art permissions". There is a LOT of info there that talks about how things get to that point. That site and how it gets used is a lot different than here, but if you haven't read their own policies on theft, infringement, etc, then you should.

[MarchinBunny]

In response to post #39498570. #39512850, #39513220, #39514275, #39514365, #39514775, #39514790, #39518690, #39518820, #39519085, #39519310, #39519400, #39519465 are all replies on the same post.

bigdeano89 wrote: Sigh, the ignorant comments coming from some folks here is unbelieveable, to the point that I think you must either be children or trolls to have this mindset. Most of these people even admit to "not reading the whole article" but somehow their insight has to be more valuable than the damn article you are commenting on.

Heres the gist, shrunk down into a smaller size so you can understand. Mod authors DO own their mods, Bethesda and Zenimax own the LICENSE to it (and thats ONLY if made with the creation kit. If they make them by any other means, Zenimax dont own anything). That license does NOT extend to users. That does NOT give anyone the right to take and upload the mods without permission from the authors, END.OF.STORY.

No more of this BS "I own the game, I can do what I want", no, you cant, and you are childish or a troll if you believe thats true.

Brabbit1987 wrote: I am of the argument that, while I don't agree with mods being stolen, I think it's better to make it less of a big deal, because it's only making the situation worse.

Remember what the music industry did back when piracy was rather new? There are always going to be people who do not respect your wishes. Also, in many cases, it's not even someone who is trying to be disrespectful, it's just someone who enjoys your content and wants to share it with others.

Now, you can do what the music industry did and try your best to prevent piracy. Or you can accept that there is very little you can do to stop it entirely and it's probably best to just embrace it and work along with it, rather than against it. If this trend continues with mods on consoles, you can be sure .. eventually we will come to a point where trying to stop your mod from being uploaded will just be impossible unless you don't mind spending most of your time doing take downs.

Again, it's not that I agree with people stealing mods, I just think it's going to come to a point where .. it will be too much work to try and prevent it.

boomerizer wrote: And in my case, I feel the same way Brabbit. Although, it's more because its digital media. Once you upload it to the internet, you sort of lose ownership. You know, its not like you're actually losing anything. And the 'thief' really isn't gaining anything. In fact the only people that benefit from this, are the people that download the mods to their game.

My god, what a travesty! Oh, what a world where people are actually enjoying something on a platform that isn't a PC! *gasp*

Like I've said, repeatedly, if the thief is actually trying to claim ownership (or worse, trying to encourage donation or payment of some sort), yeah, I'd have a problem too. But if its a direct copy/paste upload? C'mon, what the flip are you really losing out on?

BuffHamster wrote: @boomerizer: Apathy, ... awesome. I have some Insurance policies I can sell to you, oh and this bridge I found somewhere near Brooklyn NY.
Accept it, "Buyer Beware" and all that.
You bought a shoddy used car with no warranty? Too bad, accept it.
Oh my, you purchased some food items that have been recalled due to Salmonella contamination? Ah well, you still have that Insurance policy I sold you? Never mind, food poisoning is not covered.
Imitation brand electronics burned your house down? Ah, too bad, that's not covered. Accept it, no, ... embrace it.

My take? Mod Authors have the legal right to be advocates for themselves and the legal right to petition their grievances as loudly as possible, ... accept it.

doomy19 wrote: @Brabbit1987 You're right, it will be too much work to try and prevent it, so the mod authors will do the most simple thing they can, which is to stop making mods because the enjoyment of doing so has been eclipsed by the problems involved. And who benefits from that? Nobody. This is the reality that the community members here understand and the new console people and Bethesda don't, that there is no way to win if everyone isn't respecting the ones creating the content.

boomerizer wrote: Wrong Again. Because now you're bringing money into it. Now I'm at a loss. Because so far, everyone arguing against this mod theft like its genuine piracy, keeps using analogies that bring in money. Currency.

There is no currency in the modding community beyond ego. Beyond namesake.

And if it isn't that, then it's anti-console types. Neither of which are valid, in my opinion.

One is ego stroking, the other is elitism. Both are insanely selfish, which defeats the purpose of the sharing of your mods.

Sharing.

Huh.

Maybe somebody forgot the definition of sharing.

I mean, if you don't want to spread the love, maybe you shouldn't mod. Sounds like you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Looking for some glory? Maybe hoping you make such a great mod that Bethesda (or whoevers game you're modding) hires you?

If I made mods, I'd be flattered if it were being redistributed. That meant I did a good thing. That'd mean that people liked what I made.

And, as I've said before, and something that people seem to be forgetting, or not paying attention to:

If the person redistributing it were claiming it as their own, outright-- not just failing to credit, but saying it is THEIRS and THEIRS alone, yeah, I WOULD have a problem. But the fact of the matter is that most "stolen" mods out there, are merely redistributed, without credit or permission.

And I'm sorry, but that is not nefarious. That's not genuine theft. That is not worth the fuss that everyone here is making it out to be. That is simply redistribution. Nobody is losing out on credit/recognition. Nobody is losing money. Nobody is gaining money.

So please, tell me again. Whats the f*#@ing problem?

Brabbit1987 wrote: @doomy19
If that is all their mods are worth to them, than that is on them. They can stop developing mods if they so wish. You know, some people may care at first, but everything moves on and people will simply forget.

Worrying about a mod you made, which you released entirely free, being uploaded in a place where people can download it entirely for free .. is just stressful. It's easier to really not care. It's not exactly the biggest deal in the world.

I am not new to theft either. I am an artist and a game developer, started off a long time ago as a mod developer myself.

It was something I enjoyed, and I expect the same to be true of current mod developers. Anyone can take your mod and upload it anywhere, and there is very little you can do to stop it. So why stress about it at all?

If you are worried about giving support, than just make it clear you only give support for those who get their copy from an official source. If you have a problem with my mod, and you got it from a place I did not upload it, then tough, no support for you.

There are ways to deal with these things without making yourself stressed out.

bigdeano89 wrote: Boomerizer, Dark0ne already stated that it IS piracy, whether it makes money or not is irrelevant, its the intellectual property of the mod author, and no one else. You dont seem to want to read ANYTHING anyone says to you do you? Yes, I have noticed your constant posts trying to defend it. You are exactly the kind of person im talking about.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @bigdeano89

If we are to consider this piracy .. than a lot of things also are piracy that are widely accepted. Let's say you see a drawing that is pretty awesome on deviantart and want to show your friends and share it on facebook. That would then also be considered piracy .. would it not?

You didn't get the authors permission to repost it on facebook .. right?

boomerizer wrote: I only consider it theft, piracy, or whatever /wrong/ in regards to mods when

1) Credit is being attributed to the Thief.

Beyond that, I count the redistribution with or without credit under Fair Use. Specifically, with Credit, but on console mods with limited description character limit, I'm going to also count without proper credit.

To me, that is all it is.

Brabbit1987 wrote: @boomerizer

Well technically it's not fair use, redistributing is against the law whether or not credit is or is not given.
The issue is, copyright laws seem to be so outdated and not used correctly these days that no one knows what is and isn't allowed. No one actually follows them.

If we followed all copyright laws, things would be very different on the internet. That share button that exists on articles, art sites, or what have you .. would not exist. You wouldn't be able to turn your favorite games into wallpaper for your computer. You wouldn't be able to own a fan made website. Technically even the nexus site is breaking a lot of copyright laws.

The reason no one gets sued or gets in trouble is because the companies learned a long time ago, it's more beneficial for them to allow these things and it just is a waste of time to try and prevent it.

There are some companies though who are pretty bad still. Nintendo is one of them.

Kraynic wrote: @Brabbit I did a quick google search for "deviant art permissions". There is a LOT of info there that talks about how things get to that point. That site and how it gets used is a lot different than here, but if you haven't read their own policies on theft, infringement, etc, then you should.

boomerizer wrote: You're right, it is more beneficial. Which is why it blows my mind authors are so gung-ho with this "issue".

s#*!, I love runnin around the wasteland with Captain America's shield. Wish it were at the very least throwable and retrievable, in the way tomahawks were in New Vegas.

@Kraynic

Not sure what their policies has anything to do with what I said.

[JN273]

In response to post #39518795.

CliveBarker wrote:

After reading so many comments and ideas it's sad to see that the community is so divided. Let's be honest though. A mod authors work is an authors work. An author have some sort of right to that creation, no matter if it's physical or digital, that's not relevant even. All people defending this idea of this being ok are most likely just consumers. I've checked most profiles and they are, many new as well.

I hate how this community (especially since Skyrim) has started to go away from kind people. These days there are so many greedy users with no contribution and that they speak for my work is something I dislike. They don't represent me nor my work. It's that simple. What I create is my work. Don't take my work and do what you please with it. Don't justify it with "B-but I gave credit man!"

I honestly think it's disgusting. Most big modders of this site agree that their creations should be in their control, not someone elses. It's their work. Please for the love of god, is it so difficult to respect that? Greed is what it is.

Even when in reality I am just a leecher and a user who doesn't contribute with content, I completely agree with you wholeheartedly. I hope measures are taken to protect the authors and that some users mature. Just look at this thread as an example on how to encourage modders to keep going https://www.reddit.com/r/skyrimmods/comments/4onln1/thank_you/ Totally the opposite of some comments here.

It's so lovely to see those kind of threads. Just simple comments when people say thank you or give contructive critism is great. Thank you for your thoughts as well and happy modding :)