Who wins an Enclave vs Institute 'tech off'?

[maledwarfwarrior]

It seems to be a repeat of the great war. The U.S. focused on combat tech like power armor and the Fatman. The Chinese focused on stealth and subterfuge, knowing efficiency mattered in the resource wars. The Chinese stealth technology allowed them to strike at soft targets at virtually no personal risk, and create enough paranoia that the U.S. targeted it's own citizens out of fear. The Institute's synths allow these tactics to be replicated, with the advantage of also being able to gradually replace a entire base with synths with nobody being the wiser. The Enclave would target it's own loyal personal in an attempt to remove these infiltrators, while the Institute has lots of practice in misdirection and hiding in plain sight. Take a look at the list of synths in diamond city for evidence (spoilers for the list of course, but the fact that there are synths in diamond city should be a given). If enough of a base was compromised by Institute infiltrators, they could execute the rest and splice synth components into the corpses to gain full control of the facility while A) making the Enclave more paranoid and B) shifting suspicion away from the actual synth infiltrators. Any attempt at creating an anti-synth division would be quickly overwhelmed by synth replacements and only aid the Institute's shadow war.

 

On the other hand, the enclave probably knows where the Institute is. SPOILERS AHEAD!

 

The institute is directly underneath CIT... as in the commonwealth INSTITUTE of technology. It is, however, very far underground making a assault difficult, bloody, and very long. The Enclave probably have records of the initial construction efforts, and it is possible the institute was originally a vault (that or beth re-used assets in a bad place) which would mean the Enclave have or had access to it via the Vault-Tec headquarters. That connection was probably exploited by the Institute as shown by the remote overrides that have put vault 111 on lockdown. However, actually invading the Institute would be extremely difficult without a Deus Ex Machina, and the institute's teleporter allows for unparalleled mobility within the commonwealth for a quick rear assault on supply lines. Even just teleporting in a fertilizer bomb could devastate the Enclave's supply lines, denying them things like parts, ammo, medicine, and food for the war effort. Both groups have shown an aptitude for manipulating the general populace, but the Enclave's ruthless tactics and hatred for wastelanders, compared to the Institutes apathy, could be exploited by institute propaganda. They could use it as a justification for their past actions, as staying hidden and building an army to defeat the Enclave could potentially win the commonwealth over, or at least get them to stop attacking synths and target the enclave. Finally, the Institute's superior reconnaissance on the Boston area, and ability to replace the raider-gang leaders, would allow them to wage a guerilla war on the Enclave.

[lelcat]

The Institute has:

• Synths. Lots of synths. But most are not combat models, and; except for the Coursers; are unprepared and untrained for a fight. I also seem to remember that all synths have electronic components which would be susceptible to EMP discharges. That means an untrained trooper could simply carry a EMP discharge device and stroll almost unmolested into the heart of the Institute.
• Laser Weapons (albeit blue lasers). These weapons are pretty much ineffective against advanced Power Armor. I know, I attacked in X-01 Power Armor and my armor took very little damage, and I took none.
• A teleporter. One. Destroy it and Institute reinforcements are not coming quickly. There is also no quick evacuation once this device is disabled.

The Institute does not Have:

• Military training. In a firefight, the Institute defenders would be hard pressed to mount a cohesive defense. Pockets of resistance would be swept up by trained troopers.
• Detailed Intelligence. The Institute has no advanced knowledge for the Enclaves weapons and tactics.

The Enclave has:

• Advanced military training. The Enclave has seasoned and bloodied troops. These troopers have trained and work as a cohesive unit. They will not be distracted by the fog of war.
• Laser and Plasma weapons. Like the Institutes lasers, these weapons are pretty ineffective against heavily armored targets. But the Institute Synths are not heavily armored. So these weapons should be effective.
• Power Armor. As has been demonstrated before, Power Armor is susceptible to EMP. So if the Enclave comes in wearing Power Armor, they cannot use their most advantageous weapon, an EMP pulse device. Unless they send in troops with EMP pulse devices first to disable the bulk of the synths and then send in the Power Armor troops to deal with the institute synths in detail.

What the Enclave does not have:

• Advanced intelligence of the Institute interior. The Enclave has no understanding of the interior paths and structures within the Institute. Because of the design of the interior, advancing troops could get disoriented and lost.
• Advanced intelligence of Institute military capability. Up until the actual encounter, the Enclave is working from the seat of their trousers. They have virtually no knowledge of the quantity or type of training the inhabitants of the Institute may have.

With advanced intelligence, the Enclave has a definite advantage. But they do not have that intelligence. And a lack of intelligence breeds doubt. Doubt breeds fear. Fear causes even the best trained troops to hesitate.

 

Since the Enclave does not have the requisite intelligence, its a toss-up. Got a coin.

I think you are basing how powerful a faction is on how mean their powerarmor helmet looks. And at the same time because you saw the Institute, everyone running around in labcoats that they are smarter.

The enclave was never a fully developed thing. Not even in Fallout 2. And if we apply logic, the Enclave did not stop existing because a player pressed a button in Fallout 3. It is just their command computer got turned off. It's not like all the enclave people will simply stop existing after that.

 

It all comes down to simple manpower. But I dont think data exists in the lore on how many people belong to each faction across the US.

 

 

 

 

• Synths. Lots of synths. But most are not combat models, and; except for the Coursers; are unprepared and untrained for a fight. I also seem to remember that all synths have electronic components which would be susceptible to EMP discharges. That means an untrained trooper could simply carry a EMP discharge device and stroll almost unmolested into the heart of the Institute.

That would be a bad idea as it would shut down all electrical systems on a power armor and on a vertibird. And all radios and communication devices.

Edited July 3, 2016 by lelcat

[RattleAndGrind]

 

The Institute has:

• Synths. Lots of synths. But most are not combat models, and; except for the Coursers; are unprepared and untrained for a fight. I also seem to remember that all synths have electronic components which would be susceptible to EMP discharges. That means an untrained trooper could simply carry a EMP discharge device and stroll almost unmolested into the heart of the Institute.
• Laser Weapons (albeit blue lasers). These weapons are pretty much ineffective against advanced Power Armor. I know, I attacked in X-01 Power Armor and my armor took very little damage, and I took none.
• A teleporter. One. Destroy it and Institute reinforcements are not coming quickly. There is also no quick evacuation once this device is disabled.

The Institute does not Have:

• Military training. In a firefight, the Institute defenders would be hard pressed to mount a cohesive defense. Pockets of resistance would be swept up by trained troopers.
• Detailed Intelligence. The Institute has no advanced knowledge for the Enclaves weapons and tactics.

The Enclave has:

• Advanced military training. The Enclave has seasoned and bloodied troops. These troopers have trained and work as a cohesive unit. They will not be distracted by the fog of war.
• Laser and Plasma weapons. Like the Institutes lasers, these weapons are pretty ineffective against heavily armored targets. But the Institute Synths are not heavily armored. So these weapons should be effective.
• Power Armor. As has been demonstrated before, Power Armor is susceptible to EMP. So if the Enclave comes in wearing Power Armor, they cannot use their most advantageous weapon, an EMP pulse device. Unless they send in troops with EMP pulse devices first to disable the bulk of the synths and then send in the Power Armor troops to deal with the institute synths in detail.

What the Enclave does not have:

• Advanced intelligence of the Institute interior. The Enclave has no understanding of the interior paths and structures within the Institute. Because of the design of the interior, advancing troops could get disoriented and lost.
• Advanced intelligence of Institute military capability. Up until the actual encounter, the Enclave is working from the seat of their trousers. They have virtually no knowledge of the quantity or type of training the inhabitants of the Institute may have.

With advanced intelligence, the Enclave has a definite advantage. But they do not have that intelligence. And a lack of intelligence breeds doubt. Doubt breeds fear. Fear causes even the best trained troops to hesitate.

 

Since the Enclave does not have the requisite intelligence, its a toss-up. Got a coin.

I think you are basing how powerful a faction is on how mean their powerarmor helmet looks. And at the same time because you saw the Institute, everyone running around in labcoats that they are smarter.

The enclave was never a fully developed thing. Not even in Fallout 2. And if we apply logic, the Enclave did not stop existing because a player pressed a button in Fallout 3. It is just their command computer got turned off. It's not like all the enclave people will simply stop existing after that.

 

It all comes down to simple manpower. But I dont think data exists in the lore on how many people belong to each faction across the US.

 

 

 

 

• Synths. Lots of synths. But most are not combat models, and; except for the Coursers; are unprepared and untrained for a fight. I also seem to remember that all synths have electronic components which would be susceptible to EMP discharges. That means an untrained trooper could simply carry a EMP discharge device and stroll almost unmolested into the heart of the Institute.

That would be a bad idea as it would shut down all electrical systems on a power armor and on a vertibird. And all radios and communication devices.

 

When discussing military operations, the word "Intelligence" has nothing to do with how smart a person is or how much education someone has. "Intelligence" is information, knowledge of your enemies strengths and weaknesses, an inventory of their weapons, a comprehension of the effectiveness of their training, an enumeration of their manpower, the abilities of their leaders, the structure of their encampments, and their normal response patterns. That is intelligence. And now you know what intelligence is, should you ever decide to acquire some.

 

And about your EMP comment. Just what the fish do you think this means?

 

• Power Armor. As has been demonstrated before, Power Armor is susceptible to EMP. So if the Enclave comes in wearing Power Armor, they cannot use their most advantageous weapon, an EMP pulse device. Unless they send in troops with EMP pulse devices first to disable the bulk of the synths and then send in the Power Armor troops to deal with the institute synths in detail.

Maybe you should read and comprehend the whole comment before you start typing.

Edited July 3, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[RattleAndGrind]

So in the scenario with the Institute attacking the Enclave, I think you have to give the Institute a definite advantage. Their synths can appear anywhere at any time with the relay, which should help them catch the Enclave by surprise and get to their flanks or surround them. Then there is also the fact that the synths are machines. They are disposable assets which are mass produced, whereas every Enclave casualty is a non-replaceable person. The Institute would eventually overwhelm the Enclave with sheer numbers.

Ok. Please consider.

 

It is the majority opinion that an EMP disables synths pretty effectively. So synth combatants are at a distinct disadvantage where they are used, even synths which have infiltrated the Enclave power structure. One good EMP pulse and the only threat a synth poses is a sprained ankle while attempting to navigate around them. And before you start pointing at power armor and saying "But ... EMP ... disable power armor", the Enclave doesn't need power to defeat synths. Just a good EMP weapon. Now where did I leave that EMP Pistol I grabbed from that Mojave vault?

 

That leaves you with Institute humans as the primary combatants. The vast majority of the human inhabitants in the Institute have never seen the sky. They are used to the cloistered world which is the Institute. If forced out into the open, they will most likely suffer one or more of the following conditions:

• confusion and disorientation
• agoraphobia
• panic attack
• anxiety
• or just plain fear of the unknown.

Not the best things for your combatants to be dealing with while attacking fortified positions under fire.

 

Several have commented that the Institute can crank out synths like they were Gum Drops. But I question that assumption. There is the matter of raw materials. There is a finite amount of material available inside the confines of the Institute for manufacturing synths. Should the Institute initiate hostilities, the supply lines for these raw materials will be compromised, thus limiting or severing the Institutes ability to manufacture more synths.

 

And about that molecular relay. As was demonstrated

in the end game when the institute is destroyed by either the Minutemen or the Railroad,

this device is not a freeway. It has a limited capacity and cannot send/receive large volumes of material (considering humans as just so much material). So it will be ineffective as a tool to get large volumes of reinforcements out while simultaneously attempting to import large quantities of raw materials.

 

So I do not see the Institute attacking anyone outside of the confines of the Institute. They are just not adequately prepared psychologically, physically or militarily.

 

Now if you postulate more than one molecular relay, unlimited raw materials and a EMP dampener, then there is no need for discussion. Or is there? Why not postulate a synth detector with a auto-kill function, a tunneling thermo-nuclear device, and immortal winged unicorns carrying deified Enclave troops into battle.

 

But we all have opinions. And we all also know what opinions are like.

Edited July 3, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[RattleAndGrind]

I was just giving the counter-argument. Don't get miffed when people disagree with you. It happens.

I am not upset because you disagree. I do not really give a fish if you disagree. I was short because you summarily dismissed a well reasoned set of arguments and did not supply any reasoned, rational or intelligent (the non military kind) arguments to counter balance what I presented. In the world of courteous discourse, one presents cohesive reasons and logic for rejecting a position. You want a respectful response then present something worthy of respect, something reasoned, something intelligent, something that has some basis in the realities that is (or at least should be) the Enclave and the Institute and present something that is more than broad generalities and regurgitated pap.

 

Your comment was simply that of a three year old child pushing their vegetables away while saying in that whiny nasal voice of a child, "I don't like it".

Edited July 3, 2016 by RattleAndGrind

[yasmoli]

Hmmm, I think if there was an actual war between the two, the Institute would win in the short term. That is, they can effectively strike hard and fast-- taking the Enclave by surprise using the synths to infiltrate their defences. But they'd have to ensure they defeat the Enclave in it's entirety in that first hit. If not, well, with the sheer amount of intelligence-gathering resources (is there a single word for that?) the Enclave has access to, it'd only be a matter of time before they regroup and pinpoint the Institute's location.

And we all saw how quickly the Institute was brought to its knees once the Sole Survivor found out where they were.

Then, with the advanced combat tech the Enclave has access to the Institute would get squashed like a bug in no time. Like RattleAndGrind said, once the Enclave use their tech to figure out how to defeat synths (EMP weapons, etc.), the Institute are defenseless. When you rely so heavily on one type of weapon, your enemy will start using it against you.

The Institute's power lies in stealth. The Enclave's power lies in knowing things and using brute force to get them.

 

 

However, if this 'tech off' is based purely on, well, technology, then synthetic humans so advanced that they can't be told apart from real humans wins hands down. And also teleporters :smile:

Edited July 3, 2016 by yasmoli

[thunderlord2200]

i would think the enclave would have a easy way in telling is one of there leaders or even someone in the troop was a synth since they all have something in there brain and all. easy to detect and destroy. have rooms for testing EMP on everyone and synths even vs 3s have no protection from a EMP blast..

[CiderMuffin]

Enclave don't have EMPs though and the only EMP we've seen in lore or game was in New Vegas and it's design was to make power armor stop working. So the Enclave using EMPs on the battlefield would hurt them.

 

As for Synths they'd have no way to detect Gen 3s without x-rays or dissection. The Institute could probably easily infiltrate them as a simple DNA test won't work and trying to scan every member on a regular basis wouldn't work all that well and waste time and energy.

 

The Enclave would lose because they always lose and they always underestimate their enemies. They underestimated the Chosen One, they underestimated the NCR, they underestimated the BoS. They're just bound to lose. The simple fact that the Institute can make more units with the Enclave's only way to re-populate their ranks would take decades because death to everyone but us ideology.

Edited July 5, 2016 by CiderMuffin

[Ethreon]

Enclave don't have EMPs though and the only EMP we've seen in lore or game was in New Vegas and it's design was to make power armor stop working. So the Enclave using EMPs on the battlefield would hurt them.

 

As for Synths they'd have no way to detect Gen 3s without x-rays or dissection. The Institute could probably easily infiltrate them as a simple DNA test won't work and trying to scan every member on a regular basis wouldn't work all that well and waste time and energy.

 

The Enclave would lose because they always lose and they always underestimate their enemies. They underestimated the Chosen One, they underestimated the NCR, they underestimated the BoS. They're just bound to lose. The simple fact that the Institute can make more units with the Enclave's only way to re-populate their ranks would take decades because death to everyone but us ideology.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pulse_grenade_(Fallout)

[CiderMuffin]

 

Enclave don't have EMPs though and the only EMP we've seen in lore or game was in New Vegas and it's design was to make power armor stop working. So the Enclave using EMPs on the battlefield would hurt them.

 

As for Synths they'd have no way to detect Gen 3s without x-rays or dissection. The Institute could probably easily infiltrate them as a simple DNA test won't work and trying to scan every member on a regular basis wouldn't work all that well and waste time and energy.

 

The Enclave would lose because they always lose and they always underestimate their enemies. They underestimated the Chosen One, they underestimated the NCR, they underestimated the BoS. They're just bound to lose. The simple fact that the Institute can make more units with the Enclave's only way to re-populate their ranks would take decades because death to everyone but us ideology.

http://fallout.wikia.com/wiki/Pulse_grenade_(Fallout)

 

This shows how little I use grenades :tongue: totally forgot pulse grenades were a thing. Still, apparently they only effect gen 1 and 2 from what I've just read by searching on google and due to Gen 1 and 2 becoming obsolete I don't think using pulse weaponry on Gen 3 will work out.

 

The Enclave also doesn't know that nor would they have an infinite amount of pulse weaponry and again, the institute could just make more and more to replace damaged units. So it's pretty much a moot point.

 

Hmmm, I think if there was an actual war between the two, the Institute would win in the short term. That is, they can effectively strike hard and fast-- taking the Enclave by surprise using the synths to infiltrate their defences. But they'd have to ensure they defeat the Enclave in it's entirety in that first hit. If not, well, with the sheer amount of intelligence-gathering resources (is there a single word for that?) the Enclave has access to, it'd only be a matter of time before they regroup and pinpoint the Institute's location.

And we all saw how quickly the Institute was brought to its knees once the Sole Survivor found out where they were.

Then, with the advanced combat tech the Enclave has access to the Institute would get squashed like a bug in no time. Like RattleAndGrind said, once the Enclave use their tech to figure out how to defeat synths (EMP weapons, etc.), the Institute are defenseless. When you rely so heavily on one type of weapon, your enemy will start using it against you.

The Institute's power lies in stealth. The Enclave's power lies in knowing things and using brute force to get them.

 

 

However, if this 'tech off' is based purely on, well, technology, then synthetic humans so advanced that they can't be told apart from real humans wins hands down. And also teleporters :smile:

Ok so like, where are people getting this whole "the enclave has a massive intelligence force" thing? The Enclave aren't spy masters, they don't have information on everything. The most they had info on were vaults, old world bunkers and pre-war tech, that's it. The Institute wasn't built and founded until after the Great War by C.I.T. survivors. They would know nothing about the Institute nor would they be able to get any intel on them besides what is common knowledge.

Edited July 5, 2016 by CiderMuffin