Boycott Beth.net

[TimeLadyKatie]

Some of us are getting 40% cuts of the game assets we create in MMO games that are played by millions.

 

These companies have supplied the market, they take care of the sales, there is a built in consumer base and they lend credibility to your work by hosting it.

 

I'd love to get a 50% cut, but given what the company provides (something no individual or small team could do), 40% is very generous.

 

The 25% cut I heard they used with Steam-Valve is really the bare minimum I'd like to see.

40% is amazingly generous. Your 'bare minimum' is still pretty nice compared to what some of us make in our day jobs.

Edited July 18, 2016 by TimeLadyKatie

[lelcat]

 

2 things. You forgot that the consumer gets something new that he paid $4 for, that he wouldn't have had to pay money for in the past. So its not a WIN WIN WIN its a loose win win. Company and modder win whereas the consumer looses. I don't think I need to prove this when you look at the massive backlash from the original paid modding attempt. Its obvious.

 

Lastly, at least from what ive seen, most modders are leaving right now because of bethesda.net and its poor design the harassment from the userbase there and rampant mod theft. Not because theres no paid modding. At least thats what I see.

 

1. You are wrong. If a user pays 4$ for something, then he pays money for something he would not get for that level of quality before. And you can bet money (for real!) than something with a 4$ price tag will be of much higher quality. I worked my tush off for 3 weeks on Murphy Wildlands to get it ready for the Nvivida contest. Money is one hell of a motivator. Sure I would have paid the same level of attention to detail without the prospect of money, but I would have worked a lot slower.

At this point you are just begging for cheaper prices or trying to block paid mods because you don't get a cut. And that backlash was 100% not modders who might make money but users who are angry at someone making money without them getting a cut. Basic envy. The hilarious thing is that people come up with all types of imaginary arguments on how a modder (soemone else than the complainer) making money.

Envy is an emotion that is impossible to control, one can only conceal it. Here is a test: Watch some reporters asking random people on the street whether a certain profession is right to strike to get an x % of wage increase. Most people will say it is not just or fair and use very graphic language. Just because they are not getting a cut of it.

 

2. I was not harassed once on Bethesda.net and I like how the mod site is seamlessly integrated into the game.

[TimeLadyKatie]

 

 

2 things. You forgot that the consumer gets something new that he paid $4 for, that he wouldn't have had to pay money for in the past. So its not a WIN WIN WIN its a loose win win. Company and modder win whereas the consumer looses. I don't think I need to prove this when you look at the massive backlash from the original paid modding attempt. Its obvious.

 

Lastly, at least from what ive seen, most modders are leaving right now because of bethesda.net and its poor design the harassment from the userbase there and rampant mod theft. Not because theres no paid modding. At least thats what I see.

 

1. You are wrong. If a user pays 4$ for something, then he pays money for something he would not get for that level of quality before. And you can bet money (for real!) than something with a 4$ price tag will be of much higher quality. I worked my tush off for 3 weeks on Murphy Wildlands to get it ready for the Nvivida contest. Money is one hell of a motivator. Sure I would have paid the same level of attention to detail without the prospect of money, but I would have worked a lot slower.

This is a bit naiive, I think. It's fair to say that this is the intent of how the system would work, but at the same time I'm reminded of the "One Extra Apple" mod the first time paid mods came around. And there's almost no incentive to not slap a price tag on something available now for free other than a vague sense of what people ought to do.

 

So let's say I was a fairly self-important modder, I would feel perfectly justified taking what I charged nothing for before and charging 5$ for it now without a single change in operational quality of the mod. While the modders I know aren't the kind of people who do that kind of thing, you're bound to find that "one extra" bad apple who will do that sort of thing. And probably a small but noteworthy percent of the modding community will see no real need to change their content to justify the additional cost.

 

And I'm not even sure they should.

 

See, if you think about it, the mods already should be of the highest quality they can be, right? So if paid modding returns, which is pure speculation at this point, why should they feel compelled to not charge for the product as it already exists?

[Ethreon]

If any of you believe you're getting way better mods cause suddenly mods are paid for you're in for a some surprises.

[lelcat]

 

 

 

2 things. You forgot that the consumer gets something new that he paid $4 for, that he wouldn't have had to pay money for in the past. So its not a WIN WIN WIN its a loose win win. Company and modder win whereas the consumer looses. I don't think I need to prove this when you look at the massive backlash from the original paid modding attempt. Its obvious.

 

Lastly, at least from what ive seen, most modders are leaving right now because of bethesda.net and its poor design the harassment from the userbase there and rampant mod theft. Not because theres no paid modding. At least thats what I see.

 

1. You are wrong. If a user pays 4$ for something, then he pays money for something he would not get for that level of quality before. And you can bet money (for real!) than something with a 4$ price tag will be of much higher quality. I worked my tush off for 3 weeks on Murphy Wildlands to get it ready for the Nvivida contest. Money is one hell of a motivator. Sure I would have paid the same level of attention to detail without the prospect of money, but I would have worked a lot slower.

This is a bit naiive, I think. It's fair to say that this is the intent of how the system would work, but at the same time I'm reminded of the "One Extra Apple" mod the first time paid mods came around. And there's almost no incentive to not slap a price tag on something available now for free other than a vague sense of what people ought to do.

 

So let's say I was a fairly self-important modder, I would feel perfectly justified taking what I charged nothing for before and charging 5$ for it now without a single change in operational quality of the mod. While the modders I know aren't the kind of people who do that kind of thing, you're bound to find that "one extra" bad apple who will do that sort of thing. And probably a small but noteworthy percent of the modding community will see no real need to change their content to justify the additional cost.

 

And I'm not even sure they should.

 

See, if you think about it, the mods already should be of the highest quality they can be, right? So if paid modding returns, which is pure speculation at this point, why should they feel compelled to not charge for the product as it already exists?

 

Just putting a price tag on something that is 100% the same and was for free before, would not work for two reasons:

 

1. Players who already have the mod won't pay extra, because they already have it.

2. Modders who want to put a price tag on an existing product will obviously add some stuff on top of it to add value to it. Because if they don't, the perceived worth of their products will go down. Free market magic will handle it. Here is an example:

 

Modder A sells his old mod, which is 100% identical to the free version for 4 $. Modder B creates a similar product but of better quality for the same price. People will stop buying the inferior product and modder A is out of business unless he steps his game up.

 

 

 

If any of you believe you're getting way better mods cause suddenly mods are paid for you're in for a some surprises.

There are no surprises. trash mods will get bad ratings within hours. Imagine someone selling apples for 1 dollar per apple. Then some other guy sells apples for 100$ per apple. And unless eating that 100$ will make rainbow ponies appear in the sky, these 100$ apples will vanish.

 

The market will adjust the price until a level is found that keeps the modder and customer happy.

[TimeLadyKatie]

 

 

 

 

2 things. You forgot that the consumer gets something new that he paid $4 for, that he wouldn't have had to pay money for in the past. So its not a WIN WIN WIN its a loose win win. Company and modder win whereas the consumer looses. I don't think I need to prove this when you look at the massive backlash from the original paid modding attempt. Its obvious.

 

Lastly, at least from what ive seen, most modders are leaving right now because of bethesda.net and its poor design the harassment from the userbase there and rampant mod theft. Not because theres no paid modding. At least thats what I see.

 

1. You are wrong. If a user pays 4$ for something, then he pays money for something he would not get for that level of quality before. And you can bet money (for real!) than something with a 4$ price tag will be of much higher quality. I worked my tush off for 3 weeks on Murphy Wildlands to get it ready for the Nvivida contest. Money is one hell of a motivator. Sure I would have paid the same level of attention to detail without the prospect of money, but I would have worked a lot slower.

This is a bit naiive, I think. It's fair to say that this is the intent of how the system would work, but at the same time I'm reminded of the "One Extra Apple" mod the first time paid mods came around. And there's almost no incentive to not slap a price tag on something available now for free other than a vague sense of what people ought to do.

 

So let's say I was a fairly self-important modder, I would feel perfectly justified taking what I charged nothing for before and charging 5$ for it now without a single change in operational quality of the mod. While the modders I know aren't the kind of people who do that kind of thing, you're bound to find that "one extra" bad apple who will do that sort of thing. And probably a small but noteworthy percent of the modding community will see no real need to change their content to justify the additional cost.

 

And I'm not even sure they should.

 

See, if you think about it, the mods already should be of the highest quality they can be, right? So if paid modding returns, which is pure speculation at this point, why should they feel compelled to not charge for the product as it already exists?

 

Just putting a price tag on something that is 100% the same and was for free before, would not work for two reasons:

 

1. Players who already have the mod won't pay extra, because they already have it.

2. Modders who want to put a price tag on an existing product will obviously add some stuff on top of it to add value to it. Because if they don't, the perceived worth of their products will go down. Free market magic will handle it. Here is an example:

 

Modder A sells his old mod, which is 100% identical to the free version for 4 $. Modder B creates a similar product but of better quality for the same price. People will stop buying the inferior product and modder A is out of business unless he steps his game up.

 

 

 

If any of you believe you're getting way better mods cause suddenly mods are paid for you're in for a some surprises.

There are no surprises. trash mods will get bad ratings within hours. Imagine someone selling apples for 1 dollar per apple. Then some other guy sells apples for 100$ per apple. And unless eating that 100$ will make rainbow ponies appear in the sky, these 100$ apples will vanish.

 

The market will adjust the price until a level is found that keeps the modder and customer happy.

 

 

Someone read too much Adam Smith.

 

Okay, so basically, this is how it would work if people weren't people. If everyone behaved exactly the way that market theory dictates, the problems would solve themselves. But people do not behave rationally and will buck the expectations of the system for any number of reasons.

 

Assume, for a moment, that I make a mod that's easily copied. Say, something that stops the new radio files from starting after Confidence Man. That's a pretty simple edit that I'm actually not quite sure I'm not just doing right now instead of talking about it. But I knock it out in an afternoon and toss it out on Nexus. Then, two years from now, paid modding returns. Well, there probably won't be a lot of people who want my mod but don't have it yet, but I'll take it down from free hosting services and put it up on commercial ones. Not a single change to the file. Even if not many people download the paid version, I've still managed to pull some profit from the work.

 

Now, someone comes along with a mod that does the same thing. They decry me for having 'sold out' by moving my mod to a paid model, but theirs is on the paid site as well. Which of us is the 'bad guy'? Me for discontinuing free access to my mod or the copycat for trying to release the same product based on the idea that I'm a sellout?

 

And even if his mod is cleaner than mine, or somehow slightly more streamlined, what is the practical difference to the player? Other than he says his is better?

 

And consider something without an easy replication, like a questmod or a voiced companion. If I follow the same model of moving it to a paid distributor without any marked changes or increases in quality, you can't reasonably release a mod that does the same thing better or does the same thing free because by its nature what I made is unique. Short of mod theft you can't create the exact same product.

 

Now let's look at two similar ideas tackling the same thing. Let's say that I move an Easy City Downs race betting mod to a paid platform without meaningfully changing it, and someone else makes their own. By some measure or other, theirs can be claimed 'better' than mine. But still, both will likely continue to collect purchases. Both Minutemen 2.0 and We Are The Minutemen tackle the same problem in different ways, and both are top-downloaded faction mods.

 

So, essentially, the ideology of the perfect free market solution doesn't actually work in the real world. The market doesn't solve the problem of people making a quick buck, it actually actively encourages them to.

 

And again, I'm not completely convinced this is a bad thing. It sucks for consumers, sure, but I'm not sure that makes it wrong.

 

As for the failure of "trash mods", a mod that added a single extra apple to Skyrim was a smash success. You cannot count on the consumers to make rational decisions on quality of product either.

Edited July 18, 2016 by TimeLadyKatie

[MasterMagnus]

Some people seem to think this is a binary choice.

 

@Alexotero1219

 

I didn't forget anything. What you fail to grasp is simple: The existance of paid mods does not mean the end of free mods, both will continue to exist.

 

Also, I am not of the belief that paid mods will raise quality.

 

Money is actually NOT a good motivator. Many studies have shown once you are able to eat and have a roof over your head raising salary does little to motivate people. What studies have shown to be the biggest motivator is recognition, in a business or community.

 

And as I mentioned above, nobody should get into it for the money.

 

Do what you love, the money is always extra icing on the cake.

Edited July 18, 2016 by MasterMagnus

[soupdragon1234]

Unions have been hamstrung in the Uk - first by Thatcher and more recently by Camerons tories - I would go into detail but your only hearing what you want to and answering the points you delusionally believe you have some sort of clue about.

 

How many communists believe that Capitalism is a fantastic theory in practice for example?

 

I'm not going to waste my breath on someone who's mind is closed to new concepts, opinions or ideas.

 

Good bloody job too, anyone who remembers the endless strikes of the '70's knows it had to change. And the unions are still stuffing the Rail service on Southern, high levels of sick leave, absenteeism, until someone gets a grip and deals with the damn unions we'll continue to see this nonsense. And anti-capitalist, gimme free handouts, Momentum and others on the extreme Left that support Corbyn is exactly why Labour will never get back into power. And good damn riddance. If only Cameron had the guts to grab the unions by the balls he probably woudn't be out off office now.

 

/rant

 

The other irony here is that despite all the grousing PC players are doing, the download numbers betray a truth: Even PC players are using Bethesda.net more than Nexus. The UFO4P has more downloads and views than it does here, by a significant enough number to matter. This isn't a bad thing either. It means people are simply choosing what's convenient for them, and I see nothing wrong with that.

 

 

Thats probably go something to do with the fact its easier to download via the game interface than it is to log in here and downlod with NMM or manually install (still running NMM 0.56 here and the one mod I have downloaded... came from Bethesda.net) :ermm:

 

'Cos script compiling issues. Like the latest versions of NMM MO has problems with getting scripts put in the correct folders too, there are ways around it or so I've heard but I can't be bothered faffing around with it.

[TimeLadyKatie]

 

Money is actually NOT a good motivator. Many studies have shown once you are able to eat and have a roof over your head raising salary does little to motivate people. What studies have shown to be the biggest motivator is recognition, in a business or community.

 

There's a good TED talk on this point and on motivation in general.

[DOOMBASED]

If any of you believe you're getting way better mods cause suddenly mods are paid for you're in for a some surprises.

Well, I think that it is partly true. I know some game devs, not going to name any names, but they told me they would definitely put more time into creating better mods if paid mods were a thing.