Boycott Beth.net

[Thumblesteen]

 

Really? Show me any legal reference, anywhere, within UK/EU/US law, which states that all modding is exempt from declaring income when conducting commercial transactions unlike every single other enterprise. To declare income, you need to register as a company. Doesn't matter what business you run, or what product you sell, you need to register as a company. Because not only is income tax pretty much universal in most legal systems since the 1930's; There's also the possibility of VATs and sales taxes.

You flat out don't know what you're talking about here. NONE of that was necessary AT ALL to sell mods on Valve's platform. They do not require you to register as an LLC.

 

The only thing they do, when the time comes, is mail you a 1099-C form telling you what was withheld from your sales and sent to the IRS. That's it. No, I'm not going to scan in my 1099-C to show you. Either you know I'm right or you're just here to spread entirely false information about how this worked once already.

 

tl;dr: You weren't there. You know nothing.

 

 

1. I don't live in America. I live in continental Europe. Very different laws. But, aside from how people are therefore excluded from paid modding due to the practical and legal limitations of registering as self-employed to report income, there's some long term effects to consider as well.

 

2. I was there, and I watched the disaster unfold first hand.

 

3. Making condescending remarks like "You know nothing." says more about you than it does about anyone else.

 

Now, since paid modding abjectly failed before we could see the long term effects of industrialising mods, I'll just list what would have happened:

 

- Good bye net neutrality. Now you've commodified web traffic. The meritocracy is dead, and you need to buy an audience with competitive advertising. Survival of the fittest becomes survival of the fattest.

 

- With market competition, the atmosphere will change drastically. Newcomers will be completely shut out, as tutorials become trade secrets, and there is a direct financial incentive to withhold helpful information. Before you know it, you need to take modding courses and pay tuition to learn how to mod.

 

- There's also a financial incentive to hinder, sabotage and otherwise limit rival mod content. The community will have far less choices as a result.

 

- An art form becomes an industry. Which is how Citizen Kane turns into Snakes on a Plane. Expect a flood of commercialised low quality nonsense intended to appeal to the most broad and vacuous demographics possible.

 

- An industry as small and unregulated as paid modding is stupidly easy to monopolise if someone just generates enough revenue. Before you know it, three or four "modding studios" will control the majority of content and traffic. Warner Brothers, Nestlé, Ubisoft, and so on. Every industry has them, and with paid modding it will be even easier to establish a corporate aristocracy.

 

- How long before people begin to patent modding techniques and methods to assure nobody makes free equivalents of them? Asset protection is a massive part of financialism. Expect more and more legal obstacles as time passes.

 

- Unless you're a lawyer, then chances are that your Terms of Service is full of exploits and ambiguous language that predatory modding companies can use to appropriate and even copyright your assets. Moderators on the Nexus operate on common sense to protect assets; Lawyers don't.

 

And most importantly of all, modding is a fun hobby. It's something people do to express themselves, and share content with other players. To hold it for ransom, or to create a toxic environment in which people fight one another over immediate gain will completely ruin that. The community who once got content for free is now expected to pay for it. The modders who once were driven by inspiration and joy of creating, are alienated only to be replaced by people who are motivated by their own selfish gain. I develop games commercially as well, and to me, modding is about getting away from that horrible climate and just focus on what truly matters. Namely, creation for creation's sake. To actually have fun, and do something with some kind of meaning. I don't see why anyone would possibly take away the many virtues of modding in an effort to turn it into yet another business dominion. You can find that literally everywhere else. This is an oasis for all intents and purposes, and if people can't see the benefits that come with sharing a fun experience with others for it's own sake, then, I feel sorry for them. I'm extremely grateful to the people who use my mods, I could never think of demanding anything from them.

Edited September 6, 2016 by Thumblesteen

[tawatabak]

 

 

Really? Show me any legal reference, anywhere, within UK/EU/US law, which states that all modding is exempt from declaring income when conducting commercial transactions unlike every single other enterprise. To declare income, you need to register as a company. Doesn't matter what business you run, or what product you sell, you need to register as a company. Because not only is income tax pretty much universal in most legal systems since the 1930's; There's also the possibility of VATs and sales taxes.

You flat out don't know what you're talking about here. NONE of that was necessary AT ALL to sell mods on Valve's platform. They do not require you to register as an LLC.

 

The only thing they do, when the time comes, is mail you a 1099-C form telling you what was withheld from your sales and sent to the IRS. That's it. No, I'm not going to scan in my 1099-C to show you. Either you know I'm right or you're just here to spread entirely false information about how this worked once already.

 

tl;dr: You weren't there. You know nothing.

 

 

1. I don't live in America. I live in continental Europe. Very different laws. But, aside from how people are therefore excluded from paid modding due to the practical and legal limitations of registering as self-employed to report income, there's some long term effects to consider as well.

 

2. I was there, and I watched the disaster unfold first hand.

 

3. Making condescending remarks like "You know nothing." says more about you than it does about anyone else.

 

Now, since paid modding abjectly failed before we could see the long term effects of industrialising mods, I'll just list what would have happened:

 

- Good bye net neutrality. Now you've commodified web traffic. The meritocracy is dead, and you need to buy an audience with competitive advertising. Survival of the fittest becomes survival of the fattest.

 

- With market competition, the atmosphere will change drastically. Newcomers will be completely shut out, as tutorials become trade secrets, and there is a direct financial incentive to withhold helpful information. Before you know it, you need to take modding courses and pay tuition to learn how to mod.

 

- There's also a financial incentive to hinder, sabotage and otherwise limit rival mod content. The community will have far less choices as a result.

 

- An art form becomes an industry. Which is how Citizen Kane turns into Snakes on a Plane. Expect a flood of commercialised low quality nonsense intended to appeal to the most broad and vacuous demographics possible.

 

- An industry as small and unregulated as paid modding is stupidly easy to monopolise if someone just generates enough revenue. Before you know it, three or four "modding studios" will control the majority of content and traffic. Warner Brothers, Nestlé, Ubisoft, and so on. Every industry has them, and with paid modding it will be even easier to establish a corporate aristocracy.

 

- How long before people begin to patent modding techniques and methods to assure nobody makes free equivalents of them? Asset protection is a massive part of financialism. Expect more and more legal obstacles as time passes.

 

- Unless you're a lawyer, then chances are that your Terms of Service is full of exploits and ambiguous language that predatory modding companies can use to appropriate and even copyright your assets. Moderators on the Nexus operate on common sense to protect assets; Lawyers don't.

 

And most importantly of all, modding is a fun hobby. It's something people do to express themselves, and share content with other players. To hold it for ransom, or to create a toxic environment in which people fight one another over immediate gain will completely ruin that. The community who once got content for free is now expected to pay for it. The modders who once were driven by inspiration and joy of creating, are alienated only to be replaced by people who are motivated by their own selfish gain. I develop games commercially as well, and to me, modding is about getting away from that horrible climate and just focus on what truly matters. Namely, creation for creation's sake. To actually have fun, and do something with some kind of meaning. I don't see why anyone would possibly take away the many virtues of modding in an effort to turn it into yet another business dominion. You can find that literally everywhere else. This is an oasis for all intents and purposes, and if people can't see the benefits that come with sharing a fun experience with others for it's own sake, then, I feel sorry for them. I'm extremely grateful to the people who use my mods, I could never think of demanding anything from them.

 

this

[Reneer]

Now, since paid modding abjectly failed before we could see the long term effects of industrialising mods, I'll just list what would have happened:

 

- Good bye net neutrality. Now you've commodified web traffic. The meritocracy is dead, and you need to buy an audience with competitive advertising. Survival of the fittest becomes survival of the fattest.

Net neutrality is about internet providers giving equal speed / priority to all data, regardless of the source. The existence of paid modding would have no effect upon net neutrality.

 

- With market competition, the atmosphere will change drastically. Newcomers will be completely shut out, as tutorials become trade secrets, and there is a direct financial incentive to withhold helpful information. Before you know it, you need to take modding courses and pay tuition to learn how to mod.

This is flat out wrong. You can get absolutely free tutorials in numerous places on the Internet, both for general programming and videogame design. Are there companies offering videogame programming / design tutorials for a fee? Yes. But there are also good, free alternatives like GameDev, Khan Academy (which offers a programming course for free), Udemy, and Tutsplus Game Development. Just as there are free and paid tutorials for videogame programming / design, there will be free and paid tutorials for developing mods when paid mods come back.

 

- There's also a financial incentive to hinder, sabotage and otherwise limit rival mod content. The community will have far less choices as a result.

Financial incentive exists to hinder or sabotage "rivals" in any industry. The reason you don't see it all that often is because the risk / reward is simply too great. If a mod author actively tries to hinder the work of another mod author and gets caught, they will likely see a drastic drop in sales because they have used tactics that ultimately hurt mod users.

 

- An art form becomes an industry. Which is how Citizen Kane turns into Snakes on a Plane. Expect a flood of commercialised low quality nonsense intended to appeal to the most broad and vacuous demographics possible.

As someone who both appreciates Citizen Kane and Snakes on a Plane, I find your analogy distasteful. But I think you're right - profit motive, in general, will lead a company to try and capture as much of the market as possible by appealing to as broad of an audience as possible. However, this isn't always the case - we can see examples of companies lowering the bar, such as Bethesda, but there are also examples of companies that do everything their own way, such as Nintendo.

 

- An industry as small and unregulated as paid modding is stupidly easy to monopolise if someone just generates enough revenue. Before you know it, three or four "modding studios" will control the majority of content and traffic. Warner Brothers, Nestlé, Ubisoft, and so on. Every industry has them, and with paid modding it will be even easier to establish a corporate aristocracy.

This already exists in the modding community, but instead of companies we have personalities. I won't name names. However, the existence of those personalities doesn't make it harder for new mod authors to get into the scene. If anything, it makes it easier because mod users will desire variety and each new company / personality brings with it a different approach to things.

 

- How long before people begin to patent modding techniques and methods to assure nobody makes free equivalents of them? Asset protection is a massive part of financialism. Expect more and more legal obstacles as time passes.

There are numerous methods to accomplish one thing in modding. First, you can't patent abstract ideas. Secondly, patents only really apply to the scripting / software side of modding, not to modding in general. Might it come up in the future of paid modding? Possibly. Am I worried about it? Not at all. And all my mods are heavily based on scripts.

 

- Unless you're a lawyer, then chances are that your Terms of Service is full of exploits and ambiguous language that predatory modding companies can use to appropriate and even copyright your assets. Moderators on the Nexus operate on common sense to protect assets; Lawyers don't.

This seems really, really far-fetched. First, the moment you create a mod - or any other asset - you have copyright over it. You don't need to register with any government or organization to have that copyright (though it is a good idea to do so). Another entity can't simply steal your copyright out from under you. And any other issues would be solved by simply hiring a lawyer to write your ToS to be in compliance with the countries that you are selling your product.

 

And most importantly of all, modding is a fun hobby. It's something people do to express themselves, and share content with other players. To hold it for ransom, or to create a toxic environment in which people fight one another over immediate gain will completely ruin that. The community who once got content for free is now expected to pay for it. The modders who once were driven by inspiration and joy of creating, are alienated only to be replaced by people who are motivated by their own selfish gain. I develop games commercially as well, and to me, modding is about getting away from that horrible climate and just focus on what truly matters. Namely, creation for creation's sake. To actually have fun, and do something with some kind of meaning. I don't see why anyone would possibly take away the many virtues of modding in an effort to turn it into yet another business dominion. You can find that literally everywhere else. This is an oasis for all intents and purposes, and if people can't see the benefits that come with sharing a fun experience with others for it's own sake, then, I feel sorry for them. I'm extremely grateful to the people who use my mods, I could never think of demanding anything from them.

Oh look, a big appeal to emotion, not to mention a No True Scotsman and an ad hominem or two.

 

And you develop games commercially? Cool. Link us to one so I can go copyright / steal it? /s

Edited September 7, 2016 by Reneer

[Arthmoor]

2. I was there, and I watched the disaster unfold first hand.

No, you weren't there. Watching something from the outside does not give you any knowledge of how the back end details were handled.

 

3. Making condescending remarks like "You know nothing." says more about you than it does about anyone else.

 

Now, since paid modding abjectly failed before we could see the long term effects of industrialising mods, I'll just list what would have happened:

<snipped a pile of wild speculation that has no basis in fact>

At least all I did was make a snide remark. You on the other hand simply doubled down on what my snide remark had to say. Your gross speculation and outright incorrect facts prove you know nothing. And you're making games for a living? I hope you aren't the one in charge of the tax and legal details then.

 

And most importantly of all, modding is a fun hobby.

Yes, yes it is. That said, just because it's a fun hobby doesn't mean one is not also allowed to have the chance to make some money while doing it. The only people creating a toxic environment are those like you who insist on playing dictator over what someone is allowed to do with their work.

[TummaSuklaa]

Whats amazes me in this thread is the amount of turn around of feelings on this... most of you flipped out over beth allowing that. And now... :/ ?

[Juromaro]

All I'm going to say is if Arthmoor, Eli or many of the other popular modders put all their work up with a price tag all it's going to do is encourage me to learn more than just how to edit a file through F04edit or recoloring something. I'm not a mod maker, I don't release the recolors I make for personal use, I don't donate, I endorse everything I download even if it's terrible(mostly cause I download a lot and can't remember which was bad or not). If they want a price tag on their stuff that's all the better, I won't be able to afford them cause I provide for a family of 4 with just my paycheck but still they work for it they deserve it.

 

 

What I don't like is when a mod author hold their mod hostage unless they get paid I.E: "I won't update unless I get some donations to make the time worth it", or "I didn't win a contest so I'm going to stop all support of this mod....unless my kickstarter goes off then maybe I'll work on it". But as I said I'm just a user that doesn't contribute so it's not my place to say if they should do that or not. All it'll do for me is force me to learn how to model, script, and animate.

[Thumblesteen]

First off, due to how 2 v 1 debating rarely works out well. I will disregard Arthmoor's reply. Nothing personal, Arthmoor.

 

EDIT:

Actually, did not see this until after I made this post, and I would like to address it:

 

Yes, yes it is. That said, just because it's a fun hobby doesn't mean one is not also allowed to have the chance to make some money while doing it. The only people creating a toxic environment are those like you who insist on playing dictator over what someone is allowed to do with their work.

 

You're the one trying to introduce a policy in which people can use capital to influence the modding community. Right now everyone has an equal voice. If you're going to resort to further personal attacks, please make them accurate, Arthmoor.

 

Net neutrality is about internet providers giving equal speed / priority to all data, regardless of the source. The existence of paid modding would have no effect upon net neutrality.

 

There's more aspects to it than that. The net is never actually truly neutral, and I get that liberals make a big deal about defining it in regards to ISP policies. But net neutrality as a phrase could be used in this context as well. Commodifying traffic is just as detrimental to fairness in modding as commodifying bandwidth is. Not to mention that simply redefining a word doesn't actually address the issue I brought up.

 

 

This is flat out wrong. You can get absolutely free tutorials in numerous places on the Internet, both for general programming and videogame design. Are there companies offering videogame programming / design tutorials for a fee? Yes. But there are also good, free alternatives like GameDev, Khan Academy (which offers a programming course for free), Udemy, and Tutsplus Game Development. Just as there are free and paid tutorials for videogame programming / design, there will be free and paid tutorials for developing mods when paid mods come back.

 

But before modding is commodified, and after modding is commodified, there's going to be less education about modding publicly available. Just because some of it remains doesn't mean that it still won't cause detriment to new modders, which will ultimately reflect both the amount and quality of content.

 

 

Financial incentive exists to hinder or sabotage "rivals" in any industry. The reason you don't see it all that often is because the risk / reward is simply too great. If a mod author actively tries to hinder the work of another mod author and gets caught, they will likely see a drastic drop in sales because they have used tactics that ultimately hurt mod users.

 

 

What? It happens literally all the time. There was the GPS-SatNav conflict a few years ago which resulted in the most absurd legal battle to con a scientist out of his patent. There was the Iranian coup d'etat in which the Anglo-Iranian oil company literally had an entire democracy overthrown to keep oil from getting nationalised. As thousands died. There was the Nestlé baby formula incident in which African women were given free formula until their breasts stopped producing milk, during which they had to pay for it all of a sudden. Due to the lack of clean water and some women not affording to pay for the formula, baby mortality rates spiked. Nestlé literally killed babies for the financial incentive in it. Ford motors invested in the holocaust. The Nazi prototypical gas chambers were fashioned using their engines. The Coca Cola company used a Mexican shell corporation to hire cartel hitmen. Who then assassinated union representatives among Coca Cola's field workers.

 

The reward is usually extremely high, and none of the aforementioned have even faced jail time. In fact, happened right here in this thread. The mere mention of money have produced insults in an effort to discredit the critics.

 

 

As someone who both appreciates Citizen Kane and Snakes on a Plane, I find your analogy distasteful. But I think you're right - profit motive, in general, will lead a company to try and capture as much of the market as possible by appealing to as broad of an audience as possible. However, this isn't always the case - we can see examples of companies lowering the bar, such as Bethesda, but there are also examples of companies that do everything their own way, such as Nintendo.

 

That's still worse than the current situation, though.

 

 

This already exists in the modding community, but instead of companies we have personalities. I won't name names. However, the existence of those personalities doesn't make it harder for new mod authors to get into the scene. If anything, it makes it easier because mod users will desire variety and each new company / personality brings with it a different approach to things.

 

Actually, it has. I can think of two names right now who outright sabotaged newcoming modders. With financial resources, they'll do more than name calling to maintain that hierarchy. Even worse, that hierarchy will actually have a meaning all of a sudden. It's not just about popularity. Those people will be able to lobby policies and actually influence the community.

 

 

There are numerous methods to accomplish one thing in modding. First, you can't patent abstract ideas. Secondly, patents only really apply to the scripting / software side of modding, not to modding in general. Might it come up in the future of paid modding? Possibly. Am I worried about it? Not at all. And all my mods are heavily based on scripts.

 

So a rectangle with soft edges is not an abstract idea? It happens already, and it's getting worse every day.

 

 

This seems really, really far-fetched. First, the moment you create a mod - or any other asset - you have copyright over it. You don't need to register with any government or organization to have that copyright (though it is a good idea to do so). Another entity can't simply steal your copyright out from under you. And any other issues would be solved by simply hiring a lawyer to write your ToS to be in compliance with the countries that you are selling your product.

 

I'm fairly certain that any contract written without the review of a legal expert is far more prone to exploitation. In fact, I've seen several and even written tutorials on how to avoid it.

 

 

Oh look, a big appeal to emotion, not to mention a No True Scotsman and an ad hominem or two.

 

Where did I write anything to which a No True Scotsman applies? Not to mention that for it to be an adhom, I would have to point at some kind of quality or vice of the speaker. I simply pointed out behaviour that will be encouraged in general that wasn't aimed at anyone or anything other than the sheer hypothetical. That's far from the same. Social engineering through profit motives is a scientifically demonstrable concept. It's not an adhom.

 

As for the emotional appeal, so what? Most people aren't psychopaths, which means that emotion demonstrably plays a large role in how we make our decisions, and if I'm passionate about something, I will articulate that. I can even go further and ask you this:

 

Suppose you have one healthy man, and five sick people. We can kill the healthy man, and harvest his organs in an effort to heal the five sick people who would otherwise die. Give me one reason we're not willing to do this, other than emotions? From a strictly objective and utilitarian viewpoint, it's the "right" thing to do. Five lives, one dies. Seems only logical. If not for the fact that we'd be living in a society where everyone would be terrified of getting randomly killed and having their organs harvested, or seeing that happening to their loved ones.

 

That's entirely an emotional appeal to fear. We do all kinds of vital things because emotions matter to us as much as anything else does. That being said, I know that in most contexts they end up being too subjective. So I'll refrain from doing it again. But I stand by what I said. This is a matter between whether modding should be a commodity, or an artform. That's entirely motivated by emotions to me. Art can't be anything other than that.

 

And small note, Reneer. In spite of how we see different sides to this issue, I appreciate the positive tone of this discussion. Much respect.

Edited September 7, 2016 by Thumblesteen

[Reneer]

There's more aspects to it than that. The net is never actually truly neutral, and I get that liberals make a big deal about defining it in regards to ISP policies. But net neutrality as a phrase could be used in this context as well. Commodifying traffic is just as detrimental to fairness in modding as commodifying bandwidth is. Not to mention that simply redefining a word doesn't actually address the issue I brought up.

Commodifying mods (i.e. selling them) isn't commodifying the Internet traffic itself. It's an exchange - you want this mod, you give the mod author X amount of money. I honestly fail to see what you're getting at here.

 

But before modding is commodified, and after modding is commodified, there's going to be less education about modding publicly available. Just because some of it remains doesn't mean that it still won't cause detriment to new modders, which will ultimately reflect both the amount and quality of content.

Sorry, but as someone who has spent a great deal of money getting my education, the whole "information wants to be free" argument doesn't really fly with me. Might there be some detriment to new mod users? Possibly. But what little detriment there will be in the loss of (some) free tutorials will be made up for in the increased quality of paid tutorials. Or even paid teaching.

 

What? It happens literally all the time. There was the GPS-SatNav conflict a few years ago which resulted in the most absurd legal battle to con a scientist out of his patent. There was the Iranian coup d'etat in which the Anglo-Iranian oil company literally had an entire democracy overthrown to keep oil from getting nationalised. As thousands died. There was the Nestlé baby formula incident in which African women were given free formula until their breasts stopped producing milk, during which they had to pay for it all of a sudden. Due to the lack of clean water and some women not affording to pay for the formula, baby mortality rates spiked. Nestlé literally killed babies for the financial incentive in it. Ford motors invested in the holocaust. The Nazi prototypical gas chambers were fashioned using their engines. The Coca Cola company used a Mexican shell corporation to hire cartel hitmen. Who then assassinated union representatives among Coca Cola's field workers.

 

The reward is usually extremely high, and none of the aforementioned have even faced jail time. In fact, happened right here in this thread. The mere mention of money have produced insults in an effort to discredit the critics.

Instead of providing examples of corporations acting against corporations, you instead listed a few corporations acting (very) badly. Plus, your examples are so ludicrously out of scale with what we are talking about here that it is laughable. You're trying to compare those examples to mod authors doing what, exactly? The absolute worst thing I can imagine a mod author doing to another mod author, in terms of "mod fights", would be to vocally reproach each other. That and, maybe, a mod author placing a script in their work that intentionally disables the work of another mod author.

 

That's still worse than the current situation, though.

I don't see it that way, but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

Actually, it has. I can think of two names right now who outright sabotaged newcoming modders. With financial resources, they'll do more than name calling to maintain that hierarchy. Even worse, that hierarchy will actually have a meaning all of a sudden. It's not just about popularity. Those people will be able to lobby policies and actually influence the community.

Well, I am certainly unaware of who those two mod authors are. If you're certain of your claims, shouldn't you make those two names public so that people can judge for themselves whether your claims have merit?

 

So a rectangle with soft edges is not an abstract idea? It happens already, and it's getting worse every day.

I honestly highly doubt that software patents will have any impact on modding, paid or not. I could very well be wrong, however. Either way, it's not an useful argument to use against paid mods, because you could just as easily use that argument to tell everyone that getting into software development is a bad idea because of software patents too.

 

I'm fairly certain that any contract written without the review of a legal expert is far more prone to exploitation. In fact, I've seen several and even written tutorials on how to avoid it.

So you're a lawyer now? :tongue: Seriously though, if any mod author is going to sell their work, they should buck up and hire a lawyer to write them a ToS. Unless Bethesda supplies us with one later on.

 

Where did I write anything to which a No True Scotsman applies? Not to mention that for it to be an adhom, I would have to point at some kind of quality or vice of the speaker. I simply pointed out behaviour that will be encouraged in general that wasn't aimed at anyone or anything other than the sheer hypothetical. That's far from the same. Social engineering through profit motives is a scientifically demonstrable concept. It's not an adhom.

You want me to break it down for you? Fine.

 

And most importantly of all, modding is a fun hobby. It's something people do to express themselves, and share content with other players. To hold it for ransom, or to create a toxic environment in which people fight one another over immediate gain will completely ruin that. The community who once got content for free is now expected to pay for it. The modders who once were driven by inspiration and joy of creating, are alienated only to be replaced by people who are motivated by their own selfish gain.

Definite ad hominem with the line "modders who once were driven by inspiration and joy of creating, are alienated only to be replaced by people who are motivated by their own selfish gain". So you're saying that I am not driven by inspiration and the joy of creating, huh? That I'm motivated by my selfish gain? Sure sounds like an ad hominem to me.

 

I don't see why anyone would possibly take away the many virtues of modding in an effort to turn it into yet another business dominion. You can find that literally everywhere else. This is an oasis for all intents and purposes, and if people can't see the benefits that come with sharing a fun experience with others for it's own sake, then, I feel sorry for them. I'm extremely grateful to the people who use my mods, I could never think of demanding anything from them.

Ad hominem via pitying people who don't share your viewpoint. Any mod author who wants to get paid for their work must be horrible because we want to remove the "virtues" of modding.

 

The No True Scotsman accusation was wrong on my part - I was a bit tired and overall your argument reads like a No True Scotsman to me in general, but there are no specific instances of it.

 

We do all kinds of vital things because emotions matter to us as much as anything else does. That being said, I know that in most contexts they end up being too subjective. So I'll refrain from doing it again. But I stand by what I said. This is a matter between whether modding should be a commodity, or an artform. That's entirely motivated by emotions to me. Art can't be anything other than that.

If you want to put your own restrictions on what art (or modding, for that matter) can and cannot be, fine. But don't expect me, or anyone else, to hold your definition as truth.

 

And small note, Reneer. In spite of how we see different sides to this issue, I appreciate the positive tone of this discussion. Much respect.

Likewise.

[Thumblesteen]

Commodifying mods (i.e. selling them) isn't commodifying the Internet traffic itself. It's an exchange - you want this mod, you give the mod author X amount of money. I honestly fail to see what you're getting at here.

These are long term effects, remember? That means that the industry will grow and manifest as institutions. Which means advertising. Which means that traffic will be commodified. Right now mods get attention because they're good and people like them. They get attention because people put effort into them. Next up they will get attention because people on the top are greedy, and would rather exercise privilege than doing the hard work.

 

 

 

Sorry, but as someone who has spent a great deal of money getting my education, the whole "information wants to be free" argument doesn't really fly with me. Might there be some detriment to new mod users? Possibly. But what little detriment there will be in the loss of (some) free tutorials will be made up for in the increased quality of paid tutorials. Or even paid teaching.

Good that you could afford it. I quit school at 13 because I watched my father get killed in front of my very eyes, and my family fell into poverty. I would not be a modder today if that was the case, and neither would several others. I will gladly defend and represent those people. Even if I am no longer at risk of being alienated. Gentrifying modding will only reduce content and it's quality.

 

 

 

Instead of providing examples of corporations acting against corporations, you instead listed a few corporations acting (very) badly. Plus, your examples are so ludicrously out of scale with what we are talking about here that it is laughable. You're trying to compare those examples to mod authors doing what, exactly? The absolute worst thing I can imagine a mod author doing to another mod author, in terms of "mod fights", would be to vocally reproach each other. That and, maybe, a mod author placing a script in their work that intentionally disables the work of another mod author.

A moment ago you were outright denying this reality, I simply provided examples. I have several more examples, and not to mention that these all involve large and extremely successful industrial institutions. I can tell you all about what JP Morgan, Rockefeller, Apple and even Microsoft have done to reach the top. This isn't a few rare cases, this is a widespread pattern.

 

What mod authors may or may not do remains to be seen. But greed is a toxic thing, and I for one am not interested in spending my time having to deal with character assassinations, bullying, threats and other coercion. I want to mod.

 

 

 

I don't see it that way, but I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree here.

 

 

As someone who both appreciates Citizen Kane and Snakes on a Plane, I find your analogy distasteful. But I think you're right - profit motive, in general, will lead a company to try and capture as much of the market as possible by appealing to as broad of an audience as possible. However, this isn't always the case - we can see examples of companies lowering the bar, such as Bethesda, but there are also examples of companies that do everything their own way, such as Nintendo.

 

 

 

Well, I am certainly unaware of who those two mod authors are. If you're certain of your claims, shouldn't you make those two names public so that people can judge for themselves whether your claims have merit?

We both know that's not how this place works. In fact, you said so yourself.

 

 

This already exists in the modding community, but instead of companies we have personalities. I won't name names.

I am simply saying that appointing these people to receive large scale influence through the forces of financialism is not only incredibly undemocratic, it is also self-destructive. A figure of authority, in whatever form that is not elected and who have no responsibility to work in the best interests of it's community, is a figure who will ultimately be a lessening influence. Both directly, and in principle.

 

 

 

Definite ad hominem with the line "modders who once were driven by inspiration and joy of creating, are alienated only to be replaced by people who are motivated by their own selfish gain". So you're saying that I am not driven by inspiration and the joy of creating, huh? That I'm motivated by my selfish gain? Sure sounds like an ad hominem to me.

Have you ever published anything without demanding things from others? Because if so, then no. Clearly not. I'm sorry you took that personally. I was talking about what the community would be in the future, and what members it would encourage to join.

 

 

 

Ad hominem via pitying people who don't share your viewpoint. Any mod author who wants to get paid for their work must be horrible because we want to remove the "virtues" of modding.

It's only an ad hominem if I specifically pity you in an effort to discredit you. Ad hominem isn't just a synonym for an insult, it's an appeal to (ad) man (hominem). I simply said it because that's what I think, and I do have a right to have and express opinions.

 

 

The No True Scotsman accusation was wrong on my part - I was a bit tired and overall your argument reads like a No True Scotsman to me in general, but there are no specific instances of it.

No problem. I understand.

 

 

 

If you want to put your own restrictions on what art (or modding, for that matter) can and cannot be, fine. But don't expect me, or anyone else, to hold your definition as truth.

I am well aware that this is my personal philosophy. I was simply explaining my motivations.

 

 

 

Likewise.

Glad we're on the same page.

 

EDIT:

Sh*t, I missed a bunch of things.

 

 

 

I honestly highly doubt that software patents will have any impact on modding, paid or not. I could very well be wrong, however. Either way, it's not an useful argument to use against paid mods, because you could just as easily use that argument to tell everyone that getting into software development is a bad idea because of software patents too.

I would certainly say it's a terrible idea to get into software development if people aren't addressing these concerns. They're not going away.

 

 

 

So you're a lawyer now? :tongue: Seriously though, if any mod author is going to sell their work, they should buck up and hire a lawyer to write them a ToS. Unless Bethesda supplies us with one later on.

I watch some of MIT lectures on Youtube about sociolinguistics. It's somewhat relevant. I can write tutorials on how to avoid it, by pointing out obvious mistakes like semantic ambiguity. Which is really all that's needed in the current state of things. Since the Nexus is regulated by policy. As opposed to law. Policy is all about judgement calls and common sense. Law is about interpreting political scripture, and exacting power accordingly regardless of what common sense might dictate. Very different climate. Just look at the gun debate in the United States, it can more or less entirely be traced back to a comma in the constitution.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Thumblesteen

[Arthmoor]

EDIT:

Actually, did not see this until after I made this post, and I would like to address it:

 

Yes, yes it is. That said, just because it's a fun hobby doesn't mean one is not also allowed to have the chance to make some money while doing it. The only people creating a toxic environment are those like you who insist on playing dictator over what someone is allowed to do with their work.

You're the one trying to introduce a policy in which people can use capital to influence the modding community. Right now everyone has an equal voice. If you're going to resort to further personal attacks, please make them accurate, Arthmoor.

 

There was no personal attack in that. You are very obviously advocating a position in which you wish to strip the right of choice from some people in order to satisfy your own idealism. Sorry, but that's just not going to fly for me.

 

You don't get to decide who can make a living and who can't, any more than I get to decide that. The systems we all have in place already give us both the opportunity to try, and that's all I've ever been advocating.

 

The idea that paid mods should not be allowed is based on nothing but a thoroughly toxic attitude of entitlement and nothing more.