Boycott Beth.net

[Mitigate]

I guess there's nothing left to be said then. I'll keep supporting mod authors on the Nexus, even Arthmoor, who's work on the Unofficial Patches I cannot deny is still absolutely essential. Though that comes from my love of games like Skyrim and not because I respect the guy anymore.

I just hope I don't one day have the opportunity to say 'I told you so'.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Mitigate

[smooster]

If it gets to the point where you get to say 'I told you so' I definitely wont be here to hear it

[Arthmoor]

You can feel free to scroll back and check but I said anyone who went exclusively beth.net when paid mods return would be a sellout. If you misunderstood, that's your issue. Your 'return fire' was actually the first strike. I haven't even picked up my rifle...

Your gun is still smoking though, everyone can see that. As you've already had pointed out, trying to walk your statements back by shielding them behind future tense phrasing does not mitigate (lol, the irony) the fact that you fired the insults first, kept firing, and are now upset you've been called on it and had your fire returned.

 

You are agreeing with lelcat? If I was so jealous, wouldn't I just make my own mods and welcome paid modding? Your reasoning doesn't add up Arthmoor. I assumed you would be smarter than that.

There you go AGAIN with the insults.

 

As far as making mods, it's my assumption you don't know how or you wouldn't be advocating the position you are because you'd understand what's involved.

 

I assume though that you do not intend to sell your patches? Well, you aren't completely lost then. Do you intend to remain on the Nexus though?

And still you ask the basic question you'd already know the answer to if you even knew who you were talking to.

 

IMO, nothing productive will ever come of trying to discuss this with you so feel free to have the last word or whatever. I'm done talking past you while you've got your fingers in your ears.

[Mitigate]

 

You can feel free to scroll back and check but I said anyone who went exclusively beth.net when paid mods return would be a sellout. If you misunderstood, that's your issue. Your 'return fire' was actually the first strike. I haven't even picked up my rifle...

Your gun is still smoking though, everyone can see that. As you've already had pointed out, trying to walk your statements back by shielding them behind future tense phrasing does not mitigate (lol, the irony) the fact that you fired the insults first, kept firing, and are now upset you've been called on it and had your fire returned.

 

You are agreeing with lelcat? If I was so jealous, wouldn't I just make my own mods and welcome paid modding? Your reasoning doesn't add up Arthmoor. I assumed you would be smarter than that.

There you go AGAIN with the insults.

 

As far as making mods, it's my assumption you don't know how or you wouldn't be advocating the position you are because you'd understand what's involved.

 

I assume though that you do not intend to sell your patches? Well, you aren't completely lost then. Do you intend to remain on the Nexus though?

And still you ask the basic question you'd already know the answer to if you even knew who you were talking to.

 

IMO, nothing productive will ever come of trying to discuss this with you so feel free to have the last word or whatever. I'm done talking past you while you've got your fingers in your ears.

 

Keep saying I started the insults if it makes you feel better. I'm not upset. I merely pointed out that, by your reasoning, you and Lelcat were the first to resort to petty insults. Anyone can flick back and see that for themselves though. You've just latched onto this idea and tried to use it to belittle me when it's actually completely irrelevant to the discussion. A discussion about something in which the negative impacts you've refused to acknowledge because you're blinded by the prospect of getting paid... Maybe you're still star struck from Bethesda possibly contacting you last time? I assume they did. Stating that someone would be a sellout if they fit the description in some future time isn't an insult. it's pointing out a fact. If you dislike that fact. Don't sellout.

 

I've only made minor mods for private use. Nothing no one else couldn't do. No, I wouldn't know exactly what goes into making a massive mod like the kind you're familiar with. I never claimed to though. But that's just something you'd bring up to try and belittle me further so whatever.

 

All I know about you is that you consider yourself a bigshot in the community, you helped fix Skyrim where Bethesda couldn't be bothered and you're keen to do whatever it takes to get some sweet cash by selling out on beth.net when they re-introduce paid mods, at the expense of the Nexus community and the integrity of the modding community in general. You also must be young or you would have conducted yourself better during our discussion here instead of irrationally assuming I am merely jealous of your potential to earn money from modding. Other than this, I have never spoken to you or been involved with you at all except by appreciating and donating to your Unofficial Patches. Which I am not even sure you made entirely by yourself. I know you've been given a lot of fixes by others and included them in yours. Like I said, I never claimed that I was anything other than small potatoes.

 

What's your point though? I assume you have already decided you'll be keeping certain mods on the Nexus or at least free of charge. Something like that which you feel I am some kind of fool for not knowing. Your arrogance is strong, I should apparently know damn well exactly who you are as if you are some kind of king and not just a part of the community like everyone else... The reality is that if you didn't make unofficial patches, someone else would have.

 

I have also previously decided there's nothing more to be said here. I've made my case and I feel I have argued for it better than you've argued against it. It's out of my hands. In the end though, I'll be able to say I had the community in mind instead of money. But by then you'll be making a mint on bethesda.net and wont care. You also seem to oppose Valve yet you're happy to use their Greenlight program... You're shameless.

 

I get it though. If every downloader on the Nexus donated a Dollar to you and other authors, you'd be Millionaires. It's a shame I seem to be one of the few who uses the Nexus properly. I'm not arguing against you getting something back. Never was.

Bethesda caught on though and they want those Millions instead, by using you and the Nexus. I only tried to get you to see that. I do know that the mod author called Chesko was royally f***ed over last time...

 

Because I recognize that capitalism cannot be redeemed and greed corrupts everything in this World, I know bethesda.net doesn't exist with the gamers' best interests at heart.

 

Ultimately you just have to think back to their first attempt. All it was about was getting some easy cash from the modding scene. Which they realized was ripe for pillaging. Nothing about it was to make the community better. All it did was cause trouble. And now with this second attempt, they are once again taking no responsibility for the consequences and issues cropping up, they just want to capitalize. And they corrupt or trick mod authors into abandoning what they originally accepted modding was all about.

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2016 by Mitigate

[cartman1975]

I tested beth.net with two mods for X-box but i will stop the support for several reasons:

 

- It is time consuming to handle up to 4 versions of the mod (Nexus, PC, X-Box, PS4)

- The UI on beth.net is horrible. I don't have the tools i need to give proper support (Bug tracker, moderation of discussions)

- Mods and consoles are maybe not really made for each other. When sitting relaxed on the sofa in the living room, someone might not want to read the instructions, backup savegames, give proper feedback on bugs,... The result is frustrating for the user and the modder. The reduced performance of the consoles might also be a problem

- I can't test on the consoles as i don't have one and even if i had them, i won't buy fallout on console just to test my mods

 

Last but not least: A vital modding community needs new modders.

When using the nexus for mods, one might get curious how mods work and learns step by step how to make own mods:

"Interesting, just a zip-file. What is hidden in there? Just some textures but such a great result? I think i can do that myself, lets try."

This is how i started (basic) modding a few weeks ago and i still have a long way to go. :smile:

I doubt that i would have started modding when i just consumed the mods ingame via beth.net

Edited July 18, 2016 by cartman1975

[lelcat]

1. Mitigate, you got owned. You were trying to be sneaky and tried to place subtle insults to sting people and make them angry. However you are as subtle as a bull in a china shop with your insults. And you got called out for it. If you say someone is a sell-out for not doing what you want, then you called that person a sell-out.

2. You are making it look like you want to free political prisoners but you are only arguing because you want keep getting mods for free and you want to prevent people from making money because you do not get any.

3. This has nothing to do with evil corporations. Bethesda made the tools and the game, let's see how far you get making a mod without access to these tools and without direct access to the market.

[Mitigate]

1. Mitigate, you got owned. You were trying to be sneaky and tried to place subtle insults to sting people and make them angry. However you are as subtle as a bull in a china shop with your insults. And you got called out for it. If you say someone is a sell-out for not doing what you want, then you called that person a sell-out.

2. You are making it look like you want to free political prisoners but you are only arguing because you want keep getting mods for free and you want to prevent people from making money because you do not get any.

3. This has nothing to do with evil corporations. Bethesda made the tools and the game, let's see how far you get making a mod without access to these tools and without direct access to the market.

Look Lelcat, you're definitely not helping anything with what you're doing and you're starting to annoy me with your 'attacks'. You're a shadow hiding behind the arguments of others because you lack the intellectual capacity to form your own. You get on here pretending to be a proud mod author talking about the 'free market' and your plight as a poor, taken-for-granted artist. But you've only published one mod as far as I have seen. One, basic mod doing something that's probably been done to death by others. You seem to have these delusions of grandeur that you'll become a rich, professional modder on bethesda.net. You wont. you'll get swallowed up in the masses and forgotten about. Make something great though and I'll donate to you too. If you stop being a dick.

 

You also keep jumping in with sly little 'yeah, you got served' garbage just to make yourself feel better like some punk who can't actually hold his own. No one got served. Not Arthmoor nor myself. It was a debate. A passionate debate. Arthmoor had a little trouble separating me from my position but it was still mostly civil as far as internet forums get. No one mentioned Nazis at least anyway...

 

My position, if you actually paid attention, has nothing to do with being stingy with my money. I've donated several times to at least 7 authors who I deem worth it and I aim to continue doing so. DLC sized amounts too. Not just a Dollar here and there.

 

It's all about keeping it how it has been run since Morrowind. Independent. A community built on passion rather than the pursuit of fame and fortune. Every mod author signed up knowing it was about the love of the game and they didn't expect to get paid for it. Then Bethesda comes along and sows corruption as well as damages what has so far been a perfectly stable and functional community by luring authors away first to the Workshop and now to Bethesda.net. They used their influence to get these people star struck and stroked their ego by contacting them directly and then many got screwed over when it all went to Hell. They had no idea how to run the system they tried to implement, mod theft was boosted exponentially and the same crap is happening again. When they introduce paid mods again (which like I have said numerous times is their main goal, if it wasn't they wouldn't have jumped right in with it from the start) they will once again lure authors away to become exclusively beth.net and leave the massive and awesome TES and FO community on the Nexus out in the cold. The Nexus is a place to pillage. Skyrim Special Edition has been made so that they can capitalise on the already huge mod library available for it. Is there a chance I am wrong? Sure! But all the signs point to them not giving a true f*** about any of us. Bethesda.net is offering nothing we all haven't already had for years! And better! If they did it mainly for consoles then they wouldn't infect their new games on PC with garbage like disabling achievements when mods are active or forcing you to sign into bethesda.net to do what you always could before without it. So if you use an unofficial patch just to get the f***ing game working on FO or TES, you wont be able to get the full experience because it's a 'mod'.

 

I am NOT against mod authors getting something for their effort. I AM against splitting the community here and causing all the bulls*** I have mentioned extensively in this thread. For something that is redundant from the get go. If mod authors could charge for their work here on the Nexus, I would have NOTHING to say. But Bethesda would never let that happen. Because it's not about the author getting paid, it's all about Bethesda getting paid.

Anyone who harms the community in any way just to get paid is a sellout, or at least made a big mistake. There's no other word for it. If that word offends you that is your problem. I am not the first person to say it either. Far bigger fish than I will ever be have said it too.

 

I'm just repeating myself. Go back and read the thread.

 

I love the Nexus. I love TES and FO. Putting them together is the best thing that has happened in my gaming life. If I didn't and if it wasn't, I wouldn't be putting myself out here like I am to cop abuse and be 'that guy'.

Who heard about me before this? No one. I'm nobody. I keep to myself. I like it that way too. But I feel so strongly about this that I had to open my mouth.

Edited July 18, 2016 by Mitigate

[TimeLadyKatie]

Hooboy, lot to unpack here lately and that's ignoring the 'Who shot first' in the insults war. (Answer: Han shot first. Also Mitigate.)

 

But let's dive in on actual points, shall we?

 

 

You are being farmed... Each one of you is just a little Dollar sign. They don't care about our community. They don't care if it gets torn apart. They don't care about the Nexus. They're going to get even richer on your efforts and that is all that matters. You will fix their games for them and keep the money coming in while they just sit back and laugh!

We KNOW that is what they want or they wouldn't have jumped right in with paid mods last time!

 

Is it great that consoles have access to mods? Sure.

Is it great that they are becoming the main focus, the majority of users, at least as far as this discussion and beth.net is showing? No. Their inferior tech will cause mod authors to dumb down their work so they can handle it!

 

Two points here that I want to engage with: first everything you claim will happen here is speculative. I've personally said a few times that I don't think paid modding is a salient fact in this conversation because, to my knowledge, the only current stated goal of Bethesda mod hosting is to bring mods to consoles.

 

And your PC elitism is absurd. Why? Because a fair number of PC gamers are on systems valued at under 1200$ USD, which makes them probably on par or worse than current-gen consoles in terms of graphics ability and processing power. My own rig came with a 1GB VRAM graphics card, which is closer to running on a nacho chip than a modern graphics card. For a long time I was running Skyrim mods on that, which is objectively lower quality than playing it on a console. Therefore the idea that mods are somehow more constrained by console tech than by the PC gaming community is absurd. The only reason to hate consoles is to feel superior.

 

 

We, the mod-cats work our asses off modding so being called a sell-out is irritating.

You? You've published one, insignificant mod as far as I can see. I only refer to invaluable mod authors. Arthmoor, as much as he may dislike me right now, is invaluable to the Nexus community.

 

 

I absolutely stand by the insult I flung at you in my first post. You are a jerk.

 

I've only been a minor writer or lore consultant on mods that are currently published, that doesn't invalidate my right to have an opinion in a conversation about the future of modding.

 

Jerk.

 

 

 

There's nothing elitist about it.

 

 

console peasants be damned.

 

You may wish to consider how the sentiments you express come across to the reader, if you're concerned about being misjudged.

 

I laughed. I laughed hard. For like five minutes.

You can barely mention consoles without telling console gamers off. But man, you're so not an elitist! Maybe you're just... wait, what was it?

 

 

 

... you're kinda a jerk, aren't you?

 

 

Right. You're a jerk. That's what it was.

 

Because modders, no matter what they say in public, are drooling at the prospect of (what they think) is 'easy money' when Bethesda re-introduces payment for mods.

 

See the CS:GO-lotto scandal (Valve forcing under-aged illegal gambling into the gaming community by hiring economic and DRM experts to monetise virtual items, all while APPEARING to have clean hands)? Zenimax seeks to exploit the same types of foolish people by DRM prorecting mods and monetising them, using the same advice from economic experts.

 

Get rich quick schemes never go away, cos there's always enough fools thinking they will be the ones getting rich, not the people running the con.

 

People modded for FUN. If peeps wanted paying, there are millions of legit careers in every aspect of the computer creative fields. But Beth knows it only has to wave a TINY (to Zenimax) amount of money in front of the noses of modders, and many of them insanely fantasise that modding could become a 'career'. Same reason idiots play the lottery.

 

Stage one, in the minds of such people, is the need to CREEP to Bethesda as hard as they can in the hope that their grovelling will 'pursuade' Beth to do what Beth has intended all along- to exploit modding with money.

 

How many people have the brains NOT to play the lottery because they correctly understand the precepts of rational gambling? Not many.

 

Nexus is an astonishing service, and deserves the greatest loyalty. Sadly Nexus is about to discover just how shallow and foolish most people are.

 

I wondered how long it would take for this particular brand of inzanity to show up and stoke the flames of rampant paranoia and tinfoil hat drivel. There is no evidence to support the idea that Zenimax is trying to take over the world or whatwever the hell you think is going on. We've gone round and round in other threads of me debunking your conspiracy theories and still, here we are. It's kind of comforting that in a world of evolving understanding I can rely on you to always say the same, bonkers, things.

 

 

 

 

 

Based on any other job I have ever done, 30% is incredibly generous.

 

10% is reasonable.

 

You don't believe the mod author deserves the majority? I do.

 

 

What is deserved, what is earned and what is given are all wildly different numbers and based on the real world, Bacon is right. I'm a journalist. Since my publication is mostly online, there's very little overhead and a decent stream of revenue through ads and from our parent company. Therefore, the actual value of my contribution to the final product on every story is probably around... 80% or more? I do have an assignments desk and an editor that share some of the credit for the final work as well but obviously given that the research, interviews and writing are all done at my desk the vast share of the work is done here. But what do I actually make off the product? Probably less than 5%. My editor and assignments desk probably pull down 2%. These are estimates, but they're damn close to accurate. Where does the rest of that money go? To the company. Which gives it's owners huge chunks and uses the money I generate to fund less profitable projects.

 

Anyone who thinks wealth redistribution doesn't exist in capitalism is wrong. But that's not the point. The point is, I would love to make 30% on my articles. I absolutely never, ever, ever will. That's not how the real world functions. Why on Earth would modding be any different than a day job in that respect?

 

 

 

 

Your reasoning is sound. I'm just trying to be another voice in the sea. Apparently though, my right to a position ends where it opposes the majority's...

 

In what way has your right to a position been challenged?

 

You have stated your position, others have stated theirs. You, they and I have all continued to express our opinions despite them being different to one another. Other people disagreeing with you is no worse than you disagreeing with them.

 

Well so far I've been labelled a troll, a jackass, jet addicted, jealous and just plain ignorant. Disagreement is one thing. I feel I have to defend my position from obvious slander. This is typical internet tactics. The one who is disagreed with by the majority gets bullied into silence or giving up, leaving the majority to reason that they have the superior position and have 'won' the debate.

 

 

It is an unfortunate and common misconception that freedom of speech means freedom from consequence. You have every right to say the things you've said, and I will fight for and champion that right if it is ever legitimately and unjustly infringed upon. But I have the right to call you a jerk and say you're wrong. That's my freedom of speech at work. Everyone should absolutely have the right to their opinion and free expression thereof. But no one should have the power to express their opinion without the open criticism of others. In the end, it isn't a matter of the majority silencing you, it's a matter of you utterly failing to convince the majority that you are not both wrong and, at least in my opinion, a jerk.

 

And you are. A big ol' PC Elitist jerk.

 

But a jerk with basic rights that are being duly respected and upheld in accordance with what the Right Thing to Do is.

[MasterMagnus]

It seems like some people here on Nexus are basing everything they say solely on their experience with paid mods through steam-valve thingy.

 

There are other games, other companies, other communities where people get paid real world dollars for game assets they create.

 

Some of you Beth hating shut-ins need to look around at the world.

 

Some of us are getting 40% cuts of the game assets we create in MMO games that are played by millions.

 

These companies have supplied the market, they take care of the sales, there is a built in consumer base and they lend credibility to your work by hosting it.

 

I'd love to get a 50% cut, but given what the company provides (something no individual or small team could do), 40% is very generous.

 

The 25% cut I heard they used with Steam-Valve is really the bare minimum I'd like to see.

 

As it's obvious the majority of users here on Nexus have never been paid for modding. And they think anyone who gets paid for their art is greedy.

 

It's very hard to explain the simple truth to you all: You really never see anyone do it just for the money. I'm making thousands, better artists are making well more than me, but even the pro artists that come there are doing it for fun.

 

Like most creative endeavors trying to make "the next big thing" will get you nowhere. Trying to make "that one item/mod that everyone MUST have" never really works. Huge companies with billions of dollars try to figure out what consumers want and become the first to make it. They spend tons of money on market research and fail fail fail all over the place.

 

Like musicians the best art comes from your heart and your head, not an executives spreadsheet of demographics.

 

The vast majority of artists make what moves them without any thought of "how much money will I make?", the artists who create with money in mind are always inferior.

 

There really is nothing to fear from making money for art. Some of you might want to look a little farther than the Nexus echo chamber before you speak to issues of the gaming world at large and concepts like 'paid modding'.

 

Nexus and Bethesda are not the entirety of the modding scene. And getting paid for creating mods/game assets is not evil.

 

Monetizing your games IS going to continue, not just Bethesda will be doing it. Do you all here on the Nexus honestly want to continue to shout down Bethesda (who made the game one would assume your are actually playing) and promote mod authors to boycott them?

 

You can't see that great modders are dropping like flies, rather than saying "This is going to be great! I can keep doing what I love, and I get a check on top of it!"?

 

In the community I'm from we see artists saying "With the money I'm going to buy a new Cintiq pad and step up my art game!"

 

Never seen anyone do it for the money, never seen anyone hurt over it. Consumer has a new thing they paid $4 for and it's fun, modder gets money on top of joy from modding, company gets money from a vector that didn't even exist for them before. WIN WIN WIN

 

Except for the jealous kids crying their eyes out. If you spent the amount of time learning modding instead of b*t*h*ng you could do it too!

 

Over the past weeks observing this a term comes to mind:

LUDDITES look it up...

Edited July 18, 2016 by MasterMagnus

[Alexotero1219]

It seems like some people here on Nexus are basing everything they say solely on their experience with paid mods through steam-valve thingy.

 

There are other games, other companies, other communities where people get paid real world dollars for game assets they create.

 

Some of you Beth hating shut-ins need to look around at the world.

 

Some of us are getting 40% cuts of the game assets we create in MMO games that are played by millions.

 

These companies have supplied the market, they take care of the sales, there is a built in consumer base and they lend credibility to your work by hosting it.

 

I'd love to get a 50% cut, but given what the company provides (something no individual or small team could do), 40% is very generous.

 

The 25% cut I heard they used with Steam-Valve is really the bare minimum I'd like to see.

 

As it's obvious the majority of users here on Nexus have never been paid for modding. And they think anyone who gets paid for their art is greedy.

 

It's very hard to explain the simple truth to you all: You really never see anyone do it just for the money. I'm making thousands, better artists are making well more than me, but even the pro artists that come there are doing it for fun.

 

Like most creative endeavors trying to make "the next big thing" will get you nowhere. Trying to make "that one item/mod that everyone MUST have" never really works. Huge companies with billions of dollars try to figure out what consumers want and become the first to make it. They spend tons of money on market research and fail fail fail all over the place.

 

Like musicians the best art comes from your heart and your head, not an executives spreadsheet of demographics.

 

The vast majority of artists make what moves them without any thought of "how much money will I make?", the artists who create with money in mind are always inferior.

 

There really is nothing to fear from making money for art. Some of you might want to look a little farther than the Nexus echo chamber before you speak to issues of the gaming world at large and concepts like 'paid modding'.

 

Nexus and Bethesda are not the entirety of the modding scene. And getting paid for creating mods/game assets is not evil.

 

Monetizing your games IS going to continue, not just Bethesda will be doing it. Do you all here on the Nexus honestly want to continue to shout down Bethesda (who made the game one would assume your are actually playing) and promote mod authors to boycott them?

 

You can't see that great modders are dropping like flies, rather than saying "This is going to be great! I can keep doing what I love, and I get a check on top of it!"?

 

In the community I'm from we see artists saying "With the money I'm going to buy a new Cintiq pad and step up my art game!"

 

Never seen anyone do it for the money, never seen anyone hurt over it. Consumer has a new thing they paid $4 for and it's fun, modder gets money on top of joy from modding, company gets money from a vector that didn't even exist for them before. WIN WIN WIN

 

Except for the jealous kids crying their eyes out. If you spent the amount of time learning modding instead of b*t*h*ng you could do it too!

 

Over the past weeks observing this a term comes to mind:

LUDDITES look it up...

2 things. You forgot that the consumer gets something new that he paid $4 for, that he wouldn't have had to pay money for in the past. So its not a WIN WIN WIN its a loose win win. Company and modder win whereas the consumer looses. I don't think I need to prove this when you look at the massive backlash from the original paid modding attempt. Its obvious.

 

Lastly, at least from what ive seen, most modders are leaving right now because of bethesda.net and its poor design the harassment from the userbase there and rampant mod theft. Not because theres no paid modding. At least thats what I see.