Alexotero1219 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 1. You have no idea if thats accurate and as someone else stated before its naive. Sure you might think monetizing something will increase the quality but that simply isnt true. The way markets like this tend to work is they produce what is in demand not what is innovative or better. To provide a more grounded example do you remember skyrim nexus when people found out they could make cbbe slutware and get 100 thousand endorsements? I do. Now imagine if modders figured out they could make skimpy clothes and make 100 thousand dollars? Every single, and I do mean every single, innovative modder would stop all their projects to learn how to make outfits to make skimpy armors and get in on that money. That is 100% how market economies work lol its not even arguable. So no just because something has a price tag now doesn't mean it will suddenly become more innovative and higher quality. Maybe armors and such might reach higher level of quality but the less profitable, and often times most interesting an innovated mods such as quests will decrease in quality and quantity. I'm finding it a little peculiar being told what every mod authors will and won't do. Excuse me? I can tell you exactly what one mod author will do and no more than that, please don't presume to speak for me. The dismal science is just a model and doesn't accurately describe human behaviour, it certainly doesn't give you any right to comment upon mine. I have no intention to charge for substandard work, I have pride in what I create. If I was going to focus on what made money, rather than my passions, why on earth would I be doing modding of all things? Why would I study the arts? I'm not going to stop giving away fun content that I make in my free time for free. I am going to put more time, effort and resources into content that I'm selling because I refuse to charge money for something that isn't worth what I'm charging.Fair and perhaps I spoke with too much certainty. When I say what mod authors will or wont do Im not presuming to speak for anyone. Im simply trying to apply the economic concepts I have learned that I have decent reason to believe will play out in this scenario. For example when I say mod authors will focus their efforts on the profitable types of files I mean it no differently then when an economist says firms will focus their efforts on cost reduction or labor saving. Im not presuming to speak for mod authors any more than the economist is presuming to speak for all business owners. Its hard to talk about market behavior without generalizing and its just alot easier to say "mod authors will" instead of "my experiences and general knowledge seem to indicate that the lions share of authors ect. ect." hope you understand that im not presuming to know you better than you im just trying to explain what the expected behavior of mod authors in this scenario would be. Every single person you're talking about right now is currently making the choice to give away their labour for free. While I can't speak for them, I think your assumption that they're all focused on the money is ignoring the one thing that you know for certain about their choices so far. You make a fair point but its also part of the point im trying to get at. My point, by and large, is that modding is a rather unique market relatively speaking. It is incredibly rare (if there even is a prior example) to have a previously free product now be charged for, heck its incredibly rare to see people regularly giving away their work for free. Especially one that has been free for as long as mods have. This leads me to believe that you can't look at this with a simple mindset. Its more complex than that. You cant say "paid mods will work because free market magic" and you can't say "paid mods wont work because modding is about love" or some other nonsense. This market is far too unique for that and its going to be the folly of any paid modding model if bethesda doesn't realize that and give it the research and preparation it deserves. Maybe mods can be monetized another way? Maybe paid mods can be packaged in a certain way that creates a unique service that isn't anything like the previously free one? I don't know but it seems like alot of people are simply rejecting the idea or claiming they want paid mods because they want to make money. It seems to me like very little thought has gone into the overall concept, at least not nearly the amount that should have, and all im trying to do is get people to put more thought into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmorKingEntertainment Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Yeah can we not turn this thread into a "free market" style debate? There is literally no real way to apply this logic, in any form, to the developing situation here. There is no supply for mods for starters, there is also is no competition. Bethesda would, presumably, try to lock down a modding market through IP laws (whether or not they would be able to is another question altogether). So yeah comparing paid mods to the "free market" is reaching to say the least. Back on topic I think the OP kind of has a point. Even supporters of beth.net in this thread have to agree the website design is an utter disgrace and bethesda has shown little to no interest in improving it. You essentially have three options that I can see, boycott or lawsuit in attempt to pressure bethesda into making some fixes or sit back and do nothing while authors get their work stolen and the modding scene gets less and less active as people leave. I couldn't said any of that better myself Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PoliteRaider Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 All good. Just be careful about lines like 'every single, and I do mean every single' if it's just a general overview. Gives the wrong idea. Also it's not rare at all to see people give their work away for free. I'm not sure where you're even getting that idea from. I mean... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volunteering In the arts world, people frequently work away for fun and to develop their skills. Often giving away their work because you really need an audience to develop your artistic abilities. After a while though, you reach the point where your skills are developed to a professional level and some of the artists move on to selling their work. The artificial barrier here in modding to making that leap means you get people who are capable of making valuable work toiling away for free, which is a slightly unstable position. It may be maintained through passion, drive, community engagement and other such factors but if their only option to move forwards is to leave and move to other things... well, that's going to happen sometimes. By relying and counting purely upon people's altruism, is it any wonder that sometimes it gets worn down and a mod author can get frustrated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reneer Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) You make a fair point but its also part of the point im trying to get at. My point, by and large, is that modding is a rather unique market relatively speaking. It is incredibly rare (if there even is a prior example) to have a previously free product now be charged for, heck its incredibly rare to see people regularly giving away their work for free. Especially one that has been free for as long as mods have. This leads me to believe that you can't look at this with a simple mindset. Its more complex than that.*Cough*OpenSourceSoftware*Cough* Edited July 19, 2016 by Reneer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alexotero1219 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 You make a fair point but its also part of the point im trying to get at. My point, by and large, is that modding is a rather unique market relatively speaking. It is incredibly rare (if there even is a prior example) to have a previously free product now be charged for, heck its incredibly rare to see people regularly giving away their work for free. Especially one that has been free for as long as mods have. This leads me to believe that you can't look at this with a simple mindset. Its more complex than that.*Cough*OpenSourceSoftware*Cough* Are you talking about someone using open source software in their creation of a unique product then selling the product or are you referring to something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reneer Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 (edited) Are you talking about someone using open source software in their creation of a unique product then selling the product or are you referring to something else?I'm referring to OSS in the sense that OSS combines both a group of people providing free products / services as well as a way for people to take "previously free" products and commercialize them. Edited July 19, 2016 by Reneer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JaYmZeE311074 Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Unions have been hamstrung in the Uk - first by Thatcher and more recently by Camerons tories - I would go into detail but your only hearing what you want to and answering the points you delusionally believe you have some sort of clue about. How many communists believe that Capitalism is a fantastic theory in practice for example? I'm not going to waste my breath on someone who's mind is closed to new concepts, opinions or ideas. Good bloody job too, anyone who remembers the endless strikes of the '70's knows it had to change. And the unions are still stuffing the Rail service on Southern, high levels of sick leave, absenteeism, until someone gets a grip and deals with the damn unions we'll continue to see this nonsense. And anti-capitalist, gimme free handouts, Momentum and others on the extreme Left that support Corbyn is exactly why Labour will never get back into power. And good damn riddance. If only Cameron had the guts to grab the unions by the balls he probably woudn't be out off office now. /rant The other irony here is that despite all the grousing PC players are doing, the download numbers betray a truth: Even PC players are using Bethesda.net more than Nexus. The UFO4P has more downloads and views than it does here, by a significant enough number to matter. This isn't a bad thing either. It means people are simply choosing what's convenient for them, and I see nothing wrong with that. Thats probably go something to do with the fact its easier to download via the game interface than it is to log in here and downlod with NMM or manually install (still running NMM 0.56 here and the one mod I have downloaded... came from Bethesda.net) :ermm: 'Cos script compiling issues. Like the latest versions of NMM MO has problems with getting scripts put in the correct folders too, there are ways around it or so I've heard but I can't be bothered faffing around with it. I'm guessing if I was you I'm going to pontificate about how the demise of the unions in the 70's was a good thing - yada yada, entitled culture, benefit claiming good for nobodies - and I'm also gonna take a guess that your not a big fan of all these migrant workers coming in and taking our jobs. I'd merely like to point out that if the unions had not been decimated in the fashion that they have, the employment laws that came to pass - everything up to and including zero hour contracts - that allow workers to come into this country and "TAKEN OUR JOBS!" "TKN OOR JBS"! etc etc - would never have happened. "You see there is only one constant. One universal. It is the only real truth: Causality. Action, reaction. Cause and effect." "I drink too much wine, I have to take a piss" ―The Merovingian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted82156User Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Also I am completely unable to see it as an insult. It's just a verb for describing a certain behaviour. If you feel insulted by said verb, or engage in the behaviour that dictates it's use, then that is your fault. Dictionary definition of sell out... a betrayal of one's principles for reasons of expedience. Selling out is a common idiomatic pejorative expression for the compromising of a person's integrity, morality, authenticity or principles in exchange for personal gain, such as money One who betrays a cause for personal advancement. The popular definition of sell out allows it to be used as an insult towards anyone in show business. Of course you know that the term sellout is used as an insult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lelcat Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Just as an aside, it always amuses me when all the men in an argument think something wasn't sexist and the women think it was. But when all is said and done, that derailed a derailment talking about paid modding. Which isn't actually happening, at least not at the moment, and has been the subject of more conversation in this thread than any actual issues with policies and developments that are really happening and people apparently, allegedly, want to address.Just because when a woman claims something is sexist, does not mean she is always right. Men would spend more money on cars than women would often find reasonable and boob mods are more popular among guys. Now if a woman would say that to me, do you really think I would scream sexist at that? Just because a man happens to bring up differences in genders in a topic does not mean it is sexist. About the free market and its laws, there is no need to get esoteric about it. Its laws do apply to Bethesda mods. A paid mod will demand a higher quality or people simply won't buy it. That is the reason a game like Fallout can command 60$ and a game like Spelunky can only command 15$ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethreon Posted July 19, 2016 Share Posted July 19, 2016 Nah, a game like F4 can claim $60 because fans will still buy their crap and they are able to get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts