Boycott Beth.net

[Reneer]

These are long term effects, remember? That means that the industry will grow and manifest as institutions. Which means advertising. Which means that traffic will be commodified. Right now mods get attention because they're good and people like them. They get attention because people put effort into them. Next up they will get attention because people on the top are greedy, and would rather exercise privilege than doing the hard work.

I didn't quite realize we were talking the long game, here. It's rather clear you have a healthy cynicism regarding companies and how they operate, which is fine. But if you simply assume that that will be the case with all companies, you're in a bit of a pickle because, like it or not, capitalism is the de facto means by which the world operates. As unfortunate as that may be, we all must operate within the system (unless you want to literally try and build your own) in order to make our way in the world. If I'm going to be putting forth the effort to create something, whether it is a mod or not, I want at least the option of charging for it in some manner.

 

Good that you could afford it. I quit school at 13 because I watched my father get killed in front of my very eyes, and my family fell into poverty. I would not be a modder today if that was the case, and neither would several others. I will gladly defend and represent those people. Even if I am no longer at risk of being alienated. Gentrifying modding will only reduce content and it's quality.

I'm sorry to hear about your difficult early life.

 

Education has been "gentrified" as you call it for a damn long time. It's not going to change anytime soon. The fact of the matter is, if you want to be good at something, you need to spend the effort and often money to learn your chosen field. That's just how it is. Even if you try and go the "self taught" method, you still need to buy books / learning materials. The only reason I'm "good" as a mod author is because I've spent the last 20 years programming and learning how to do it from both books and learning it at school.

 

A moment ago you were outright denying this reality, I simply provided examples. I have several more examples, and not to mention that these all involve large and extremely successful industrial institutions. I can tell you all about what JP Morgan, Rockefeller, Apple and even Microsoft have done to reach the top. This isn't a few rare cases, this is a widespread pattern.

No, I say you moved the goal posts, actually.

 

First, you said this:

There's also a financial incentive to hinder, sabotage and otherwise limit rival mod content. The community will have far less choices as a result.

You specifically said "hinder, sabotage and otherwise limit rival mod content", which I translate, based on your overall argument regarding companies, to companies using nefarious, illegal means to strike at another competing company. You then proceeded to give examples of companies that certainly did illegal things (though you are wrong about Ford Motor Company, I suggest you research that more) but did not directly attack other companies. In your examples the companies are acting badly, to be sure, and those companies should be held responsible for what occurred (depending on their knowledge / motives), but they are not directly attacking other companies.

 

The fact of the matter is you can easily enough find examples of X organization (whether it is a company, government, or what have you) acting badly. Likewise you can also find examples of that same class of organizations doing the right thing. Ultimately our positions on this issue are likely rooted in how we view the overall trajectory of companies / organizations and I honestly doubt our views on this are going to meet anywhere in the middle.

 

What mod authors may or may not do remains to be seen. But greed is a toxic thing, and I for one am not interested in spending my time having to deal with character assassinations, bullying, threats and other coercion. I want to mod.

Then mod. No one is stopping you or hindering you in the slightest from doing that. Even if paid mods come to pass, no one is going to be knocking on your door telling you to stop. And if by some twist of fate that situation actually comes to pass, then you'll find me defending you to the best of my ability.

 

We both know that's not how this place works. In fact, you said so yourself.

There is a major difference, in my viewpoint, from gossiping about who is the popular modding personality and making claims about nefarious actions. I don't like to gossip, but I'll be damned if some mod author is harassing people trying to get in on the modding scene. Furthermore, I don't make the rules around here - that was just my personal opinion about gossiping. If someone is actively trying to push people out of this community, for whatever reason, I want to know about it because it is wrong and I feel the community deserves to know.

 

I am simply saying that appointing these people to receive large scale influence through the forces of financialism is not only incredibly undemocratic, it is also self-destructive. A figure of authority, in whatever form that is not elected and who have no responsibility to work in the best interests of it's community, is a figure who will ultimately be a lessening influence. Both directly, and in principle.

It actually is rather democratic, in the sense that the "popular mod authors" would get elected to those positions of power. That's roughly how democracy works. The most-liked candidate wins. In this case "the people" would be voting with their wallets instead of through the ballot box.

 

Have you ever published anything without demanding things from others? Because if so, then no. Clearly not. I'm sorry you took that personally. I was talking about what the community would be in the future, and what members it would encourage to join.

Just to be clear, you're talking about what you think the community will be like in the future, just as I am talking about what I think the community would be like. Neither of us has a crystal ball here.

 

 

Ad hominem via pitying people who don't share your viewpoint. Any mod author who wants to get paid for their work must be horrible because we want to remove the "virtues" of modding.

It's only an ad hominem if I specifically pity you in an effort to discredit you. Ad hominem isn't just a synonym for an insult, it's an appeal to (ad) man (hominem). I simply said it because that's what I think, and I do have a right to have and express opinions.

You specifically said "if people can't see the benefits that come with sharing a fun experience with others for it's own sake, then, I feel sorry for them". You are literally saying that you pity the people that don't prescribe to your specific worldview or those who are too daft to understand the benefits of your enlightened position. It certainly sounds to me like you're trying to discredit people who don't believe in your position. But I may just be taking it too personally.

 

I am well aware that this is my personal philosophy. I was simply explaining my motivations.

As am I.

 

Glad we're on the same page.

Likewise.

 

EDIT:

Sh*t, I missed a bunch of things.

It happens to all of us, no need to worry about it.

 

I would certainly say it's a terrible idea to get into software development if people aren't addressing these concerns. They're not going away.

And I would agree with you. I imagine we have similar ideas on how terrible software patents are. I suppose I just don't see them as being applicable to modding, based upon my viewpoint.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Reneer

[Thumblesteen]

 

 

I didn't quite realize we were talking the long game, here. It's rather clear you have a healthy cynicism regarding companies and how they operate, which is fine. But if you simply assume that that will be the case with all companies, you're in a bit of a pickle because, like it or not, capitalism is the de facto means by which the world operates. As unfortunate as that may be, we all must operate within the system (unless you want to literally try and build your own) in order to make our way in the world. If I'm going to be putting forth the effort to create something, whether it is a mod or not, I want at least the option of charging for it in some manner.

Really? An appeal to dominion? Capitalism isn't controlling modding right now. So that's hardly relevant. I could add some other pointers, but it might end up derailing the discussion if we end up talking about capitalism as a whole.

 

 

 

I'm sorry to hear about your difficult early life.

Made me stronger.

 

 

 

Education has been "gentrified" as you call it for a damn long time. It's not going to change anytime soon. The fact of the matter is, if you want to be good at something, you need to spend the effort and often money to learn your chosen field. That's just how it is. Even if you try and go the "self taught" method, you still need to buy books / learning materials. The only reason I'm "good" as a mod author is because I've spent the last 20 years programming and learning how to do it from both books and learning it at school.

Again, it's not gentrified in modding right now. Not to mention that everything starts with the small stuff and builds upwards. You can't change the world unless you begin on a small level. So if "That's just how it is", then do your bit to reverse it when and if you can. If I just gave up and said these things I'd probably be dead now. Didn't change overnight, and it didn't begin with the big picture first.

 

 

 

You specifically said "hinder, sabotage and otherwise limit rival mod content", which I translate, based on your overall argument regarding companies, to companies using nefarious, illegal means to strike at another competing company. You then proceeded to give examples of companies that certainly did illegal things (though you are wrong about Ford Motor Company, I suggest you research that more) but did not directly attack other companies. In your examples the companies are acting badly, to be sure, and those companies should be held responsible for what occurred (depending on their knowledge / motives), but they are not directly attacking other companies.

I demonstrated that most successful companies are amoral, and how that will have an impact on how the modding community will work. Which it will. The rest is just details. Only difference between Rockefeller and Pablo Escobar is that Rockefeller could hire thugs and gun down his rivals and their wives and children without the police getting involved, because he owned them. We will get our own Rockefeller, and he or she might not have people killed, but they'll certainly ruin things for everyone else.

 

 

 

Then mod. No one is stopping you or hindering you in the slightest from doing that. Even if paid mods come to pass, no one is going to be knocking on your door telling you to stop. And if by some twist of fate that situation actually comes to pass, then you'll find me defending you to the best of my ability.

Unless you're richer than them, or have some sort of insurrectionary force, I doubt that'll do much. It's a nice sentiment, though. Really.

 

 

 

There is a major difference, in my viewpoint, from gossiping about who is the popular modding personality and making claims about nefarious actions. I don't like to gossip, but I'll be damned if some mod author is harassing people trying to get in on the modding scene. Furthermore, I don't make the rules around here - that was just my personal opinion about gossiping. If someone is actively trying to push people out of this community, for whatever reason, I want to know about it because it is wrong and I feel the community deserves to know.

I know one highly influential character in the community who slandered and lied about one of my friends. To the extent of accusing them of criminal fraud, in front of thousands of viewers on Youtube in an effort to get a nomination discredited and disqualified in the nVidia modding contest so one of their friends could win. I contacted this person, and they nonchalantly dismissed the whole thing and refused to publish a redaction. I'll gladly send you screenshots of the email exchange in a private message. Because I do have evidence.

 

 

 

It actually is rather democratic, in the sense that the "popular mod authors" would get elected to those positions of power. That's roughly how democracy works. The most-liked candidate wins. In this case "the people" would be voting with their wallets instead of through the ballot box.

Doesn't count when one person can out-vote an entire country. It's literally called plutocracy. A word made with very clear distinction in mind.

 

 

 

Just to be clear, you're talking about what you think the community will be like in the future, just as I am talking about what I think the community would be like. Neither of us has a crystal ball here.

I'm actually of Romani descent.

 

 

 

You specifically said "if people can't see the benefits that come with sharing a fun experience with others for it's own sake, then, I feel sorry for them". You are literally saying that you pity the people that don't prescribe to your specific worldview or those who are too daft to understand the benefits of your enlightened position. It certainly sounds to me like you're trying to discredit people who don't believe in your position. But I may just be taking it too personally.

I think that might be possible. It wasn't in any way aimed at you. It was strictly rhetorical.

 

 

 

And I would agree with you. I imagine we have similar ideas on how terrible software patents are. I suppose I just don't see them as being applicable to modding, based upon my viewpoint.

Fair enough.

[tawatabak]

i love how you guys destroy ech other statement after statement, but always end up with some polite sentences

 

if politicians were that way, the world would be a better place

[TypeAlias07]

As it stands, there doesn't seem to be a reason to boycott Beth.net. It's just another modding platform with the advantage of being integrated right into the game, which is a plus to some people (not me, personally). Not to mention, the only way to share my mods with friends who play on console.

 

Think of it this way, Bethesda wanted console mods, but they need a platform for them integrated directly into the game. So they make it. Why not also include a PC version so the whole game is standardized among platforms?

 

Sure, you are fine by not using Beth.net, and I would go as far as to say it's find to recommend against Beth.net, but boycott? Hardly a mature way to go about it. Let Beth.net host their mods. The users will ultimately decide on what they want.

 

The only reason you would try to start a mass boycott of Beth.net is if you were afraid of them, because you don't trust your fellow modders to not hop ship. If that's the case, that says more about you than Bethesda.

 

 

 

On a side note, Beth.net makes no money. Nexus makes money. So the whole money-grabbing thing is ridiculously ignorant at worst, and premature at best.

 

Maybe Beth.net will open mods up to professionals or contractors to be paid (doubtful in the near future). There are reasons to be against it, because of terrible business practices that occur when opening a market with no barriers and no moderation.

 

However, paid mods can work. If you need proof, simply look at the Apple App Store or the Google Play Store. Those apps are not much different than mods from a creation standpoint. But the difference is to release a paid app, you need a license. Also, bad apps are taken down quickly and the creators get punished. The Apple store even goes through approvals before apps are published, making it quite viable.

 

All of that, not to mention, markets attract professionals. If Bethesda made an actual mod marketplace that wasn't ungodly terrible like their last one, we would be seeing professionally made mods that resemble official DLC (new assets and whatnot). Basically, you'd have mods like Skyrim's Enderal, but instead of taking 4 years, they'd take 3 months.

 

 

There are pros and cons to both sides, but I'm a little tired of seeing arguments that are structured to be thrown around in a middle school. If you disagree with something, inciting others to boycott it is quite childish. Boycotting is normally something adults do when the party in question has done something malicious. Opening up a modding community is not the end of the world.

 

 

 

Also, I personally like how Beth.net Mod popularity isn't directly, positively correlated with the size of the boobs on the girl in the thumbnail of the mod.

Edited September 8, 2016 by Phorcys24

[Reneer]

Really? An appeal to dominion? Capitalism isn't controlling modding right now. So that's hardly relevant. I could add some other pointers, but it might end up derailing the discussion if we end up talking about capitalism as a whole.

Not really sure what an "appeal to dominion" is, since I've never heard of it and Google comes up with nothing. The point of the matter is, in a capitalist system, which I live under and I assume you do too, we need money in order to buy necessary goods and services. If I produce something of value, I expect others to give me something of value in return for what I am producing. If you don't want what it is I'm creating or you think the price is too high, all you have to do is not buy it. Capitalism may not be "controlling" modding de jure, but it is definitely controlling it de facto, because we all need to make money in order to survive.

 

Again, it's not gentrified in modding right now. Not to mention that everything starts with the small stuff and builds upwards. You can't change the world unless you begin on a small level. So if "That's just how it is", then do your bit to reverse it when and if you can. If I just gave up and said these things I'd probably be dead now. Didn't change overnight, and it didn't begin with the big picture first.

I'm a realist and a pragmatist. I'm not willing to, nor do I want to, change the literal foundational structure of the current dominant economic system throughout the globe, especially when there is no clear outlined method in which to do so.

 

I demonstrated that most successful companies are amoral, and how that will have an impact on how the modding community will work. Which it will. The rest is just details. Only difference between Rockefeller and Pablo Escobar is that Rockefeller could hire thugs and gun down his rivals and their wives and children without the police getting involved, because he owned them. We will get our own Rockefeller, and he or she might not have people killed, but they'll certainly ruin things for everyone else.

You completely leave out the massive reforms that Rockefeller, Jr. implemented after the events at Ludlow, not to mention the changes that the United States Congress made after as well regarding child labor laws. You're focusing on the event and not what happened after. Or, say, the literal 100+ years worth of progress we've made since then.

 

I'm actually of Romani descent.

Well, I obviously wasn't aware of that fact, but I apologize if I offended you.

 

Honestly I'm done with this debate. It's clear we aren't going to convince each other of anything.

 

--------------------

 

I know one highly influential character in the community who slandered and lied about one of my friends. To the extent of accusing them of criminal fraud, in front of thousands of viewers on Youtube in an effort to get a nomination discredited and disqualified in the nVidia modding contest so one of their friends could win. I contacted this person, and they nonchalantly dismissed the whole thing and refused to publish a redaction. I'll gladly send you screenshots of the email exchange in a private message. Because I do have evidence.

My only question is why haven't you come forward with this information if you have hard evidence?

Edited September 9, 2016 by Reneer

[tartarsauce2]

the progress "capitalism" has made is due to anti-capitalism driving it into submission at every turn
all collections of power must be beholden to other competing and antagonistic centers of power, with no ability to compromise... for smaller powers or individuals etc to benefit off their existence
there is no ulterior form of attainment of freedom, progress, or improvement on average for the standard or typical person (not average, average is a fallacy for considerations inherently)

 

 

what's going on with youtube and certain groups of people (youtube is dead party) stuff, is a good example for you guys to see in action now, but the means and manner have existed for some time, brexit, independence movements, sovereigntist and autonomist movements as also good examples of these things, the very pedestal one would place the american system on to worship in the first place owes its own existence to the division of powers as laid out by montesqieu, which was forced as a result of the french revolution against the monarchy and the backlash too

if the resistance does not make an undesirable trend impossible or the future outlooks of such a thing occurring even yet still undesirable even should it succeed... as compared to a more likely and fairer possibility (to those implementing the changes in faovur of such a trend on the behalf of the powers that stand to benefit from said trends) then that's all there is to it, until enough people grow sick of it to do something about it, but if that occurs things will be more locked in and negotiation will be less able to be engaged in
this leads to deadlocks and absolutist conflicts

I suggest not bowing and scraping to bethesda.net stuff as doing so simply makes the thing you're trying to prevent mister redfox, inevitable until eventually some other game company fulfills the niche and destroys bethesda essentially :p
unless it can sidestep the issue entirely, abandon open world RPG's, and do what blizzard did with overwatch + hearthstone, whereas before it was WoW, diablo, starcraft

but those insanely profitable microtransaction elements are already being snapped up by all sorts of people anyways more and more as time goes on, and appeal to a certain demographic that's already being more and more catered to

just some things to watch out for

Edited September 9, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[MaesterAelix]

I am sorry if what I'm saying here is repeated above, I didn't read every single post in this thread before posting:

 

When you purchase a bethesda game, you know that if you don't use mods you're loosing out on like 50% of the game. Because Beth.net is the only way for our console brothers and sisters to get themselves mods- I say we, modders, do our best to upload only the best stuff to Bethesda.net for them.

Instead of letting beth.net fail, we try to make it a success. PC players have had access to mods for a long time, and its not like they didn't have to fight and claw their way into having a proper resource like Nexus to do it either. But now, JUST NOW, we are finally getting our console cousins to join us in fully enjoying a Bethesda game with mods.

We have an opportunity to help them skip the stone age and the dark ages and come right into the modern era of gaming. The cost of doing this, is dealing with Bethesda.net - and the limitations of a console.

Why don't we step up, and show we are willing to deal with corporate crap to get our friends to join us?

[tartarsauce2]

I am sorry if what I'm saying here is repeated above, I didn't read every single post in this thread before posting:

 

When you purchase a bethesda game, you know that if you don't use mods you're loosing out on like 50% of the game. Because Beth.net is the only way for our console brothers and sisters to get themselves mods- I say we, modders, do our best to upload only the best stuff to Bethesda.net for them.

 

Instead of letting beth.net fail, we try to make it a success. PC players have had access to mods for a long time, and its not like they didn't have to fight and claw their way into having a proper resource like Nexus to do it either. But now, JUST NOW, we are finally getting our console cousins to join us in fully enjoying a Bethesda game with mods.

 

We have an opportunity to help them skip the stone age and the dark ages and come right into the modern era of gaming. The cost of doing this, is dealing with Bethesda.net - and the limitations of a console.

 

Why don't we step up, and show we are willing to deal with corporate crap to get our friends to join us?

why exactly would PC modders owe it to console players exactly to support a platform that potentially threatens a decent by/for/of fans community's wellbeing?

some modders upload to both and so on, but they don't owe it or have to, why should they? they don't even mod for you or me, they just mod for their own interests, some would mod for money and after seeing enough people I think it'd be plausible that paid modding wouldn't ruin the community, but that's provided bethesda doesn't try to monopolize modding site stuff, which leads us to the first question once more

 

not "it'd be really nice" which is a given, but why exactly *should* they, for them?

and if you answer with one of those mcdonald's slavedriving "we're a team!" things... lol no

Edited September 9, 2016 by tartarsauce2

[Arthmoor]

the progress "capitalism" has made is due to anti-capitalism driving it into submission at every turn

Stopped reading right there. Laughing too hard.

[jcdenton2012]

I like bacon.