"wah, wah- I want money" post on Gamasutra

[minngarm]

Why the f*#@ are you people even resurrecting this thread?

[jjb54]

Why the f*** are you people even resurrecting this thread?

 

Huh?

 

This thread is only 4 days old and it's been active since that date. There was no "resurrection" here .... * BLINKS *

[Reneer]

 

Why the f*** are you people even resurrecting this thread?

 

Huh?

 

This thread is only 4 days old and it's been active since that date. There was no "resurrection" here .... * BLINKS *

I'm pretty sure minngarm is talking about the topic in general, rather than this particular thread.

[jjb54]

 

 

Why the f*** are you people even resurrecting this thread?

 

Huh?

 

This thread is only 4 days old and it's been active since that date. There was no "resurrection" here .... * BLINKS *

I'm pretty sure minngarm is talking about the topic in general, rather than this particular thread.

 

 

Okay, I guess that makes sense .... but he did say: Thread and not Topic. Thus my, "Huh?" ;)

[lelcat]

 

 

 

What does Beth do for the Mod Creator?

.. Answer: Nothing.

Beth has ZERO Pre / Post -Costs for the Mod Creator to produce their Mod. Beth invests not 1 penny.

The most spectacularly dumb thing I have read this week.

 

 

Well lelcat, the most spectacularly dumb thing I've read this week is your comment. I mean, seriously, someone comes up with an intelligent and well reasoned argument, and your only response is a smug insult with no further explanation? C'mon that's just weak, not to mention disrespectful. By all means, disagree with him and argue the case against him. There are too many of these lazy responses - either say something worthwhile or keep quiet.

 

I think Reneer sat both of you down.

[jjb54]

 

.. but they 'don't and did not' .... which is the point.

I have to say I'm confused as to your argument. I'm saying that Bethesda would certainly be in the right to charge for the CK, but they don't. That they don't charge for the CK is a good thing for mod authors.

 

Now the fine print. I'm not so against Beth getting some of the "cut" of the pie. I'm not, do not get me wrong. But, as I pointed out in my other post - the "cut" is fully ripping off the Mod Creators in no small way.

 

Even if it was 50 / 50 Beth would still be making a more than fair even if it was 60 % Mod Creators and 40 % Beth - Beth would still come out ahead.

 

See, again - it's not about the $$$, it's about being fair to the Mod Creators, instead of playing "Strong Arm" and wanting to rip off the mod creators. That is my point.

Ok, let's talk about "fair share".

 

We'll first look at what is likely one of the closest analogies to modding: writing books in already-established universes (Star Wars, Star Trek, Halo, etc). Now in the traditional publishing industry as a whole, often the author of an original novel will get somewhere around 20% royalties on the sale of the book, while the publisher will get 80% (see here). This is because first the author will get an advance against royalties from the publisher, whereby the author will sell a license to their book to a publishing house with an advance of $5,000 against royalties of 5%. What that means is that the publisher gives the author $5,000 immediately and when the publisher has sold over $100,000 worth of books, the royalty starts kicking in and the author will get 5% on any additional sales the publisher makes. Again, this is all for traditional publishing with books on print.

 

Things get a little bit more complicated when you add in tie-in (existing universe) licensing. Now the author has to share their royalties with the company that owns the universe (say, Disney for Star Wars or Microsoft with Halo), and often the author will get 2% royalties while the licensor (Disney / Microsoft) will get 6%, for a total of 8% (source). Again, this is all within traditional book publishing. The rough percentages might be different, but you get the idea.

 

If you want to sell your book on Amazon CreateSpace, Amazon is the publisher and you can calculate roughly how much you will make when you sell your book. As an basic rule of thumb, I used the tool to calculate that selling a 200-page 5x8 book for $10 nets the author $2.75. If we do the math, we find that the author is getting 27.5%, while Amazon gets the rest (you can play with the numbers here).

 

When we get into electronic books, things get turned on their head. The risk that publishers take is much less than with traditional book publishing, which in turn gives authors a greater advantage. As an example, you can earn up to 70% royalties with Amazon Kindle Direct Publishing when you self-publish an electronic book but you have to meet certain restrictions - your book must cost more than $2.99 and can't cost more than $9.99 and download fees are subtracted from your royalties (think manufacturing costs). If you want to have a different price point or don't want the download fees to eat into your profits, you only can get a royalty of 35% (see here).

 

And this isn't even getting into the issue of using an existing universe. So lower the royalty percentages a bit more and, surprise, you get right into the 20-30% range. Which, surprisingly enough, is what mod authors were being given the first time around.

 

 

Again, you are talking "apples and oranges".

 

Even the Book Publication, there are MAJOR UPFRONT COSTS to publish a book. We are talking Raw Materials to all sorts of upfront seriously money costs.

 

You are not even the same "ball park".

 

Again I point out: ( As I have many clients in these industries and they would shoot this down as well. )

 

Recording Studios - Book Publication have real actual costs, major bucks to produce the Book or Record.

 

The Production Companies - be it books or records have to do the following:

 

Supply any and all:

 

* Raw Materials.

 

* Editors

 

* Sound Engineers

 

* Background Musicians

 

* Printing Costs.

 

* Promo Adds

 

and the list goes on and on. Real serious BIG BUCKS to produce the Book and/or Record of said AUTHOR.

 

Sorry - but Beth, put out the CK. That's it.

 

The Mod Creator Creates the Mods, packages the mod, "sells" the mod and is the sole person for any and all technical issues.

 

Beth has NONE OF THE FOLLOWING RELATED TO MODS CREATOR;

 

* Raw Materials Needed.

 

* Production costs of said Mod.

 

* Adds and Promo Sales

 

... and so on.

 

The Mod Creator has Pre - Post Time and Expense, for which Beth does NOT help out, other than 1 Tool - CK. That is it.

 

So sorry, the "Book Analogy" ... just does not work here either. As yes, I agree, the Author Gets a less percentage - because:

 

PUBLISHERS HAVE SERIOUS CASH OUT LAY TO PRODUCE SAID BOOK - RECORD.

[Reneer]

You obviously missed the part where I specifically wrote about electronic book publishing and how that is incredibly similar to the situation we are talking about. Ignore traditional book publishing. I was simply providing that as an explanation of where the publishing industry has come from and highlighting where it is now in regards to electronic book publishing to show how the industry has changed to meet new technical demands. If you want to keep insinuating that I'm arguing "apples and oranges" I'm simply going to ignore you.

 

I'll say it again, for clarity: The electronic book publishing ecosystem is a very good analogy to paid mods. Amazon, as an electronic book publisher, has to host the book on its servers (as Bethesda.net hosts mods), distribute the book (as Bethesda.net distributes mods to PC and console users), and organize / promote the book on its services (as Bethesda.net keeps track of vote ratings, downloads, the specific section the mod is under, etc). Electronic book publishers offer roughly 35% royalty to authors who publish with them. Bethesda / Valve was offering mod authors 25% and I imagine now that Valve is out of the equation Bethesda will offer mod authors 25-35% when paid mods happen again.

 

If you want to argue against my point, argue how electronic book publishing is different than what Bethesda.net does.

 

One more thing: Bethesda does provide "raw materials" for the mod authors in the form of the entire game world, all the in-game actors, sounds, weapons, lore, the scripting system, the dialogue system, etc.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Reneer

[jjb54]

You obviously missed the part where I specifically wrote about electronic book publishing and how that is incredibly similar to the situation we are talking about. Ignore traditional book publishing. I was simply providing that as an explanation of where the publishing industry has come from. And since the traditional media publishing ecosystem doesn't really apply to the paid mods situation at all, I'm simply going to ignore it.

 

I'll say it again, for clarity: The electronic book publishing ecosystem is a very good analogy to paid mods. Amazon, as an electronic book publisher, has to host the book on its servers (as Bethesda.net hosts mods), distribute the book (as Bethesda.net distributes mods to PC and console users), and organize / promote the book on its services (as Bethesda.net keeps track of vote ratings, downloads, the specific section the mod is under, etc). Electronic book publishers offer roughly 35% royalty to authors who publish with them. Bethesda / Valve was offering mod authors 25% and I imagine now that Valve is out of the equation Bethesda will offer mod authors 25-35% when paid mods happen again.

 

I am aware of E-Publish, as I'm working on that right now for a Book. :)

 

So again, I can speak from "live action" reality.

 

Again, let's take AMAZON - they have COSTS, to publish an E-Book. You do not just up-load a digital copy of your book and POOF, they "sell" it for you.

 

I have a friend on the "inside" of Amazon.

 

When I was starting to look into E-Publication, I was a bit surprised at what it costs for Amazon to "sell" something / anything on their site.

 

Again, they have MAJOR OVERHEAD expenses, for pre-post publication of anything and everything on Amazon, that the E-Author and/or Vendor does not have to pay for, or they would NEVER get published or on Amazon to sell their products.

 

See, here is the thing.

 

Sure you can look at PERCENTAGES - but you have to go into the REAL LIFE COSTS of "X" Company and what it costs them to publish - sell - promote any item on it's site, digital or otherwise.

 

They do NOT just " copy / paste " or simply UPLOAD a " Digital Author ". It goes through no small process before it's on the site.

 

One, of many many big expenses, in " Amazon Digital World ".

 

They have to have Lawyers & Para-Legals check and recheck Copyrights - Trade Rights - Plagiarism and so on. That is serious PRE-PRODUCTION COST AND OVERHEAD EXPENSES, that the Author - Seller does NOT have to pay.

 

Thus that REAL COST, is taken off the Author - Sellers " salary ".

 

See? Again, it's " apples and oranges ".

 

No matter if it's "Digital" or "Physical", the " author " in those worlds has no cash outlay. It falls ALL on the Production Company - Seller.

[Reneer]

I am aware of E-Publish, as I'm working on that right now for a Book. :smile:

 

So again, I can speak from "live action" reality.

 

Again, let's take AMAZON - they have COSTS, to publish an E-Book. You do not just up-load a digital copy of your book and POOF, they "sell" it for you.

 

I have a friend on the "inside" of Amazon.

 

When I was starting to look into E-Publication, I was a bit surprised at what it costs for Amazon to "sell" something / anything on their site.

 

Again, they have MAJOR OVERHEAD expenses, for pre-post publication of anything and everything on Amazon, that the E-Author and/or Vendor does not have to pay for, or they would NEVER get published or on Amazon to sell their products.

 

See, here is the thing.

 

Sure you can look at PERCENTAGES - but you have to go into the REAL LIFE COSTS of "X" Company and what it costs them to publish - sell - promote any item on it's site, digital or otherwise.

 

They do NOT just " copy / paste " or simply UPLOAD a " Digital Author ". It goes through no small process before it's on the site.

 

One, of many many big expenses, in " Amazon Digital World ".

 

They have to have Lawyers & Para-Legals check and recheck Copyrights - Trade Rights - Plagiarism and so on. That is serious PRE-PRODUCTION COST AND OVERHEAD EXPENSES, that the Author - Seller does NOT have to pay.

 

Thus that REAL COST, is taken off the Author - Sellers " salary ".

 

See? Again, it's " apples and oranges ".

 

No matter if it's "Digital" or "Physical", the " author " in those worlds has no cash outlay. It falls ALL on the Production Company - Seller.

You seem to be playing real fast and loose with what you mean by "apples and oranges". Because as far as I can figure my points are valid - electronic book publishing and paid mods are very similar ecosystems and thus it isn't outlandish for Bethesda to give mod authors a 25-35% percentage on paid mods, especially when mod authors are using Bethesda's intellectual property.

Edited August 4, 2016 by Reneer

[jjb54]

You seem to be playing real fast and loose with what you mean by "apples and oranges". Because as far as I can figure my points are valid - electronic book publishing and paid mods are very similar ecosystems and thus it isn't outlandish for Bethesda to give mod authors a 25-35% percentage on paid mods, especially when mod authors are using Bethesda's intellectual property.

 

 

No, again - you are ignoring the:

 

Pre-Post Production Costs that Amazon - Records - Book Companies have.

 

That is WHY the Percentage is what it is:

TO RECOUP THEIR PRE - POST PRODUCTION COSTS.

 

As said Author has to pay NONE of those expenses.

 

Again very real and very serious tangible costs to even produce 1 song or 1 book - digital or physical, that can easily total in the $100.00's of $1,000.'s and in some cases $1,000,0000.'s in UPFRONT cash outlay, which they only get that money back in the sales of said product.

 

So sorry, I understand what you are trying to say. But you are ignoring the very real costs of the PRODUCTION of said Digital / Physical Product.

 

They have to recoup those COSTS to stay in business, thus why they get a bigger cut. Again, to recover the $$$ they already spent for Book - Record - Product: Digital or Otherwise.