Skyrim isn't dumbed down. Purists are.

[Mar34]

Skyrim is dumbed down, simple, but they added stuff too, crafting, better combat, more alive world and more. However they did take a lot out, they took out crossbows and spears, yeah nobody used them much, but they added to the atmosphere. skills, spell crafting, levitation, a lot of my favorite things however to some people they were probably a welcome change. Morrowind had more detailed dungeons, I remember exploring a random cave and finding a whole daedric area down there it had tons of loot, artifacts, you could practically become a god from artifacts and enchantments. Also instead of daedric adorning every bandit in the game at higher levels there was only 2 suits in the entire game, and neither was easily acquired. And of course artifacts and high level weapons were extremely expensive adding incentive to look for them and reflecting their rarity.

 

But I am sure a lot of people hated not being able to sell their ebony and daedric weapons for full price, and just found the game too confusing. Sadly that leaves those of us who enjoyed it out of luck, mods can only go so far.

[Stratomunchkin]

There are some basic gameplay issues that are problematic; the serious loss of power for all magic-leaning players is one of them, as is the lack of character customization. This is an open-world RPG, after all. Your character ('s appearance) should be as customizable as can be.

 

I'd have gladly waited another half a year had I gotten a game with a higher degree of immersion. As it is, Skyrim presents a great setting, let's you reach demi-god like levels of personal powers - and let's you influence extremely little overall.

 

I think the depth of the factions and their interactions is another major issue; it seems to have been almost totally ignored. Which really is a shame for a game that uses a civil war and the intrigues between noble families as its setting. Even if it doesn't amount to anything, it's the kind of stuff the game should present you with, very frequently. It's not just the Legion, it's endemic to the whole game. I'm still in the middle of the exploring part of my first playthrough, so I really don't mind that much right now, but after all is said and done, this sadly seems to follow the line of great Bethesda sandbox game where you're really ending up not doing all that much in the sandbox.

 

And that's what infuriates me with Bethesda: this sort of... half-assedness. I would understand it if the game engine couldn't handle it. But if the long history of modding BethSoft's games has shown one thing then it's that the engines can handle that sort of stuff, and very well so!

 

Thoughts about this issue always bring me back to Oblivion. There was this one side quest where you were asked by a bunch of settlers to help them with two goblin tribes in the region, and if you did and later came back to the settlers, you'd see the changes you affected (twice, I think) in so far that their tents were replaced by farms and farm land and the like.

 

So far, what little I cared for in Skyrim, these changes haven't happened. Sure, I'm the Thane of Falkreath and stuff, but neither can I influence decisions there, nor do the people care. For that matter, something should happen with those dragon skeletons I leave behind. One's right in the town square of Falkreath - and nobody notices or cares.

 

Things don't change. Towns and villages don't change. People don't change. Skyrim is far better than Oblivion in general, but in that regard it seems to be your typical Bethesda game: they built a great sandbox and left it at that.

 

Look at Falkreath and the situation there. The game even tells you that the old Jarl has been replaced against his will, and you immediately realize the new Jarl is a corrupt douchebag whose hold is run by his Aldmeri "advisor". Perfect hook for intrigues and quests with an impact on the actual setting. But do we get that? Nooo.

 

I suppose the gist of my post is that once the first rush of being impressed has worn off (I'm still midway in that since I'm still exploring :biggrin: ) the world appears lifeless and non-reactive. Not necessarily as "bad" as in other Beth games. But certainly not as good as the engine and the scripting allows.

[Pineapplerum]

:hurr:

[Goliath978]

Did...you just write this to start arguments?

No...it's the truth

[Herculine]

Did...you just write this to start arguments?

No...it's the truth

 

Opinion and truth are subjective.

[HaikenEdge]

Did...you just write this to start arguments?

No...it's the truth

 

Opinion and truth are subjective.

Opinion, yes. Truth, kind of; there's the factual truth, which is pretty much indisputable, and also the truth that people believe, which is definitely subjective, but even then, you could classify the latter as actually a belief, and therefore an opinion and not a truth, so technically speaking, Truth isn't really subjective.

[Herculine]

Did...you just write this to start arguments?

No...it's the truth

 

Opinion and truth are subjective.

Opinion, yes. Truth, kind of; there's the factual truth, which is pretty much indisputable, and also the truth that people believe, which is definitely subjective, but even then, you could classify the latter as actually a belief, and therefore an opinion and not a truth, so technically speaking, Truth isn't really subjective.

 

Sorry. I was referring more to attitudes like: "I typed my opinion in a gaming forum, therefore it is the indisputable truth".

[DeadSpace]

besides weapons being lumped together when they shouldn't have...disenchanting to learn enchantments? reallly? that makes sense? apparently somewhere between oblivion and skyrim everyone who knew how to craft enchanted weapons was killed or mind wiped...which means in another few hundred years there will be fewer if any enchanted items at all since none can be made from scratch anymore.

 

that's another example of dumbing down, they didn't add the the old enchantment system, which made sense, but implemented a new one which was far easier and allowed tighter control of what could be created. what should have been done was synergy betwixt the various magic paths and enchanting. unlocking enchantable effects through the various perk magic trees. that would have preserved enchanting in future games...as it is now...couple of thousand years only very few of what people consider the most important enchantment effects will remain. since you have to destroy to learn.

 

more examples: flight, creating your own spells, both also removed because it allows beth to have tighter control over what the player can do...besides the non-open cities introduced in oblivion make flight a no-no.

 

smithing, while a great addition, has another serious flaw...making armor/weapons is no easy task, and most definitely not instinctive yet skyrim treats it as if it is there should have been masters in each of the perks you need to learn from before you could craft that type...but...like the weapon trees, no spell crafting, bad enchanting system...it's easy. simple, even a caveman can do it.

 

i like the game...but not going to blindly defend it's obvious flaws just because i like it. think a lot of that goes on here...just because you like something...doesn't mean it has to be perfect.

[hymhym]

For the most part, you HAD to level skills a certain way

 

Yes, for those 5x multipliers, same as oblivion. Skyrim has a much better system then that.

Some mods in oblivion even fixed it, and Skyrim has incorporated those ideas. But everyone has different tastes, but ffs please people, wait till the CK comes out then you can mod it to however you like.

 

I don't think anyone would claim that the stat system in Oblivion was good - hence all the mods that fixed it, but removing it altogether is not fixing it. Skyrim has not incorporated any mod ideas on stats, it just removed the concept completely. Some seem to like it, while others do not. What irks me is when people say that hose who want stats are morons. That is not a healthy debate on any issue.

 

 

The lack of more skills/stats can be an annoyance for some, but it is not totally game-breaking, and likely will see a change via mods down the road (after all, we got a full conversion of Oblivion from the skill-bar levels to XP per kill/quest, this can't be too much more complicated).

 

Well, it actually can - and probably is, and might even be impossible. That depends on how much of the system is hardcoded and how much is script based, Changing Oblivion to use XP is not that hard - it just requires considerable amount of work. Since all that is needed for such thing is to tweak the default skill progress rates to zero and add in a script that tracks XP accumulation. The leveling part of a such system can be handled by another scipt that simply uses functions to increase your skills and stats. This is all possible because it uses functions and variables already present in the game.

 

Adding a completely new skill into a game is usually pretty much impossible. Or you can add it, but it will be completely removed from the default skill system, and thus any other modification that tweaks the default skill system will not tweak the new skill.

 

That is the main reason why I lament the loss of stats - they were on more thing to fiddle with, They presented a set of options for modders to use as tools. Once you added a Realistic Leveling mod into Oblivion, you could pretty much ignore all the frustrating aspect of them during gameplay. And if you thought they were mattered to you personally, you still had the option to pay attention to the, If you didn't you could just ignore them completely. With Skyrim, all but the option to ignore them were lost.

 

As to the OP of this thread - you are just a poor misguided fool who lacks the skills to use numbers. We, who do know how to use them, feel sorry for you, and hope that one day you will learn their proper usage. Perhaps then, you too, can finally enjoy the game, and have a deep and immersive gaming experience. Perhaps then you don't have to just go on adventures, but can participate in epic stories.

[Vindekarr]

Skyrim is not dumbed down. It doesn't have pointless stats. Or pointless numbers. It has a lot more depth than Morrowind or Obliion combined, but for the misguided fool it may seem that fewer pointless numbers or stats mean the game is dumbed down. It's actually much deeper and more time can be spent ENJOYING the game, not the most pointless thing and something that I simply couldn't give a sh it about: the levels. I don't know what level I am. I just immerse into the world and if you'd stop trying to play it like dungeons and dragons or world of warnerd you'd be able to play 100hrs and have just breached the surface of things to do. Not levels to complete, but adventures.

 

Classes are pointless too.

All it is is purist fever: the core fans hate change and if it ain't a reskin of the favorite it's not a true sequel or is "dumbed down" as many purists are saying about Skyrim.

 

Same problem in any game community. I played morrowind lots too...great...in that level never cared about my level, and there was so mug less depth than oblivion. If you stop caring about the useless: levels and numbers and text, you'll see Skyrim kicks the sh it out of morrowind.

 

You know mate, that's a bit unsubtle, but I have to agree with you. Its shameful how many PC gamers treat their console kinsmen like second class citizens, the level of elitism is appauling. Frankly I sometimes feel ashamed to call myself a PC gamer simply because of how abnoxious the vocal PC gaming community is. Console players are gamers to, calling them the usual tropes of "idiots" or "casuals" just proves PC gamers are a pack of repulsive hidebound elitists, and makes me feel ashamed to identify with them, no matter my almost exclusively PC playing background.

 

Consoles are gaming for the masses, and as far as I'm concerned, that's entirely a good thing. More consoles = more gamers, more gamers, more profit in the industry, better industry = more games, more games, more fun. Treating console players like the spawn of all evil, acting as if ownership of a PC somehow maks you superior, and spouting endless garbage about how consoles are "ruining" the games industry is just shameful. We're all the same at a core level-we all love games.

 

And the other thing to remember is for some, ownership of a console is not a choice-a gaming PC is a lot more expensive than a console, and a lot of people lack the quantity of spare time needed to make their own. So, consoles attain some popularity by selling to those who cannot afford a PC. Console players aren't "12" or "a bunch of idiots" console games aren't "dumbed down for idiots" If anyone has a problem it's the PC community, who's elitism and willingness to attack people for difering likes or choices is absolutely shameful.

 

I miss the days when, a hella long time ago, being a PC gamer actualy meant something. Yes, a long time ago we were the elite, but not anymore, most gaming PCs are simply treated like consoles now, and so few people build their own rigs that they may aswell be another console. Yet the elitism remains, and has grown even stronger, and to be honest, I'm sick of it, when you badmouth a console player to seem cool, when you tell someone they're an idiot because they're too poor to buy a $7500 Alienware, all you do is drag the repuation of my beloved platform through the mud. It's like bogans-they drag the Australian flag through the mud by wearing it as a cape. :facepalm: For shame.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Vindekarr