Skyrim isn't dumbed down. Purists are.

[capngagi]

I agree completely, man. Almost 50 hours clocked--and I haven't even explored all the areas, progressed much of any of the quest-lines, and I've only been to a few Holds. This game is great when you just don't worry about leveling or stats.

[DorkDiva]

Purists are dumbed down?

 

 

I think everyone is dumbed down. No one wins. :thumbsup:

Everyone plays the TES games for their own reasons.

[IndorilTheGreat]

I know! We should make a game where you play a character in a fantasy world, and we use a die-rolling system. Oh, and we should keep track of all the stats using pencil and paper.

 

Oh, wait...

 

Seriously. If people are looking for a true RPG, go and play D&D. I'm honestly getting tired of this "Elitist" vs "Victim" argument. It's making the whole gaming community look bad. Nothing will be as in depth as the old classic table-top RPGs. Why? Because those allowed you to use your imagination when you play. You can create whatever adventure you want. If you're looking for a true RPG experience, that's the way to go.

 

As for me, I am perfectly content with playing Skyrim. Sure, it could use some improvements and some "older" methods re-implemented. But it's still a good game. And that is why I bought it - not to have an argument over who (and what) is better.

[Stratomunchkin]

I don't think classes and attributes really were necessary. As I've said earlier, my gripes with the game are centered around the issue of immersion. However, I'd like to have the skill levels have a tangible effect of their own. Right now, they just seem to serve as ways to let you grind till you reach a value high enough to get a certain perk. It should make a difference if you've got a skill level of 10 or 30 in something.

[Sabatasso]

The compass leads you directly to points of interest, if that isn't "dumbing down" then I don't know what is. And another note, what is the point of a spell called "Clairvoiance" when the compass does the exact same thing 24/7 if you just mark the quest you want in your log?

 

And that wasn't the case in Oblivion and other games by Bethesda? Or Fable? Or Dragon Age? Markers and minimaps have been used in numerous games before so criticizing Skyrim for this is at the very least disingenuous.

 

By the way Clairvoyance is the perfect spell for people who don't like quest markers since it provides a way to make use of these markers while being in character. So you don't like the fact that there is a magic compass pointing in the direction where your character has to go because it seems fake, I get that, using this spell means that your character is compensating for this in game.

 

TES and Fallout have always been about character customization and a big sandbox to play in for me.

 

You mean Fallout 3? Because I would definitely say that Fallout 3 is a dumbed down version of the SPECIAL system from the original Fallout (Traits are gone, Tags don't really matter, damage is only affected by DR, I could go on all day) but I wouldn't say that Skyrim is dumbed down in comparison to Oblivion.

 

Sure you've got less numbers to crunch but you don't have the hassle of having to powergame to be able to enjoy the game. There is nothing intuitive in selecting skills that you're not going to use as your class skills so you can control when and where you're getting a level in order to make sure that you will get +5 in three stats. Not to mention of course that in order to get as many hit points as possible you have to make sure that you increase Endurance first...

 

Going out of your way to build a character around arbitrary rules is not what roleplaying is about.

 

Skyrim may not be perfect but it allows you to develop your character according to your playing style and that's definitely an improvement as far as I'm concerned.

 

Well, I said I didn't like to be pointed directly at all the points of interest in the game. I didn't say I disliked it in Skyrim alone, it goes for all games as far as I'm concerned. And the quest markers are hardly the only "point of interest" shown on the compass in Skyrim. Also, this is a Skyrim discussion, so I assumed that I did not have to write my thoughts on every damn game released the last ten years, just to please you. I also mentioned that I was positive towards some of the stats removals, as I prefer Athletics and Acrobatics removed rather than having them in at the state it was in Oblivion. But if it was up to me, they could be there but revised. So I really don't see the point of attacking me for being generally positive, but mildly skeptic at the same time when there are outright trolls harassing every removal of skill in the game that you can freely attack without getting a sane answer in return from.

 

I also never said anything about loving nubercrunching or powergaming, that was your mistaken assumtions, and quite frankly such assumptions provoke me and make you look like an ass to be honest.

 

And I oppose your claim that it isn't intuitive to choose your characters style by choosing some skills, because if everyone was equally good at everything it isn't no longer a roleplaying game. You can play a role, but everyone would have the play more or less the same role and it would be Superheroman-of-all-Trades the Dragonslayer. With choices we can at least have some variation, like we do in Vanilla now, but with a little personal molding before the adventure starts.

 

I don't think our views are so different in the end, but you seem like the type of guy that see only extremes, you view or the wrong view, and I don't really have any interest in discussing more with you at all. All your accusations about my views falls for it's own sensibility because you use partly what I said and assume the rest before you conclusion. You, sir, fail.

 

PS. For the record, the quest marker does not really bother me at all, it saves me a whole lot of reading if I failed to pay attention in a conversation. Not that the conversations ever holds enough information in the first place... I only mentioned the quest marker since we have the "allmighty" Clairvoyance spell present in the game, very usefull since we have quest markers don't you think?

It's all the other "points of interests that bother me, but not the Cities and known keeps, hidden places and bandit camps on the other hand should not be visible on compass unless you can see it from where you're standing.

Edited November 25, 2011 by Sabatasso

[DarkGenius]

Where are your Brains People? certainly not on your heads as far I can tell.

 

How can one say the Magic System is better? BETTER HOW... no "spellcraft." How are we supposed to experiment Magic now? Increase Skills? Turn into a Dragon-Exterminator-Spell-Weaving-Mage without their own set of spells? That was dumb from Bethesda to remove the Spellcraft, they hid it in mystery. They kept it really hidden, Maybe they'll release an Magicka DLC? something that brings spells like Silence? Bound Armor? Daedra Summoning? Maybe bring back Spellcraft that would definitely save the life of Mages and Wizards of Skyrim?

 

I'm sorry if there's some people that disagree, but in my experience this Magic System is ridiculous.. simple ridiculous. Being a Master of all the Arcane Arts, and have have the inability to create/design my own spells is simply frustrating experience of all Magic Learners in the TES Sequel. What did they think It would be?

 

There aren't many Mages in SKYRIM, the EMOTION, the RAGE, the ADRENALINE that one gets from Combating a Dragon up close, is worth the sacrifice of Mage players in Skyrim? They didn't fairly earn the Game of the Year. Why do we have to pick sides? as the almighty Dragonborn can be, why doesn't them allow us to Wipe every faction and Build an whole new Faction with the Dragonborn calling the shots? I'm not some Corrupt Empire Slave to gave away my honor as Dragonborn and Master of the Arcane to be called simply as Legate, nor an Traitor, to betray my ideals and build an Ignorant Nord Kingdom. I wish I could be free, but the only way is to serve one or other. Isn't it simply frustrating?

 

It all seems an embellishment to erase Magic from the game, it looks. I'm thinking of Joining the Aldmeri Dominion, they may have spellcrafting in their Capitals. Tired of Nords and their True Nord code of Ignorance.

 

Alchemy doesn't allow us to experiment (Failed Results are completely deleted, so the effects must be completely exact to be worth something in effort, resume: No Experimenting)

 

Enchanting, I'd like to know how would disenchanting break Items, since Magic is Energy and can't be treated like any Materia (physical substance) They invented a way. I think Bethesta is composed of Scientists, they simply do love inventions, and if there's something New, they copy it. I really would like them to be historians for a change.

 

Are they trying to compesate roleplayers with Graphics? For a roleplayer what matters is Roleplay Quality, not Graphic Quality. The history of The Elder Scrolls is composed of Roleplayers, the MAIN point of RPG is Roleplaying. The new spells are Shiny, Glowy, to simplify; AWESOMIFIED (I don't believe that word exists, but it fits) No way a game can be good with more graphics in exchange for playability.

 

And Also, I'd like to thank you, the reader, whose patience is being tested in this commentary. I'm proof of the Ignorance of Bethesda, I loved roleplaying as Wizard/Mage. And Now I can't.

Be a petty mage? wield only 60 that can't be researched only bought? is that how Magic is teached? Only by books? Nirn is a Planet of Magic, Tamriel is Magical. Where did it go? Swallowed by time? by ages? I'm ain't willing to believe that the next TES sequels would be so Empty of Magic information.

 

Magic is being slowly, flushed away.

 

PS: Thank you those who the intellects and logic, have agreed with me. You have my Faith and Hope of Changes In all things magical.

 

Julianos's Blessings to all!

 

Sincerely,

 

DG. :D

Edited November 25, 2011 by DarkGenius

[Sabatasso]

Very valid points, DarkGenius. I don't think the Enchanting point has anything to do with dumbing down, but it's clearly questionable. And I agree with you completely in every word.

[Pineapplerum]

I think old schoolers in practically every game think that their games are being dumbed down but I don't think the 'purists' which I translate to Old Schoolers are dumbed down.

 

I have a lot of respect for Old Schoolers. I think games are changing to suit the needs of the larger majority they have playing them. Games have become very popular and people like me...a noob, sort of, in my own way...come on the scene and say, "whoa, this is way too hard or complicated" I get discouraged and find an easier game to play because this game frustrates me. I'm not the only one but a lot of noobs are doing the same. The people making these games are doing so to make money. They hear us saying "too hard! too complicated!" so they change things to make it easier and less complicated so that us noobs don't get confused and frustrated and going off to find other games to play.

I play an online game and I have a lot of conversations with the old schoolers. They tell me what the game use to be like. It's not even a sequel game, it's the game the old schoolers started out with that the makers have changed over the course of the years to acommodate all the new players who've joined up over the years. The old schoolers tell me what it took for them to earn, yes, earn something way back in the beginning while me, the new player, gets the same thing with ease now. It's not just one or two things, it's a lot of things. The old schoolers get frustrated and I don't blame them.

 

I don't think you should be insulting the people who played these games since the very beginning of when the game just came out. I think they put in a lot of time and have a lot of knowledge about the game.

I personally do see how some things in games, not just this one, are being changed to make it more simplified for a wider group of consumers.

One thing I've noticed about old schoolers is they like their games hard. I mean, what I would find to be impossible to play, they would relish in and enjoy the challenge of it. They will slice through crap with ease that it would take me 3 years just to start to chip through. The hard core mode is even too simple for them. One hand tied behind their back and blindfolded and they still think it's too easy. " Baaaa, Give me a challenge!" They cry.

With that, I will say, Old schoolers, you have to understand, a lot of us just cannot handle that kind of hard core stuff. We want to enjoy the game, too.

 

I'm sure it's hard for the game makers to find a balance between the two and all the in betweeners. They're not going to satisfy everyone.

 

I don't like "purists" being insulted and said they're being dumbed down because with an online game, you'll see how the purists shine. They're the ones taking noobs like me and becoming mentors to us, showing us cool tricks in the game and teaching us how to utilize things for the maximum gain in gameplay.

I think they do the same with games that aren't online, too.

[abaris]

 

I have a lot of respect for Old Schoolers. I think games are changing to suit the needs of the larger majority they have playing them.

 

 

Let me say, in this case I'm rather comfortable yet not entirely happy with the changes they made. And I understand that they need to appeal to a broader audience. But in some cases, not Skyrim, the doors have been blown wide open to fit the needs of the lowest common denominator. Which, if you go all the way, is the beer gobbling couch potato with reading difficulties.

 

But there are changes and these are hardly satisfying if you're playing on the PC. The UI has been mentioned. It's entirely consolised and a pain in the backside for everyone playing with standard keyboard and mouse. The problem is, PC games nowadays turn out to be console ports without any love and labor put into the needs of a different platform. And that in itself is a case of dumbing down.

 

And then there are such minor nuissances as NPCs not the least bit reacting to their changing environment and the PCs achievements. If you are the leader of this and that and what have you, being adressed by a nobody with: "you're much better suited for such a menial task" is just as if the game is out to break your immersion.

[Shantih]

Stats: they're pointless. Nuff said.

Demonstrate how this is true. As a counterpoint, I'd use the slippery slope argument: say I agree stats are pointless; then surely, the logical next step would be that skills are pointless too, and everybody should just be able to do everything anyways. I mean, what's the point of indicating how strong, fast or tough a character is? I mean, it's just as pointless as indicating how good at weapons, armor or magic the same character is.

 

If you're looking for a demonstration here it is:

 

http://www.thenexusforums.com/index.php?/topic/464801-rpg-does-not-equal-numbers

 

By the way your logic is fallacious but I guess someone who likes to nitpick as much as you probably misses all the number crunching. ;)

 

There is nothing wrong with skills representing how good your character has become by training and practice. The possibility to increase Magicka, Health and Stamina insures that there is still room for development.

 

Stats can be artificially introduced to represent various elements. Stamina could be broken into two or three different "stats" for instance but that wouldn't make the game any deeper or any better.

 

Stats and skills were linked in Oblivion so much so that it actually makes sense to remove them. It could be said that the way stats and skills were linked in Oblivion is the element that made redundant. Getting rid of them was only logical.

Just because you don't like the argument, doesn't make it fallacious.

 

In the next game, it'll only be logical to remove skills too. I mean, these skills are artificially introduced anyways; what matters what my character's archery or stealth skill is, when, as a player, it all really depends on where you aim, or how well you stay out of shadows? I mean, what's the point of having crafting skills? With enough trial and error (and materials of course), even I can make sword in real-life, and I have absolutely no experience in how to make a sword in the first place. Or how about magic? What's the point of having skills for destruction or restoration? They're artificially introduced anyways, and the level of a spell might as well determine how effective it is.

 

To take it further, what's the point of Health? Players are going to reload the game when they die anyways, why not just skip that and let them live forever?

 

If you want to talk about artificially introduced number crunching, it can apply to any kind of numbers, including skills and stats people generally actually find useful. The point is, the label, "artificially introduced" is arbitrary, so why not just label every stat "artificially introduced" and end up with The Elder Scrolls: Rage?

 

Your argument is fallacious because it is based on a false analogy between stats and skills. You're trying to imply that removing stats is like removing skills and that once stats have been removed from the game the next logical step will be to remove skills.

 

There is nothing that allows us to infer such a conclusion. In fact I've tried to point out that in Oblivion stats and skills were clearly linked together and in a way almost interchangeable and as such it was only logical to remove stats because they were not needed for the skill system to work efficiently.

 

I don't like your argument because you're suggesting that removing stats is like removing the entire skill system and that's simply not the case. There is no point in having a character or in having levels if you remove skills.

 

Some posters have hinted that Skyrim was not an RPG but an adventure game and that is a caricature. I guess it's easier to distort and simplify facts rather than give the game a chance and approach it with an open mind.

 

Removing stats was a bold move because it was bound to cause some complaints in the fanbase. Frankly before playing the game I wasn't thrilled by the idea but after seeing how this is implemented and how this prevents Skyrim from being bogged down in the messy levelling system that plagued (unmodded) Oblivion I can only say that sometimes less is more.

 

There are some things I don't like about Skyrim but the absence of stats is not one of them.

 

The compass leads you directly to points of interest, if that isn't "dumbing down" then I don't know what is. And another note, what is the point of a spell called "Clairvoiance" when the compass does the exact same thing 24/7 if you just mark the quest you want in your log?

 

And that wasn't the case in Oblivion and other games by Bethesda? Or Fable? Or Dragon Age? Markers and minimaps have been used in numerous games before so criticizing Skyrim for this is at the very least disingenuous.

 

By the way Clairvoyance is the perfect spell for people who don't like quest markers since it provides a way to make use of these markers while being in character. So you don't like the fact that there is a magic compass pointing in the direction where your character has to go because it seems fake, I get that, using this spell means that your character is compensating for this in game.

 

TES and Fallout have always been about character customization and a big sandbox to play in for me.

 

You mean Fallout 3? Because I would definitely say that Fallout 3 is a dumbed down version of the SPECIAL system from the original Fallout (Traits are gone, Tags don't really matter, damage is only affected by DR, I could go on all day) but I wouldn't say that Skyrim is dumbed down in comparison to Oblivion.

 

Sure you've got less numbers to crunch but you don't have the hassle of having to powergame to be able to enjoy the game. There is nothing intuitive in selecting skills that you're not going to use as your class skills so you can control when and where you're getting a level in order to make sure that you will get +5 in three stats. Not to mention of course that in order to get as many hit points as possible you have to make sure that you increase Endurance first...

 

Going out of your way to build a character around arbitrary rules is not what roleplaying is about.

 

Skyrim may not be perfect but it allows you to develop your character according to your playing style and that's definitely an improvement as far as I'm concerned.

 

Well, I said I didn't like to be pointed directly at all the points of interest in the game. I didn't say I disliked it in Skyrim alone, it goes for all games as far as I'm concerned. And the quest markers are hardly the only "point of interest" shown on the compass in Skyrim. Also, this is a Skyrim discussion, so I assumed that I did not have to write my thoughts on every damn game released the last ten years, just to please you. I also mentioned that I was positive towards some of the stats removals, as I prefer Athletics and Acrobatics removed rather than having them in at the state it was in Oblivion. But if it was up to me, they could be there but revised. So I really don't see the point of attacking me for being generally positive, but mildly skeptic at the same time when there are outright trolls harassing every removal of skill in the game that you can freely attack without getting a sane answer in return from.

 

I also never said anything about loving nubercrunching or powergaming, that was your mistaken assumtions, and quite frankly such assumptions provoke me and make you look like an ass to be honest.

 

I don't think our views are so different in the end, but you seem like the type of guy that see only extremes, you view or the wrong view, and I don't really have any interest in discussing more with you at all. All your accusations about my views falls for it's own sensibility because you use partly what I said and assume the rest before you conclusion. You, sir, fail.

 

PS. For the record, the quest marker does not really bother me at all, it saves me a whole lot of reading if I failed to pay attention in a conversation. Not that the conversations ever holds enough information in the first place...

 

If you don't want people to make wrong assumptions about what you've posted then you should try to be clear about what you're saying. You've criticized Skyrim for having these markers as if they were specific to this game and given that this feature can be found in most games this doesn't prove that Skyrim is dumbed down. You could only expect people to stress this point.

 

I find ironic that you're offended that I brought up other games when you indeed brought up "TES and Fallout" first. If you can bring most Bethesda titles into the discussion I don't think that bringing up other games is in any way inappropriate.

 

Going back over my post you may notice that there is absolutely no personal attack whereas you my friend are on the verge of resorting to namecalling -the "sir" doesn't make your post respectful. There is no need for such unwarranted hostility.