Imperial VS Stormcloak

[sajuukkhar9000]

Do you really want me to start on Siddgeir, the drunken incompetent who insinuates that the Nords should ally with the Thalmor against the Empire. He is replaced by Dengeir, who's throne he usurped unlawfully in collusion with the Imperials in the first place.

Nothing in the game suggests he usurped Dengier's throne, except Dengier himself, who shows very clear signs of advanced paranoia.

 

How about Jarl Idgrod, who ignores the day-to-day concerns of governance in favor of arcane dabbling and has nothing but contempt for the concerns of her people, who is replaced by Sorli the Builder (quite an auspicious name), the only Jarl who actually spends significant time outside her longhouse, getting to know her people and their concerns.

That's untrue, Idgrod hires you to look into the investigation of the house fire, and the only problem she "ignores" is that of there being a mage in the city that everyone believes is evil, which is local superstition, and Igrod only "ignores" it because she knows that in time, after people have a chance to interact with Falion, and understand hes not evil, this hatred will fade away.

 

Jarl Igmund is much like Laila, an unoffensive but a wholly incapable politician who acts as an unwitting figure head for the Silver-Bloods, he is replaced by Thongvor Silver-Blood, a man of stalwart political and ecclesiastical integrity who despite his name, is uninvolved in the corruption and crimes that his younger brother wreaks on the hold.

Nothing at all says he is uninvolved with the corruption of his family, just that he is the is the more political guy in the family, while his brother runs the mining part.

 

Furthermore, if you kill Maddonach in Chidna mine, Thongvor even says "I hear from my brother you have done our family a service", showing he was fully aware of what was going on in the mine, and knew that killing Madonach helped his brother and him because of how Madonach was going crazy.

 

And why not Jarl Elisif herself, a pampered brat who knows even less of ruling than Laila and Igmund and is a willing puppet for her foreign Imperial masters, her only real act of governance being the banning of a harmless play.

A play that is in bad taste considering it involving the burning of a King, and the high king was just killed.

Edited February 8, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[Kayyyleb]

Do you really want me to start on Siddgeir, the drunken incompetent who insinuates that the Nords should ally with the Thalmor against the Empire. He is replaced by Dengeir, who's throne he usurped unlawfully in collusion with the Imperials in the first place. How about Jarl Idgrod, who ignores the day-to-day concerns of governance in favor of arcane dabbling and has nothing but contempt for the concerns of her people, who is replaced by Sorli the Builder (quite an auspicious name), the only Jarl who actually spends significant time outside her longhouse, getting to know her people and their concerns. Jarl Igmund is much like Laila, an unoffensive but a wholly incapable politician who acts as an unwitting figure head for the Silver-Bloods, he is replaced by Thongvor Silver-Blood, a man of stalwart political and ecclesiastical integrity who despite his name, is uninvolved in the corruption and crimes that his younger brother wreaks on the hold.

 

And why not Jarl Elisif herself, a pampered brat who knows even less of ruling than Laila and Igmund and is a willing puppet for her foreign Imperial masters, her only real act of governance being the banning of a harmless play.

Siddgeir doesn't rule his hold at all. Leaving all the governance to his steward which is ironically a good decision. He might hold the title of jarl but he doesn't exercise any of the authority. His replacement is a paranoid schizophrenic, by the way so Falkreath doesn't get a good leader on either side anyways so there's no Stormcloak advantage here.

 

Idgrod is a tad eccentric and detached from her people, but still a good and logical leader who cares about her people when she determines that they have real problems instead of superstitions. Sorli is one of the few (if only) good Stormcloak jarl replacements, I'll give you that. But she's replacing someone who wasn't bad to start with.

 

Now I'm rather curious why you think Thongvor is a good jarl. Before becoming jarl all he does is sit in the keep and whine about not getting his way with the jarl. He's also another stereotypical Stormcloak racist who hates all elves regardless of subrace or any connection to the Thalmor. Stormcloak racism against non-man races is just as immature and immoral as the Thalmor's racism against mankind. Sure, he promises to stop the Forsworn threat and that seems noble enough until you realize his own brother is the one holding Madanach's leash and masterminding the attacks in the first place. The Silver-Blood family is merely the Stormcloak's version of the Black-Briars. This is rather plainly obvious.

 

Elisif is in the same boat as Siddgeir to a degree. She doesn't really rule, Falk does. And that's perfectly fine with me. Falk is an honorable man who cares about Solitude and repeatedly asks the Dragonborn to assist with matters vital to the hold's safety. Elisif is very young, very inexperienced and very impressionable. Normally this would be a bad thing, but she's got excellent mentors to guide her toward becoming queen with Falk and General Tullius (who are both excellent leaders) running the show in the mean time. You act like being a "puppet" of the Empire is a terrible evil, but really it's the Stormcloaks who are the antagonists causing much of the strife in Skyrim, not the Imperials. Yes the White Gold Concordat was bad. But we all know that if the Empire can rally and defeat the Aldmeri Dominion then the ban on Talos worship will be eradicated instantly. Stormcloaks don't have the tact or patience to understand that they're doing exactly what the Thalmor want: weakening the Empire. Instead of biding their time and playing along for now while they prepare for the next conflict. This logic and strategy is part of why the Imperials have dominated Tamriel for as long as they have. Stormcloak shortsightedness is a severe threat to mankind in the long term.

[ZagreustheLiar]

Do you really want me to start on Siddgeir, the drunken incompetent who insinuates that the Nords should ally with the Thalmor against the Empire. He is replaced by Dengeir, who's throne he usurped unlawfully in collusion with the Imperials in the first place.

Nothing in the game suggests he usurped Dengier's throne, except Dengier himself, who shows very clear signs of advanced paranoia.

 

He was mysteriously removed from office seemingly out of nowhere, as we have not heard any complaints about his rule other than his advanced age. And why would they want to replace with Siddgeir of all people?

 

How about Jarl Idgrod, who ignores the day-to-day concerns of governance in favor of arcane dabbling and has nothing but contempt for the concerns of her people, who is replaced by Sorli the Builder (quite an auspicious name), the only Jarl who actually spends significant time outside her longhouse, getting to know her people and their concerns.

That's untrue, Idgrod hires you to look into the investigation of the house fire, and the only problem she "ignores" is that of there being a mage in the city that everyone believes is evil, which is local superstition, and Igrod only "ignores" it because she knows that in time, after people have a chance to interact with Falion, and understand hes not evil, this hatred will fade away.

 

She only asks you to look into it because the wolves are howling at her doorstep. The issue with Falion is not obviously not the only problem, her attitude as a whole to the people she rules is aloof and superior, she is obviously more interested in the vagaries of magic than ruling.

 

Jarl Igmund is much like Laila, an unoffensive but a wholly incapable politician who acts as an unwitting figure head for the Silver-Bloods, he is replaced by Thongvor Silver-Blood, a man of stalwart political and ecclesiastical integrity who despite his name, is uninvolved in the corruption and crimes that his younger brother wreaks on the hold.

Nothing at all says he is uninvolved with the corruption of his family, just that he is the is the more political guy in the family, while his brother runs the mining part.

 

Furthermore, if you kill Maddonach in Chidna mine, Thongvor even says "I hear from my brother you have done our family a service", showing he was fully aware of what was going on in the mine, and knew that killing Madonach helped his brother and him because of how Madonach was going crazy.

 

You're wrong in every single way. The wife of Thonar Silver-Blood, Betrid as well as the man himself fully and freely admit that Thonar handles nearly all the managerial work and is the sole leash holder for Madanach. "I hear from my brother you have done our family a service." is extremely vague, and sounds exactly like what you would tell a brother who is uninvolved in the "family business" and is in no way a serious indication that Thongvor is privy to all the details.

 

And why not Jarl Elisif herself, a pampered brat who knows even less of ruling than Laila and Igmund and is a willing puppet for her foreign Imperial masters, her only real act of governance being the banning of a harmless play.

A play that is in bad taste considering it involving the burning of a King, and the high king was just killed.

 

So, I suppose we should ban South Park, the Opie & Anthony Show and place gag orders on every 9/11 truther because their writing is in bad taste and might offend people?

[Lachdonin]

Elisif, one has to remember, was not raised to be a Jarl. Her murdered husband was. We know nothing of Elisif's history before marrying Torygg, but considering the Jarls present at the start of the game are the hereditery rules, and their replacements are all community leaders, Elisif of course stands out as inefectual because she clearly has no background in either, she's done remarkably well in the possition. You also cannot hold her against the Imperial equation, because Ulfric allows her to maintain her throne, meaning the Stormcloaks are instantly subjected to the same failing.

 

You also have yet to prove, at all, that her so called 'foreign Imperial masters' are bad. Several Jarls clearly state that Skyrim is dependant on the food traded from Cyrodiil, and the constant market for their Iron goods. The loss of the Empire trade would cripple Skyrim's economy, leaving its population starving and poor.

 

a lot of the instant hate for the Empire comes from this moronic, so called 'modern' thinking that Empires are inherently bad. They aren't. An Empire is a system of power relationships, forcing cooperation between otherwise competing parties. Empires have ALWAYS been shown to be more powerful than any of their individual components.

 

Finally, there is only one remotely competant Jarl in Skyrim. Balgruf. The rest are perfect representations of why hereditery descent rulership doesn't work, even in fuedal systems. Similar problems were manifest in the cities in Oblivion, while the Constitutional-Monarchy style meritocracy (the Ruby Throne may be hereditery, but the Elder Council is a collection of those who are the best at governing, and the Legion is led by the competant, rather than the rich and infuential) of the Empire is an infinately superior system. It is something of a pitty, then, that the Empire opts to leave native systems of leadership in place in their provences.

 

As for South Park and such... First, i think they are absolutely moronic programs lacking any tact or social depth, and should be banned simply on merit of the fact that they make people stupid. At the same time, the 9/11 'truther' movement has absolutely squat for evidence, and still gets to peddle its lunacy whereever it pleases. I think we would be much better off as a society if they both went the way of the dodo. In fact, i fully suport censorship if it's being done to prevent those with NO facts from passing off their garbage as truth.

[Kayyyleb]

As for South Park and such... First, i think they are absolutely moronic programs lacking any tact or social depth, and should be banned simply on merit of the fact that they make people stupid. At the same time, the 9/11 'truther' movement has absolutely squat for evidence, and still gets to peddle its lunacy whereever it pleases. I think we would be much better off as a society if they both went the way of the dodo. In fact, i fully suport censorship if it's being done to prevent those with NO facts from passing off their garbage as truth.

Dude wtf does that have to do with Skyrim? Lets not derail the thread so you can talk about banning everything you dislike, ok? I rather like the Imperial/Stormcloak debate and would like it to stay on topic.

[Lachdonin]

As for South Park and such... First, i think they are absolutely moronic programs lacking any tact or social depth, and should be banned simply on merit of the fact that they make people stupid. At the same time, the 9/11 'truther' movement has absolutely squat for evidence, and still gets to peddle its lunacy whereever it pleases. I think we would be much better off as a society if they both went the way of the dodo. In fact, i fully suport censorship if it's being done to prevent those with NO facts from passing off their garbage as truth.

Dude wtf does that have to do with Skyrim? Lets not derail the thread so you can talk about banning everything you dislike, ok? I rather like the Imperial/Stormcloak debate and would like it to stay on topic.

 

It was in direct response to the previous statement. The censorship of sensitive, offensive or revolutionary material is, in my mind, perfectly acceptable, so long as it is done in a manner which supports the facts. In the case of the Burning of King Olaf festival, Elisif bans it because it is about the ceremonial execution and mutilation of a king. When presented with information indicating that the true meaning is about the punishment of those illegitimately claiming rulership, however, she reverses her ban. The censorship in this case is done in a manner which supports the facts presented, and is thus, in my mind, perfectly acceptable. Whats more (and this is where South Park fails... HORRIBLY) the festival represents its meaning through subtle reinforcement and artistic tact, rather than blatant force.

[fraquar]

Lachdonin, the whole problem with Censorship is that the one doing the Censoring is supposed to know EXACTLY what they are censoring and why. Elisif doesn't even know what the Festival of King Torygg is really about, yet she censors it anyway - because she doesn't feel it's in "good taste".

 

In fact, Elisif doesn't know much of anything really. Not the kind of person that should be given any censorship powers.

[Lachdonin]

Lachdonin, the whole problem with Censorship is that the one doing the Censoring is supposed to know EXACTLY what they are censoring and why. Elisif doesn't even know what the Festival of King Torygg is really about, yet she censors it anyway - because she doesn't feel it's in "good taste".

 

In fact, Elisif doesn't know much of anything really. Not the kind of person that should be given any censorship powers.

 

The assumption that someone knows everything about something is absurd. There are always specifics to learn. Elisif, as a leader, made a decision based on the information at hand, information even the 'specialists' at the Bards College didn't dispute. Their problem with the censorship came from the fact that it broke tradition, not any complaint against Elisif's reasons. The mark of Elisif's comparitive competance (when considered against... well... every other Jarl) is that, when presented with more information, she reverses her decision.

 

You should also consider Elisif's reaction during the discussion about dissapearances from Dragons Bridge. She obviously genuinely cares about the welfare of those in her hold, otherwise she wouldn't have emediatey decided to send a small army to protect the settlement. Falk quickly corrects her, even if in reality her initial reaction was probably the better one. Regardless, what she may lack in experience she mroe than makes up for in compassion and enthusiasm.

 

As for the issue of Jarls being limited in their knowlege (and this applies to all Jarls, regardless of their alegience) that is one of the evils of the system we see in Skyrim. They depend almost entirely on advisors in their court to inform them of the relavent information, making them highly suceptable to manipulation and outside interferance. Markarth and Riften are perfect (almost comically blatant) examples of this. The Jarls are very rarely qualified to do ANYTHING except fight or sign paperwork, and all the real work is done by their stewards, court mages and Thanes.

[Kayyyleb]

Censorship is a violation of freedom of speech and has no place in a society that wants to call itself "free". There is no exception to this rule. You either have one or the other. Freedom of speech is by necessity the right to say things that are unpopular.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Always remember that when the Imperial City was sacked it was Redguards and Nords who marched to take it back, not Imperials. It was the Redguard and Nord Legions that left their home to save the Empire. They left their lands in the hands of militias ( the Al'kir in Hammerfell and the Stormcloaks in Skyrim ) to come to a land that wasn't technically their own to save a city that they weren't really welcome in ( Anyone else remember the way that Redguards and Nords were treated in Cyrodil in Oblivion? I sure do ). So what thanks did they get?

 

1) The Emperor tried to give half of Hammerfell to the Thalmor, the Redguards said f*** off, seceded, fought another five years, and beat the Thalmor

2) The Emperor gave the Thalmor the right to Police the Empire ( especially Skyrim ) hauling off his subjects without appeal to Imperial Law

3) The Emperor banned the worship of the Founder of the Empire, and a Nord to boot.

 

So essentially he was saved by two groups of people, who he immediately turned on when things got a little rough.

 

The Mede's are a pathetic imitation of the greatness that the Septim's used to be. The Empire is dead, whether you side with the Imperials or the Stormcloaks, the Thalmor one the second that the Emperor turned his back on his subjects. What point is the Empire if it can't protect its people, so people can side with the Imperials if they want, they can delude themselves into thinking that the Imperials can defeat the Thalmor if everyone just sticks together.

 

Reality is that they can't. Not because they don't have the men, or the strategy, they don't have the will. They didn't have the will to tell the Thalmor to go blow it out their royal elven assholes, and they never will, not while the Mede's are in charge, and essentially sink the Empire itself into another civil war ( like the one that brought the Mede's to power in the first place ) which would suit me just fine honestly.

 

The Redguards defeated the Thalmor by themselves, Skyrim could too, they both have done so before while fighting -for- the Empire, I don't see why they couldn't while fighting for themselves. Hell they could even create a military alliance to take on the Thalmor till they were destroyed, wouldn't hurt anything for them to team up for a bit, since between the two of them they're more than powerful enough so long as Cyrodil isn't holding them back and taking all their best warriors to use defending places other than Skyrim and Hammerfell.

 

 

The question really comes down to whether or not that Skyrim needs the Empire. It doesn't at the end, that's shown clearly when you play through both campaigns. Only the Stormcloak one shows the Thalmor being driven out of Skyrim ( to one degree or another, it's shown most prominently if you take the middle path and attend the peace treaty scene in which you get bonus to Stormcloak faction just for making the Thalmor delegate leave the room ). The Empire on the other hand needs Skyrim, and badly. A bloody nasty war was fought with the Thalmor, one which the Empire more or less lost, and would have lost worse ( as I've pointed out ) without Nordic and Redguard Legions. Yet the Empire is willing to fight another nasty bloody war in Skyrim, against what it claims are it's own people, and this time it's a war of aggression.

 

Skyrim didn't demand anything really out of the Empire, no massive insult the way the Thalmor did, albeit from an Imperial point of view they need Skyrim so couldn't just let them secede, but no attempt was ever made for a diplomatic solution, yet one was offered to the Thalmor despite monstrous atrocities. The " Emperor had no choice " excuse is so much BS. There is always a choice, fight it out to the bitter end if need be. If TMII had bothered to even consider this option there would be no problems in Skyrim, but he cared more about his own personal power than he did about his own subjects, especially in Skyrim and Hammerfell. If he had bothered to summon the courage to say " No, we will never surrender " in a Churchillian fashion

 

" Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old. "

 

The Thalmor are easily as evil as the Nazi's and Britain easily as weakened as the Empire, but the Empire could have fought on. " We shall never surrender " should have been the rallying cry, and yet despite the so called " enormous losses " that were suffered in the Great War, he's decided to send an entire legion to quell the Rebellion in Skyrim. This would be the equivalent of England instead of " We shall Never Surrender " looking at Hitler and going " All right, let's truce, and btw we'll give up all our Imperial Possessions, oh and we'll forbid the speaking of Scottish or Irish Gallic, the Wearing of Kilts, any name that marks a particular clan in Scotland or Ireland, the playing of bagpipes, the Highland Games, and the Scottish Presbyterian Church and forbid Catholicism in Ireland. " and then expect Scotland and Ireland not to rebel. On top of that then send the British Army to Occupy Scotland and Ireland, and send the SS to make sure anyone who practiced Catholicism or Scottish Presbyterianism was hauled away to a work camp never to be seen again by their family or friends.

 

If you think all of the above makes any sense at all, then by all means go with the Imperials. I mean Churchill represented the height of British Imperial Standards which at that time had long past, but if a Government in the UK that he did not head had done that, the British Empire would have fallen apart quickly, despite having good men amongst the English populace. What's dead is dead, and Britain was as easily in as bad a spot as the Empire ( maybe worse ) at the time Churchill gave that speech. They had just evacuated Dunkirk, leaving behind most of their tanks and artillary, the Luftwaffe was bombing them daily. By all measurable reason Hitler was on the verge of invading the Island proper ( the fact he didn't isn't because he was unable, he just decided not to. Historians consider this one of his greatest historical blunders, right up there with the Invasion of Greece and the Declaration of war on the United States after Pearl Harbor. For those who didn't know Germany declared war on us after we declared war on Japan. They didn't have to, were under no treaty obligation too ( their treaty with Japan was mutual defense, the Japanese were the aggressors, Germany could have said " You started it, we've got our own problems, ever heard of Russia? We're smack dab in the middle of invading the largest country in the world ", but they did anyway )

 

At that point the Scottish would have embraced a man who wore people's faces as a hat if that person could defeat the British Army and throw the SS out of Scotland, and Ulfric isn't nearly that. So I say again, Stormcloaks,

 

 

As far as your assertion of 20 legions go, this is not the case, not anymore, and can be found in the wiki's floating around the net. In the days of Uriel Septim there were indeed 20 Legions, 8 from Skyrim, 6 from Hammerfell, and 6 from Cyrodil the rest made up of other parts of the Empire, as well as auxiliaries made up of quasi-indepent parts of the Empire such as Valenwood and Morrowind. The total Strength of the Empire at that time could be counted at about 25 legions in total strength, 20 of which were armed in the Imperial Style, 2 Armies from Valenwood, and 3 Armies, one for each of the Major Houses, from Morrowind, that fought in the Mer style of fighting. Magic, Arrows, and One-handed swords. It's also hinted that Cavalry Auxiliaries were available from many places in the Empire however it's not specific.

 

At the time of the Great War that number had been reduced to 12, 4 from Cyrodil, 4 from Skyrim, 4 from Hammerfell. Numbered from I to XII in that order. 1-4 being from Cyrodil, 4-8 from Skyrim 8-12 from Hammerfell.

 

During the Great War the Cyrodil Legions were decimated, the 3rd Legion was completely wiped out at the Imperial City, and I mean a total loss. The 4th was pinned down at Anvil, and the 1st and 2nd Broke the ring with TMII. The 4th through 8th Legions marched south from Skyrim, leaving behind the Stormcloaks to defend Skyrim; the 8-12 left Hammerfell leaving the Crowns and their Al'kir warriors to defend Hammerfell and surrounded the Imperial City from the North, East, and West. TMII attacked the city with the 1st and 2nd Legions, took the walls and slaughtered the Thalmor Army. So that's where we find ourselves today. Now let’s talk about losses.

 

The 8th through 12th Legions no longer exist. When TMII threw Hammerfell to the wolves, those legions mutinied and returned home to fight another 5 years and successfully defeat the Thalmor, throwing them out of Hammerfell. The 5th - 8th Legions lost half their strength when half of all Nords deserted to follow Ulfric's standard (this is listed too, the Stormcloaks aren't just a militia anymore, they've been reinforced by professional fighters, former members of the Skyrim Legions. So what does that leave the Empire.

 

The 3rd Legion was utterly destroyed, and likely hasn't been reformed as anything like the fighting force it was, at best it's a totally green unit that has seen little if any combat. The 1st and 2nd between the breakthrough and the recapture of the Imperial City could be counted on to field perhaps 50% strength, if that. The 4th Legion is more or less intact, but remains the only completely Cyrodillian Legion left to the Empire to defend the Imperial City. The 5th and 6th Skyrim Legions are likely a combination of those Nords who stayed loyal, and probably came from any of the 4 Skyrim Legions that remained, reforming the 4 Legions into 2. Of those the 5th is most likely staying in Cyrodil with the 4th to Reinforce defenses around the Imperial City. Leaving the 6th as the only Nord Legion left to the Empire that's in anyway intact.

 

The Dunmer Houses are nearly Obliterated, don't expect help from there. Valenwood is in the Hands of the Thalmor, don't expect help from there. The Khajiit Kingdoms are in the Hands of the Thalmor. High Reach and Orisimmer are cut off by Land with Skyrim on One side and Hammerfell on the other, and the Thalmor already have bases there, as they were welcomed by the Half Elven Breton's that inhabit the area. High Rock is Imperial on a map only.

 

Essentially if you combined the 1st and 2nd into an Entire Legion, you'd only have 4 Real Legions Left. The combined First and Second, the 4th, the 5th and the 6th. The fact that the 6th is in Skyrim is basically because that's the only unit that could be spared. Even if the 3rd had been reformed and the First and Second Remained. You'd still only have a total of 6 Legions, 2 of which are half new recruits, one of which is Entirely new recruits. And the Thalmor ready to pounce. The 6th is there because simply, that's all that can be spared. All of this is recorded as canon.

 

 

 

At least Ulfric has the guts to fight for his country, to the end if need be.

 

That's the point, if it's worth fighting for it's worth fighting for to the end, and Ulfric represents that, not TMII, not Tullius, and Certainly not The Empire.

 

That's just how the facts fall down, and the player can make their choice about who the better leader is, Ulfric or TMII, and which leader is most likely to protect the most people and drive the Thalmor from their lands. TMII has already let the people down once, and once is too many. It is my opinion, based on facts, that the Empire couldn't withstand a full Thalmor attack even if they win in Skyrim, but anything is possible I guess. It is also my opinion that the success that Hammerfell and the Redguards achieved against the Thalmor could be repeated in Skyrim, and I find it much more likely than any attempt the Empire could make at defeating them. I can think of no way in which Skyrim would be better off with the Empire, and I can think of plenty of ways that it couldn't.

 

 

 

Try me on for size.

Edited February 10, 2013 by Stormcloak117