Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LithiumPower]

Point is that Stormcloaks are fools (Skyrim would be instantly overrun by the AD) and Imperial Leigon is totally incapable of standing up against the AD, or in fact even a Rebellion in their own territory, thus the greater opinion would be that the Imperial Leigon has lost their relevance in current day climate, perhaps a new power aught to take the reins? (New Era?)

 

Skyrim is not in danger of being run over by the A.D. I'm afraid that's either imperial propaganda or imperial delusion. It is deeply ironic how easily misremembered are the events of the Great War. The empire wasn't about to be wiped out. The empire did not lose the war. The Empire was not coerced by overwhelming force into signing the WGC.

 

The AD intended to take Hammerfell and invaded, and then advanced on Cyrodiil as a diversion. They found the legion so complacent that the focus of the mission switched mid-campaign as city after city fell. The AD was able to march right up to Imperial City and sack it. The emperor had to flee. Then they rallied, bolstered by troops from Skyrim and some from Hammerfell, Titus Mede II sought to retake the city and the Battle of Red Ring was fought and...won.

 

There was a wipe-out. The entire Thalmor army was slaughtered. Annihilated. General Naarifin was left hanging from the White Gold tower for weeks! They were defeated so soundly that they could not continue in Hammerfell and eventually had to pull out completely.

 

Despite this resounding victory, the imperial losses were staggering. Cyrodiil countryside was ravaged. We don't know if the Thalmor had a 'scorched earth' strategy but let's assume they did. So despite the fact that the great looming evil was destroyed and an immediate crisis averted - Titus Mede II lost the appetite for war and instead of pressing his advantage, surrendered to the terms his just defeated enemy had given as an ultimatum 5 years before. He sought a treaty, handing over the advantage won with such difficulty freely and without consulting the Jarls of Skyrim (according to Balgruuf) or Hammerfell, throwing both provinces under the bus to havethe assurance that Cyrodiil Empire wouldn't be attacked again.

 

The idea that the Aldmeri Dominion is only kept out of Skyrim because of the legion is patently false. The AD are not interested in Skyrim's land or crops or silver or what have you - they had one stated objective that of eradicating the worship of Talos the false god and despite using Skyrim and Hammerfell troops to achieve victory in battle, Titus Mede handed it to them.

 

Source

 

 

@Kayyyleb

 

Correct. Another example. Well, after all they're the lesser races, you know. Not like Orcs and Snow-Elves lived in Skyrim first. Nords came from Atmora but *somehow* they also "originally came from" Skyrim.

 

And then, if you're not a Stormcloak, then you're also not a true son/daughter of Skyrim.

 

Yep. It all makes sense now. Good talk. :biggrin:

I Think the point Nords are making when they say they are from Atamora but originally from Skyrim is that while they hold their roots in Atamora, they also hold spiritual roots in Skyrim as the time period they have spent there has infact ceeded that of their memory as to replace, in their minds, the true hub of their axiomatal existance

 

There are also several texts (the Adabal-a, Frontier Conquest, Before the Ages of Man, Nu Mantia Intercepts) which suggest that the nords actually did originate in Tamriel as did all the other races and thereafter immigrated to Atmora in prehistoric times. The fact that the racially similar Nedic people are recorded to have been settled in Cyrodiil thousands of years before Ysgramor's famous migration also corroborates this.

[Kayyyleb]

 

Point is that Stormcloaks are fools (Skyrim would be instantly overrun by the AD) and Imperial Leigon is totally incapable of standing up against the AD, or in fact even a Rebellion in their own territory, thus the greater opinion would be that the Imperial Leigon has lost their relevance in current day climate, perhaps a new power aught to take the reins? (New Era?)

 

Wishful thinking.

 

Hitler was meant to instantly overrun Russia. Epic fail.

 

And Hitler had access to modern technologies, allowing him to utilise modern tactics, and didn't have to cross steep and narrow mountain passes to enter the USSR.

One can easily say Hitler was meant to overrun Poland, Czechoslovakia, or France and he most certainly did that. You're cherrypicking the one country that fits your argument.

[LithiumPower]

 

 

Point is that Stormcloaks are fools (Skyrim would be instantly overrun by the AD) and Imperial Leigon is totally incapable of standing up against the AD, or in fact even a Rebellion in their own territory, thus the greater opinion would be that the Imperial Leigon has lost their relevance in current day climate, perhaps a new power aught to take the reins? (New Era?)

 

Wishful thinking.

 

Hitler was meant to instantly overrun Russia. Epic fail.

 

And Hitler had access to modern technologies, allowing him to utilise modern tactics, and didn't have to cross steep and narrow mountain passes to enter the USSR.

One can easily say Hitler was meant to overrun Poland, Czechoslovakia, or France and he most certainly did that. You're cherrypicking the one country that fits your argument.

The terrain and natural defences of Skyrim are analogous to Russia, France, Poland, Czechoslovakia are not. How are the Thalmor supposed to enter Skyrim? From the north, across the Sea of Ghosts when Alinor is on the other side of Tamriel? The Sea of Ghosts is an arctic sea, uncharted and freezing - riddled with icebergs. The entire coastal route beset with unfriendlies. The Aldmeri Dominion have no experience navigating these treacherous waters - they are a mediterranean/sub-tropical people. Will they then try the from the South, through Cyrodiil? If they couldn't hold on to the Imperial City 30 years ago, how are they going to maintain supply lines and logistics to mount an invasion of Skyrim over the Jerall Mountains, which are akin to the Himalayas, i.e towering, snow clad, iced over, glacier choked - these aren't cute little ski slopes.

[StormHammer81]

The AD would be insane to attack Skyrim. It would be suicide. They also met a similar fate trying to invade Hammerfell, it just won't work. With the ruggid terrain and all, they would pay dearly for any ground they take and there would also be too many places for pockets of resistance fighters to raise hell. Edited February 22, 2013 by StormHammer81

[sajuukkhar9000]

The terrain and natural defences of Skyrim are analogous to Russia, France, Poland, Czechoslovakia are not. How are the Thalmor supposed to enter Skyrim? From the north, across the Sea of Ghosts when Alinor is on the other side of Tamriel? The Sea of Ghosts is an arctic sea, uncharted and freezing - riddled with icebergs. The entire coastal route beset with unfriendlies. The Aldmeri Dominion have no experience navigating these treacherous waters - they are a mediterranean/sub-tropical people. Will they then try the from the South, through Cyrodiil? If they couldn't hold on to the Imperial City 30 years ago, how are they going to maintain supply lines and logistics to mount an invasion of Skyrim over the Jerall Mountains, which are akin to the Himalayas, i.e towering, snow clad, iced over, glacier choked - these aren't cute little ski slopes.

Firstly, to act like the nation, with the single greatest fleet in all of Tamirel, can't handle a few icebergs is absurd.

 

Secondly, the AD only lost Cyrodiil last time because The Empire had the combined help of the Nords and the Redguards, and if Ulfric wins the civil war, The Empire would have help from neither the second time around. After Cyrodiil falls, the AD would most likely spend a little while getting their s#*! together here, and then march over the many passes that exist between Cyrodiil, and Skyrim.

 

Not to mention that without the food from Cyrodiil, Skyrim would run into food shortage issues. The AD doesn't even have to take them by war, they just have to sit on Cyrodiil and let Skyrim tear itself to pieces over a lack of resources.

[StormHammer81]

@sajuukkhar9000

 

I also must agree with that. The Civil War will put EVERYBODY in a bind financially and socially. This Civil War could not have come at a worse time. I acknowledge there are problems of this nature already, however having a Civil War will make things 10x worse and create a great deal of uncertainty.

 

The aftermath of this will put a FURTHER wedge between Skyrim and Cyrodi, which is what the Elves want.

 

The AD doesn't even have to take them by war, they just have to sit on Cyrodiil and let Skyrim tear itself to pieces over a lack of resources.

 

This. This is their "final solution". A house divided cannot stand. Only thing I would like to add is, Cyrodil will tear itself to pieces without resources from Skrim too.

 

The Elves will not go after Skyrim first, they'll just walk into Cyrodil. Whoever controls Cyrodil, rules Tamriel. This is why I fight for the Empire. Other than of course, it still being Talos's Empire. It's nonsense for Legions and Stormcloaks to be killing each other. And *every* province the Empire has lost so far has been directly related to Thalmor influence, whether that be direct or indirect.

 

Which indicates there is a high probability that the Thalmor are behind the war in Skyrim as well, which in turn further indicates that... there is a "lie" somewhere in Ulfric's cause. Which is why the Dossier is important, because it helps indicate that "something" is/was/ between Ulfric/Stormcloaks and Thalmor. Thalmor even admit, they're fueling Ulfric's cause. And Ulfric at very least, knows they're playing him. However, there is also something in that Dossier which talks about how Thalmor were in contact with Ulfric prior to Markarth.

 

No need to hash thru that anymore, however I sat around a kitchen table last night just thinking about that alone and you know, I realized the Empire still does alot of good and the Empire is the reason why Hammerfell, Skyrim and Cyrodil are "prospering". Perhaps not the only reason I'm sure, however it is the main reason. There is so much more at stake in this scenario than just the WGC.

 

Feel free to try and dispute this all you like, but all of this is lore and game accurate. Although there is also some speculation in this post as well.

Edited February 22, 2013 by StormHammer81

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Skyrim survived by itself for millennia. It has a history of being very independent rather then dependent like people think. I'm not saying it will be without hardships but Skyrim can do it. In the long run it will be hard but possible.

The AD cant invade properly through the Jerrall mountains. The only pass is pale pass which is in Falkreath Hold. Easily defensible. The Shores of Skyrim are not landing friendly. If you have seen them then you'll know that the Nords who are used to fighting in the mud and ice and snow where as the elves are not. If they do gain some land the Nords will be constantly harassing them with their guerrilla tactics which will lower the AD's army's moral and exhaust them. Eventually forcing them to either want to give up or be defeated.

Also if the AD does take pale pass, they have the Empire to deal with and the Nords know pale pass very well and once again be harassing them all day every day. Then the AD has to secure their supply line which the Nords can cut off my causing and avalanche or just using, once again, guerrilla tactics. This is assuming the Ad does attack.

If the Nords attack, well I wouldnt be able to describe the terrain of Alinor. But seeing as how well they did against them in the Great war well, I can safely say they stand a good chance. Not superbly outstanding but a good chance at that.

The Nords also have this "Victory or death" mortality where as I have never heard of the case where the elves do.

Ulfric will fight the AD. He claims that himself.

Within the dossier, yes the elves support the civil war, but they fear a Stormcloak victory. They dont want a non-civil war Skyrim. They want it to last as long as possible. They also fear an Imperial victory.

They may have been giving indirect aid to the Stormcloaks but I see that as "Use your enemies resources rather than your own. In order to ensure yours will last as long as possible. Its better to use 1 of his rather than 1 of mine" A little like Art of War.

Edited February 22, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[RighthandofSithis]

 

The terrain and natural defences of Skyrim are analogous to Russia, France, Poland, Czechoslovakia are not. How are the Thalmor supposed to enter Skyrim? From the north, across the Sea of Ghosts when Alinor is on the other side of Tamriel? The Sea of Ghosts is an arctic sea, uncharted and freezing - riddled with icebergs. The entire coastal route beset with unfriendlies. The Aldmeri Dominion have no experience navigating these treacherous waters - they are a mediterranean/sub-tropical people. Will they then try the from the South, through Cyrodiil? If they couldn't hold on to the Imperial City 30 years ago, how are they going to maintain supply lines and logistics to mount an invasion of Skyrim over the Jerall Mountains, which are akin to the Himalayas, i.e towering, snow clad, iced over, glacier choked - these aren't cute little ski slopes.

Firstly, to act like the nation, with the single greatest fleet in all of Tamirel, can't handle a few icebergs is absurd.

 

Secondly, the AD only lost Cyrodiil last time because The Empire had the combined help of the Nords and the Redguards, and if Ulfric wins the civil war, The Empire would have help from neither the second time around. After Cyrodiil falls, the AD would most likely spend a little while getting their s#*! together here, and then march over the many passes that exist between Cyrodiil, and Skyrim.

 

Not to mention that without the food from Cyrodiil, Skyrim would run into food shortage issues. The AD doesn't even have to take them by war, they just have to sit on Cyrodiil and let Skyrim tear itself to pieces over a lack of resources.

 

Ahh, the naval argument with you again. This may go nowhere.

 

So, you know my argument is a naval invasion could not hold logistically. 1. it would stretch the supply lines thin, and waste the strength of the navy. 2. Over time (several years), Pirates will find ways of targeting individual supply ships (like, I think Cortex was so sure in the superiority of his Spanish Navy, and then the Aztecs found ways to destroy them). And even if 1 pirate attack was a failure, well, it would still slowly takes its toll.

 

And on the issue of Cyrodiil, I find it hard to believe that ALL of it will fall to the dominion. Leyawiin, Bravil and Perhaps Skingrad may, yes. However, tell me that Chorrol, Bruma and Cheydinhal will not find themselves in Skyrim's/Hammerfell's spheres of influence. Geographically, we can see that the next great war would be centered mostly around the cities of Anvil and Kvatch (on land, that is), and in the South-Western Oceans (particularly around Stirk, and Stros M'kai).

 

And still, the Rift, as I have stated several times, is a fertile forest. With some investment in that area, and the province will be able to feed itself. And if not, how was it that Skyrim was so strong during the Interregnum if it had no means of subsistence?

[MidbossVyers]

 

@sajuukkhar9000

 

I also must agree with that. The Civil War will put EVERYBODY in a bind financially and socially. This Civil War could not have come at a worse time. I acknowledge there are problems of this nature already, however having a Civil War will make things 10x worse and create a great deal of uncertainty.

 

The aftermath of this will put a FURTHER wedge between Skyrim and Cyrodi, which is what the Elves want.

 

 

The AD doesn't even have to take them by war, they just have to sit on Cyrodiil and let Skyrim tear itself to pieces over a lack of resources.

 

This. This is their "final solution". A house divided cannot stand. Only thing I would like to add is, Cyrodil will tear itself to pieces without resources from Skrim too.

 

The Elves will not go after Skyrim first, they'll just walk into Cyrodil. Whoever controls Cyrodil, rules Tamriel. This is why I fight for the Empire. Other than of course, it still being Talos's Empire. It's nonsense for Legions and Stormcloaks to be killing each other. And *every* province the Empire has lost so far has been directly related to Thalmor influence, whether that be direct or indirect.

 

Which indicates there is a high probability that the Thalmor are behind the war in Skyrim as well, which in turn further indicates that... there is a "lie" somewhere in Ulfric's cause. Which is why the Dossier is important, because it helps indicate that "something" is/was/ between Ulfric/Stormcloaks and Thalmor. Thalmor even admit, they're fueling Ulfric's cause. And Ulfric at very least, knows they're playing him. However, there is also something in that Dossier which talks about how Thalmor were in contact with Ulfric prior to Markarth.

 

No need to hash thru that anymore, however I sat around a kitchen table last night just thinking about that alone and you know, I realized the Empire still does alot of good and the Empire is the reason why Hammerfell, Skyrim and Cyrodil are "prospering". Perhaps not the only reason I'm sure, however it is the main reason. There is so much more at stake in this scenario than just the WGC.

 

Feel free to try and dispute this all you like, but all of this is lore and game accurate. Although there is also some speculation in this post as well.

Hm? Cyrus gutting Richton like a fish somehow allowed for a permanent peaceful negotiation between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. Why can't the same thing happened with Skyrim if you behead Tullius? Also, for everyone who keeps claiming so, the current Empire, during the events of Skyrim, IS NOT THE EMPIRE OF TALOS; currently, it is the Mede Empire! I know that most of you come from democratic backgrounds where the country stays the same even when the leader changes for 4 years, but in terms of monarchies, once a particular family line (the Septims) dies out, so does the country. There have been many causes in ancient Chinese history when noblemen commited suicide once a dynasty ended because they did not want to live in "foreign, enemy" country. Currently, the Empire of Cyrodiil is NOT the Empire of Tiber Septim.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

@sajuukkhar9000

 

I also must agree with that. The Civil War will put EVERYBODY in a bind financially and socially. This Civil War could not have come at a worse time. I acknowledge there are problems of this nature already, however having a Civil War will make things 10x worse and create a great deal of uncertainty.

 

The aftermath of this will put a FURTHER wedge between Skyrim and Cyrodi, which is what the Elves want.

 

 

The AD doesn't even have to take them by war, they just have to sit on Cyrodiil and let Skyrim tear itself to pieces over a lack of resources.

 

This. This is their "final solution". A house divided cannot stand. Only thing I would like to add is, Cyrodil will tear itself to pieces without resources from Skrim too.

 

The Elves will not go after Skyrim first, they'll just walk into Cyrodil. Whoever controls Cyrodil, rules Tamriel. This is why I fight for the Empire. Other than of course, it still being Talos's Empire. It's nonsense for Legions and Stormcloaks to be killing each other. And *every* province the Empire has lost so far has been directly related to Thalmor influence, whether that be direct or indirect.

 

Which indicates there is a high probability that the Thalmor are behind the war in Skyrim as well, which in turn further indicates that... there is a "lie" somewhere in Ulfric's cause. Which is why the Dossier is important, because it helps indicate that "something" is/was/ between Ulfric/Stormcloaks and Thalmor. Thalmor even admit, they're fueling Ulfric's cause. And Ulfric at very least, knows they're playing him. However, there is also something in that Dossier which talks about how Thalmor were in contact with Ulfric prior to Markarth.

 

No need to hash thru that anymore, however I sat around a kitchen table last night just thinking about that alone and you know, I realized the Empire still does alot of good and the Empire is the reason why Hammerfell, Skyrim and Cyrodil are "prospering". Perhaps not the only reason I'm sure, however it is the main reason. There is so much more at stake in this scenario than just the WGC.

 

Feel free to try and dispute this all you like, but all of this is lore and game accurate. Although there is also some speculation in this post as well.

Hm? Cyrus gutting Richton like a fish somehow allowed for a permanent peaceful negotiation between Hammerfell and Cyrodiil. Why can't the same thing happened with Skyrim if you behead Tullius? Also, for everyone who keeps claiming so, the current Empire, during the events of Skyrim, IS NOT THE EMPIRE OF TALOS; currently, it is the Mede Empire! I know that most of you come from democratic backgrounds where the country stays the same even when the leader changes for 4 years, but in terms of monarchies, once a particular family line (the Septims) dies out, so does the country. There have been many causes in ancient Chinese history when noblemen commited suicide once a dynasty ended because they did not want to live in "foreign, enemy" country. Currently, the Empire of Cyrodiil is NOT the Empire of Tiber Septim.

 

It is stated by a few Imperials in game that the Empire is still Septim's Empire (like Rikke).