Imperial VS Stormcloak

[StormHammer81]

@Sithis

 

Correct, a naval invasion would be suicide and very much unsustainable. It's called Hammerfell. Annnd one reason why the AD wanted Hammerfell so bad was to try and STOP the pirate harassment against AD shipping/ports.

 

Tat said, during the Great War, the AD conquered ALL of Cyrodil except for Bruma. Every other city fell, although not at first. After WGC and annhilation of AD primary army + reinforcements, Cyrodil was returned to the Empire.

Edited February 22, 2013 by StormHammer81

[MidbossVyers]

Well, then those are empty words, kind of like those corporations who still bear the family name of its original founder, even though no one from that family works there anymore. Also, the Stormcloaks winning the Civil War will not necessarily sever ties with the Empire; it will just give them better bargaining chips. Beside the Great War, there were many Redguards who fought in the Legion, but I'm sure at least some of them still idolized Cyrus as a hero of freedom.

[screendrop]

Bethesda makes it a point that your character never actually gains power. Your character will never take the throne as people seem to think.

 

Correction of earlier, Rangarok not Ragnorook. Sorry I was tired.

 

If the Ad could take Tamriel so easily then why havent they? If the capability is there then why waste time and allow for the thing you hate to exist even longer than need be.

 

The AD cant just simply steam roll over Skyrim like people seem to think. After all it was the Nords that destroyed the AD's army in Cyrodiil easily and with minimal losses.

I dont really support that idea in that, the Thalmor aren't going to risk unnecessary loss of resources and person for very little gain. I feel that it is their goal for integration rather than anhilation as the AD have much more to gain from a unified AD Skyrim rather than a destroyed Skyrim, plus, it has been stated that they are waiting until the Empire have regained control of Skyrim, likeliness is that once either take total control (which never happens in Skyrim) to make action

[RighthandofSithis]

@Sithis

 

Correct, a naval invasion would be suicide and very much unsustainable. It's called Hammerfell. Annnd one reason why the AD wanted Hammerfell so bad was to try and STOP the pirate harassment against AD shipping/ports.

 

Tat said, during the Great War, the AD conquered ALL of Cyrodil except for Bruma. Every other city fell, although not at first. After WGC and annhilation of AD primary army + reinforcements, Cyrodil was returned to the Empire.

 

Yes, the AD did manage to conquor Cyrodiil 30 years ago. What does that have to do with the current day? Other than proving the point that trying the same thing and expecting different results is madness.

 

I find it hard to believe that the Thalmor would manage to hold all of Cyrodiil for very long in the face of pressure from the North and West (a pretty large front, may I add). And still, taking cities so close to Skyrim and Hammerfell would invoke a response from the two, sparking the next Great War in a different manner than i expected (and probably in a worse situation for the Dominion).

 

Red Ring proves that Cyrodiil is placed in probably one of the worst positions for the Thalmor, the center of Tamriel. In Red Ring, at least, the Thalmor had a foothold in the south. In the Next War, they won't have that, they will be surrounded by enemy forces from the north and west (and they can't really retreat east).

 

And if anyone wants to quote Israel, remember, Israel had access to an advanced airforce that played a vital role in its various wars with its arab neighbors.

[StormHammer81]

@Sithis

 

Except this time everything is different. What you're saying will only hold up if the Empire survives and stay unified. Otherwise, all bets are off.

 

We're having to pull our troops from the front lines in order to deal with Ulfric. Assuming the Thalmor are indeed powerful enough to invade I highly doubt the Empire without Skyrim will last for very long.

 

For the Empire to loose Skyrim would be like giving someone a "frontal lobbadomy".

 

Empire only made it last time because of help from Skyrim and now between GW and CW it's even weaker than before. Then again, so is AD. Although AD would be able to bring more to the table than a post Skyrim Empire would.

 

And, AD's infastructure is still in place while Cyrodil is a smoldering ruin - still.

[StormHammer81]

@MidbossVyers

 

If Empire loses CW, then there will be a permanent rift of hatred and hostility between Skyrim and Cyrodil.

 

The Stormcloaks do not believe in Imperialism, in fact in Ulfric's last speech he talks about how he's glad it's broken.

 

They will not work together, that is "empty words".

 

Ysgramor was a king and he was for Skyrim. Talos was an Emperor and he was for Imperialism. Two different ideaologies.

 

WGC is irrelevant to this point.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

But yet again Skyrim doesnt need the Empire which is the point of this debate. This shows that with the current status on Tamriel it is nearly impossible for the dominion alone to take Tamriel like pro-imperials like to claim.

 

Skyrim can and will last on its own. The Empire - may - last on its own. Each province seems to show they dont need the Empire. (Except maybe Highrock, considering its still an imperial province.) Given all the information it really points out the weakness in any pro imperial argument. The Empire lost its purpose of being the ruling faction and protectors of Tamriel when it signed the WGC, that much is a given. You can look at other Empires and claim that this is not their goal but its the goal of the old Septim Empire, which died.

 

Ulfric is a Nord who fights for Skyrim, that much is undeniable. Even if (I dont believe this deep down) he is power hungry or souly ambitious, by putting him in power it frees Skyrim from Imperial grip. Thats what Dengeir (Jarl of Falkreath, however his name is spelled) says in the end. "But he's the devil I know."

 

In order for a new and stronger Empire to be formed we must kill the old one. It's a sad truth.

[RighthandofSithis]

@Sithis

 

Except this time everything is different. What you're saying will only hold up if the Empire survives and stay unified. Otherwise, all bets are off.

 

We're having to pull our troops from the front lines in order to deal with Ulfric. Assuming the Thalmor are indeed powerful enough to invade I highly doubt the Empire without Skyrim will last for very long.

 

For the Empire to loose Skyrim would be like giving someone a "frontal lobbadomy".

 

Empire only made it last time because of help from Skyrim and now between GW and CW it's even weaker than before. Then again, so is AD. Although AD would be able to bring more to the table than a post Skyrim Empire would.

 

And, AD's infastructure is still in place while Cyrodil is a smoldering ruin - still.

Ahh, sorry, you aren't aware of my position.

 

The Empire must die. It is incapable of combating the Thalmor, it is constantly decaying, its economy and most of its infastructure are in ruins, the few provinces it still has are in turmoil. Keeping the Empire alive is a fools errand, as it WILL collapse at one point. so it is best for Skyrim to leave now while it can, and save not only itself from the disaster to come, but also to save High Rock from it.

 

From there, I feel that it is possible (and work on the assumption that this will come into play) that Hammerfell and Skyrim will form an alliance. Hammerfell has had 25 years to recover, and there is no evidence that it has been experiencing internal turmoil like Cyrodiil (in fact, the suggestions are the opposite. the Crowns were in the perfect position to subjugate the Forbears).

 

Not only is this alliance preferred, but it is also possible, as the Redguards and the Nords have a number of cultural and political similarities such as:

 

-Both being warrior cultures and brilliant sailors

-Both Hating the Thalmor

-Both Hating the Empire

-Both sharing a common border

 

This is not only an fan concept, Luah al-Skaven had suggested that an alliance between the two powers had been thrown into the air previously, and that said alliance would have been able to confront both the Empire and the Dominion.

 

Thus my position on the next great war is:

 

http://images.uesp.net/thumb/c/c3/TamrielMap.jpg/800px-TamrielMap.jpg

 

-Cyrodiil will splinter. Individual counties will defect to the closest power to them. Bravil, Leyawiin and Skingrad to the Dominion. Bruma, Chorrol and Cheydinhal to the alliance.

 

-The Cities of Anvil and Kvatch, being close to both powers and an important pressure point on the Dominion, will be focal point for the land theater of the next Great War.

 

-The Dominion will find itself in a compromised position. the redguards would attack this area from the West, while Nordic troops would march from the North to box them in, giving them three choices:

 

*Fight a battle on two fronts

*Retreat to Valenwood

*Retreat to Skingrad

 

-The latter 2 would secure South-Western Cyrodiil to the alliance without any bloodshed. From here, the Alliance was the option to take either Arinthia (giving them a foothold in the Dominion itself), or Skingrad (giving them all of Colovia), or both (giving them the benefits of both, and the weakness of neither)

 

-The First option would define the War (on land), but without knowing more about the armies of both sides, it is impossible to come to a conclusion. A Pyrrhic Victory to one side is a very possible outcome.

Edited February 23, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[StormHammer81]

@Sithis

 

"The Empire must die" Why? Because you want it to? Or because, you disagree with her politics? The only thing which "must" happen is an end to the Civil War. There have been numerous occassions already where the Empire "must" die. I think that's one thing which makes me more and more certain that the Empire still has a chance. Everyone says it "must die". Well, we all "must die" eventually, however,

 

"When a man is convinced he's going to die he will probably find a way to make it happen."

- Guinan

So, I must disagree with you on this one. Although, I agree with most of your other points.

 

I also kinda think you guys are stretching this about this uhh, "Skyrim and Redguard Alliance". I very highly doubt that this would ever happen. Their common ground ends with the Empire and the Dominion. I mean, yeah that's noteworthy however, they historically, have not really gotten along at all. Skyrim is kinda like the dividing line between East and West Tamriel. I highly doubt those two would ever achieve anything significant in the way diplomacy unless it's in the Empire.

Because they've had numerous territory disputes, even today, the Nords don't like em in their country one bit and, most important - OF ALL... Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have a real problem with foreigners and non-Nords. No way they would ever work together.

 

What's more likely now, is Highrock would leave the Empire and get with Hammerfell. That's money in the bank. Just like you were more accurate about the fate of Cyrodil, it would be torn apart. Dominion might try ~ however, just very unlikely they could absorb it all overnight. They would try.

 

Either way, you're going to have a fractured mess. It could work to dissolve the Empire ok? It could work except the Thalmor are waiting at the gates. They're ready to do something according to Ondolomer.

 

And he's saying next time it till be worse than before. I believe him.

[RighthandofSithis]

StormHammer81, on 23 Feb 2013 - 12:49, said:

@Sithis

 

"The Empire must die" Why? Because you want it to? Or because, you disagree with her politics? The only thing which "must" happen is an end to the Civil War. There have been numerous occassions already where the Empire "must" die. I think that's one thing which makes me more and more certain that the Empire still has a chance. Everyone says it "must die". Well, we all "must die" eventually, however,

 

"When a man is convinced he's going to die he will probably find a way to make it happen."

- Guinan

 

So, I must disagree with you on this one. Although, I agree with most of your other points.

 

I also kinda think you guys are stretching this about this uhh, "Skyrim and Redguard Alliance". I very highly doubt that this would ever happen. Their common ground ends with the Empire and the Dominion. I mean, yeah that's noteworthy however, they historically, have not really gotten along at all. Skyrim is kinda like the dividing line between East and West Tamriel. I highly doubt those two would ever achieve anything significant in the way diplomacy unless it's in the Empire.

 

Because they've had numerous territory disputes, even today, the Nords don't like em in their country one bit and, most important - OF ALL... Ulfric and the Stormcloaks have a real problem with foreigners and non-Nords. No way they would ever work together.

 

What's more likely now, is Highrock would leave the Empire and get with Hammerfell. That's money in the bank. Just like you were more accurate about the fate of Cyrodil, it would be torn apart. Dominion might try ~ however, just very unlikely they could absorb it all overnight. They would try.

 

Either way, you're going to have a fractured mess. It could work to dissolve the Empire ok? It could work except the Thalmor are waiting at the gates. They're ready to do something according to Ondolomer.

 

And he's saying next time it till be worse than before. I believe him.

Why then, would one try to save a dying old man to fight a strong, young warrior?

 

The Empire is far to weak. it is on its knees already, willing to either submit entirely to the Thalmor, or die a slow death. If it so much as tries to stand against the thalmor, it will completely collapse, and then where will Tamriel be?

 

Perhaps a sort of analogy. The British Empire survived the Second World War, only to find itself collapsing, and unable to exert its power (the Suez Crisis). Within a few decades, it collapsed, with many of its colonies are now relatively strong in their own right (India, for example, is a potential superpower).

 

And explain why the Redguards and Nords would not unite?

Quote

We (A Hammerfell-Skyrim alliance) could have used them to push the elves right off the continent and formed a new state to combat the empire...

-Lu-ah al-Skaven

 

This comment, from the game itself, gives evidence that such an alliance is not oustiode the realms of possibility. Far more unlikely alliaces have happened (the Ebonheart pact, was between the Nords, Dunmer and Argonians, all ancient enemies). Indeed, in the face of such a task, I say such an alliance is inevitable. Even the USSR and Capitalist West put aside their hatred of one another in the face of annihilation!

 

In fact, the only complication between the Redguards and the Nords in recent history ended over 200 years prior to Skyrim.

 

Quoting Ulfric's so called racism as an obsticle isn't the best argument, as many refute that such attitudes even exist. In fact, by that argument, the Tripartite Pact should never have existed.

 

High Rock probably wouldn't get with anyone, considering that whenever the central power of the Empire collapses, High Rock usually breaks into its feudal state again. And, in fact, High Rock has had more problems with the Redguards than Skyrim ever has.

Edited February 23, 2013 by RighthandofSithis