Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

if Ulfric wasn't doing the Thalmor's job in Skyrim then the Empire would have been able to prevent a gang war between skooma dealers and also prevent corsairs raiding in High Rock.

the only real information is that the DB were heavily targeted. considering how theatrical and dramatic Cicero is, I am not surprised at the bleakness of the picture that he paints

 

Well, if we are questioning Cicero, how about corroboration from various Imperials who fled Cyrodiil, and Imperial Supporters who refuse to comment on these issues (other than stating they exist).

 

-Cammilla Valerius (the great War Ruined everything)

-Valga Vinicia (Cyrodiil is enveloped in violence and chaos)

-Ganna and Gemma Uriel (Came to Skyrim searching for a better future)

-Arcadia (Who moved to Skyrim 20 years ago, 5 years after the great war finished)

 

So, unless we have some strong evidence on the contrary, i think Cicero (who is non partisan, and is able to recognise people based off one liners, kept a detailed journal, and took action so drastic so as to leave Cyrodiil with the Night Mother) is the best authority on the current Cyrodiilic situation.

 

And don't blame Ulfric's revolution. The Empire found itself in a revolutionary situation (as falling Empires do). Its like saying the Russian Empire could have survived, were it not for the events of 1917 (and ignoring the situation russia found itself in, and the sentiment among the Russian people).

[Itachi 92]

I sided with the empire in the civil war...simply because ulfric is a moron

 

he hates the thalmor, yet he helps them by weakening the empire with his rebellion....on top of that if he drives the empire out of skyrim, the thalmor will come knocking.....and if he thinks the conditions of the peace treaty are bad, his hairy ass will soon see what real s*** looks like, once the thalmor control skyrim.......on the other hand the empire is but a shadow of its former self.....the "real" bloodline ended with martin septim during the oblivion crisis and titus mede II is just some random dude ......maybe its time for the septim empire to fall and for a new to rise

 

but I have the feeling that bethesda wanted the player to join the stormcloaks.....seeing as how the game starts and the legion is made look bad etc.

 

anyways just my thoughts on this

Edited April 27, 2013 by Itachi 92

[MightyZ0G]

but I have the feeling that bethesda wanted the player to join the stormcloaks.....seeing as how the game starts and the legion is made look bad etc.

 

anyways just my thoughts on this

 

I think that was what they wanted the player to do in his first playthrough, but then information that is discovered during the game makes them choose Empire for their second playthrough

[RighthandofSithis]

 

but I have the feeling that bethesda wanted the player to join the stormcloaks.....seeing as how the game starts and the legion is made look bad etc.

 

anyways just my thoughts on this

 

I think that was what they wanted the player to do in his first playthrough, but then information that is discovered during the game makes them choose Empire for their second playthrough

 

I think bethesda put their hardest into creating a balenced and realistic struggle, without preference for either side.

[TheLoreSeeker]

 

 

but I have the feeling that bethesda wanted the player to join the stormcloaks.....seeing as how the game starts and the legion is made look bad etc.

 

anyways just my thoughts on this

 

I think that was what they wanted the player to do in his first playthrough, but then information that is discovered during the game makes them choose Empire for their second playthrough

 

I think bethesda put their hardest into creating a balenced and realistic struggle, without preference for either side.

 

Yeah, although they definitely made it out too seem like the Cloaks were the heroes at the beginning and then you slowly begin to realize that they aren't all they're cracked up to be, then you realize that the Imperials aren't all sparkly fairy godmothers either.

[Anska]

I am not so sure, I'd agree that the Stormcloaks are presented as more heroic at the beginning. They are presented as more likeable during the introduction for sure, simply because they don't try to chop your character's head off and Ralof certainly does his best to present the Cloaks in a heroic manner too. However, if you listen to General Tullius and the citizens of Helgen during the execution scene, you can quickly get the impression, that you aren't in such fine company after all, because the whole city considers the Cloaks as a bunch of rebel-scum.

 

Following Ralof and being more inclined to join the Stormcloaks in the beginning for me always was more of a "My enemy's enemy might be my friend" sort of thing than a reasonable decision about which side my character would support.

 

Edit: Apart from that I agree with what you and RighthandofSithis said though.

Edited April 28, 2013 by Anska

[LadyMilla]

I am not so sure, I'd agree that the Stormcloaks are presented as more heroic at the beginning. They are presented as more likeable during the introduction for sure, simply because they don't try to chop your character's head off and Ralof certainly does his best to present the Cloaks in a heroic manner too. However, if you listen to General Tullius and the citizens of Helgen during the execution scene, you can quickly get the impression, that you aren't in such fine company after all, because the whole city considers the Cloaks as a bunch of rebel-scum.

 

 

 

Never for a moment expect objectivity from people cheering at an execution and from representatives of the authority that ordered the execution. No matter if a rebellion is just or not, it always breaks the laws of the regime it opposes. General Tullius represents that regime so he will obviouly do his best to disparage Ulfric and the Stormcloak rebellion.

[MightyZ0G]

-Cammilla Valerius (the great War Ruined everything)

-Valga Vinicia (Cyrodiil is enveloped in violence and chaos)

-Ganna and Gemma Uriel (Came to Skyrim searching for a better future)

-Arcadia (Who moved to Skyrim 20 years ago, 5 years after the great war finished)

 

So, unless we have some strong evidence on the contrary, i think Cicero (who is non partisan, and is able to recognise people based off one liners, kept a detailed journal, and took action so drastic so as to leave Cyrodiil with the Night Mother) is the best authority on the current Cyrodiilic situation.

 

And don't blame Ulfric's revolution. The Empire found itself in a revolutionary situation (as falling Empires do). Its like saying the Russian Empire could have survived, were it not for the events of 1917 (and ignoring the situation russia found itself in, and the sentiment among the Russian people).

 

 

-Cammilla Valerius (the great War Ruined everything)

I think everyone can agree that the Great War ruined everything. that doesn't mean that it has to stay ruined.

 

-Valga Vinicia (Cyrodiil is enveloped in violence and chaos)

only 2 or 3 incidents of violence and chaos are documented and they are a war between drug smugglers and attacks against the Dark Brotherhood (this is an assumption based on "why would anyone go to the trouble of making enemies of a guild of assassins unless the DB are the targets?").

 

-Ganna and Gemma Uriel (Came to Skyrim searching for a better future)

They now mine malachite for a living, unable to afford starting a lumber mill elsewhere. They can be heard constantly arguing about the life they left behind in Cyrodiil.

"Wouldn't even be here if it weren't for my idiot sister."

"I can't believe she dragged me all the way to this snowball. I'd rather be broke in Cyrodiil than broke here."

"If these Nords don't let up soon, I might just make a break for it. At least Cyrodiil is warmer than this."

"Oh, great, another wanderer. Slumming it on your way to Windhelm?"

 

-Arcadia (Who moved to Skyrim 20 years ago, 5 years after the great war finished)

yes, she moved 20 years ago and so she is right up to date on all the news from Cyrodiil.

she says that she is a proud citizen of the Empire and Skyrim IS part of the Empire. she hasn't abandoned it, just moved to a different part.

she also lies to try to make you buy cures and potions you don't need.

 

I can blame Ulfric.

as far as I'm concerned, Ulfric is like a clockwork toy that the Thalmor wound up and set in motion to destabilise Skyrim and the Empire.

the Thalmor are the real villains and Ulfric is their tool.

without him there would be no rebellion.

the people and Jarls of Skyrim could have become independent from the Empire in the same way that Hammerfell did, if they were that upset by the terms of the WGC, but nothing happened for over 20 years until Ulfric (unknowingly working for the Thalmor) stirred it all up. giving the Thalmor the right to enforce the terms of the WGC in Skyrim and cause more unrest among the citizens of the Empire.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

-Cammilla Valerius (the great War Ruined everything)

-Valga Vinicia (Cyrodiil is enveloped in violence and chaos)

-Ganna and Gemma Uriel (Came to Skyrim searching for a better future)

-Arcadia (Who moved to Skyrim 20 years ago, 5 years after the great war finished)

 

So, unless we have some strong evidence on the contrary, i think Cicero (who is non partisan, and is able to recognise people based off one liners, kept a detailed journal, and took action so drastic so as to leave Cyrodiil with the Night Mother) is the best authority on the current Cyrodiilic situation.

 

And don't blame Ulfric's revolution. The Empire found itself in a revolutionary situation (as falling Empires do). Its like saying the Russian Empire could have survived, were it not for the events of 1917 (and ignoring the situation russia found itself in, and the sentiment among the Russian people).

 

 

-Cammilla Valerius (the great War Ruined everything)

I think everyone can agree that the Great War ruined everything. that doesn't mean that it has to stay ruined.

 

-Valga Vinicia (Cyrodiil is enveloped in violence and chaos)

only 2 or 3 incidents of violence and chaos are documented and they are a war between drug smugglers and attacks against the Dark Brotherhood (this is an assumption based on "why would anyone go to the trouble of making enemies of a guild of assassins unless the DB are the targets?").

 

-Ganna and Gemma Uriel (Came to Skyrim searching for a better future)

They now mine malachite for a living, unable to afford starting a lumber mill elsewhere. They can be heard constantly arguing about the life they left behind in Cyrodiil.

"Wouldn't even be here if it weren't for my idiot sister."

"I can't believe she dragged me all the way to this snowball. I'd rather be broke in Cyrodiil than broke here."

"If these Nords don't let up soon, I might just make a break for it. At least Cyrodiil is warmer than this."

"Oh, great, another wanderer. Slumming it on your way to Windhelm?"

 

-Arcadia (Who moved to Skyrim 20 years ago, 5 years after the great war finished)

yes, she moved 20 years ago and so she is right up to date on all the news from Cyrodiil.

she says that she is a proud citizen of the Empire and Skyrim IS part of the Empire. she hasn't abandoned it, just moved to a different part.

she also lies to try to make you buy cures and potions you don't need.

 

I can blame Ulfric.

as far as I'm concerned, Ulfric is like a clockwork toy that the Thalmor wound up and set in motion to destabilise Skyrim and the Empire.

the Thalmor are the real villains and Ulfric is their tool.

without him there would be no rebellion.

the people and Jarls of Skyrim could have become independent from the Empire in the same way that Hammerfell did, if they were that upset by the terms of the WGC, but nothing happened for over 20 years until Ulfric (unknowingly working for the Thalmor) stirred it all up. giving the Thalmor the right to enforce the terms of the WGC in Skyrim and cause more unrest among the citizens of the Empire.

 

Firstly, in regards to the characters quoted:

 

1. Constant Gang Warfare and Economic depression. remember, Cicero states the ENTIRE Imperial Province is ravaged by strife.

 

2. That does not deny that Cyrodiil is poor.

 

3.Similarly, that doesn't contest that Cyrodiil was or is poor. However, I've never heard here suggesting she is still up to date with news from Cyrodiil (although I haven't played in a while).

 

In regards to Ulfric, remember he was imprisoned following the Great War, and prior to the Markarth incident, the Nords probably weren't organised enough to revolt.

 

And applying RL revolutionary theory to Skyrim (Try Lenin), we can actually see that:

 

A. Revolutions are not the result of one madman calling for war. They are the result of a desperate, destitute and disgruntled population, organised in or by a revolutionary organisation.

 

B. The Empire is in fact in what Lenin called a revolutionary situation (4th paragraph: http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1915/csi/ii.htm). Requires additional force to keep the population under control? Tick. Impossible for the ruling class to maintain control without change? Tick. etc etc.

 

The Stormcloak rebellion is a product of both of the above.

[scrapwood]

I work to a simple formula. I kill every thalmor I come across and empty every stormcloak camp I can find. I'm not pro Empire even though Gen Tallis tried to have me killed at the beginning of the game. I just don't like turncoats and two faced bigots. It is a pity we can't turn some of these "chicks" who carry the arms and do most of the fighting for the Thalmor males. Now that would really be interesting.