Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

 

And while Cyrodiil was ravaged, to say it was nearly unusable is morbidly obese. The Imperial City was completely sacked yes, but it wasn't like the Dominion enacted a slash and burn policy. Cyrodiil's farmland (that weren't used as sites for battles anyway) would have still been intact, and really the only part of Cyrodiil that could say to be near irreversibly ravaged outside of the Imperial City itself would have been the shore lines of the Niben and Lake Rumare, where the main battles of the Great War in Cyrodiil prior the the War of the Red Ring occurred. But I can't imagine that outside of Bravil and some small villages that Cyrodiil would be that badly affected. (Hell, we even see in lore that apparently Bravil isn't doing very well even now, so this may be the case)

 

Even Layawiin, being the first city struck by the Dominion would still be in a fair position because I can't imagine that the the sea would have been completely ravaged by this war (which I would think seems to be the main economic source for the town, being a port and all)

 

 

Yeah, i did lose most of my interest in this, but I will quote Camilla Valerius who stated the great war ruined 'everything', and reference several Imperials who had migrated from Cyrodiil to Skyrim following the Great War in search of a better life (Kynesgrove, Whiteruns Alchemist, Falkreath's inn keeper etc).

 

That said, are you sort of accepting my old argument sajuukkhar? That Cyrodiil is ruined, Skyrim is in chaos, Morrowind has nearly seceded (and is ruined) and perhaps High Rock is secure, while every other province has left the Empire.

[Septemvile]

Okay, this was worth putting the new save off for a bit.

 

 

No, the Mede Empire is an illegitimate one if we want to put any stock at all in the Septim Empire (Which is what ever Empire supporter is doing. They aren't basing their opinions on the Empire now, they're basing it on the Empire that was, and that one is dead).

 

 

Using this logic every single state in human history - and I'm talking real history - ceased to exist upon the passing of the throne to a new dynasty. Which means I guess there was 31 different Roman Empires in history, not considering the time of the Roman Republic.

 

Further, the appeal to what the Empire was is precisely the point. Over the years the Empire in Tamriel has risen and fallen, only to rise again in a new era. And it has always, always been based in Cyrodiil. It does not require a squirt of Tiber Septim sperm to see that the most prosperous years of Tamriel have always been when it was united under one Empire, and that the Empire can be renewed.

 

 

And as for the War of the Red Ring, he did not make any sort of logical decision at all when he came up with the Concordat (Yes, it was HIS idea, not the Dominion's). He spent the greater part of that battle cutting his way through the entirety of the Dominion's forces in Cyrodiil (to the point where every last Dominion soldier in the province was dead when the war ended) and after he finished, it was literally a matter of 1-2 days before he decided to do the exact opposite of every other war leader whose engaged in a similar conflict and gave his enemy the spoils of war. The Empire had the right to dictate the terms of peace, and for all the Dominion would have known, not to accept them would have meant even further annihilation.

 

 

The Battle of the Red Ring occurred in late 4E 174, the Concordat was signed in 175. There was certainly no "literally two days after signed a treaty" considering Mede hung Lord Naarifin from the White Gold Tower for 33 days after retaking the Imperial City. And no, he did not kill all Dominon soldiers, just the main force that was occupying the Imperial City. The Empire had "the right to dictate peace" only in that he'd seized a temporary momentum, and everyone knew it was temporary. If the war continued, it was likely the Aldmeri Dominion would have destroyed the Empire.

 

And every other war leader in the Empire had already given him advice. "Don't go to war, the Empire is too weak to handle it. Accept their demands."

 

 

In all honesty, I'm sure it was a big surprise for the Dominion when they were approached with the Concordat. I mean, its not like they didn't just lose not only a massive portion of their entire army in what was a single battle against a united and organized force of Legion. What the Dominion faced when the Great War began was a far cry from what came down upon them during the War of the Red Ring.

 

 

The Aldmeri Dominion lost a significant portion of their deployed armies. They still had full access to a well developed and undamaged war machine at home, and given a year or two to call up and train more recruits their boots would be back in Cyrodil. And getting approached with the Concordat was hardly a surprise at all given it was almost the exact demands they had made prior to the war, and was only accepted because as Ulfric proved it would help weaken the Empire given a couple of years.

 

 

- Wrong. The Concordat, while nearly identical to the original ultimatum given by the Dominion, is NOT that ultimatum. They are two different things. And either way, it was still his idea to allow the Dominion those spoils after he cut his way through thousands upon thousands of their soldiers.

 

 

The White-Gold Concordat differs from the original ultimatum primarily in that in the ultimatum they also demanded "exorbitant rights and a tribute", which they didn't secure in the Concordat.

 

 

They were clearly all dead, otherwise there would be no reason to use the word "completely". And I see no reason for the writer to embellish or glorify what happened either, considering he didn't seem to be all too happy with what happened any way.

 

He also uses main army, suggesting there were others if we're going to quibble vernacular.

 

 

- Wrong. High Rock and Skyrim were fine. Yes Cyrodiil was ravaged completely, and Hammerfel was still at war, but thats no reason to do what he did. As I've said countless times before, I am not suggesting that he could nor should have invaded the Dominion at the time. But he could have stopped any further incursions into Cyrodiil, and with two provinces still untouched by the war it wouldn't have been that hard to bring resources down to protect the border in the meantime.

 

 

Maybe you've missed this while playing the game. But Skyrim is a tundra wasteland. It doesn't have the ability to grow enough food to feed legions. And I doubt High Rock is going to be hella different. These are areas of mineral resources, not food growing capability. And him preventing further incursions into Cyrodiil would be impossible. He'd have to stretch his already battered and weary legions to basically cover the entire southern border, which results in no one area on the border able to actually repel determined assault.

 

 

And also, again as I've stated before, I have no issue with him ending the war at the time that he did. I just take issue with the fact that he spent literally no time looking at his assets and what was going on in the next province over before he decided to call for peace. And even THEN, went on to broker a peace that made the entire war POINTLESS.

 

 

He spent AT THE LEAST a month after the Battle of the Red Ring still at war with the Dominion, assuming that he signed peace the day after Naarifin died.

 

 

If he was so dumb as to give the Dominion everything they wanted in the first place after going through an entire bloody war with them (WHEN HE WON), and we're going to presume he did it to save lives, then he would have saved more lives if he never said no.

 

 

If Titus Mede had attempted to dictate terms to the Thalmor, they would have laughed in his face. The Empire was a crippling, limping shadow of its former self when he inherited it, and the devastating war with the Aldmeri Dominion didn't help in the least.

 

 

 

If the goal is to spare poor old Cyrodiil (as thats clearly all he looked at in making his decision), then he should never have let the war begin, he should have bowed down and cowered and gave the Dominion everything, because he ended up doing so anyway.

 

 

 

Cyrodiil is the heartland of the Empire and feeds everyone in it. Morrowind is a smoking ashland, and the few farms there were destroyed by Red Mountain. High Rock is a crag with some fertile soil, but unlikely enough to support the entire Empire.. Skyrim is tundra. Hammerfell is a desert. Lose Cyrodiil and you lose any ability to actually field legions or extend power in Tamriel.

 

The goal was to preserve the Empire, and he was willing to fight a war until it became clear that there was no way to win it.

 

 

And while Cyrodiil was ravaged, to say it was nearly unusable is morbidly obese. The Imperial City was completely sacked yes, but it wasn't like the Dominion enacted a slash and burn policy. Cyrodiil's farmland (that weren't used as sites for battles anyway) would have still been intact, and really the only part of Cyrodiil that could say to be near irreversibly ravaged outside of the Imperial City itself would have been the shore lines of the Niben and Lake Rumare, where the main battles of the Great War in Cyrodiil prior the the War of the Red Ring occurred. But I can't imagine that outside of Bravil and some small villages that Cyrodiil would be that badly affected. (Hell, we even see in lore that apparently Bravil isn't doing very well even now, so this may be the case)

 

 

They might not have salted the fields, but they enacted a policy of passive genocide within their borders. What human farmer would remain to tend his fields under that regime? Even if they didn't slash and burn, the fields still lay fallow for years and not growing anything, and the former fieldhands had fled for their lives. Getting people to move back in would be a monumental effort while the Empire was still at war.

 

 

Even Layawiin, being the first city struck by the Dominion would still be in a fair position because I can't imagine that the the sea would have been completely ravaged by this war (which I would think seems to be the main economic source for the town, being a port and all)

 

 

With the Dominion on both sides I doubt Leyawiin has an unmolested access to the sea, and would not at all be surprised at the movements of Blackmarsh "raiders" and "pirates" in the area.

 

 

The war in Hammerfel proves that a stalemate would have resulted in nothing for either side. But thats without considering the fact that the Empire would have more provinces to draw resources from. (The Dominion isn't very large, and most of its forces and resources would have originated in Valenwood, with possible help from the Elsweyr kingdoms. One province can't quite out-support two, particularly with the Dominion suffering greater losses and an inherent strategic downfall as time went on)

 

 

The only thing the War in Hammerfell proves is that guerrilla warfare in an inhospitable environment can tire out the organized troops of larger forces from softer lands. In the Aldermi Dominion Elsweyr plays the role of Hammerfell, with resources if you have people to stand the desert sun and extract them. The Summerset Isles is an area of pastures and orchards. Valenwood has lush forests that make invasion incredibly difficult and make the land very profitable. Realize also that unlike the Empire the Thalmor actually planned for the war and had stockpiles of resources.

 

 

Yes you can call hindsight, but fact of the matter is that when the War of the Red Ring started, the forces in Hammerfel were already starting to push the Dominion back across the Alik'r. By the time the War of the Red Ring was over, if Mede had taken the time to take in and assess the totality of his assets, then I'm sure it would have been clear to him that Hammerfel was proving itself self-reliant in fighting the Dominion. That a fractured Legion and whatever militia could be raised could even accomplish as much as they did at the time would have been enough to convince most that continuing the war, if only for just a bit longer, would prove more beneficial for the Empire.

 

 

Yes, it is hindsight. If Titus Mede had known that if left alone Hammerfell could successfully stage a half decade war of resistance against the Thalmor he might have been willing to risk continued war with the Thalmor. But he didn't have the knowledge and made the best decision available to him.

 

And yes, Hammerfell and the Thalmor had been pushing each other back and forth across the Alik'r for a couple of years by that point. The Aldmeri still held the entire southern coast (you know, the portion they had demanded at the start).

 

 

- They had no advantage. Hammerfel proves this. Hammerfel's forces were no better than Cyrodiil's, and they fought the Dominion off for 5 years.

 

 

Again, Hammerfell is a desert. The tactical advantage the Redguards had in the desert they lived and grew in was significant.

 

Hammerfell's forces were veterans of the former Imperial legions in Hammerfell. The cost of the war was devastating Southern Hammerfell, after which the Thalmor saw no purpose in waging war with insurgents for control of a wasteland.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Septemvile

[Septemvile]

Accidental double post.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Septemvile

[CWBush83]

The Civil War storyline felt like a big missed opportunity to me. It never really feels like there's a war on at all (hence the need for a mod like WARZONES). Even with that active, you still don't feel like it's a war so much as two bands occasionally fighting. Where's the poverty and the struggle?

 

I almost always go Stormcloak given the Imperial Legion did try and execute me ;D

[Gaius24]

I concur with Septemvile

 

As for the Domninion's end of the war strength-- the offensive forces used to cut across Cyrodiil may have lost the bulk of their strength prior to attempting to enter Hammerfell. Temporary logistic exhaustion in the field would account for some of the treaty as well. If that is true, if all this was is a temporary lose of offensive momentum, then the Thalmor will renew the war soon. Titus Meade must know that, he undoubtedly will [deleted for security reasons] which is why the Thalmor will try to unbalance the Empire through elimination of the leadership hence, the Empire is no more at peace with the Thalmor then the Stormcloaks are. This leads us to Skyrim.

 

Ulfric's tempertantrum in Skyrim would be seen as a perfect opportunity for the Domnion. It would have diverted attention to Skyrim and resources the Empire could ill afford to lose. Ulfric's victory would mean (or does mean) that the Empire would be or is further diminished. The active and passive genocide he would undoubtedly practice against non-Nords would increase tensions in Tamriel and divide it against itself. Easy pickings for Argonia, the Sloads and The Dominion. So much for the freedom of the Nords.

 

Saint Alicia would weap.

 

 

 

 

P.s.

(CW I agree there was not as much outright conflict maybe as there should have been, few refugees, no disease and starvation, dying men, dying women, dying children, children who have lost their parents, parents who have lost their children, whole families wiped out, cruelty without bounds, the absolute misery,desperation and inhumanity that is the reality of war is missing. But do you really want to go there. Don't we play this game to be Heroic in the over-the -top romantic way; Not the everyday, forgotten about way?)

Edited June 23, 2013 by Gaius24

[Kraeten]

Ulfric's tempertantrum in Skyrim would be seen as a perfect opportunity for the Domnion. It would have diverted attention to Skyrim and resources the Empire could ill afford to lose. Ulfric's victory would mean (or does mean) that the Empire would be or is further diminished. The active and passive genocide he would undoubtedly practice against non-Nords would increase tensions in Tamriel and divide it against itself.

 

Aaaand you just totally lost me. Genocide? Sure Uflric doesn't much care for non-nords, but GENOCIDE? You have absolutely no evidence to back up such a ridiculous claim. All we know is he won't defend non-nords who roam outside his city. Reprehensible certainly, but not grounds to call him a mass murderer. That's just hysteria. There aren't even many non-nords in Skyrim to begin with, and of these there are even fewer on the roads. These same few don't much care to aid his cause either.

Edited June 26, 2013 by Kraeten

[MidbossVyers]

I posted this on GameFAQs:

First of all, if you read the Dossier, the Thalmor do not want either side to win. They just want the war to last as long as possible. Based on that, you can choose either side, so long as you finish it quickly, but a Stormcloak victory will at least ensure more dead Thalmor in the short term.

Secondly, the Thalmor cannot launch some kind of "internal attack" on Skyrim. Every named Thalmor officer is executed in any city that the Stormcloaks conquer. There are still random Thalmor patrols, but that is more a gameplay mechanic than a story one. Compare that to an Imperial victory where the Thalmor are free to roam anywhere.

Thirdly, the Stormcloaks have racial pride, true, but for the most part, they are not racist. They say "Skyrim is for the Nords" because they want a Nord ruler to have the final say in any decisions in Skyrim rather than the Emperor. They are perfectly fine with elven farmers, shopkeepers, and stewards. Yes, there are a few like Rolff, but he was discharged for a reason. The Dunmer are not so much "confined" to the Gray Quarter as they cannot afford anywhere better, and due to a gameplay mechanic, there is only 1 house available for sale in Windhelm to anyone... The murder house. The only act of real racism that anyone representing the Stormcloaks as a whole has ever committed was the Markarth Incident. However, that was not so much race, as much as whether or not you supported the Forsworm occupation or the Nord occupation.

Fourthly, under Stormcloak rule, Skyrim may experience an external attack from the Thalmor, but given that Hammerfell survived, Skyrim will most likely too. It is basically like, during our history, whenever any army attacked Russia, half their forces froze to death before the fighting even begins.

Fifthly, the Stormcloaks are not comprised solely of Nords. During random encounters, you will find Redguard and even Imperial (race, not country) villagers wanting to join the Stormcloaks. Stormcloak Jarls have elven stewards, and depending on your race, it may even include whatever you are. Similarly, because they share an equal bitterness against the Empire, Skyrim and Hammerfell as a whole may align.

Sixthly, most annoyingly of all, Ulfric is NOT Hitler. Honestly, I HATE how in both real life and fiction, whenever you want to belittle someone without any real evidence whatsoever, you compare them to Hitler. You want to compare Ulfric to someone? Try the Founding Fathers of the United States of America. They fought and won a nearly hopeless war for freedom against an oppressive empire... While oppressing other people to do so (I often compare the Forsworn to the Native Americans).

Also, when I meant that the majority of Stormcloaks have a sense of racial pride but are not racist. I mean, that they are not more racist than the Imperials. Ever been to Leyawiin? Stormcloaks are known to not allow beastkin to operate shops in their cities, but the Imperial court of Leyawiin keeps beastkin in cities, specifically their torture chambers.
Also, going back to the Founding Fathers of the United States, Thomas Jefferson was known as his liberal views against slavery, but here is what he wrote about blacks:
They secrete less by the kidnies, and more by the glands of the skin, which gives them a very strong and disagreeable odour. This greater degree of transpiration renders them more tolerant of heat, and less so of cold, than the whites. Perhaps too a difference of structure in the pulmonary apparatus, which a late ingenious experimentalist has discovered to be the principal regulator of animal heat, may have disabled them from extricating, in the act of inspiration, so much of that fluid from the outer air, or obliged them in expiration, to part with more of it. They seem to require less sleep. A black, after hard labour through the day, will be induced by the slightest amusements to sit up till midnight, or later, though knowing he must be out with the first dawn of the morning. They are at least as brave, and more adventuresome. But this may perhaps proceed from a want of forethought, which prevents their seeing a danger till it be present. When present, they do not go through it with more coolness or steadiness than the whites. They are more ardent after their female: but love seems with them to be more an eager desire, than a tender delicate mixture of sentiment and sensation.
Yes, historically, people known for being not racist were actually rather racist.

[Gaius24]

Kraeten and Midboss- I spent 2 hours composing this wonderfully precise and polite response. It included my understanding of U.S. and World history, a short discusssion of the phrase "racial pride" and it's possible meanings, and a small commentary on the politics of Nirn and the hope for Tamriel. But it just seems to be too much. So how about this.

 

I see the world one way. You see it another. We play a game and have fun.

 

OH and dont call me hysterical.

That's my brother and he is VERY FUNNY. :biggrin:

[Kraeten]

Kraeten and Midboss- I spent 2 hours composing this wonderfully precise and polite response. It included my understanding of U.S. and World history, a short discusssion of the phrase "racial pride" and it's possible meanings, and a small commentary on the politics of Nirn and the hope for Tamriel. But it just seems to be too much. So how about this.

 

I see the world one way. You see it another. We play a game and have fun.

 

OH and dont call me hysterical.

That's my brother and he is VERY FUNNY. :biggrin:

 

Walls of text are something of a staple of this thread, no need to shy away from posting your original response. Especially if you've invested two hours of your time writing said response. Seems a waste not to share it. Just my opinion anyway. :happy:

[TheLoreSeeker]

It pleases me to no end to see this debate still going on.

Edited April 28, 2014 by TheLoreSeeker