Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LobselVith66]

 

So is the Imperials.

 

Who are under the thumb of the Thalmor, while the Stormcloaks are directly opposed to them.

 

 

Hammerfell had Imperial soldier with them, digsused as injured soldier.

Besides, the Thalmor also tried to get Cyrodiil at the same time. Now they only need to focus on Skyrim.

 

The Empire sold out Hammerfell to the Dominion as part of the White-Gold Concordt, which is why Hammerfell severed ties to the Empire and took on the Thalmor on their own.

 

 

And the Stormcloak will? As of now, it is the Stormcloaks fault the Empire can't build up. They waste precious time on a rebeliion, instead of training, learning and building another army.

 

There's no evidence that the Stormcloak rebellion prevented the Empire from taking on the Thalmor. Given that the Empire offered Ulfric freedom of religion in Markarth, and then sold him out when the Thalmor discovered Talos worship going on in Skyrim, it doesn't seem like the Empire will try to take on the Thalmor anytime soon. Instead of trying to hold onto Skyrim to keep it as part of the Empire, why not focus on the concerns going on in Cyrodiil? Why not focus on their own army, their own resources, instead?

 

 

Ulfric does not "support" you. He uses you. You are not getting the High King seat, he is. Then the old ways start, as he wants, where the strongest get what he deserves. Problem is: They do not got the time for that.

 

I never claimed the Dragonborn would become High King or Queen, I addressed that the Dragonborn can support Jarl Ulfric in the civil war and turn the tide of the war in his favor. As for the "old ways," you keep repeating this, but what it means is the restoration of worshipping Talos being legal, rather than criminal.

 

 

But you don't see the invasion coming a month afterwards? Before Skyrim is ready?

 

Jarl Ulfric is focused on the Thalmor threat from the moment he wins the Battle of Solitude. If the Empire is sincerely going to take on the Thalmor in the future, they can just as easily do so with Skyrim as an ally rather than as part of the Empire. Clearly, the Stormcloaks want to eradicate Thalmor control.

[LobselVith66]

 

The Stormcloaks do not have the full support of Skyrim. Fact.

Skyrim is part of the Empire. Fact.

The Empire can draw military resources from (at least) 2 additional provinces. Fact.

3>1. Fact.

Its a mathmatic fact that the Empire, even weakened as it is, is stronger than the Stormcloaks.

 

The Stormcloaks can gain full control of Skyrim if they win the civil war. Skyrim isn't part of the Empire if the Stormcloaks win the civil war. The Empire might also be draining Skyrim's resources for their own profit and gain, rather than the gain of the denizens of Skyrim. And it's not a mathematical fact, it's an assumption on your part, because the Empire seems to be wasting a lot of manpower and resources in trying to hold onto Skyrim during this civil war that could instead be focused on preparing for a potential Thalmor invasion.

 

 

As for this Talos thing, i'm thinking, more and more, that its to drive the story away from Talos (Whose domans largely included unity and peace, despite being a general) and more towards schism and, more importantly, Racism. In other words, back towards Lorkhan(Shor).

 

Ulfric, for all his Talos bluster, screamse Shezzarine to me. He's racist, violent, and has a near pathilogic hatred of Mer. The Stormcloaks are caught up in it themselves. The only hint of a Mer you see in their lines if is the Dragonborn sides with them, and story wise he may as well be a Sload, cause no one seems to notice anyway.

 

Ulfric hates the Thalmor, who tortured him and want to destroy all existance, not to mention how they brutalized and murdered innocent people durng the Great War, and continue to do so because of the White-Gold Concordt; hating the Talmor doesn't mean he is a racist. Ulfric has no issue with the Dragonborn if he (or she) isn't a Nord, and even provides him with the title of Thane of Windhelm, and grants him the right to have a mansion.

 

 

I'm not saying that the Domminion, being Elves, are good, but the Empire preaches a type of harmony between the races which i for one would die fighting for. As such, i'd rather die for an Imperial World than live for a Stormcloak.

 

The Empire is letting the Thalmor kidnap, torture, and murder people with impunity - how is that harmony? For some people, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

[Lachdonin]

The Stormcloaks can gain full control of Skyrim if they win the civil war. Skyrim isn't part of the Empire if the Stormcloaks win the civil war. The Empire might also be draining Skyrim's resources for their own profit and gain, rather than the gain of the denizens of Skyrim. And it's not a mathematical fact, it's an assumption on your part, because the Empire seems to be wasting a lot of manpower and resources in trying to hold onto Skyrim during this civil war that could instead be focused on preparing for a potential Thalmor invasion.

 

So you're trying to argue that one province is somehow stronger than 3? You may want to go back to elementary school there.

 

If you actually do the Imperial questline, you are led to beleive that the Empire is unwilling to commit much in the way of resources to the Stormcloak rebellion. This is indicated to be because they are already preparing for another way against the Thalmor.

 

And the Stormcloaks may be able to gain full control of Skyrim, but the ending is roughly the same as with the Imperials, and you are told, flat out, that there will be fighting with Imperial sympathsiers for months, if not years to come. Neither sides have a particularly conclusive ending, buttrying to argue that somehow Skyrim becomes more powerful after losing the support of 2 additional provinces military power (Not to mention trade) is absurd.

 

Ulfric hates the Thalmor, who tortured him and want to destroy all existance, not to mention how they brutalized and murdered innocent people durng the Great War, and continue to do so because of the White-Gold Concordt; hating the Talmor doesn't mean he is a racist. Ulfric has no issue with the Dragonborn if he (or she) isn't a Nord, and even provides him with the title of Thane of Windhelm, and grants him the right to have a mansion.

 

The Dragonborn thing is irrelivent. The game is not designed to give you differing experiences based on race. Ulfric also does not just hate the Thalmor. He hates the Dunmer, the Argonians, the Khajit, the Foresworn, probably the Brettons, no ones particularly fond of the Sload... The Thalmor are a small problem of Ulfric's systematic hatred against everything not Nord. Even then, he clearly states that if your not with him, your against him, and that no true nord would pick the Empires side. The man not only legitimately hates other races, he arbitrarily decides what constitutes a 'true Nord' based on their alegience to him.

 

The Empire is letting the Thalmor kidnap, torture, and murder people with impunity - how is that harmony? For some people, it's better to die on your feet than live on your knees.

 

The Empire wants the Thalmor out. This has been pointed to, quoted and supported with enough information to make the Theory of Evolution blush. In order to build sufficient power to put the Thalmor down once and for all, however, the Empire accepts that some disscomfort is nessessary.

 

Its not a matter fo living on your knees or dieing on your feet, its a matter of kneeling for a minute so you can get the knife under the ribcage.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Lachdonin

[LobselVith66]

 

So you're trying to argue that one province is somehow stronger than 3? You may want to go back to elementary school there.

 

The Empire wasn't able to deal with the Thalmor, while one province - Hammerfell - was. Clearly, history isn't on your side in assuming that Skyrim couldn't do the same in dealing with the Thalmor by becoming independent of the Empire, when that's precisely what Hammerfell did before maintaining their independence when the Empire couldn't.

 

 

If you actually do the Imperial questline, you are led to beleive that the Empire is unwilling to commit much in the way of resources to the Stormcloak rebellion. This is indicated to be because they are already preparing for another way against the Thalmor.

 

Tullis' concern that the Thalmor are a threat aren't an indication that the Empire will go to war with the Thalmor. The entire reason that the Empire sold out Ulfric when they sent him to retake Markarth is because they weren't willing to go to war with the Thalmor.

 

 

And the Stormcloaks may be able to gain full control of Skyrim, but the ending is roughly the same as with the Imperials, and you are told, flat out, that there will be fighting with Imperial sympathsiers for months, if not years to come. Neither sides have a particularly conclusive ending, buttrying to argue that somehow Skyrim becomes more powerful after losing the support of 2 additional provinces military power (Not to mention trade) is absurd.

 

I'm addressing that Skyrim has a chance to stand on its own two proverbial feet, and that staying part of the Empire isn't mandatory in dealing with the Thalmor.

 

 

The Dragonborn thing is irrelivent. The game is not designed to give you differing experiences based on race. Ulfric also does not just hate the Thalmor. He hates the Dunmer, the Argonians, the Khajit, the Foresworn, probably the Brettons, no ones particularly fond of the Sload...

 

Does Ulfric ever say that he hates Dunmer, Argonians, or anyone simply because they aren't Nord? Because you seem to be addressing the opinions of other characters view of Ulfric as fact. The same Dunmer in the Gray Quarter who dismiss Ulfric also don't care that innocent women are getting killed because the victims aren't Dunmer - there's no black and white here. There's good and bad with the Stormcloaks and the Legion - neither side is perfect. I think Ulfric's Jarls are asinine, and prefer the Legion allied Jarls, but what Ulfric brings to the table is a Skyrim free of the Thalmor, and a willingess to fight them rather than submit to them. What we can see and hear is that Ulfric wants to deal with the Thalmor, not placate them and allow them free reign with countless men, women, and children.

 

 

The Thalmor are a small problem of Ulfric's systematic hatred against everything not Nord. Even then, he clearly states that if your not with him, your against him, and that no true nord would pick the Empires side. The man not only legitimately hates other races, he arbitrarily decides what constitutes a 'true Nord' based on their alegience to him.

 

You mean the man clearly hates the Thalmor, and any people or organization willing to side with the Thalmor - like the Empire.

 

 

The Empire wants the Thalmor out. This has been pointed to, quoted and supported with enough information to make the Theory of Evolution blush. In order to build sufficient power to put the Thalmor down once and for all, however, the Empire accepts that some disscomfort is nessessary.

 

There's also enough information out there to see that the Empire can't, or won't, do anything about the Thalmor, and may never be able or willing to.

[Schattenu]

I think it's funny that you keep berating others for interpreting character opinions as facts and just ignore the facts that have been given in favor of the Empire. Did Ulfric say he hates anyone that's not a Nord? YES! Tell all those Argonians and Khajiit that he refuses to even let into Windhelm that he doesn't hate non-Nords! And again, you're ignoring what many have stated about the Empire's relationship with the Thalmor: In the game, there doesn't appear to be anyone deluded enough to think that there won't be another war between those two sooner or later. Pretty much everyone openly admits, be they Imperials or Stormcloaks or Thalmor or farmers, that one way or another, that conflict will start up again. This isn't opinion based on player observations from outside the game, this is a fact stated by several in-game individuals, regardless of allegiance.

[daventry]

I can see a DLC on the Thalmor War, no matter witch Group you joined and after reading whats been said about Ulfric and the Stormcloaks, im sticking with the Imperials.

[Matth85]

I can see a DLC on the Thalmor War

Or perhaps make it bigger: AN expansion? A small visit to the Summerset Isles, for instance.

Or perhaps the expasion brings the invasion.

 

I would love a Expansion, giving me 30ish houres of more Thalmor!

[Lachdonin]

Ok, it has been said several times now, but Hammerfell did NOT beat the Thalmor on its own. It was largely due to soldiers 'disscharged' by the 8th legion who were given express orders to hold Hammerfall. As such, the Empire drove the Thalmor out of Hammerfell.

 

Second, the Empire beat the Thalmor. They slaughtered the majority of the Domminion army, which the Thalmor had gambled with hoping to take control of the Empire in one swift blow. The only reason the Empire did not take the fight to the Thalmor right then and there was because the remaining legions would have been insufficient to invade Summerset. They won the War, but had no way to put the Thamor down for good.

 

This is all VERY clearly doccumented, and ignoring it borders on the moronic. It is also clearly doccumented that the Empire wants the Thalmor gone, for good. It is also very clearly doccumented that the Talos ban was not inforced until Ulfric and his Stormcloaks kicked up a fuss. The ONLY reason the Thalmor are in Skyrim is to inforce the ban, as such their presence is because of the Stormcloaks.

 

The Empire has done some questionable things, yes. They have made some bad decisions, yes. However, there is no indication, beyond the Thalmors own self agrandised statements, that the Empire ahd any intention of bowing to their every whim. They sacrificed one thing in order to fight another day, with the express goal of regaining what they gave up.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Lachdonin

[justwannaddl]

The 8th legion was destroyed doing a rear guard action while the emperor retreated from the IC. The soldiers left behind were discharged veterans from the failed campaign to expel the Thalmor from Hammerfell. Saying it was the empire that drove them out is disingenuous since the empire renounced its ties after the people and the vets rebelled. At that point, Hammerfell really was on its own. Edited December 23, 2011 by justwannaddl

[Lachdonin]

4E 174: The Sack of the Imperial City

 

In 4E 174, the Thalmor leadership committed all available forces to the campaign in Cyrodiil, gambling on a decisive victory to end the war once and for all. During the spring, Aldmeri reinforcements gathered in southern Cyrodiil, and on 12th of Second Seed, they launched a massive assault on the Imperial City itself. One army drove north to completely surround the city, while Lord Naarifin's main force attacked the walls from the south, east, and west. The Emperor's decision to fight his way out of the city rather than make a last stand was a bold one. No general dared advise him to abandon the capital, but Titus II was proven right in the end.

 

While the Eighth Legion fought a desperate (and doomed) rearguard action on the walls of the city, Titus II broke out of the city to the north with his main army, smashing through the surrounding the Aldmeri forces and linking up with reinforcements marching south from Skyrim under General Jonna. Meanwhile, however, the capital fell to the invaders and the infamous Sack of the Imperial City began. The Imperial Palace was burned, the White Gold Tower itself looted, and all manner of atrocities carried out by the vengeful elves on the innocent populace.

 

In Hammerfell, General Decianus was preparing to drive the Aldmeri back from Skaven when he was ordered to march for Cyrodiil. Unwilling to abandon Hammerfell completely, he allowed a great number of "invalids" to be discharged from the Legions before they marched east. These veterans formed the core of the army that eventually drove Lady Arannelya's forces back across the Alik'r late in 174, taking heavy losses on their retreat from harassing attacks by the Alik'r warriors.

 

Correct, the 8th held the rearguard. That was an obvious mistake on my part.

 

Incorrect, the Redguard expelled the Domminion on their own. The quote above clearly says otherwise.