Imperial VS Stormcloak

[LobselVith66]

 

No, he ran because he knew he was guilty. Killing the High King of Skyrim is against the law. The Empire does not follow "Nordic traditions".

 

If the challenge was against the law, why did Torygg accept Ulfric's challenge as High King?

 

 

It's not "LEGAL". The Empire wouldn't be spending so much manpower to hunt him down. He's a usurper/murderer who killed his High King.

 

It was legal. Torygg accepted the challenge, no one in the court contested the legality, and even the court mage never contests that Ulfric had the right to challenge Torygg for the throne. In fact, she says that they never would have allowed him into Solitude if they knew that he was planning on challenging Torygg for the throne, but that by the time they figured it out it was already too late.

 

 

No, the Empire plunged into Civil War because Usurp-Ulfric thought it was okay to "pick and choose" his own Nordic traditions to justify murder, and wrongful usage of his power. The Thalmor aren't torturing people to a large scale where you see concentration camps all over the place. The Thalmor mostly use espionage. This shows the Thalmor are somewhat limited in their power in conducting they're illegal search, and seizures. Ulfric's arrogance makes him takes situations like this, and b lows them out of proportions.

 

You mean Ulfric challenged Torygg for the throne, and Torygg accepted the challenge. And even Alvor, who is pro-Empire and uncle to the Imperial soldier Hadvar, addresses that the Thalmor talking people out of their homes is one of the serious problems behind the civil war and the unrest in Skyrim.

 

 

Does Ulfric realize starting a Civil War will mostly weaken both sides, allows the Thalmor to invade? It's a classic Peloponnesian War setup, expect this time, it's the suicide of Skyrim.

 

If that was the case, the Thalmor wouldn't want a victory for either side - the dossier specifically addresses that the Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory for the civil war.

 

 

The reason why Ulfric escaped is because Roggvir diverted attention to himself. If that wasn't the case, why didn't Roggvir escape with him?

 

Roggvir opened the gate for Ulfric to leave Solitude, that's the reason Roggvir was going to be executed.

 

 

Ulfric needed a fall guy, like he always does. If it's High King Torygg, an innocent man with family, it's your average Joe - Roggvir.

 

Torygg accepted the challenge that Ulfric brought up, and lost his life because of it. And Roggvir opened the gate for Ulfric, and defended his decision right up until he was executed. You're arguing as though neither of these men were capable of making their own choices. Both of the men were adults, and one of them was the High King of Skyrim.

 

 

That doesn't seem to be the case if Ulfric was going to get his head chopped off for it. The Empire exists for this very reason, so the political system in Skyrim doesn't fall to such barbaric traditions.

 

Considering that Ulfric wants to emancipate Skyrim from the Empire, it makes perfect sense that the Empire wants to execute Ulfric before he can claim the throne as High King. And that torture chamber that the protagonist runs across at Helgen was pretty barbaric to me.

 

 

Of course there's corruption in the Empire. I never said there wasn't. However, the assassination of the Emperor doesn't lead to a Civil War that kills thousands of people. The Empire knows how handle situations like this peacefully, because they're civilized.

 

You realize the Empire is part of the civil war, right? Imperial soldiers are fighting Stormcloak rebels.

 

 

However, Ulfric's form of being civilized is killing anyone who disagrees, or doesn't side with him.

 

Like the Jarls Ulfric spares, their Housecarls, and even their advisors... or when he tries to spare the life of Legate Rikke, despite the fact that she is the right-hand of General Tullius.

 

 

Tiber Septim's Empire isn't like the rest of the civilizations before it. It's arguably one of longest lasting, and stable human civilizations in world, at this point , because it practices some of the earliest forms democracy. History has shown that democracy develops civilizations into more technologically, and culturally advanced. The Empire represents progress, a feat that Ulfric can't prove himself to live up to.

 

No, it isn't a democracy, it's an Empire. That's precisely why people refer to it as an Empire. You could argue that the Elder Council makes it an oligarchy type of empire once its monarch is killed during the Dark Brotherhood Questline, but that doesn't mean it's a democracy when the power doesn't rest with the people.

 

 

Of course he doesn't, people don't tend to admit to murder. Look at Ulfric, he's not calling his murder of civilians wrong, he's saying it's justified by Talos.... "Holy War".

 

Yes, there is evidence that Ulfric commited crimes against the Reachmen. Did you think the Reachmen left their native homelands willingly? No, Ulfric purged them from it. I doubt the Forsworn resistance would be created if some from of foul play wasn't there.

 

In other words, the Nord militia that was created by the Empire and Jarl Igmund fought against the independent kingdom established by the ruler Madanach, with Ulfric using the Voice, and the Reachmen lost. And the Forsworn want to reclaim their kingdom by taking back control of their territory.

 

 

The evidence is easy to figure out. The Reachmen are the natives of the reach. The Reachmen don't live or control The Reach anymore, the Nords do.

 

Why?

 

Because the Empire and Jarl Igmund established a Nord miltia to take control of the Reach with the promise of religious freedom?

 

 

Ulfric was paid "religious freedom" to kill The Reachmen from their native homelands. Ironically, Ulfric was too ignorant to realize the Empire could reverse that decision because of the ramifications of the Great War.

 

So, all those people got killed for nothing.

 

Soldiers of the Nord miltia fighting soldiers of the independent kingdom established by Madanach doesn't really villify either side. The Empire wanted the territory, Ulfric wanted religious freedom, and Madanach and his people wanted their own kingdom. A war ensued, and the King of Rags - Madanach - lost.

 

 

It's the other way around, Ulfric betrayed the Empire. Ulfric was too selfish to care about the needs of the general populace. If they aren't Nords, they don't deserve to have the same freedoms. The Empire's treaty with the Thalmor saved thousands, if not millions of people on both sides of war. That sounds hell of a lot better than killing Non-Nords just because you want to worship a god. Religion doesn't justify the means.

 

Where does Ulfric make this claim? I don't see or hear about Ulfric claiming that only Nords deserve freedom, or to live in Skyrim. If that was the case, I don't think he'll allow non-Nords entry into the Stormcloaks, and we can encounter at least one elven Stormcloak, and hear two very irrate Nords berate a Dunmer woman because the Dunmer aren't entering the Stormcloak army to fight for Ulfric's cause. If Ulfric didn't want non-Nords to participate, I don't imagine these two Nords would be so angry that Dunmer weren't fighting alongside the Stormcloaks to free Skyrim from the Empire.

 

 

Also, it doesn't have to be a pure democratic structure. Empires such as the Roman and Greek Empires, had some forms of democracy, but they weren't complete democracies. The Empire allows their citizens to petition to their Jarls, and their High King. This , in fact , is a part of the democratic process. It's in fetal stages, but it devolops over time. Ulfric's solution is move Skyrim into the Dark Ages, by eliminating bureaucracy, and moving Skyrim to a more theocratic form of government.

 

An Empire lead by an Emperor and an Elder Council, or Skyrim lead by the High King and the Jarls. It doesn't seem that dissimilar to me.

 

 

The Empire also can release particular citizens. They're are some people within the Empire that have influence over the Thalmor, like General Tillus and the Emperor.

 

Does the Emperor or General Tullius release a prisoner from Thalmor custody throughout the entire narrative?

 

 

Justiciars can't go around killing anybody they want to, they have to have probably reason.

 

However, in your case, there can be exceptions, but the most part you don't see Thalmor marching around like Nazis. The people of your exception should be treated individually.

 

I didn't realize saying "I can worship whoever I want to" was probable cause for the Thalmor to commit attempt to kill someone.

 

 

The citizens of the Empire don't really know for sure that they want Usurp-Ulfric telling them what to do, instead of an Empire that has already proven itself to be more economically, and politically stable.

 

For Ulfric, if they don't agree with him or side with him - perish.

 

The people do know what they want - some want the Empire, like Hadvar and Alvor, and others want to emancipate Skyrim, like Ralof and Gerdur.

 

And if you're going to keep claiming that Ulfric will simply kill anyone who disagrees with him, can you provide some evidence to back it up?

 

 

Brunwolf states he has plans to integrate Argonians into the city.

 

Brunwolf says he can't allow the Argonians into Windhelm because it would be dangerous for them. He doesn't seem to give any indication that he'll permit them to enter the city.

 

 

For so long, under Ulfric, they've been discriminated against , and their relationship with Nords is extremely fragile to point they haven't start killing each other. Of course Ulfric can't remove the Dunmer, he's fighting a losing war, and he needs man power fighting, instead of removing people. If he does get into the right political atmosphere, Ulfric will remove Dunmer, being pressured by his echleon to.

 

So despite the fact that Ulfric has full control over Windhelm, command of his own rebel army and over the guards, you're claiming that Ulfric isn't removing the Dunmer because he's fighting a "losing war"? He could simply order the guards to take care of it. Ulfric doesn't. If he did, I don't think Nords would wonder why Dunmer aren't participating on behalf of the Stormcloak cause.

 

 

Also, your opinion that since there's one eleven Stormcloak, there must be no racism?

 

Of course there's racism - there's racism everywhere. Stormcloaks, Legion, Skyrim, Cyrodiil. Throughout Tamriel. However, your claim that Ulfric is focused on a racist goal doesn't seem to have merit when non-Nords can enter the Stormcloaks, and he never seems to explicitly state any goals of removing non-Nords from Skyrim. Ulfric repeartedly addresses that his foe is the Thalmor, as does his second in command.

 

 

That's not true, a perfect real life example of this is African Americans who served in the Vietnam War. Even after Harry Truman's integration of the armed forces, after World War II, African Americans still were not consider as equal as their white comrades. Elves may be able to join the Stormcloaks, but that doesn't mean they'll be treated equally.

 

And Skyrim, like much of Cyrodiil, deals with racism, that much is true.

 

 

So, Ulfric represents no progress towards racial equality? Ok, so that's fine if Ulfric wants to discriminate non-Nords because they're subhuman. I don't agree with that at all, and I don't think anybody in their right mind should. Just because racism is universal Elder Scroll Series doesn't make it right.

 

Given that Brunwolf can't provide any resources to the Gray Quarter and won't allow the Argonians into the city, you could say the same for the Legion appointed Jarl. Ulfric is focused on the war, and I don't hear him saying that he has any plans to eradicate anyone simply for not being a Nord or for not siding with him. He makes a point of intentionally sparing the Jarl of Whiterun, and he stresses that he would prefer to avoid bloodshed.

 

 

They live on the Docks because Ulfric refuses to let them in...

 

So does Brunwolf. For all his progressive talk about the Dunmer and non-Nords, he doesn't actually do anything differently than Ulfric when he becomes Jarl.

 

 

That doesn't make any sense because we're talking about the Dunmer being allowed to live inside Windhelm, not Skyrim.

 

It makes perfect sense when you listen to the Dunmer of the Gray Quarter, and they tell you that they left Morrowind right after the eruption of Red Mountain - an event that transpired nearly a century ago.

 

 

Weird, because the Jarl of Igmund doesn't think so, and Ulfric takes pride in it.

 

Neither Igmund nor Ulfric claim that the Nord militia killed Reachmen citizens. It's addressed that the militia reclaimed the Reach for the Empire. I don't doubt that innocent people were killed, but it's another matter entirely to say that the Empire, Igmund, or Ulfric were personally and intentionally responsible for the deaths of innocent people. You're conglating the fact that Ulfric and the militia reclaimed the Reach with the "Bear of Markarth" book that is, apparently, factually inaccurate since a myraid of people living in the Reach contest its claims.

 

 

Whiterun guards aren't legionnaire soldiers.

 

Whiterun guards are fighting alongside Legion soldiers because Ulfric is looking to depose Balgruuf. By claiming that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are simply slaughtering innocent guards, you're misrepresenting what actually transpired.

 

 

Whiterun is also neutral before Ulfric's invasion.

 

Ulfric exiles Balgruuf to humiliate him, and the Empire.

 

Depending on who you side with, Ulfric also tries to make peace with Balgruuf to avoid a battle by giving him his axe.

 

 

If he can manipulate them, yeah...

 

If Ulfric was as racist as you claim, wouldn't he avoid making any non-Nord a Stormcloak? In fact, the proprietor of Falkreath is accepting of non-Nords because of his time with the Stormcloaks.

 

 

Tullius surrenders, Ulfric still kills him.

 

Tullius loses the battle. The same is true if the Dragonborn sides with Tullius against Ulfric.

 

 

Ulfric the Usurp had no where to run, and what decoy? We're talking about the real Emperor. Unless, the one at the end of the Dark Broterhood storyline was a decoy too... if you say so...

 

The decoy of the Emperor who we encounter prior to killing the real Emperor. Clearly, the Emperor didn't simply accept his fate, unless you are suggesting that one of his subordinates ordered him to accept a decoy?

 

 

Ironically, there's evidence of Ulfric working for the Thalmor. There's a dossier , inside the Thalmor Embassy , that states Ulfric was one of their espionage contacts inside the Empire. Who's to say Ulfric isn't softening up Skyrim so the Thalmor can take over?

 

The Civil War doesn't help any side militarily, but it does seem to be helping the Thalmor.

 

The dossier claims that Ulfric refuses to take orders, and that a Stormcloak victory in Skyrim would be bad news for the Thalmor.

 

 

The thing is the Empire has already exerted control over those regions, with acceptance , however Ulfric's attitude puts him in the position in which he can extend Nord control over all Tamriel, obviously not peacefully.

 

You mean, the same kind of "acceptance" that we see in Skyrim - with war, bloodshed, and soldiers? And you can make the same claim of the Empire, and the surrounding territory. The difference is, it's actually brought up by Legion soldiers that the Empire might invade another nation - specifically, Morrowind.

[SaintAnon]

The empires far to fat and bloated with corruption for even the strongest of warriors to reach the position of Emperor

The goal is not to become the leader of a certain faction. You are Dovahkiin, you slay dragons, you are a god man, you are not a leader. The goal is to survive and try and take out the Thalmor. In case you didn't know, the Emperor got very little saying in these matters. I suspect all the emperor would do is say "yes" and "no". Thus you would only need to get to the top of the Legion and be able to sweet talk to the elder council -- which is entirely different from becoming emperor.

 

Being an emperor, as being a king/president today, is not about being a strong warrior. It's about being political, being smart and be a peoples person. I doubt Rambo would have a chance for President, for instance. That said, a loyal soldier that got pride and honor, and knows how to lead, can become a general and easily be able to talk to the Elder Council and lay out a plan. Nobody would say no to a Dovahkiin, not easily at least.

 

That said, I'd agree it would be easier to become High King under the rule of the Stormcloaks. However, then you are limited to 1 country and 1 army. Being a commander of an army of the Empire could lead to 3 armies over what, 3-4 countries?

 

All true but my character is tired of pulling the strings from behind the imperial veil, looking for a complete military domination of Nirn not seen sense the days of old when men first toppled the Ayleids and waged battles against the races of Akaviri. Eventually leading to the founding of a brand new Empire, once again ruled by Dragonborn Emperors.

 

Also working on a treaty with the Dragons to serve in my military in exchange for there own homelands once the Dominion falls.

 

What can I say my character has big aspirations :whistling:

Edited December 29, 2011 by SaintAnon

[djinx187]

wait who is the elf that is stormcloak? The only one besides the dragonborn(if you chose that race) was Captain Valmir and he wasn't a stormcloak he was a thalmor spy trying to get you to get the mask. oh and about the dunmer

 

from Scourge of the Gray Quarter

 

There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were. Indeed, the soft hand of Hoag can be seen in the cities [sic] Argonian population as well; the fish-men, at least, have learned how to best contribute to their new home. They have proven themselves as models, toiling at the docks with utmost efficiency and bright smiles. It would do the dark elves well to pay heed to their scaly cousins. I would expect in due course that they will find themselves either contributing more directly or once again wandering the land in search of roof and warmth.

 

The first line is the one I'd like to point out. Last thing he would want is to fight a war on two fronts. If he pissed off the Dunmer while at war with the Imperials that easily could of made some of the other jarls turn their back on him put him at a huge disadvantage. He literally hates everybody who isn't a nord and given time he would get rid of everybody who is elven. Brunwolf wants to let the Argonians in to the city but can't just yet for their safety(aka pain in the ass to make it happen in game).

 

Yeah actually Maro made the deal with Astrid. It was his job to protect the emperor and you killed his son. The Emperor even claimed that Maro was arrogant for thinking that he destroyed the dark brotherhood and that he could change the Emperor's fate. Yes the Emperor mo listened to the guy he put in charge of for his personal security detail. Why wouldn't he listen to the guy who is in charge of it that would be like having no security at all.

 

Yes a stormcloak victory would be very bad for the Thalmor because then the Empire wouldn't be draining their resources on that war anymdore. They Empire could focus on rebuilding.

 

Legality of traditions lol. just because somebody was honor bound in to a bad deal because of tradition doesn't mean it was legal. Didn't he learn the thu'um from the Greybeards? If he was wouldn't he be honor bound to not abuse the power of the Thu'um? (The Dragonborn is the only one exempt from that little rule and last time I check Ulfric wasn't) If he won honorably I doubt so many people would have be angry but he didn't. He pretty much disgraced two nord traditions by being dishonorable with them. So much for a True Nord Eh

[LobselVith66]

 

wait who is the elf that is stormcloak? The only one besides the dragonborn(if you chose that race) was Captain Valmir and he wasn't a stormcloak he was a thalmor spy trying to get you to get the mask. oh and about the dunmer

 

from Scourge of the Gray Quarter

 

There is cause for optimism, though, as Jarl Ulfric is not nearly so tolerant of these substandard beings as his fathers were. Indeed, the soft hand of Hoag can be seen in the cities [sic] Argonian population as well; the fish-men, at least, have learned how to best contribute to their new home. They have proven themselves as models, toiling at the docks with utmost efficiency and bright smiles. It would do the dark elves well to pay heed to their scaly cousins. I would expect in due course that they will find themselves either contributing more directly or once again wandering the land in search of roof and warmth.

 

So you provided an example that the author, Frilgeth Horse-Breaker, is racist. What's your point, exactly? That the author has a negative view of Argonians and Dunmer? If Ulfric's message was one of intolerance against other races, why are Rolff Stone-Fist and Angrenor Once-Honored (who claims to have been a member of the Stormcloaks) both irate that the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloaks to help free Skyrim from the Empire?

 

 

The first line is the one I'd like to point out. Last thing he would want is to fight a war on two fronts. If he pissed off the Dunmer while at war with the Imperials that easily could of made some of the other jarls turn their back on him put him at a huge disadvantage. He literally hates everybody who isn't a nord and given time he would get rid of everybody who is elven. Brunwolf wants to let the Argonians in to the city but can't just yet for their safety(aka pain in the ass to make it happen in game).

 

When does Ulfric state that he hates "everyone who isn't a Nord"? When does Ulfric say anything of the sort? The fact is, Ulfric and Brunwolf basically manage the Dunmer and Argonian situation exactly the same: the Dunmer continue living in the Gray Quarter as they have for many years pre-dating Ulfric's rise to Jarl, and the Argonians can't come inside the city because the general Nord populace might attack them or worse.

 

 

Yeah actually Maro made the deal with Astrid. It was his job to protect the emperor and you killed his son. The Emperor even claimed that Maro was arrogant for thinking that he destroyed the dark brotherhood and that he could change the Emperor's fate. Yes the Emperor mo listened to the guy he put in charge of for his personal security detail. Why wouldn't he listen to the guy who is in charge of it that would be like having no security at all.

 

I don't think anyone was attacking or slandering the Emperor for trying to avoid getting assassinated.

 

 

Yes a stormcloak victory would be very bad for the Thalmor because then the Empire wouldn't be draining their resources on that war anymdore. They Empire could focus on rebuilding.

 

Not to mention the Stormcloaks' focus on dealing with the Thalmor as a primary threat.

 

 

Legality of traditions lol. just because somebody was honor bound in to a bad deal because of tradition doesn't mean it was legal. Didn't he learn the thu'um from the Greybeards? If he was wouldn't he be honor bound to not abuse the power of the Thu'um? (The Dragonborn is the only one exempt from that little rule and last time I check Ulfric wasn't) If he won honorably I doubt so many people would have be angry but he didn't. He pretty much disgraced two nord traditions by being dishonorable with them. So much for a True Nord Eh

 

No one from either side claims that using the Thu'um was illegal or that there was any restriction against it.

[djinx187]

So you provided an example that the author, Frilgeth Horse-Breaker, is racist. What's your point, exactly? That the author has a negative view of Argonians and Dunmer? If Ulfric's message was one of intolerance against other races, why are Rolff Stone-Fist and Angrenor Once-Honored (who claims to have been a member of the Stormcloaks) both irate that the Dunmer aren't joining the Stormcloaks to help free Skyrim from the Empire?

 

Ask the lady being whined at why do they think your an imperial spy. Seriously sums that up perfectly.

 

When does Ulfric state that he hates "everyone who isn't a Nord"? When does Ulfric say anything of the sort? The fact is, Ulfric and Brunwolf basically manage the Dunmer and Argonian situation exactly the same: the Dunmer continue living in the Gray Quarter as they have for many years pre-dating Ulfric's rise to Jarl, and the Argonians can't come inside the city because the general Nord populace might attack them or worse.

 

Doesn't need to state it. His actions prove it. Grey-Winter when you talk to him about help with the bandits sums it up. For Nords he will sound the horn himself if they are in trouble. Anybody who isn't a Nord gets no help what so ever. I guess actions count for nothing then.

As for the situation being the same no. I can't even remember if Ulfric mentioned repairing the Grey Quarter and trying to slowly let the Argonians like Grey-Winter does. He just keeps blabbing about the elves. The Empire was only half the problem the biggest threat to Skyrim are elves. (From Ulfrics Mouth) General tullius at least mentions the thalmor after the empire wins.

 

Not to mention the Stormcloaks' focus on dealing with the Thalmor as a primary threat.

 

Thalmor are not afraid of the Stormcloaks. You take a look where Skyrim is compared to where the Thalmor are? They just want to tie up the Empire and keep their business in Skyrim going.

 

No one from either side claims that using the Thu'um was illegal or that there was any restriction against it.

 

Dishonorable and illegal are two different things. The way he used his Thu'um and the way he challenged was dishonorable. It wasn't even single combat it was straight up murder he found a loop hole to gain an advantage and to get a message across. Honor and legality do not exist on the same playing field. Being lawful and being honorable are two separate things Ulfric is neither

Edited December 30, 2011 by djinx187

[RighthandofSithis]

It shall be interesting to see how this argument progresses from here.

 

I was wrong. The argument didn't get any more interesting.

 

If anything, it seems to have just gone back to arguing about Ulfric.

[Khorak]

Dishonorable and illegal are two different things. The way he used his Thu'um and the way he challenged was dishonorable. It wasn't even single combat it was straight up murder he found a loop hole to gain an advantage and to get a message across. Honor and legality do not exist on the same playing field. Being lawful and being honorable are two separate things Ulfric is neither

 

It seems far too easy to claim his acts were 'dishonourable', considering that the absolutely pitiful ease with which he killed Torygg was the entire point he was making. The fight could never have been fair. Ulfric is a battle hardened warrior who can wield the Thu'um....Torygg was barely capable of wielding his blade. In such a martial culture it is unforgivable that Torygg could be holding the highest title of the land, power over the entire province (supposedly), whilst possessing none of the characteristics expected of him.

 

Ulfric was explicitly showing that the High King of Skyrim was nothing more than an Imperial puppet who could not even fight for himself, let alone Skyrim. He wore a title he did not deserve and thus dishonoured it. Torygg was so beyond unable to fight that complaints about how unfair the fight was are somewhat strange, because his incredible martial incapacity was the whole point. To make the fight fair Ulfric would have had to walk into that room wearing nothing but a gag, and beat a fully armed and armoured Torygg to death with his thingymabob.

 

And having to flee afterwards kind of underlines Ulfrics point; he made a challenge in Nordic tradition over a Nordic title, in the Nordic capital, a challenge which was then legitimised by its acceptance, and was forced to flee because of Imperial jurisdiction which would have seen him in chains. He's building a rebellion on the basis that Nords are being used and culturally supressed by an Empire which is draining them dry to pay for its own weakness and failure; having to run from the Empire after following Nordic tradition just makes his followers more fervent and the Empire look oppressive of Nord culture. Ulfric may have been dishonourable by the conceptions of us, here, in the real world, with our culture, but it wasn't to the Nords. It was illegal, but again, Ulfrics point is that it is only illegal to the Empire, not by Nord tradition. Nord tradition also exalts the Thu'um, in such a way that to claim it was dishonourable for him to use it in a duel would be like claiming Mike Tyson is dishonourable to use his boxing experience to pound in the face of someone entirely unskilled who challenges him to a fight.

[djinx187]

I like you. You separated the honor and illegal part. Only thing I disagree with is the Thu'um because he went against his teachings on how to use it. Only the dragonborn is exempt from that rule. In the old days before Windcaller yes it would have been fine and dandy but all this time since then it was taught that the Thu'um is spoken only in true need. That has been the tradition. In war there is a need to use the voice to protect people's lives but in a duel against a man who you outclass? Hardly. It's also why people are bent out of shape that he shouted anyway. People learned what they know of the Thu'um through the Greybeards. It was only until Tiber Septim brought the Imperial College of the Voice to Markath which promoted the voice for war but nothing really has been written about that at all so I can even talk about that. Really wish some of this lore stuff was fixed up a bit but meh lol

[Khorak]

I like you. You separated the honor and illegal part. Only thing I disagree with is the Thu'um because he went against his teachings on how to use it. Only the dragonborn is exempt from that rule. In the old days before Windcaller yes it would have been fine and dandy but all this time since then it was taught that the Thu'um is spoken only in true need. That has been the tradition. In war there is a need to use the voice to protect people's lives but in a duel against a man who you outclass? Hardly. It's also why people are bent out of shape that he shouted anyway. People learned what they know of the Thu'um through the Greybeards. It was only until Tiber Septim brought the Imperial College of the Voice to Markath which promoted the voice for war but nothing really has been written about that at all so I can even talk about that. Really wish some of this lore stuff was fixed up a bit but meh lol

 

The thing with the Thu'um is only a Greybeard thing, and none of them have thought, "Wait a second...if we sit up here doing sod all, no-one will ever know our new philosophy."

 

The Way of the Voice doesn't exist in Skyrim as a whole, they just see the Thu'um, and they see the martial and kingly authority it carries with it. It's simple, but then...we're dealing with Nords.

[bombomb]

 

No, he ran because he knew he was guilty. Killing the High King of Skyrim is against the law. The Empire does not follow "Nordic traditions".

 

If the challenge was against the law, why did Torygg accept Ulfric's challenge as High King?

 

 

Even so, the challenge is nullified by the Emperor because they're ruling power above the High King. Torggy accepted an agreement that had no legal basis, but he ignorantly accepted the challenge.

 

The Emperor, and his supporters are intelligent enough to realize that such Nordic traditions are out-dated with civil society.

 

Ulfric ignored the fact that with the death of High King, his spouse becomes the High Queen. Why does Ulfric ignore this detail? Since Ulfric wants to usurp power , from a weakened Skyrim, the perfect place to start is eliminating the closest politcal tie the Empire has with Skyrim - the High King.

 

 

It's not "LEGAL". The Empire wouldn't be spending so much manpower to hunt him down. He's a usurper/murderer who killed his High King.

 

It was legal. Torygg accepted the challenge, no one in the court contested the legality, and even the court mage never contests that Ulfric had the right to challenge Torygg for the throne. In fact, she says that they never would have allowed him into Solitude if they knew that he was planning on challenging Torygg for the throne, but that by the time they figured it out it was already too late.

 

The Emperor contested the legality of it. That's all the legality they need. Nordic traditions are barbaric, and are not laws under the rule of the Empire. The Empire's law overrules such barbarism, and for good reason. If the Nords were allowed to follow their traditions to such extremes, how could Skyrim maintain a stable government and peace? You can't just go murdering high lords because you want a change in government.

 

 

 

 

No, the Empire plunged into Civil War because Usurp-Ulfric thought it was okay to "pick and choose" his own Nordic traditions to justify murder, and wrongful usage of his power. The Thalmor aren't torturing people to a large scale where you see concentration camps all over the place. The Thalmor mostly use espionage. This shows the Thalmor are somewhat limited in their power in conducting they're illegal search, and seizures. Ulfric's arrogance makes him takes situations like this, and b lows them out of proportions.

 

You mean Ulfric challenged Torygg for the throne, and Torygg accepted the challenge. And even Alvor, who is pro-Empire and uncle to the Imperial soldier Hadvar, addresses that the Thalmor talking people out of their homes is one of the serious problems behind the civil war and the unrest in Skyrim.

 

No, Ulfic was picking and choosing his Nordic traditions again. In death of the High King, his spouse becomes the High Queen. Apparently to Ulfric, that doesn't seem to matter. He knows the Great War weakened the relationship the Jarls had with the Empire, and with Ulfric's murder of the High King - power is up for grabs.

 

Of course, the Thalmor is a problem, but it's not as bad Ulfric's ego makes it out to be.

 

Ironically, Ulfric's civil war will end up killing the Nords for Thalmor, making their job easier..

 

 

 

 

Does Ulfric realize starting a Civil War will mostly weaken both sides, allows the Thalmor to invade? It's a classic Peloponnesian War setup, expect this time, it's the suicide of Skyrim.

 

If that was the case, the Thalmor wouldn't want a victory for either side - the dossier specifically addresses that the Thalmor don't want a Stormcloak victory for the civil war.

 

Even if the Stormcloaks win, they'll be weakened since a war of this size leads to the attrition of soldiers and supplies. Ulfric is going to need time to build his resources again ; giving the Thalmor the perfect opportunity to strike.

 

The reason why Ulfric escaped is because Roggvir diverted attention to himself. If that wasn't the case, why didn't Roggvir escape with him?

 

Roggvir opened the gate for Ulfric to leave Solitude, that's the reason Roggvir was going to be executed.

 

Roggvir could have escaped with Ulfric, however , I doubt Ulfric would have gotten far if Roggvir didn't dervert attention to himself by staying behind. Roggvir knew he could be charged with accessory to murder by opening the gates, but he stayed anyway.

 

I'm pretty sure Roggvir didn't do it to be a nice guy, but tha Ulfric manipulated him into believing what he was doing was right.

 

 

 

 

 

That doesn't seem to be the case if Ulfric was going to get his head chopped off for it. The Empire exists for this very reason, so the political system in Skyrim doesn't fall to such barbaric traditions.

 

Considering that Ulfric wants to emancipate Skyrim from the Empire, it makes perfect sense that the Empire wants to execute Ulfric before he can claim the throne as High King. And that torture chamber that the protagonist runs across at Helgen was pretty barbaric to me.

 

Ulfric's in no position to emancipate Skyrim from the Empire. Ulfric never was, and murdering your High King for your position doesn't put Ulfric to claim the throne.

 

Also, those torture chambers are full of Stormcloak soliders. Treason shouldn't be awarded, and torture is the teacher.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Of course there's corruption in the Empire. I never said there wasn't. However, the assassination of the Emperor doesn't lead to a Civil War that kills thousands of people. The Empire knows how handle situations like this peacefully, because they're civilized.

 

You realize the Empire is part of the civil war, right? Imperial soldiers are fighting Stormcloak rebels.

 

The assassination of the Emperor has nothing to do with the Civil War. Ulfric's murder of the High King leads to the Civil War. Of course, since the Empire has already practiced the peace succession of power, civil wars don't break out every time an Emperor is murdered. However, Ulfric's theocratic traditions that killing for power is the only way to secure power, war breaks out because one everyone follows this precedent. Skyrim won't survive long as a sovereign nation if threat of war continues to be a precedent when throne of High King must switch hands.

 

However, Ulfric's form of being civilized is killing anyone who disagrees, or doesn't side with him.

 

Like the Jarls Ulfric spares, their Housecarls, and even their advisors... or when he tries to spare the life of Legate Rikke, despite the fact that she is the right-hand of General Tullius.

 

So? Ulfric picks and chooses who he spares. That only makes him sadistic because he has to a find a twisted way to balance out all the blood on his hands.

 

 

Tiber Septim's Empire isn't like the rest of the civilizations before it. It's arguably one of longest lasting, and stable human civilizations in world, at this point , because it practices some of the earliest forms democracy. History has shown that democracy develops civilizations into more technologically, and culturally advanced. The Empire represents progress, a feat that Ulfric can't prove himself to live up to.

 

No, it isn't a democracy, it's an Empire. That's precisely why people refer to it as an Empire. You could argue that the Elder Council makes it an oligarchy type of empire once its monarch is killed during the Dark Brotherhood Questline, but that doesn't mean it's a democracy when the power doesn't rest with the people.

 

I'm not saying the Empire is a democracy. I'm saving the Empire has a chance to become a democracy. No nation starts as a complete democracy, but over time precedents of past leaders lead to the development of it. The Empire has already established, the right to petition, the right to vote ( however it may be limited ), and the peaceful succession of power. All these things are core principles of a democratic government, and most likely leads to it. However, Ulfric rather enforce the Nordic traditions over Skyrim, and create a theocratic form of government that idealizes Nordic supremacy over all. History has shown that these type of governments don't survive long because they can't adapt to the demands of a culturally diffusive society. Democratic societies overall are more prosperous, and beneficial to the general population.Since Skyrim moving towards that direction with the Empire, it would only make sense to follow them.

 

 

Of course he doesn't, people don't tend to admit to murder. Look at Ulfric, he's not calling his murder of civilians wrong, he's saying it's justified by Talos.... "Holy War".

 

Yes, there is evidence that Ulfric commited crimes against the Reachmen. Did you think the Reachmen left their native homelands willingly? No, Ulfric purged them from it. I doubt the Forsworn resistance would be created if some from of foul play wasn't there.

 

In other words, the Nord militia that was created by the Empire and Jarl Igmund fought against the independent kingdom established by the ruler Madanach, with Ulfric using the Voice, and the Reachmen lost. And the Forsworn want to reclaim their kingdom by taking back control of their territory.

 

I read the book for a second time. It specifically states the militia had no support from the Empire, but was under the control of Ulfric himself. Igmund's supported Ulfric because with the The Reachmen ethnically cleansed, he could seize power, with at the expense of Ulfric's and his soldiers' religious freedom.

 

Igmund had nothing to lose making the deal.

 

 

The evidence is easy to figure out. The Reachmen are the natives of the reach. The Reachmen don't live or control The Reach anymore, the Nords do.

 

Why?

 

Because the Empire and Jarl Igmund established a Nord miltia to take control of the Reach with the promise of religious freedom?

 

 

 

 

It's the other way around, Ulfric betrayed the Empire. Ulfric was too selfish to care about the needs of the general populace. If they aren't Nords, they don't deserve to have the same freedoms. The Empire's treaty with the Thalmor saved thousands, if not millions of people on both sides of war. That sounds hell of a lot better than killing Non-Nords just because you want to worship a god. Religion doesn't justify the means.

 

Where does Ulfric make this claim? I don't see or hear about Ulfric claiming that only Nords deserve freedom, or to live in Skyrim. If that was the case, I don't think he'll allow non-Nords entry into the Stormcloaks, and we can encounter at least one elven Stormcloak, and hear two very irrate Nords berate a Dunmer woman because the Dunmer aren't entering the Stormcloak army to fight for Ulfric's cause. If Ulfric didn't want non-Nords to participate, I don't imagine these two Nords would be so angry that Dunmer weren't fighting alongside the Stormcloaks to free Skyrim from the Empire.

 

Ulfric is ignoring the fact that Nords don't control Skyrim, but that Skyrim is a multicultural region. Since when is the needs of the Nords more significant than the needs of the other races that make up Skyrim? By claiming Nords deserve freedom only, he's excluding the political voices of everyone else. In sense, he is limited their freedoms by muting their say in such a drastic in government.

 

 

Also, it doesn't have to be a pure democratic structure. Empires such as the Roman and Greek Empires, had some forms of democracy, but they weren't complete democracies. The Empire allows their citizens to petition to their Jarls, and their High King. This , in fact , is a part of the democratic process. It's in fetal stages, but it devolops over time. Ulfric's solution is move Skyrim into the Dark Ages, by eliminating bureaucracy, and moving Skyrim to a more theocratic form of government.

 

An Empire lead by an Emperor and an Elder Council, or Skyrim lead by the High King and the Jarls. It doesn't seem that dissimilar to me.

 

An Empire that practices the peaceful transition power to the next Emperor and High King.

 

OR

 

A High King , who murdered the previous High King to get the political leverage he needed to cause a rebellion - it is a lot different.

 

 

 

The Empire also can release particular citizens. They're are some people within the Empire that have influence over the Thalmor, like General Tillus and the Emperor.

 

Does the Emperor or General Tullius release a prisoner from Thalmor custody throughout the entire narrative?

 

During the quest "Season Unending" the player can release Thalmar Grey-Mane by bring up his name during the peace talks. So, yeah, it is possible.

 

 

Justiciars can't go around killing anybody they want to, they have to have probably reason.

 

However, in your case, there can be exceptions, but the most part you don't see Thalmor marching around like Nazis. The people of your exception should be treated individually.

 

I didn't realize saying "I can worship whoever I want to" was probable cause for the Thalmor to commit attempt to kill someone.

 

Maybe because you're the Dragonborn? There's more reasons why they want to kill you ya know....

 

 

The citizens of the Empire don't really know for sure that they want Usurp-Ulfric telling them what to do, instead of an Empire that has already proven itself to be more economically, and politically stable.

 

For Ulfric, if they don't agree with him or side with him - perish.

 

The people do know what they want - some want the Empire, like Hadvar and Alvor, and others want to emancipate Skyrim, like Ralof and Gerdur.

 

And if you're going to keep claiming that Ulfric will simply kill anyone who disagrees with him, can you provide some evidence to back it up?

 

 

I've already provided evidence.

 

He killed High King Torygg because he disagreed with his position on White-Gold Concordat. You've implied this through the entire arguement.

 

He attacked a netural town - Whiterun, which kills innocent people in the process. His second hand man, Stone-Fist even says "let them die with their false kings".

 

Finally, he kills General Tillus and Legate Rikku who obviously doesn't agree with him.

 

His actions speak louder than his rhetoric.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brunwolf states he has plans to integrate Argonians into the city.

 

Brunwolf says he can't allow the Argonians into Windhelm because it would be dangerous for them. He doesn't seem to give any indication that he'll permit them to enter the city.

 

[b] Brunwolf says in due time he will, but he can't at the moment because realizes you can't change the hearts of men and women over-night. It takes time....

[/b]

 

For so long, under Ulfric, they've been discriminated against , and their relationship with Nords is extremely fragile to point they haven't start killing each other. Of course Ulfric can't remove the Dunmer, he's fighting a losing war, and he needs man power fighting, instead of removing people. If he does get into the right political atmosphere, Ulfric will remove Dunmer, being pressured by his echleon to.

 

So despite the fact that Ulfric has full control over Windhelm, command of his own rebel army and over the guards, you're claiming that Ulfric isn't removing the Dunmer because he's fighting a "losing war"? He could simply order the guards to take care of it. Ulfric doesn't. If he did, I don't think Nords would wonder why Dunmer aren't participating on behalf of the Stormcloak cause.

 

The Empire has a bigger army than Ulfric, so he must reallocate soldiers protecting the city to the war front. This leads to crime in Windhelm to run rampant. A perfect example of this is Carlixto's killing spree, which is ignored until the Dragonborn's intervention. The guard spear-heading the capture of Carlixto himself mentions they don't have the soldiers to track Carlixto because they're in war with the Empire. Ulfric simply doesn't have the manpower to police is own city, and fight the war at the same time.

 

 

Also, your opinion that since there's one eleven Stormcloak, there must be no racism?

 

Of course there's racism - there's racism everywhere. Stormcloaks, Legion, Skyrim, Cyrodiil. Throughout Tamriel. However, your claim that Ulfric is focused on a racist goal doesn't seem to have merit when non-Nords can enter the Stormcloaks, and he never seems to explicitly state any goals of removing non-Nords from Skyrim. Ulfric repeartedly addresses that his foe is the Thalmor, as does his second in command.

 

 

That's not true, a perfect real life example of this is African Americans who served in the Vietnam War. Even after Harry Truman's integration of the armed forces, after World War II, African Americans still were not consider as equal as their white comrades. Elves may be able to join the Stormcloaks, but that doesn't mean they'll be treated equally.

 

And Skyrim, like much of Cyrodiil, deals with racism, that much is true.

 

 

So, Ulfric represents no progress towards racial equality? Ok, so that's fine if Ulfric wants to discriminate non-Nords because they're subhuman. I don't agree with that at all, and I don't think anybody in their right mind should. Just because racism is universal Elder Scroll Series doesn't make it right.

 

Given that Brunwolf can't provide any resources to the Gray Quarter and won't allow the Argonians into the city, you could say the same for the Legion appointed Jarl. Ulfric is focused on the war, and I don't hear him saying that he has any plans to eradicate anyone simply for not being a Nord or for not siding with him. He makes a point of intentionally sparing the Jarl of Whiterun, and he stresses that he would prefer to avoid bloodshed.

 

Brunwolf can't provide any resources because his processor Ulfric depleted most of Windhelm's resources with his war with the Empire. Brunwolf, who is put in place immediately after Ulfric , didn't have enough time to deal with the battle scars on an already impoverished Windhelm.

 

 

 

They live on the Docks because Ulfric refuses to let them in...

 

So does Brunwolf. For all his progressive talk about the Dunmer and non-Nords, he doesn't actually do anything differently than Ulfric when he becomes Jarl.

 

Again, Brunwolf states he can't do it overnight. Unlike Ulfric, who thinks he can force his will on other people because Nords are better than everyone else, Brunwolf understand the racial turnmoil caused by Ulfric's ignorance.

 

Brunwolf wants to slowly integrate the Argonians back into the city to insure the welfare of the city. Once Brunwolf has had the time to develop his role has Jarl, he'll have the political leverage needed to allow them into the city gates freely.

 

 

 

That doesn't make any sense because we're talking about the Dunmer being allowed to live inside Windhelm, not Skyrim.

 

It makes perfect sense when you listen to the Dunmer of the Gray Quarter, and they tell you that they left Morrowind right after the eruption of Red Mountain - an event that transpired nearly a century ago.

 

Again, that supports why High King Torggy mandated the Dunmer live in Windhelm. Dunmer needed refugee inside Windhelm, and since Windhelm is the closest city, according the Dunmer of the Gray quarter, it makes sense they would go there. Ulfric wasn't too happy with Torggy's decision since it doesn't align itself with his bigotry. However, at the time , Ulfric didn't have the leverage to challenge the ruling.

 

The Dunmer have political ties with the Aldermiri Dominion, and Torggy's mandate was to appease the Thalmor by satisfying them. Satisfying the Thalmor keeps the peace, and protects the people of Skyrim from the threat of a Thalmor invasion.

 

 

Weird, because the Jarl of Igmund doesn't think so, and Ulfric takes pride in it.

 

Neither Igmund nor Ulfric claim that the Nord militia killed Reachmen citizens. It's addressed that the militia reclaimed the Reach for the Empire. I don't doubt that innocent people were killed, but it's another matter entirely to say that the Empire, Igmund, or Ulfric were personally and intentionally responsible for the deaths of innocent people. You're conglating the fact that Ulfric and the militia reclaimed the Reach with the "Bear of Markarth" book that is, apparently, factually inaccurate since a myraid of people living in the Reach contest its claims.

 

Ulfric's milita wasn't sanctioned by the Empire, but himself and his bigot believers. Igmund himself says Ulfric's militia went to war with the natives, and removed them from their land. Militias aren't made to peacefully remove people, but to use violence to. The fact that Ulfric's militia forcibly removed all traces of the native culture , the Forsworn, from their land indicates that a degree of genocide did take place.

 

Whiterun guards aren't legionnaire soldiers.

 

Whiterun guards are fighting alongside Legion soldiers because Ulfric is looking to depose Balgruuf. By claiming that Ulfric and the Stormcloaks are simply slaughtering innocent guards, you're misrepresenting what actually transpired.

 

Whiterun is neutral, even with Legion soldiers, since Jarl Balgruuf accepts them as a gift from General Tillus to balance his odds against Ulfric's invasion.

 

You're forgetting that Ulfric has no political authority to challenge the sovereignty of another city.

 

The High King or High Queen has that ability because the Jarls of each city swear fealty to him or her.

 

As a Jarl, Ulfric owes his fealty to Jarl Elisif, the High Queen of Skyrim.

 

 

Whiterun is also neutral before Ulfric's invasion.

 

Ulfric exiles Balgruuf to humiliate him, and the Empire.

 

Depending on who you side with, Ulfric also tries to make peace with Balgruuf to avoid a battle by giving him his axe.

 

That doesn't make any sense because Balgruuf wasn't at war with Ulfric. Balgruuf was a neutral Jarl, but Ulfric's threat of war encouraged him to take the best possible route, and to accept General Tillus' legionaries.

 

Ulfric's attitude of "if you're not with me, you're against me" doesn't make it right to force neutrals to join sides with him.

 

If he can manipulate them, yeah...

 

If Ulfric was as racist as you claim, wouldn't he avoid making any non-Nord a Stormcloak? In fact, the proprietor of Falkreath is accepting of non-Nords because of his time with the Stormcloaks.

 

The proprietor of Falkreath isn't Ulfric Stormcloak, so that doesn't make any sense...

 

 

Tullius surrenders, Ulfric still kills him.

 

Tullius loses the battle. The same is true if the Dragonborn sides with Tullius against Ulfric.

 

Ulfric murdered King Torggy , and lead an insurrection against his own people.

 

General Tullius never committed such treason, so there's no valid reason for him to be killed by Ulfric.

 

General Tullius gives Ulfric due process of what crimes he's being charged with, before he kills him. Ulfric doesn't give Tullis anything , but a sad story of "I won, so I was right, and you lost so you was wrong".

 

The victor writes history, but doesn't mean the victor has to confess to the innocent blood on his hands.

 

 

Ulfric the Usurp had no where to run, and what decoy? We're talking about the real Emperor. Unless, the one at the end of the Dark Broterhood storyline was a decoy too... if you say so...

 

The decoy of the Emperor who we encounter prior to killing the real Emperor. Clearly, the Emperor didn't simply accept his fate, unless you are suggesting that one of his subordinates ordered him to accept a decoy?

 

Yeah, I know that. The thing is, Maro conspired with Astrid to trap the listener. You can argue Maro was simply doing his job of protecting the Emperor, and not the Emperor running from his fate.

 

Ironically, there's evidence of Ulfric working for the Thalmor. There's a dossier , inside the Thalmor Embassy , that states Ulfric was one of their espionage contacts inside the Empire. Who's to say Ulfric isn't softening up Skyrim so the Thalmor can take over?

 

The Civil War doesn't help any side militarily, but it does seem to be helping the Thalmor.

 

The dossier claims that Ulfric refuses to take orders, and that a Stormcloak victory in Skyrim would be bad news for the Thalmor.

 

Ulfric picks and chooses what orders he wants to follow. That's nothing new, but obviously the Civil War wasn't something Ulfric came up with on his own if in the dossier the Thalmor mentions carefully reallocating resources to him.

 

Perhaps the Thalmor had dumb luck, and Ulfric did start a Civil War, but to manipulate his own interests.

 

Either way, a Civil War doesn't help Skyrim. In the end, Ulfric is fighting two wars - one with the Thalmor and the Empire - if he manages to push them out.

 

More innocents are going to die.

 

The thing is the Empire has already exerted control over those regions, with acceptance , however Ulfric's attitude puts him in the position in which he can extend Nord control over all Tamriel, obviously not peacefully.

 

You mean, the same kind of "acceptance" that we see in Skyrim - with war, bloodshed, and soldiers? And you can make the same claim of the Empire, and the surrounding territory. The difference is, it's actually brought up by Legion soldiers that the Empire might invade another nation - specifically, Morrowind.

 

The civil war in Skyrim is caused by Ulfric's murder of the High King. So, he is to blame for the internal conflict.

 

The sad part is, the Empire sent thousands of their soldiers to their deaths to protect Skyrim from the tyrants of the Thalmor... only see another tyrant bigot take it from them.

 

And Morrowind? Without the Empire's protection, didn't they get invaded by the Argonians?