Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

Yes, I have thought that myself. And my comment was not about how strong the Thalmor are or were, but how strong they were percieved to be.

 

However, their cunning is part of strategy. Along with their quick capture of various cities surrounding the Imperial City.

 

But I find it hard to believe that they are mostly powerless, they would have a number of trained soldiers, and still would prove to be a military threat.

 

Compare to Nazi Germany. They were not as advanced as people think, but still they were a great threat.

[sukeban]

@Sithis

 

Most definitely. I didn't mean to sound as though I was writing them off as weaklings vis-a-vis the Empire, just to add that they'd definitely have to work for it if they were really serious about conquering them (which we can probably assume that they are).

 

One thought that I have always had with regard to Skyrim is that, given that a DLC expansion against the Thalmor is almost a necessity, how exactly would that be implemented in the game? Skyrim is one of the best defensively positioned regions in Tamriel. The Thalmor couldn't go through Hammerfell, nor through Cyrodiil, nor Morrowind. They could invade through High Rock if they conquered it first, but then the Nords would be aware of what was coming and could ready their defenses along an already brutal mountain range. Seems to me that only really leaves the western coast (near their fort) left for a sneak attack. Perhaps they'd besiege and take Solitude, but if the Stormcloaks prevailed in the Civil War (which I think will probably be canon), that would hardly be the end of the world.

 

Or, would they concentrate on taking Cyrodiil first and then turn to Skyrim? Would the anti-Thalmor DLC actually be set back in the Imperial City, etc. with you, the Dragonborn, as the Empire's eventual savior (even if you chose Stormcloak)? Given that you are Dragonborn and that the Empire is sorely in need of a legitimate monarch, the player character seems like a great fit for the job. So, if this were to happen, the player character could follow in the steps of Talos, leading a mighty Nord (Stormcloak) army to reestablish the Empire after the defeat of the Thalmor in Cyrodiil.

 

In any case, that is my pseudo-prediction/hope for upcoming DLC :D Apologies if it's OT. Definitely don't want to have to wait for TES VI for resolution of the Thalmor issue.

Edited February 22, 2012 by sukeban

[RighthandofSithis]

An invasion into Skyrim would be almost impossible. The Bretons would be able to defend themselves (Cite the Camaron Usurper). Obviously Hammerfell would be able to defend itself (and even if it was taken in battle, the Redguards would forge a resistance group). Probably the easiest way to invade Skyrim (and likely only way) would be if the Empire collapsed, and the Dominion advanced through Cyrodiil. But even then, the Thalmor would have to occupy Cyrodiilic cities, and then brave the treacherous mountain passes (Hannibal tried this, and he ended up with 20000 African soldiers out of 100000 [his success was a combination of recruiting local mercenaries, his brilliant tactical ability, and Roman lack of tactics]), and they would have to go straight past an occupied Fort and/or Riften.

 

But I think the Thalmor will not be a resolved problem until either A. A modding community takes the job. Or B. A future TES game. personally like having the Thalmor around. Gives me something to look forward to. But I would like to repel and Invasion by them in game.

 

And my Username can be shortened to RHoS if you'd like.

[StormHammer81]

@Jackal2233

 

Hey Jackal, this is bigmagy1981 here and I noticed your dilemma.

 

In short, it's a b*tch and certainly there will be good/bad Consequences no matter who you choose.

 

My advice is to just take your time, do the main quest and explore, explore, explore. Talk to both sides, read all the books, in essence, "walk the untraveled road". You can wait until "Season Unending" to decide, although I would go take each side's "entrance exam" first, while at a lower lvl, say 10 or no later than 15. Because you do not want to wait and say, "Oh well, I want to be in the Legion after all" and then wait until after lvl 20 to go waltzing in to Fort Hraagstad. It will not end well unless you're an Orc.

 

That's probably one reason why Beth gives us a choice early in the game of who to leave Helgen with, so we can get "introduced" to each side and what they're about.

 

Based on your starter post, I think you have a fair and accurate opinion of each Civil War faction. What you need, is a heart-felt reason for supporting one side or the other. For me, Ulric attacking Whiterun (a neutral city / bystander) and then... threatening to shove a sword thru Jarl Baalgruf's gut was enough for me to run straight to Windhelm (after recovering from shock and awe at the arrogance going on in that room). Not to mention if I'm Thane of Whiterun, why in the hell would I want to attack my own city?

 

Listen, talk and read as much as possible. Sometimes things are not always as they appear to be and I would urge you not to be deceived.

 

Usually, the best way to resolve a Complex problem, is to not try and directly approach the problem itself. Stop and take a breather, look back to the beginning FIRST, then later on come back to the problem.

 

Many, many, many players have joined the Stormcloaks over the banning of Talos, yet ignore the racism aspect of their cause and how non-Nords will be affected by Ulfric usurping the throne. Take a good long look at Solitude. Now look at Windhelm. If Ulfric is victorious, Skyrim will probably end up looking like Windhelm, in more ways than one too.

 

There are many secrets hidden in that Dossier on Ulfric Storcloak, like the real reason why Elenwen went to Helgen... think I'll leave these for you to decipher.

 

It seems to me, most of the benefits of the Stormcloaks rebellion are short-term and very self-serving. The Empire is playing the long game, which I feel might be best because elves think in long-terms. Titus Mede II (TMII) will eventually resign, then the Dragonborn, who by all indications is an heir to Talos can take the throne if he/she wishes. Be careful what people say about TM II. His father was incompetent, however, there are clues and signs which indicate that TMII actually did what he thought was best for the Empire.

 

Personally, I do not feel that... the Empire's losses are as grave and dire as Ulfric and the Stormcloaks would seem to think. Please remember that this is personal for Ulfric and he wants VENGEANCE over some of his experiences, being led to Civil War by emotion and forsaking his own duties as Jarl. Ulfric *may* have possibly been justified in the duel, however he is committing treason against his own country by not allowing the moot to meet until he has his people in place. From the beginning of the game, Ulfric's followers primary goal is to make him High King. Skyrim comes second, consider the oath you must take to join the Stormcloaks, how you are bound to serve Ulfric, even in death. Now consider said oath for the Empire, where you are bound to the Emperor and thus, to every citizen in the Empire.

 

Which seems right to you?

 

Good luck to you and I hope this helps. Though this is some pretty high-level content, you're best best is to just keep exploring and see what you can come up with yourself. :thumbsup:

 

"I know it's not easy to join up with the Legion after almost being executed, but the Imperial Legion needs your help right now with that dragon out there somewhere and Ulfric Stormcloak back on the loose. I think you'll see in the end that the Legion is Skyrim's best hope for real peace right now. I know you'll make the right choice in the end." :D

 

Later!

Edited February 7, 2013 by bigmagy1981

[Kayyyleb]

Ignoring the Thalmor completely just to simplify things I'll give some tangible in-game reasons why I choose the Empire every time. I have never chosen the Stormcloaks (couldn't stomach it honestly), but the face of Skyrim after the war ends to me justifies my choice completely.

 

Dawnstar: Skald is by far the worst jarl in Skyrim. Irrationally blames the dragons' return on the Empire, warmongering maniac who wants to send all his city guard to fight in the war for "glory" instead of protecting his people from dragons, harasses and threatens anyone against him in virtually identical fashion as the Thalmor themselves. Not one person in Dawnstar I've found likes him in the least.

 

Windhelm: Talk to the Dunmer and Argonians before then after the Empire wins and you'll understand the true racism of the Stormcloaks and their esteemed Ulfric. Life as a Nord in Windhelm was decent but other races are treated like 2nd class citizens. The much more cosmopolitan Empire begins to turn this around immediately. Ending the Ulfric-endorsed Stormcloak racism doesn't harm the native Nords at all (besides being butthurt over losing the war), but vastly improves the lives of the other races living there.

 

Winterhold: Korir hates the college and makes no secret about it. He blames them for the Collapse (unknown if it's their fault but they deny it) and strains the relationship with them. This is essentially willfully alienating half his hold's population and literally the only reason for it's further existence at all. It takes a special kind of stupid to hate the only people in Winterhold that are responsible for him even having a hold to be jarl over at all. He is closed-minded and stuck in his divisive ways. His replacement works to mend relations with the college and work to the benefit of both the college and Winterhold. The latter approach is obviously much better for Winterhold in both the short and long term.

 

Riften: This is the only case where technically things are "worse" under the Empire. However, replacing Laila with Maven was little more than a technicality anyways as Maven already controlled everything in Riften including Laila. Laila is ignorant and willingly so. She surrounds herself with advisors who tell her what she wants to hear rather than face reality. She is completely ignorant and thus powerless to stop the corruption and crime in Riften because she refuses to acknowledge it at all. Even if the Empire did appoint a different jarl than Maven, it still likely wouldn't change the deep-rooted problems Riften faces behind the scenes.

[matthias5770]

This was my first TES game, so when I first started and saw Imperials I flipped out "holy s*** its rome omgomgomg"

 

So I joined the Imperials. (even thought they "tried" to kill me)

 

That aside, having done both at least 3+ times, I prefer Imperials. Not only do I prefer the look of Imperial guards over Stormcloak ones, I also prefer Imperial leaders. Tulius is quite reasonable, and wants a practical solution (if he could, he wouldn't fight the stormcloaks). He has the same dislike towards the Thalmor, he just has better self control than Ulfic. Not to mention that Ulfric just feels like a douche when I talk to him. Also, freaking racist ****s. Dunmer are awesome, and you are bad for hating them and you should feel bad.

 

The ONLY reason I see for joining the Stormcloaks is the house you get (which can be obtained by other means, it's just easiest if you join the Stormcloaks) and the cool Stormcloak officer armor. Also obtainable as Imperials, just takes longer.

 

Plus having played MW now, I think the legion is awesome.

Edited February 7, 2013 by matthias5770

[kradus]

The fact that the Thalmor haven't attacked the empire doesn't mean they're weak, it means they want to do it right.

The Dominion dealt a significant blow to the empire with their surprise attack, but the element of surprise is gone. So attacking the empire again without such a tactical advantage would be foolish. That's why, lorewise, the thalmor have been inciting rebelion (persecuting Talos worshipers, Elenwen's torture and release of Ulfric - a prominent Jarl,...) In order to weaken the empire from within, so they can have absolute victory in a future war.

This is why I believe that by fighting the empire, I would be doing the Thalmor a favor, and why I would rather fight the stormcloaks and put them down quickly, so the empire can focus on the true enemy.

Edited February 7, 2013 by kradus

[zombierelic]

An invasion into Skyrim would be almost impossible. The Bretons would be able to defend themselves (Cite the Camaron Usurper). Obviously Hammerfell would be able to defend itself (and even if it was taken in battle, the Redguards would forge a resistance group). Probably the easiest way to invade Skyrim (and likely only way) would be if the Empire collapsed, and the Dominion advanced through Cyrodiil. But even then, the Thalmor would have to occupy Cyrodiilic cities, and then brave the treacherous mountain passes (Hannibal tried this, and he ended up with 20000 African soldiers out of 100000 [his success was a combination of recruiting local mercenaries, his brilliant tactical ability, and Roman lack of tactics]), and they would have to go straight past an occupied Fort and/or Riften.

 

But I think the Thalmor will not be a resolved problem until either A. A modding community takes the job. Or B. A future TES game. personally like having the Thalmor around. Gives me something to look forward to. But I would like to repel and Invasion by them in game.

 

And my Username can be shortened to RHoS if you'd like.

 

While you do have a good point with the Hannibal example what you're forgetting is he was basically on his own on all but a exodus, the Dominion could scout/map/build supply lines over time. Also you seem to be assuming it all has to happen quickly, any of the things mentioned could happen over the course of years, decades, even centuries.

 

Also as a minor side note you mention they "have" to take the cities to go through Cyrodiil, but at least from what I've seen they could just as easily do a imitation of Genghis Khan and simply wipe out anyone in there path that didn't surrender which they certainly would have only minor issue with having no real threat beside the collapsing/collapsed empire and may even favor due to the racial superiority they seem to be embracing.

[893kira]

Ignoring the Thalmor completely just to simplify things I'll give some tangible in-game reasons why I choose the Empire every time. I have never chosen the Stormcloaks (couldn't stomach it honestly), but the face of Skyrim after the war ends to me justifies my choice completely.

 

Dawnstar: Skald is by far the worst jarl in Skyrim. Irrationally blames the dragons' return on the Empire, warmongering maniac who wants to send all his city guard to fight in the war for "glory" instead of protecting his people from dragons, harasses and threatens anyone against him in virtually identical fashion as the Thalmor themselves. Not one person in Dawnstar I've found likes him in the least.

 

Windhelm: Talk to the Dunmer and Argonians before then after the Empire wins and you'll understand the true racism of the Stormcloaks and their esteemed Ulfric. Life as a Nord in Windhelm was decent but other races are treated like 2nd class citizens. The much more cosmopolitan Empire begins to turn this around immediately. Ending the Ulfric-endorsed Stormcloak racism doesn't harm the native Nords at all (besides being butthurt over losing the war), but vastly improves the lives of the other races living there.

 

Winterhold: Korir hates the college and makes no secret about it. He blames them for the Collapse (unknown if it's their fault but they deny it) and strains the relationship with them. This is essentially willfully alienating half his hold's population and literally the only reason for it's further existence at all. It takes a special kind of stupid to hate the only people in Winterhold that are responsible for him even having a hold to be jarl over at all. He is closed-minded and stuck in his divisive ways. His replacement works to mend relations with the college and work to the benefit of both the college and Winterhold. The latter approach is obviously much better for Winterhold in both the short and long term.

 

Riften: This is the only case where technically things are "worse" under the Empire. However, replacing Laila with Maven was little more than a technicality anyways as Maven already controlled everything in Riften including Laila. Laila is ignorant and willingly so. She surrounds herself with advisors who tell her what she wants to hear rather than face reality. She is completely ignorant and thus powerless to stop the corruption and crime in Riften because she refuses to acknowledge it at all. Even if the Empire did appoint a different jarl than Maven, it still likely wouldn't change the deep-rooted problems Riften faces behind the scenes.

 

Nice list but don't forget Falkreath it also have the worst Jarl, Imperial just put a young Jarl with no experience in leading and relying too much to his steward. This jarl is just a typical Jarl. Seriously the freaking steward do all the jobs in the Holds. Also with Morthal believing in her hocus focus prediction in her vision not aware a freaking vampire wants to turn her hold in to a feast.

 

Seems Jarls are just figurehead in Skyrim they don't do s***, Only steward do all the work. Also steward seems doesn't listen to Jarl. Seriously the freaking steward scamming you to buy a freaking crappy hole property and give low bounty reward.

Edited February 7, 2013 by 893kira

[ZagreustheLiar]

Ignoring the Thalmor completely just to simplify things I'll give some tangible in-game reasons why I choose the Empire every time. I have never chosen the Stormcloaks (couldn't stomach it honestly), but the face of Skyrim after the war ends to me justifies my choice completely.

 

Dawnstar: Skald is by far the worst jarl in Skyrim. Irrationally blames the dragons' return on the Empire, warmongering maniac who wants to send all his city guard to fight in the war for "glory" instead of protecting his people from dragons, harasses and threatens anyone against him in virtually identical fashion as the Thalmor themselves. Not one person in Dawnstar I've found likes him in the least.

 

Windhelm: Talk to the Dunmer and Argonians before then after the Empire wins and you'll understand the true racism of the Stormcloaks and their esteemed Ulfric. Life as a Nord in Windhelm was decent but other races are treated like 2nd class citizens. The much more cosmopolitan Empire begins to turn this around immediately. Ending the Ulfric-endorsed Stormcloak racism doesn't harm the native Nords at all (besides being butthurt over losing the war), but vastly improves the lives of the other races living there.

 

Winterhold: Korir hates the college and makes no secret about it. He blames them for the Collapse (unknown if it's their fault but they deny it) and strains the relationship with them. This is essentially willfully alienating half his hold's population and literally the only reason for it's further existence at all. It takes a special kind of stupid to hate the only people in Winterhold that are responsible for him even having a hold to be jarl over at all. He is closed-minded and stuck in his divisive ways. His replacement works to mend relations with the college and work to the benefit of both the college and Winterhold. The latter approach is obviously much better for Winterhold in both the short and long term.

 

Riften: This is the only case where technically things are "worse" under the Empire. However, replacing Laila with Maven was little more than a technicality anyways as Maven already controlled everything in Riften including Laila. Laila is ignorant and willingly so. She surrounds herself with advisors who tell her what she wants to hear rather than face reality. She is completely ignorant and thus powerless to stop the corruption and crime in Riften because she refuses to acknowledge it at all. Even if the Empire did appoint a different jarl than Maven, it still likely wouldn't change the deep-rooted problems Riften faces behind the scenes.

 

Do you really want me to start on Siddgeir, the drunken incompetent who insinuates that the Nords should ally with the Thalmor against the Empire. He is replaced by Dengeir, who's throne he usurped unlawfully in collusion with the Imperials in the first place. How about Jarl Idgrod, who ignores the day-to-day concerns of governance in favor of arcane dabbling and has nothing but contempt for the concerns of her people, who is replaced by Sorli the Builder (quite an auspicious name), the only Jarl who actually spends significant time outside her longhouse, getting to know her people and their concerns. Jarl Igmund is much like Laila, an unoffensive but a wholly incapable politician who acts as an unwitting figure head for the Silver-Bloods, he is replaced by Thongvor Silver-Blood, a man of stalwart political and ecclesiastical integrity who despite his name, is uninvolved in the corruption and crimes that his younger brother wreaks on the hold.

 

And why not Jarl Elisif herself, a pampered brat who knows even less of ruling than Laila and Igmund and is a willing puppet for her foreign Imperial masters, her only real act of governance being the banning of a harmless play.