Imperial VS Stormcloak

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Except many NPCs in the game mention that The Thalmor WEREN'T doing that until Ulfric came along and starting throwing a temper tantrum.

 

The Empire had actually gotten The Thalmor into a relative pigeonhole of them not actually being able to enforce the WGC, and it was only because of Ulfric's uprising that The Thalmor were given a chance to exploit the treaty, and actually be able to do that.

Calling this a "Temper Tantrum" shows how little you truly understand about this conflict. Hes fighting religious oppression and heavy taxation and misrepresentation of his people. Calling that a "Temper Tantrum" is just childish.

 

Our founding fathers (using your words) threw a temper tantrum when (assuming your American) the Brittish increased taxes by a few percent. We felt misrepresented and we went to war.

 

The Nords have 100 more reasons than we ever did. I dont understand how ignorant you imperials really are. Blindly ignorant. In this case Ignorance is not bliss but the opposite.

 

 

Ulfric Stormcloak: "I fight for the men I've held in my arms, dying on foreign soil. I fight for their wives and children whose names I heard whispered in their last breath. I fight for we few who did come home, only to find our country full of strangers wearing familiar faces. I fight for my people, impoverished to pay the debts of an Empire to weak to rule them, yet brands them criminals for wanting to rule themselves. I fight so that all the fighting I've already done hasn't been for nothing. I fight . . . because I must."

 

Galmar Stone-fist: "Your words give voice to what we all feel Ulfric. And thats why you will be High King. But the day words are enough will be the day when soldiers like us are no longer needed."

 

Ulfric Stormcloak: "I would gladly retire from the world, were such a day to dawn."

 

Galmar Stone-fist: "Aye, but in the meantime we have a war to plan."

Edited February 16, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[kradus]

Forum terrorism. Please keep your posts short and accurate if you expect a discussion.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

These are, yes, long and accurate. I have his dialogue memorized so no attempt at paraphrasing will go unnoticed.

 

If someone wants a discussion they need to be willing to here the truth, If they cant handle it then there is no point in discussing.

 

Forum terrorism? How childish. My question for you is why would it be considered terrorism to say the truth.

 

For me this is becoming very heated.

 

I just want everyone to be honest. I have been, or have been trying my hardest to be, honest.

 

I want to do my best to avoid attacking someone on a topic other than this discussion. If I do I apologize.

Edited February 16, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[kradus]

Because you're filling the thread with inconsequential info, like when you spent 30 lines explaining the difference between rebelion and civil war.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

The truth must be spoken.

 

That was a tad bit necessary but It happened, ill admit that.

 

But when it comes to right and wrong ill take all the space I have to.

[RighthandofSithis]

The persintent and voluntary ignorance here never fails to blow my mind.

The empire is dying? Then, why would breaking it appart and leave a weakened cyrodill for the Thalmor be a good idea? Cyrodill is the hearth of tamriel, it separates hammerfell and skyrim from Valenwood and Elsweyr, so if the Dominion holds it, they'll have the tactical advantage, especially since they can invade Hammerfell and HighRock by sea. You'd also be giving up all Cyrodillic soldiers for any future campaigns, and unlike ^ said, Most legions are stationed in Cyrodill, the one in skyrim is just a fraction of what the empire has. Thats also the reason the stormcloaks haven't been defeated yet.

You falsely acuse the empire of poor leadership, when unlike a certain someone, they actually put some brain into their decisions. Sending more legions to skyrim means weakening the border against the Dominion, and it would be seriously stupid to let the Dominion walk in and pillage again. By the way, the empire was winnigng before the dragons came in.

And the only thing that's making the empire sick, is the stormcloak rebelion. That's the kind of thing that weakens the millitary and economy. Cyrodill, once the wealthiest land in the empire, suffered great loses in the great war, but that's thalmor doing. Without rebelion the empire can only grow stronger, not weaker.

These are some of huge fallacies born from a void of arguments by people desperatly trying to justify their attraction for the braveheart rebel stereotype. I mean, grow up, shut up, and look at the circunstances at which the civil war started.

It's no secret that Elenwhen tortured Ulfric, and released him after his father died, and he became Jarl. Knowing that, you're all as much Thalmor puppets as he is, falling prey to your own emotions.

 

Ulfric is not the best military leader by any means, he fell into Tulliu's ambush, and decided to fight a war that ultimately will bring the destruction of his own people by thalmor hands. The argument is right there, stop ignoring the obvious. You can fight for your people, but fight your actual enemy, not your only allies.

 

As far as imperial opression goes, it was the WTG concordat that bought the empire time to rebuild. If not for that, stormcloaks wouldn't even have had a chance to rebell. If you chose death over a bad peace, that's your problem, but makig that choice for all mankind makes you either dumb or mad. And if stormcloaks are so appaled by opressors, why are you following one? Or are you going to ignore Ulfric's deeds as well? The same goes for tradition, "Damn the moot!", sounds familiar? Most nords and Jarls don't want Ulfric for a king, knowing this, he starts a war to replace the Jarls and manipulate tradition for his own aims, rather than accept the decision of the majority.

 

Well, I'm sorry if I've come across as aggressive, but please, don't turn this into a flame war.

 

From my study of a few empires (Rome, Britain, Russia, Byzantium, the Ottomans etc), I find that Empires go through several periods. Notably a rise, in which the Empire is seen as an unbeatable force, equilibrium, where the Empire is a powerful force, exhibiting its dominance, and fall, in which the EMpire looses its grasp of its territories,and prestige, and eventually collapses.

 

The EMpire has seen its rise under tiber, its equilibrium under the Septims, and is now falling under the Medes. Given that ever since the end of the Oblivion crisis, it was evident that the Empire was about to crumble, and slowly, it did. The Great War quickly accelerated this decline (with the loss of Hammerfell, ruined Cyrodiil, ruined economy etc). This decline is only corroborated by Cicero's accounts of the events within Cyrodiil.

 

So, why leave cyrodiil for the Thalmor? As i said, it won't be. All of its border cities will fall into their respective spheres of influence.

 

And again, the issue of military. Yes the Legion is probably bigger than Skyrim's forces. However, economically, the Empire is defunct. It was clear after the last War, that the Empire's treasury had been spent (as seen in the Markarth incident), and with the Gang Wars and chaos described by Cicero, along with the conflict in Skyrim, it would be reasonable to assume that the Empire hasn;t had the chance to recover much from such a devestating event.

 

I accused the Empire of poor leadership because of the WGC. Why bend knee to the Thalmor compeltly. Titus and his advisors could have easily recognised the Dominion needed peace as much as the Empire did, and thus demanded fairer terms. But instead, they betray Hammerfell and ban Talos.

 

Now, as a revolutionary myself, I really don't see the attraction to the 'stop rebelling, we can rebuild' argument. From my ral life perspective (ie, not as a stormcloak), it is a ploy to secure the power of the ruling class. But as a historian, the very presence of rebellion is further evidence that the Empire is dying. Revolutionaries don't listen to such arguments, and will not simply bend knee to the ruling class.

 

Also, you seem to be getting facts about Ulfric wrong again. Ulfric was released during the great war, then recaptured in Markarth, then released again after his father died. And if you are implying he is a thalmor puppet, his hatred of the thalmor indicates otherwise (aswell as his uncopoerative status).

 

And well, lets talk about the revolutionary situation shall we. i think I'll just quote myself from a previous statement:

 

"A revolution is impossible without a revolutionary situation; furthermore, not every revolutionary situation leads to revolution."

-Vladimir Lenin

 

The Stormcloak Revolution seems to be more than a war for independence. It is also a class war between the ruling class (the Imperial nobility) and the Nordic nobility, so I think the above quote by Lenin is actually relevant to the issue in Skyrim.

 

A revolutionary situation is a situation where a revolution is possible. IRL a revolutionary situation would see the common people crushed under the weight of a collapsing system. Take for example Greece. The Austerity measures are meant to save the Greek economy, but are crushing the Greek people to do so. If Greece continues with this, the Greek people will riot in the streets, and engage in a civil war, completely overthrowing the Greek state in a revolution.

 

I feel that Skyrim is experiencing a revolutionary situation. Following the Great War, the Nordic Jarls were forced to suffer under the White-Gold Concordat in order to sustain the Imperial aristocracy. They have no suffered for 30 years, long enough to both [&@%!] them off, and to disgruntle the Nordic people. They're pissed at the Empire.

 

But these tempers never boiled over the surface by themselves. There needed to be a spark, a catalyst, to set the flames of revolution alight. I'm not sure if this was the Markarth Incident, or the Duel with Torygg.

 

In either case, I think special mention goes to the Duel. I condemn Ulfric's actions as the wrong ones. By killing the King, he effectively shot himself in the foot (or knee, take your pick). He created severe reactionary sentiments in parts of the Nordic Aristocracy.

 

 

EDIT: Here'd my opinion on the military leadership of the Stormcloaks, again, quoting myself from a previous post:

 

 

 

I just feel like commenting on the military genius of Ulfric and the Stormcloaks.

 

Whiterun:

He focuses on this city from the start for a good reason. Its central position is key to launching attacks on other Imperial Holds, and it forces all imperial trade and reinforcements from Cyrodiil to travel through the Reach (not the ideal route).

 

Falkreath: After taking Whiterun, the Stormcloaks immediately chase after Falkreath. While Whiterun had forced all Imperial supplies to travel through the Reach, Taking Falkreath cuts Tullius off from all support from Cyrodiil, Leaving Highrock as the only accessable province. And even if Riften has been give to the Empire, they have been cut off completly from the rest

of the Imperial forces.

 

The Reach: After Falkreath, he goes even further to ruin the Imperial economy, by taking the Reach, 'source of half of skyrim's silver' to quote Tullius. Although doing so passes the problem of the Forsworn onto him, it still must be an incredibly blow to

Tullius' treasury (and the size of his forces, it was a major hold).

 

Morthal: Well, there's not much there, but it just gives him more ground, and secures his Flank on the march to Solitude.

 

Then he takes Solitude

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[UrgeNexus]

Because you're filling the thread with inconsequential info, like when you spent 30 lines explaining the difference between rebelion and civil war.

Nobody is forcing you to read anything, if you don't want to read a long post that really is your problem. More information means more material for discussion.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Comparing the Mede Dynasty to the Roman Empire is something I find funny. If the Mede's ruled in Rome at anytime during its prime, well any time at all really, and had even thought about doing what they did in TES they would have been gutted and hanged in the streets. The Romans were f*ckin brutal. They loved victory and hated defeat. Even on minor levels. Exactly why they revere and love Julius Ceaser so much.

 

Thats when they transformed from a Republic. When they elected Julius Ceaser to lead them again.

[sajuukkhar9000]

 

 

-The oppression which amounts to "don't throw any big Talos parades, and we wont care. Everyone can worship Talos in their homes, and nothing will happen!"

-Despite this so called "heavy taxation", I have yet to hear any of it mentioned in the game, ever.

 

 

As for the video

-The duel between Uflric and Troygg, while acceptable to the Nords, was against Imperial law. It was indeed murder, and not valid.

-The way that The Stormcloaks got their name does nothing to give their cause any justification, It's just an amusing fact.

 

1. The whole "The High King was picked by The Emperor" bit was something Ulfric said...... about the enemy he was currently fighting........ to treat it as anything but propaganda is laughable, It's like saying "well Hitler said X group was evil, so it must be true" while Hitler was fighting that group at that very moment.

 

2. Tiber Septim was not from Skyrim, he most likely wasn't even a Nord, and the Nords joined every Empire that came before Tiber's. Furthermore, the Nords didn't join The Third Empire just because of Tiber Septim's godhood, they joined because of Tiber Septim's military prowess during the Battle of Sanctre Tor. - http://www.uesp.net/wiki/Lore:Battle_of_Sancre_Tor

 

3. Actually, as Alvor points out.

Dovahkiin: "Why is the worship of Talos banned?"

Alvor: "It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."

 

The Empire HAD been keeping The Thalmor out of Skyrim, and people were able to worship freely in their homes without fear of the Thalmor, it was Ulfric who brought The Thalmor into Skyrim, and broke the power the Empire was using to keep them out.

 

4. The Empire could fight the AD to a stalemate also, but what you conveniently forget is that this is not a war that can be won by a stalemate, it can only be won by going to Alinor and burning it, something the Redguards couldn't do, something Skyrim can't do, and something only the Empire could ever hope to achieve. A bunch of rag-tag misfit nations barely working together would eventually lose against a continued onslaught by the AD, and if the AD captures Cyrodiil, which is Skyrim is reliant on for food, as is Hammerfell, both nations are screwed.

 

5. Considering that The Empire had basically crushed Ulfric's rebellion in just a few short months, remember, Tullius had Uflric captured and was about to execute him at the beginning of the game, while vastly under-supplied by men and resources, since, by Tullius's own admission, The Empire was throwing everything they had at the border of the AD, The Empire is doing far greater then we see in-game.

 

Furthermore, The Emperor's death actually helps their cause, everyone hated Titus Mede II, and no one wanted to follow him, with him out of the way, a new, less hated, leader can take the throne and use the vast anti-Thalmor sentiment to rally the people.

 

6. And as stated before, The Thalmor are only able to do that BECAUSE OF Ulfric, The Empire had actually done a good job at keeping The Thalmor suppressed till Uflric mucked it up. Also, as mentioned before, The Empire is having massive troop build-up on the borders, so even they are preparing for open-war, they aren't just sitting around with their thumbs up their bums.

 

 

At the war part

1. So what your saying is that a group of largely unorganized soldiers from Hammerfell and Skyrim, would be able to do what The Empire, which consisted of Hammerfell and Skyrim, plus Cyrodiil and High Rock couldn't? no really, think about that for a moment, it makes no sense. Furthermore, your point offers no hard fact, but baseless "they are strong, thus will win!" propaganda.

 

2. The Blades can operate from Sky Haven Temple no matter if Ulfric, or The Empire, rule Skyrim, their ability to assist against the AD is unrelated to who rules Skyrim. Not to mention that It's The Thalmor who hunt down The Blades, and even if Ulfric does take over Skyrim, you really think that they wont send hit-squad across the borders to try to take out Sky-Haven Temple? And the Blades got their asses handed to Them by The Thalmor already, who says it wont happen again?

 

3. The same applies for The Empire, this really doesn't help your point at all, the Dovahkiin's questing around Skyrim offers both sides equal levels of benefits.

 

 

Imperial Supporter Ideas

1. Considering that the Empire has had a massive build-up of their forces along the border with the AD, and that one, undermanned, Legion, beat Uflric's rebellion in just a few months, they have actually gotten quite powerful, and are obviously preparing for immanent war.

 

2. The Redguards only fought the Dominion for 5 years before the AD signed the treaty and backed out of Hammerfell. So there is no "Redguards have fought the AD for 25 years". Secondly, Skyrim is reliant on Cyrodiil for food, because their own lands aren't fertile enough to provide for them, if Skyrim leave The Empire, and The Thalmor march on skyrim, Skyrim is going into massive food shortages, which will cripple any attempt at prolonged resistance.

 

3. The Empire actually has tired, and was largely succeeding, at keeping The Thalmor controlled, and The Empire fights for everyone, not just the Nords. and if Ulfric wanted to save his people from the same treatment he got, he shouldn't have caused them to be put into the situation where they would suffer the same treatment to begin with.

 

4. Uflric's interests should actually be directed to ANYONE who lives in Skyrim, not just the humans, his treatment of the Dark Elves isn't winning him any favors in the potential ally that in Morrowind. And the Dark Elves contribute little to the city because hey are treated like trash, if Ulfric really expected them to help he should at least have the common decency to help them in return, it's unrealistic to expect people who are treated like trash to help the person treating them like trash, and Ulfric is losing out on A LOT of support, both at home, and afar, by treating them the way he does. Also, Neurelon makes it clear he has been living in the city for ages, looking for his phial. Him owning a house on that side of town is probably because he got it before Ulfirc took over. And the excuse of "he is usy with the war!" doesn't cut it, a good leader is expected to be able to treat his people properly at all times, him being able to keep his own city in check shows he lack control, and the power the multi-task.

 

5. Well, Jarl Igmund is significantly better then the Silver-bloods, at least he is a mobster who kills anyone who gets in his way using locals that he exploits by keeping their king hostage.

 

6. And they actually did have the right to worship their god, until Uflfric came along.

 

7. There is a difference between keeping your traditions, and getting the rest of the world killed because you cant back off of them for a couple years. the former is fine, the latter is stupid, and Ulfric is the later.

 

8. As pointed out before

Dovahkiin: "Why is the worship of Talos banned?"

Alvor: "It's from that treaty that ended the Great War, remember, when the Emperor was forced by the Thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy - everyone still had their little shrine to Talos. But then Ulfric and his "Sons of Skyrim" started agitating about it, and sure enough the Emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night... one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."

 

It's actually Ulfric that is the reason why The Thalmor are in Skyrim.

 

9. His cause and ideal being true is subjective opinion, and not fact, furthermore, while he had half of the Jarls, and half of the people, on his side, he ALSO didn't have the other half of the Jarls, or the other half of the people on his side. How is one person fighting for being King when he only has 50% of the nation's support make him any better then the OTHER guy fighting for control of the nation, who also has 50% support? It makes them the exact same actually.

 

10. I actually agre with you on this, people who say Ulfric is an agent of The Thalmor have no idea what they are talking about. Ulfric is a pawn of The Thalmor, not an agent. Although, being a pawn does make you indirectly an agent of the group controlling you.

 

And the Thalmor would benefit from Ulfirc winning, the separation of Skyrim from The Empire makes both weaker, and causes both to have wasted large amounts of resources fighting each other, instead of spending them on preparing for The Thalmor. And if The Thalmor take Cyrodiil, they will cut Skyrim off from its main food source, making them even WEAKER, and more easy to destroy.

 

11. While I do agree a direct attack on the Thalmor is dumb, your point on The Empire not objecting has been proven false many times already, their massive build-up for forces along the border with the AD, and their suppression of The Thalmor until Uflric came along, show they have been activly working against The Thalmor.

 

12. Who the hell ever suggested the Thalmor and stormcloaks would ally? really, I've never seen anyone mention that before in any Imperial/Stormcloak arguments.

Edited February 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[RighthandofSithis]

Well, I quote all of that, but IO'm only addressing a few points.

 

As I've stated before, we can see that the Rift seems rather fertile. With some major agricultural reforms in the area, Skyrim could probably feed itself.

 

Skryim went to war with Allessia at one point, they only ever allied with her.

 

I wouldn't say the Nords are unorganised. Historically, this has been quite the opposite. The Redguards you could argue are rather disorganised (although the presence of various knightly orders contradicts that notion).

 

The carrige driver of Solitude confirms that the High King of Skyrim, is usually the Jarl of Solitude (the most Imperial hold in Skyrim), and the general store owner states Torygg blindly followed the Empire, lending credibility to the notion that the High King is an Imperial puppet (under the Empire, that is).