Imperial VS Stormcloak

[sajuukkhar9000]

 

 

-There is a very large difference between beating the AD, and stalemating them. Hammerfell stalemated the AD because the AS was weakened from their war in Cyrodiil, didn't really care about Hammerfell much at all anymore, and Hammerfell had many soldiers from the Legion who willingly stayed behind to help them fight. However, stalemating the AD means NOTHING in the long run, the AD is not a force you can just stalemate and they will give up, they will come again, and again, until they win, and neither Hammerfell, or Skyrim, have the power as independents, let alone if the Thalmor capture Cyrodiil, to push the AD back into Alinor, and burn them to the ground, which is the ONLY thing that will win the war. Anything else is just delaying the AD victory, but only delaying it.

 

-The Legions are made up of Nords, Orcs, Bretons, Imperials, and Redguards, along with whatever members of the other races who live in the Empire decide to join it. The Nords were no more responsible for "saving" The Empire then any other race, and in lore the Empire has fought the Mer many times as well, and both still exist.

 

-What's ironic about that Stormcloak soldier's dialog is that it was Ulfirc himself that allowed his brother to be taken. He is fighting on the side of the very man responsible for his bothers' disappearance.

 

-Actually, Heimskr does NOT get jailed in the game itself, he only gets jail if you have the unofficial Skyrim patch installed, and them restoring that bit of content is suspect at best, and I never said Greymane wasn't in the war.....

 

-Except The thalmor isn't allowed to undermine the Empire whenever they want, The Empire in fact stalled them every chance they get.

 

-I have read that book, and frankly, it shows exactly why The Dunmer don't try to help, they get treated like s#*!, so why would they help the Nords.

 

-Right and wrong are subjective quantities that have no basis in reality and exist solely in the minds of whatever human is thinking of it at the time. It's impossible to be wrong, and it's impossible to be right. I wont admit I am wrong for the same reason I wont admit i am a purpose unicorn, because I can't be, nor can anyone else in matter of opinions such as who is more right in their cause.

 

-Talos isn't the god of war, he's the god of man. Furthermore, getting to worship Talos wont mean jack in a few years when The Thalmor purge mankind from existence itself.

 

-I know who Wulf is, and you don't know what Wulf meant, don't try to act like you do, I provided an equally valid interpretation of his words as you did.

 

 

Nice to see you are willing to let the entire human race go extinct rather then suck up that you cant have the perfect life forever.

 

-1. But it was still there to help the local Redguard rebellion. Having many trained solider in the area to help lead gave their tactics far greater power then they would have had otherwise.

 

2. Hammerfell WAS their main target, but after they took that most of their forces there went to Cyrodiil.

 

3. Except those conditions weren't available to him, because the AD wants Cyordiil, and the Ad wouldn't have accepted a cyrodiil stalemate treaty and just left them alone like they did Hammerfell, they would have continued to push, and Cyrodiil could not have continued the war and won.

 

-False, the stormclaoks existed as a unified military/political entity before Troyyg was killed, their numbers swelled afterwards, but they still existed quite unified beforehand, and considering how Tullius beat Ulfric, I would say he isn't that good at being a military commander. The only real advantage Ulfric has is that The Empire's forces are largely on the border.

 

-You are misinterpreting the argument quite badly. What I said is that, at the time Titus Mede surrendered, Cyrodiil was NOT in the position to bring the AD to such a stalemate to where the AD would just give up. titus Mede surrendered to buy Cyrodiil time to re-build, and The Thalmor are using it to their advantage also. The Thalmor couldn't just walk all over Skyrim now, but that's because the Empire is rebuilding, and both sides continue this farce of a truce to buy themselves more time.

 

And the thalmor can be forced right out as well. Tullius just bough elenwin along because it was normal, but you see how he doesn't really try to prevent her from being kicked out.

 

-Ugh........ the Nords giving the Dunmer land WAS IN RELATION TO SOLSTHIEM, NOT WINDHLEM.

 

-Freedom means nothing if you aren't alive to experience it.

 

-The civil war in Skyrim was inevitable yes, but Ulfric had plenty of chances after the inevitability to come to his senses and stop, but he chose not to. furthermore, when you met him in Sovengarde, he even admits his mistake, something I found funny.

 

-Willingly, and knowingly supporting, and facilitating, the downfall or not only yourself, not only The empire, but all of mankind and non-mer races, does however would override the legitimacy of his rebellion, if it had any to begin with.

 

-Not many Nords have his level of persuasion. Ulfric is a lot like Hitler in that the entire cause is built around his ability to sway the people, something most dont have. His military strength isn't what makes him important, its his power over people that does. You cant just replace him with anyone.

 

-Leadership is won through battle, Mede is no less legitimate then Septim was, especially considering that the time of the Dragonborn kings ended.

 

 

 

 

Edited February 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[imperistan]

1. There were two invasion armies. One falling does not weaken the other to the degree you're suggesting. It doesn't work like that. And again, they had 5 years to resupply and reinforce. If you can't sustain a war that isn't even on your own turf when you have 3x the resources to draw from than your enemy does, then you're not going to beat them regardless.

 

2. Don't make things up. Hammerfel was always their goal. ALWAYS.

 

3. Hammerfel could have done more than stalemate if the Empire had not thrown them to the wolves.

 

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Clearly you don't know your ES history.

 

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The Thalmor doesn't have to be allowed. They're doing it whether the Empire lets them or not. You're a fool if you think the Thalmor get to run around the Empire like they can and aren't undermining the Empire where possible as they do so.

 

The Thalmor aren't stupid. If they get such unprecedented access to a place they inevitably intend to invade, they WILL use that to their advantage.

 

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I know for a fact that you didn't read that book. Namely because if you had, you'd realize that it isn't so simple as "the Dunmer get treated like s#*!, thus they dont' help the Nords".

 

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Don't start taking things out of context just so you can skirt the issue. Religious oppression is wrong. We all know it, and you'd be a liar or some kind of awful if you said it wasn't, but you won't admit it either way because it defeats your argument.

 

That is no way to argue.

 

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Its the lack of belief in Talos that would result in man's downfall. That's what you won't see.

 

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No, you didn't. You equated what was clearly meant to be the complete disbandment of the Empire with a simple change in dynasties. That is not valid.

[sajuukkhar9000]

 

 

1. And the first invasion army, the one in Hammerfell, largely went to help the one in Cyrodiil.

 

2. Don't make things up either, Hammerfell was their ORIGINAL goal, goals change, and the goal changed before the war even ended, to Cyrodiil.

 

3. Not really, if Hammerfell had stayed with the empire, all that would have happened is that they would be forced into a stalemated war for years, that the AD would eventually win because The Empire would have to do countless tasks involving rebuilding Cyrodiil, thus diverting tons of troops from the front lines, and giving the AD, whose land WASN'T destroyed the ability to first crush The Empire's frontline fighters, then move on and start burning everything else.

 

-Clearly you dont, the Legion is made out of countless races. Nords make up a large portion of the Legion, but that doesnt make what the other races did any less important.

 

-Really? because Skyrim pre-UIlfric, Ondolemar being stalled in Markarth, and Elenwin being unable to fight being thrown out of the peace talks show otherwise.

 

-Except it really isn't.

 

-Oppression is "wrong" but it means nothing in the face of genocidal human hating elves who want to purge all mankind.

 

-Talos being gone meaning humanity will die only is true if you ignore the facts that

1. The Empire still let people worship Talos, meaning his power wasn't being weakened by suddenly losing people believing in him

2. Talos's replacement has arrived in Skyrim

Talos was dieing for ages, ever since the Fall of his Empire, but thats why his replacement was made.

 

-All I see is you warping his text in such a way that it only fits your goals, he says the Empire, as in his Empire, is getting old. Titus Mede's Empire was born from the ashes of Septim's, but it is not Septim's truly. Septim's empire died with Martin, this is a new Empire, just as Alessia to Reman, and Reman to Tiber, were new empires.

Edited February 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[RighthandofSithis]

Imperistan, ^ was awesome. All I have to say is thanks for having my back. Same with RighthandofSithis.

 

We must look out for each other comrade!

 

That said, you should respect Sajuukkhar. he knows what he is talking about, and does make some legitimate points.

 

That said, now to address that last post:

 

1. I have never heard of the Aldmeri forces in hammerfell moving to assist the invasion of Cyrodiil, in fact, given the Dominion continued to occupy Hammerfell, I'd say the opposite.

 

2. Admittedly, I agree. However, if the Dominion had any sense, they would regard Hammerfell as an important goal, as it gives them near complete control of Tamriel's southern oceans.

 

3. No comment really. You make a good point, but if the Empire actively assisted Hammerfel, they could have pushed the Dominion into a position to demand more from them.

 

Well, given the Nords were given special mention in 'The Great War', it would be safe to assume they played a vital role in the Battle for Red Ring.

 

And the issue of Empires is an interesting one. I'd personally argue that the Mede Empire is still the Third Empire, as it didn't really collapse (completly, that is) and Titus I was never mentioned as having reuniting the entire Empire.

Edited February 17, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[sajuukkhar9000]

IMO, the two biggest things The Empire has in its favor are this

1. Shezzarines

2. Dovahkiins

The hands of Padhome, the children of Sithis, the avatars of Lorkhan.

 

-Just as Hans the Fox was sent to help the 500 kill the Falmer

-Just as Pelinal was sent to help Alessia kill the Alyeids

-Just as Nerevar was sent to help kill the Dwemer

-Just as Wulfharth, Tiber, and Zurin were sent to stomp all over the first AD

-Just as Tullius, Ulfric, and The Dovahkiin were (presumably) sent to reinfroce Talos and mankind against the second AD.

 

Lorkhan has always sent his children to protect man against the elves, and indeed, Lorkhan's hcildren have been responcible for making 4 elves races going exinct, the 4th being the Left handed elves of yokuda who were slain by the Redguard's version of the shezzarine, the Hoon-Ding.

 

The elves have no chance in hell at winning, period, it just wont happen, at at the end of this, we can have a bunch of tiny nation states each trying to take land/power from the others, or we can have a new Empire reborn, which will happen, as the gods have always favored empires.

 

It simply is mythic destiny.

Edited February 17, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000

[imperistan]

- It isn't about living a perfect life. Its about freedom (which isn't even remotely perfect mind you), as well as the fact that its banning of Talos and the lack of believers in him that will destroy him. In either case, to allow the worship of Talos to be banned in anyway is an abomination.

 

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1. They never took Hammerfel as a whole, only the southern half. Big difference.

 

2. Lady Arrannelya's army was never drawn from to bolster Lord Narrafiins. Their objective remained the exact same throughout the entirety of the war, even with the new focus on the Imperial City. (This is proven by how her army was still pushing into the north of Hammerfel in full force by the time forces were called into Cyrodiil. If her army was fractured by this call or if the Thalmor had decided to abandon it as an objective, she would never have pushed across the Alik'r. It would have been suicide to do so against general orders and with a fraction of her original army)

 

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No. The entirety of the Cyrodiil occupation army was destroyed in the assault on the Imperial City. Unless you're suggesting that the Dominion was standing by with a fresh army to send into Cyrodiil again (which would be a complete lie, as Hammerfel shows us), then Mede had nothing but time to take in the situation.

 

The Dominion couldn't even take Hammerfel after accepting the Empire's concessions. It wasn't going to fight them both.

 

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No, there was no Stormcloak army before Torygg was killed. PERIOD. The rebellion did not start until his death, as such, THERE WAS NO STORMCLOAK ARMY.

 

Yes the men existed and had their training, but there is a MASSIVE difference between several, divided forces of differing sizes under multiple banners and one unified army. It takes time to consolidate so many forces together and establish a chain of command for them (as well as all of the infrastructure required to support that army) and if their enemy responds fast enough to them (Which the Empire did) then they're prone to fail quickly.

 

This is why rebellions are never started before they're planned, and the ones that are almost always destined to fail without something that will give them the time they need.

 

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They didn't have to bring them to a stalemate. THEY ALREADY WON. The Empire had no obligation to concede them ANYTHING. The Dominion would have been foolish to even demand anything after the War of the Red Ring. (But they didn't have to. Mede begged them to take the spoils of a war they didn't win)

 

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It doesn't matter if you sit in the dark and make fun of your slavers. You're still just all talk.

 

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It was both.

 

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Life means nothing if you aren't free. And in this case, if you aren't free in the way that you're being denied, you're already dead.

 

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He only said that in relation to the terror that was Alduin. The war is still just, its just bad although prophesied timing (something Ulfric would not have had any control over).

 

There's also the fact that at that point he's already lost anyway. It isn't hard to say you've made a mistake when you're dead because of what you chose to do, even if it was just.

 

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The rebellion is the only thing fighting against man's downfall.

 

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More of this nonsense that every one outside of Windhelm is fighting for Ulfric, rather than for their homes or families or beliefs.

 

Ulfric is a red herring. The people of Skyrim fight for Skyrim, not the Empire or Ulfric. Only those closest to either one actually fight for them.

 

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And that is why the Mede Empire is not the same Empire Tiber Septim forged, and hence lacking in any virtue whatsoever.

 

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Problem is that you can't only have just one goal. Yes, the Dominion decided to focus on Cyrodiil, but that took nothing away from their intentions in Hammerfel.

 

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:facepalm: Lets just ignore what Hammerfel did by itself and then pretend that that wouldn't have happened if the Empire supported Hammerfel.

 

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It does when they make the bulk of the crucial fighting forces that forged the Septim Empire, and allowed the Mede Empire to continue its existence. When Nord's are the largest portion of the Legion's.

 

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IT doesn't matter if you get to worship in private. Without open worship, the belief will die. This is what killed Norse Paganism as well as almost every other pagan religion in the real world that was in the proximity of Christianity. And that is what will happen to the belief in Talos if this oppression is allowed to continue.

 

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1. We don't know yet that the Dragonborn is Talos reborn. That is just speculation based on what he's done.

 

2. Even if he is, this won't stop the belief from dying if the oppression is allowed to continue. The Dragonborn is doomed to fade into the world, just as all the other great heros of old did before him.

 

Unless Beth decides to literally show the Dragonborn ascending into godhood (and with everyone knowing it), Talos will die if the status quo is maintained. As such, man will die.

 

And even then, this does't stop the ban from still being an injustice forced upon the people for no reason other than to save one single province from one more moment of war.

 

The Empire must answer to its oppression. This cannot happen if the Empire is allowed to continue to exist, because no Empire is going to condemn itself.

 

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Doesn't stop the Mede Empire from being the Septim Empire in all but the name of the Emperor. Doesn't stop the Mede Empire from using the exact same infrastructure and methods as the Septim Empire.

 

It doesn't matter if Beth is self-owned or owned by Zenimax (note that's probably all backwards, but lets just ignore that for sake of argument), they're still Beth. Without a complete change in how the Empire is structured (to the point where it is definitively NOT the Septim Empire anymore in any way whatsoever), then what Talos said has not yet been fulfilled.

 

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Hilarious that you'll admit that but then continue to insist that the Dominion will just roll over Skyrim. Pretty hypocritical.

[RighthandofSithis]

 

No, there was no Stormcloak army before Torygg was killed. PERIOD. The rebellion did not start until his death, as such, THERE WAS NO STORMCLOAK ARMY.

 

Yes the men existed and had their training, but there is a MASSIVE difference between several, divided forces of differing sizes under multiple banners and one unified army. It takes time to consolidate so many forces together and establish a chain of command for them (as well as all of the infrastructure required to support that army) and if their enemy responds fast enough to them (Which the Empire did) then they're prone to fail quickly.

 

This is why rebellions are never started before they're planned, and the ones that are almost always destined to fail without something that will give them the time they need.

 

 

I'd disagree with you. A number of Nords suggest they were Stormcoloaks before Toryggs death (suggesting the organisation was named as such).

[kradus]

The empire didn't win the war. Cyrodill was ravaged, the thalmor did enought damage to the wealthiest province in the empire, that the man who initially refused thalmor demands and fought a war over it(the emperor) was hard pressed to negotiate a truce.

Hammerfell didn't beat the Dominion either, much like the Vietname didn't really beat the US, only made it clear that figthing them was a waste of resources over time, Ence a treaty was signed. Quit using that as an excuse, the Dominion simply couldn't afford to waste themselfs in Hammerfell when a peacefull empire across the border could rebuild and overtake them eventually.
So instead the Thalmor focused their efforts in creating dissention within the empire, and found in Ulfric the perfect patsy to do the killing for them. and that's what this war is all about.

First of all I would appreciate if someone explained without suppositions how a segregated empire is supposed to have a stronger millitary than a united one (stormcloak vs imperial victory scenario).

 

And keep it short plz.

Edited February 17, 2013 by kradus

[RighthandofSithis]

The empire didn't win the war. Cyrodill was ravaged, the thalmor did enought damage to the wealthiest province in the empire, that the man who initially refused thalmor demands and fought a war over it(the emperor) was hard pressed to negotiate a truce.

 

Hammerfell didn't beat the Dominion either, much like the Vietname didn't really beat the US, only made it clear that figthing them was a waste of resources over time, Ence a treaty was signed. Quit using that as an excuse, the Dominion simply couldn't afford to waste themselfs in Hammerfell when a peacefull empire across the border could rebuild and overtake them eventually.

So instead the Thalmor focused their efforts in creating dissention within the empire, and found in Ulfric the perfect patsy to do the killing for them. and that's what this war is all about.

 

First of all I would appreciate if someone explained without suppositions how a segregated empire is supposed to have a stronger millitary than a united one (stormcloak vs imperial victory scenario).

 

And keep it short plz.

 

Well, the Great War states the Redguards fought the Aldmeri to a standstill, so that suggests the redguards plus the Empire could have screwed the Dominion over.

 

And nobody calles for segregation. Every Stormcloak supporter on this forum you find will support an alliance with hammerfell. But if you want to know why said alliance is stronger than the Empire, its because it at least won't collapse around our ears.

Edited February 17, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[kradus]

You can always make alliances, even the empire can make an aliance with Hammerfell to fight the Dominion if they invade. Because unlike the stormcloaks, Hammerfell didn't go to war with the empire. There is no crippling political strife between the two as there would be between Skyrim and the remnants of the empire, should the stormcloaks succede.

 

When you say the empire is collapsing what do you mean exactly? Do you think the empire would be millitarily stronger if it broke into several nations? How is that exactly? Why would you want to give up centralised leadership and the strategic advantage in Cyrodill, when you need to stick together now more than ever?

Edited February 17, 2013 by kradus