Imperial VS Stormcloak

[Lachdonin]

On the big picture, the Empire is considerably stronger than just the province of Skyrim. I think anyone who disputes this needs to clean the cotton out of their head. Since Skyrim is PART of the Empire, it's strength would automatically be less than the total strength of the Empire.

 

Anyway, the only reason Talos, the god-king of the Nords, managed to beat the Aldmiri Domminon in the first place (Or at least as easially as he did) was because of the Numidium. Without that it would have been a long, grueling war and victory wasn't assured anyway. The lack of any such ultimate weapon is largely the reason why the Empire is currently on the back foot with the Thalmor.

 

That said, the Nords lack any such weapon as well. So, since they are clearly weaker than the Empire as a whole, how can one possibly justify that they would somehow be able to beat the Domminion without the Empire?

[daventry]

Just a quick question because my Jarl thread got 0 replies, if the stormcloaks win, what happens to Elisif? Does she remain Jarl or is replaced?

She remains Jarl yes.

[Kaldhore]

It hugely amuses me that racism is being considered a greater flaw than torture chambers, unjust executions and being, y'know, a foreign oppressor who is in turn the puppet of a foreign oppressor intending to explicitly crush your very culture. A whole bunch of Nords fighting for...uh...the land of the Nords...in the face of two foreign invaders, and being a bit hotheadedly zealous in their resurgence, well that's just ridiculous! They are clearly monsters! That's not something that happens in every single war ever fought in human hist-oh. Oh. Right. It actually is.

 

I'll remember that. The next time I go to Windhelm I'll take the racist guy and drag him into a torture chamber before an entertaining afternoon execution, because they and Ulfric can be a bit of an overbearing goon. That'll learn them! Viva la Thalmor puppets! We'll ignore Ralof....not caring where you're from. We'll ignore the murderously zealous Galmar Stone-Fist....ultimately not caring where you're from as long as you're willing to fight for Skyrim. We'll ignore Thorleif...uh...still not caring where you're from. And Wuunferth. And...everyone else. Um....yeah. Ulfric and two drunken idiots can shove it! Wooooo, Empire! Yeah!

 

We will of course, entirely ignore Orcs telling me to shove off and stay out of their Orc-only clubhouse until I do stuff for them, just like the Stormcloaks seem to expect. Because they're orcs I guess. Maybe it's because they're green. Is green allowed to get away with that? Probably. Or possibly a pointy ear thing. Maybe they're just not important enough. Like Bretons, who are hilariously racist to Orcs. And the Dunmer, who just finished up getting mashed by the Argonians for millenia of cartoonish racism. And the constant Bosmer/Khajiit thing. Hm. As it turns out, everyone is racist. Not just a little bit, but a lot. Slavery and war racist.

 

Maybe it's because Nords don't have fur and tails when they're being racist like everyone else....

 

First inteligent comment Ive read so far. Started reading this thread and was getting annoyed at the Stormcloak bashing and hypocritical nonesence that was all about justifying reasons for a choice. And all the talk about forced unity of the continent for defence. Sounds like some people are 100 years behind modern, contemporary thought.

 

It's all about the grey areas, no simple choice because there never is. The racism issue isnt really racism either, if the nords disliked the elves for their pointy ears or skin - that would be racism. But isnt it more about fear and distrust? The Stormcloaks fight for their right to rule themselves without outside or foreign input. Its their right to be either a crap government or a good one or an inbetween one, its not the right of foreigners to decide. There are so many real world paralells its unbelievable.

[sovnat93]

Since the victory of the Empire or the Stormcloaks depends on which side you choose in game, let's assume that they are are fairly equal in strength. At the very least, let us assume that the faction that the Empire has in Skyrim is approximately as strong (or as weak) as the Stormcloak rebellion under Ulfric.

 

So we have that, both armies are equal, so if they were to join together their total strength would undoubtedly be significantly increased.

 

Now let's look at the real threat looming over Tamariel, The Aldemeri Dominion. They are extremely powerful. As Lachdonin pointed out, "the only reason Talos, the god-king of the Nords, managed to beat the Aldmiri Domminon in the first place (Or at least as easially as he did) was because of the Numidium". Tibur Septim was only able to defeat the Aldemeri because of an ultimate weapon. How can anyone possibly think that one province can defeat the Aldmeri Dominian when only 30 years prior to the game, the entire Empire (Skyrim included) barely did? The Nords might be able to push them out, but they surely will not be able to keep them off permanently. A book in game told me that Skyrim was integral to winning the Great War. Without its support, the Empire would most likely fall, and Skyrim, being cornered on all sides would fall in suit.

 

The Thalmor are military and political masterminds. It will take the support of every province available to wipe them out, and since the Empire is already an established system connecting three provinces, it makes since to keep that system intact rather than weakening it. In fact, a dossier found in the Thalmor embassy reveals the Ulfric's convenient get away was planned by the Thalmor. They want him to keep the rebellion going because (surprise, surprise) it's weakening the empire.

 

Also, anyone who thinks the Thalmor and the Empire are comfortably working together is misguided. Talking to NPCs reveals that tensions are high, and both side acknowledge that a final battle is in the future. The Stormcloaks think they are getting rid of tyrants by pushing out the Imperials, but they fail to realize that the real tyrants are the Thalmor, and the Imperials are only trying to keep peace while they can regroup and get a solid enough army and plan together to wipe the Aldemeri Dominion off the planet. The Stormcloak rebellion accomplishes nothing but hindering this goal. Anyone who is for freedom and is against tyranny needs to support the Empire until the Thalmor threat is neutralized.

 

Speaking of tyranny, let's take a look at Ulfric. What famous historical figure does he remind you of? A recent treaty following a Great War has just caused his country a lot of strife without letting them negotiate terms. Under the guise of nationalism, he uses his charisma to gain the trust of his people and lead a revolution thrusting himself to a seat of power. Any extended conversation with him reveals his huge ego, and makes one wonder if he's not just another power hungry tyrant. He's also extremely racist, and most likely in favor of racial cleansing leaving only the Nords (a typically blond haired, blue eyed people) to rule. If you want me to spell it out for you, I will. He's f***ing Hitler! Do you really want this nutjob ruling Skyrim?

 

My proposed idea is this. Let the Dragonborn bring the Stormcloaks and the Imperials together. However, somehow lead the Thalmor to believe that the civil war is still on, or at least that the Empire is severely weakened. (Another alternative is having the empire feign a surrender to Skyrim and then have the Dragonborn placed as "High King". This would cause the Thalmor to think that the Empire is devided and give the Empire the element of surprise.) Then, appeal to Hammerfell and get them back on the Empire's side, but not necessarily under its control. With the Dragonborn at the helm, rape the Aldmeri Dominion. Then when everyone sees his greatness, he will be placed as rightful emperor, and the Empire will be restored to its former glory. Talos worship will be legal, the provinces will return to being semi-independent entities, and everything will be peachy.

 

 

All arguments aside, who thinks an Elder Scrolls based on the 2nd Great War would be awesome? If the next generation of systems can handle processing full scale battles, I think it would be pretty badass.

Edited November 30, 2011 by sovnat93

[JechtStrife109]

sovnat93

That was an incredible and uplifting read! I think that whole post sums up nearly everything how I feel about thee whole situation.

The only thing I disagree on is relating Ulfric to Hitler.

Ulfric wants to unify his country under his rule so that it may have a strong and honourable leader rather than the weakened but still powerful Empire. Sure the stormcloaks are a bit racist but as other people pointed out who isn't?

I think that Aldmeri dominion is more like Hitler, they kill any talos worshippers just like Hitler killed all jews but this is more of a strategic manoeuvre to split the Empire making them look weak making Hammerfell fallout of favour with then as well as the stormcloaks.

I support the Empire, even with all it's flaws they still have the support of the majority of people in this forum and the Stormcloaks must be put down for the greater good

[Schattenu]

I think those of you defending Ulfric with the "so what if he's racist, lots of people are" argument are forgetting that he pretty much admits that if he could, he'd kill every elf in Skyrim, regardless of reason. I also have a hard time calling him an "honorable" leader when his idea of a fair fight with Torygg was to use a dragon shout, which Torygg didn't have, and then stab him in the heart while Torygg could barely move.

[Arcadiast]

I surely wish I could make my own faction and drive both of them of Skyrim once and for all.

 

Skyrim belongs to Dragons!

[elvinkun]

well, there is no good and bad side there. Technicaly, Empire is the good choice for the sake of future, but then again as they are now, they are just Thalmor puppets who happily spit on their founders and forbid Talos and execute all who still call him god, just so the Emperor won't loose his rule.

Stormcloaks obviously believe they can defend Skyrim aginst the Thalmor after driving the Empire out, and who knows, they might be right if they have fully dedicated Dragonborn and his fellow Dragons on their side. But even if they could defend, this probably means the end of Empire in the hands of Thalmor, because without the support from Skyrim, they have little to no chance of survivng any future conflict with them.

 

Well, I also got a bit of a anti-empire mood at the start, where they want to behead you just because you ...sort of were at the wrong place, no need to look into what actually happened, one person more killed, one less, who cares, right.

 

Also you have to note that outlawing Talos in Skyrim, where Talos is the most liked god there, and also formerly great hero of Skyrim, without even asking them for opinion actually calls for war.

 

I was all Stormcloak untill I actually saw them in Windhelm, but I still think it's the better choice out there. You can change opinion on other races, but I'm not sure Empire will ever change.

Edited November 30, 2011 by elvinkun

[Soresu]

I know how many threads have been released over numerous sites about this, and personally I hate that I'm making another one about it... yet none of the responses so far has given me a solid reason to help end the civil war siding with one or another (in fact it made it worse), I'm playing as a redguard.

 

The Imperial legion is indeed, a shadow of its former self. The emperor is a fake, and a weakling, not to mention he is not dragonborn. They are puppets of the Altmer, yet at the same time they want a united Empire against the Altmer. Still I believe a people should govern itself, unity is one thing, imperialism is another.

 

Then we have the stormcloaks, a bunch of racist bigots with a leader who I don't even particularly like. Not to mention siding with them risks the Thalmor overruning Skyrim while it is weak. Still, it IS Skyrim, the land of the nords, and they refuse oppression, and hammerfell also revolted against the empire and held their own... making the stormcloaks a viable choice for my redguard.

 

But my redguard dislikes how elves are treated ingame by the stormcloaks... ARGH... I have to say this has been the hardest decision I had to make in a game. I need your help, please post your opinions! And help convince me to side one or the other!

 

I really liked the idea of having this indecision when choosing a side. Cause it's intended that way. There are no better side in this war. Imperials are like you said a shadow of it's former self. It's weak, crumbling and like any other empire in the history using oppression to cover it's weakness, but in the end it only delays the inevitable. Stormcloaks are an organization formed under the oppression of an empire, they're grown tired of the situation they're in, how they are treated and their beliefs, their way of life are controlled by others, who are not of their blood, which makes them mistrust everyone who is not a nord. So I believe they have every reason to hate the Empire and the Aldmeri Dominion.

 

My character is a High Elf and a Stormcloak. I had every reason not to trust the empire, hell, they were going to chop my head off even though I wasn't a Stormcloak. It was Stormcloaks that saved my skin. And they fight for their beliefs, for their freedom, in my book that's a noble cause. But I am an elf on their side, now that's an irony I like. What better way to show that the race does not matter so long as you believe in the same cause. I think the minds of the people will change about the elves in Skyrim. But now it's in conflict and it just feeds the mistrust between nords and elves. In time when things settle down, people will learn to accept each other again so long as they respect the ways of life of one another.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Soresu

[PrincessOfFlorin]

The Empire has collapsed. Skyrim and High Rock are already the only provinces left of the hollowed out carcass of the thing we fought for in Morrowind; everyone else bar the Redguard already left it without a fight happening! And the Redguard left entirely because the Empire didn't want to fight for them. They then proved that you don't need the Empire to defeat the Thalmor, since the Redguard pushed them out not just on their own, but from the starting disadvantage of already being occupied.

Yes, if the Redguard can successfully best the Altmeri, then so can the Nords.

 

What I can't do is turn the joke of an Empire back into something that isn't a Thalmor puppet indulging in torture, religious persecution and instant execution of undesirables as a standard mode of operation.

Right. The Thalmor agenda is appalling, and the empire is a willing puppet.

 

It hugely amuses me that racism is being considered a greater flaw than torture chambers, unjust executions and being, y'know, a foreign oppressor who is in turn the puppet of a foreign oppressor intending to explicitly crush your very culture. A whole bunch of Nords fighting for...uh...the land of the Nords...in the face of two foreign invaders, and being a bit hotheadedly zealous in their resurgence, well that's just ridiculous! They are clearly monsters! That's not something that happens in every single war ever fought in human hist-oh. Oh. Right. It actually is.

Right, the systematic destruction of Nord culture by the Thalmor is not really up for debate. It's happening. And so, while some of the Stormcloaks might act like dicks, their dickishness is several orders of magnitude less heinous than the Thalmor's lust for genocide.

 

 

The empire is a Thalmor proxy. And as such, the only way I could imagine playing a character who was an empire sympathiser is if I played that character as a Thalmor.

 

Edit: and I agree that one of the best thing about this game is the fact that we keep talking about this issue. Bethesda did a great job of creating an engaging story and a knotty problem for us to chew on.

Edited November 30, 2011 by Goblin Girl