Imperial VS Stormcloak

[kradus]

Stormcloak117, on 26 Feb 2013 - 01:59, said:

Oh and another thing. I seem to be seeing alot of Imperials say that the battle right before the beginning of the game is where the Stormcloaks surrendered and gave up without a fight. The Stormcloak soldier that greats you in Sovngarde proves otherwise. He was there, Ulfric was captured, he never surrendered.

Hadvar - "He surrendered pretty meekly too, so much for his death or glory reputation" Hadvar actually saw it.

 

Stormcloak117, on 26 Feb 2013 - 01:59, said:

 

Also, alot of Imperial arguments suggest that the Empire will eventually lift the ban on Talos worship. Well I have not seen any proof to that statement, as history has shown I see the opposite happening rather to what most Imperials like to think or believe. When one right is taken way, most likely (As history has shown) others will be taken away also. The thing about it is the Imperials like to blame the Stormcloaks for whats happening in Skyrim yet dont own up to allowing the Thalmor to kill the Nords and enforce their rule. Allowing another government to pursue its own goals in your country is what puts the Empire in a puppet state.

The worship of Talos was up and running behind closed doors, untill Ulfric screwed up.

 

Now, the ban on Talos was a condition in the white-gold concordat, a peace treaty. Once the new war starts the peace treaty is void yes? Understand that?

There's also a good ammount of people all over the empire who still worships Talos in secret, Rikke, Tullius and the emperor amoung them.

Worshipping Talos openly when the Justiciars are no longer an issue seems like an obvious conclusion.

 

Stormcloak117, on 26 Feb 2013 - 01:59, said:

 

Therefore the Empire is a puppet of the Dominion, the Stormcloaks are a tool to help kill the Empire, thats undeniable. And I'm almost completely okay with that.

 

I would fight for the Empire if I though it was worth saving and from what it has done to the people of Skyrim and Cyrodiil it is no longer worth saving. Allowing it to exist is even wrong.

 

But first the Empire must leave Skyrim and the AD must be destroyed, then we can either fix the Empire or destroy it and make a new one.

If the empire is a tool of the Dominion, then why are the legions gathering to face them?

And you persist on not realising that the Thalmor forced the situation on the empire. Regardless if you hold the emperor responsible for the outcome of the great war or not, Leadership changes over time. Why would you punish the all empire again?

 

The empire leaving skyrim and the destruction of the AD are two incompatible ideas, since the Thalmor want the empire to die out.

 

Stormcloak117, on 26 Feb 2013 - 02:32, said:

And the Empire is not to blame? Wow thats ballsy. If it takes the people to wake the people up then so be it. The Empire will not win against the Dominion even if it wins in Skyrim. Just because you now forced a people to submit to your rule doesn't mean your unstoppable. It just makes it easier for the Thalmor to take them out.

Wrong, People are easier to kill if they have fewer allies.

 

Stormcloak117, on 26 Feb 2013 - 02:32, said:

 

Skyrim alone stands a much better chance against the elves than anyone else. The Nords (Stormcloaks) have more will to fight the Dominion than the Empire. The Empire will surrender again if things dont start great for them, to save themselves simply. The Nords will fight them and keep fighting until either the AD is defeated or the Nords are.

Also not true, the legions have been prepared for such a confrontation, and Tullius mentions the war to come.

 

Stormcloak117, on 26 Feb 2013 - 02:32, said:

 

But now more so than ever the Empire is even less capable than it ever has been. No one seems to argue against me when I state that the Empire is now in a power struggle but just seem to ignore it. Well, own up to it. Your emperor is dead. His council members sought his assassination. There will be a struggle for power among the Elder Council and will result in even more strife within the Empire. The legion cant just do as it wants. The Emperor must command it to do so. Without an Emperor there is no legion essentially. Someone might rise to power in Cyrodiil like Titus Mede I did but that would mean war just like he dealt with when the Empire lost lands to the AD 200 years ago. So all in all this Empire died with Titus Mede II.

Usually there's something called succession, there's no reason to believe there will be apower struggle. But in the remote chance there wont be an emperor soon, there's still an Imperial Marshall and the Generals who have been preparing for battle. Not having an emperor also means there's no one to hold you back.

Edited February 26, 2013 by kradus

[RighthandofSithis]

 

No, I'm insisting that the Empire will collapse. Full Stop. Admittedly, it will collapse faster if Skyrim leaves (being the bridge between Hi Rock and Cyrodiil), but it is better for Skyrim to leave now, and avoid the disaster of the Empire's imminent collapse.

 

And really, don;t call the Empire an 'alliance'. That said, an Alliance between Skyrim and Hammerfell will be able to fill the gap left by the Empire. it doesn't need to be led by 1 man (in fact, it being led by more than 1 people could, arguably, give it greater mobility and flexibility). Think of WW2. Were the Allies led by a single leader? At the same time, did the Wermacht have the capability to occupy and hold all of Europe and Northern Africa?

 

Yeah, no, not without a reason. Regardless of whatever issues the empire is going through, they'd just be worsened if it broke in 3 pieces, especially if you're giving up Cyrodill's strategic advantage and menpower. So long as Skyrim, High Rock and Cyrodill swear allegiance to the same ruller, the empire lives on. There's no reason why this isn't so, and you have the advantage of having all of their armies under the same command. No diplomatic crap when the war starts.

 

Btw, in the ww2 scenario, the allies hadn't been warring amongst themselfs before the rise of the 3rd Reich, and the germans where surrounded and outmunbered by the allies. So, it's not a similliar situation at all.

 

 

>>Really? A revolution cannot occur without a revolutionary situation. The WGC banning Talos Worship, a huge crackdown on such worship (as seen in Markarth), abductions (which even Alvor admits happened before Ulfric started revolting), an economic depression, rampant corruption and cronyism. All of these are signs of a revolutionary situation.

 

Do not accuse the people of standing up against a system forcing them to endure abject poverty for the benefit of a political minority.

 

Tell it to the forsworn.

I'd agree with you if it was simply nords vs empire, but the fact is, the stormcloaks are the minority. What about all of skyrim's citizens who didn't want the war? What about all the loyalist nords? The stormcloaks had a choice, like all the other nords, and they decided to start a war against their own that resulted in the death's of many. So yeah, they are responsible.

 

Alvor - "It's from that treaty that ended the great war remember? When the emperor was forced by the thalmor to outlaw Talos worship. We didn't pay much attention to it when I was a boy, everyone still had their little shrine to Talos.

But then Ulfric and his 'sons of skyrim' started agitating about it, and sure enough the emperor had to crack down. Dragging people off in the middle of the night, one of the main causes of this war, if you ask me."

 

So, yeah, the persecutions started because of Ulfric and his men.

 

Ahh, maybe I haven't elaborated on the complete situation the Empire faces.

 

We know Skyrim is wrapped in a civil war (and revolutionary ideals don't die easy), Morrowind is virtually autonomous anyway (and there's not much there anyway) and We know little about High Rock (whether its receeded to its feudal state or not).

 

What some people may not now is that Cyrodiil is experiencing just as much violence as Skyrim. Reading Cicero's journals, and speaking to him reveal that for the last 20 years 9at least) Cyrodiil has been wrapped by strife. Banditry has become a plague, Drug Lords have torn entire cities apart etc etc.

 

All of this has made recovery for the Empire almost Impossible. And while you may say that we must put down all this rebellion and turmoil, its not that easy. When Empires start to fall into the spiral of decline (losing land and tax income, losing military strength, being battered by a severe war etc etc) they can't really come back. Look at virtually every Empire in history. Rome, Byzantium, Britain, China, Russia, Turkey, the USSR etc etc. When they go into this spiral of decline, they eventually loose the ability to rebuild themselves (particularly in the face of a rising power).

 

And well, the second point wasn't really an in game justification of everything. In truth, I support the Forsworn just as I do the Palestinians. It was more a personal response to what I found slightly insulting (The notion that revolutionaries are bloodthirsty and are to blame for civil war).

 

Of course, though, Alvor states that abductions by the Thalmor happened even before the uprising, and the fact that Markarth pretty much forced Talos worship underground is another example. If you are religious, how would you feel about having to worship your god in complete secret, under threat of death, or worse? Imagine the religious persecution that happened under Stalin, how would you like to be placed in that sort of situation?

 

And lastly, what proof do you have that most of Skyrim's population firmly opposes Ulfric? There is much more evidence to suggest that it is a half-half split for a few reasons. A. Bethesda needed to balance the game. B. Talking to the people who comment on the war, you'll find about some support him, some oppose him, and some don't care. Take for example the following people who support Ulfric:

 

-Bulfrek (who is upset when the Empire takes over dawnstar)

-Bolund

-Solaf

-Lod

-Ogmund (or it is implied he does)

-Thonnir (or he implies that some residents of Morthal have already joined the Stomrlcokas, and that it is not an alien idea)

-Roggvir

-Greta

-Sinmir

-Almost everyone in Windhelm (with the obvious exception of Argonians and Dunmer)

-'Some' people in what was Helgen (Indicated by Tullius' comments)

-Gerdur

-Hilde (Implied by her comments)

-Sven (perhaps, implied by her mothers comments)

 

That was simply from a quick skim through the list of NPCs. There may be more. You may also notice that i did not mention any generic guards, nor did I list jarls or politicians.

 

Also, this sample shows that Stormcloak support extends far beyond just WIndhelm. In pretty much every hold there seems to be support for Ulfric from common people.

Edited February 26, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Hm. True enough on the goal of the Dominion but Im trying to make you realize that the religious oppression is wrong. No matter if its permanent or temporary. Its wrong and that relevant. Thats what Im pointing out. And yes the Empire is a puppet. It may be a quote from Tullius about the forces gathering to face the AD but then why would they put there most veteran legion in Skyrim to occupy it?

 

Thats a great plan. "Hm, lets put our best soldiers in Skyrim to kill the Nords and than occupy it and leave our unexperienced soldiers on the border with the AD."

 

Once again, what leadership? Oh thats right, the Elder council. The people who ordered the assassination of their leader, they are soo dedicated to this. (Sarcasm)

 

The Empires problems

 

- Internal power struggles

- Military weakness due to untrained soldiers and raw recruits

- Forces religion oppression on it own people

- Outlaws the worship of the very man who founded them

- Executes random people for being unlucky enough to be caught at the wrong time

 

Hm. Oh yeah thats a real great Empire. One I see as fit to rule over Tamriel for the rest of eternity. (Sarcasm)

 

Stormcloak problems

 

- Occasionally to rash

- Fight for Skyrim mainly

- Have prejudice prevalent within the ranks

- Dont have 300,000,000,000 Soldiers

- Dont have as many mages

- Are nationalists

 

Not nearly as bad.

 

Once again. Northwatch Keep. An Example of how the Empire allows the elves to do as they please.

 

The WGC? Well I dont see how that was truly a peace treaty. Yes it is classified as one but it undermines the very point of signing one. The AD can just undermine all Imperial attempts to recuperate just by saying "We thought that the Elder Council were going to allow the worship of Talos. It's within our right to kill them. So we did."

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Sithis is right. Cyrodiil is facing problems that are just as bad if not worse. The entirety of claiming the Empire is capable of bringing the fight to the AD is thrown right out the window when your TES character kills the Emperor. So all in all its done. If you like it or not. Its dead.

[Kayyyleb]

Hm. True enough on the goal of the Dominion but Im trying to make you realize that the religious oppression is wrong. No matter if its permanent or temporary. Its wrong and that relevant. Thats what Im pointing out. And yes the Empire is a puppet. It may be a quote from Tullius about the forces gathering to face the AD but then why would they put there most veteran legion in Skyrim to occupy it?

 

Thats a great plan. "Hm, lets put our best soldiers in Skyrim to kill the Nords and than occupy it and leave our unexperienced soldiers on the border with the AD."

 

Once again, what leadership? Oh thats right, the Elder council. The people who ordered the assassination of their leader, they are soo dedicated to this. (Sarcasm)

 

Religious oppression means nothing to the Thalmor. It's all a ploy to get Skyrim to rebel. So far it's worked perfectly on you. If you have a cold war on one side and a hot war on the other where would you send your best troops to fight? Of course they sent the best into the actual fight instead of the glaring match. Maybe if Skyrim wasn't stabbing the Empire in the back they could have all their troops on the AD's border, hmm?

 

One noble out of the entire council ordering a hit on the emperor hardly counts as the entire council rebelling.

[RighthandofSithis]

Sithis is right. Cyrodiil is facing problems that are just as bad if not worse. The entirety of claiming the Empire is capable of bringing the fight to the AD is thrown right out the window when your TES character kills the Emperor. So all in all its done. If you like it or not. Its dead.

 

I feel i should point out that the Emperor probably does have an heir. Although, when the nobles begin conspiring for power, then we really start to see that the Empire is going the way of Rome.

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

Thats funny how you say that the Stormcloaks are stabbing the Empire in the back. Well I think its clear that the Empire stabbed the Nords in the back. The Nords (Stormcloaks) just fought a war for the Empire. Not only during the great war but many, many, many times in the past. It has constantly been the Nords who bolster the ranks of the Empire.

When the Dovahkiin asks Ulfric "Why are you fighting this war?"

Ulfric: "Were fighting because were done bleeding for an Empire that wont bleed for us. Untold numbers of Nords died defending the Empire against the Dominion, and for what? Skyrim being sold to the Thalmor so the Emperor could keep his throne. Were fighting because our own Jarls, once strong, wise men, have become fearful and blind to their peoples suffering. Were fighting because Skyrim needs heroes and there's no one else but us."

I'll give you an analogy.

The British Empire is the Empire, The Nazis are the AD, and the SS are the Thalmor.

Churchill (Titus Mede II) fights Hitler (AD leader) and loses London (The Imperial City), then he retreats to Scotland (Skyrim) and asks the Scott's to fight for him. The Scott's agree and proudly march south and retake London. Hitler's army is devastated. Hitler is off balance and is unable to retaliate. His army had also invaded Ireland (Hammerfell) and was kept at bay. Churchill then asks for Hitler's terms, Hitler gives him his terms which are very similar to the ones he demanded at the beginning of the war. The treaty demands Ireland be given to the Nazis or another war will be fought. (A bluff) Ireland secedes and wages a war against Hitler for another 5 years, eventually winning and kicking him out for a time. Then it also says that the Scott's cant follow Presbyterianism, and if they do the SS are allowed to kill them as they see fit. - After all that the Scottish are pissed and a king rises, a king who fought in the war. Scotland rebels and Britain responds by sending an Army to occupy it and attempts to force them into becoming a province again. Now why would Scotland be wrong? I see no reason why they would be considered wrong by anyone.

The British Empire's darkest hour was much worse than the Empires and Churchill did not give in.

"Even though large tracts of Europe and many old and famous States have fallen or may fall into the grip of the Gestapo and all the odious apparatus of Nazi rule, we shall not flag or fail. We shall go on to the end. We shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be. We shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender, and if, which I do not for a moment believe, this island or a large part of it were subjugated and starving, then our Empire beyond the seas, armed and guarded by the British Fleet, would carry on the struggle, until, in God's good time, the New World, with all its power and might, steps forth to the rescue and the liberation of the old." Winston Churchill

Churchill represents British strength at this point. Point out all the things you don't like about him, It doesnt hurt my argument at all. The thing is, TM II is not by any means the best leader the Empire needs but he's the best they have. Now that he's dead, well the Empire wont be taking the fight to anyone anytime soon.

Churchill represents that people have devotion and that speech truly makes me realize what people will do in the face of certain doom. The British during the Second World War were brave. They faced the Nazis and didn't ever give up. The Empire in TES did. Thats when it died. It lost any chance it had on saving itself when it gave up the fight. The Nords see the fight as still going on but in other more silent forms. Therefore haven't given in yet. They still see these atrocities as crossing the line. Which is why I say the Empire deserves a much worse fate than its going to get.

Edited February 26, 2013 by Stormcloak117

[kradus]

Britain wasn't occupied and sacked in any way, and the allies outnumbered the german forces. Not a valid argument. And I'm yet to read an argument that justifies the loss of menpower from a broken empire. Any plans you make for the future would take too long to achieve and the AD have their own forces gathered at the border, just waiting for the legions to disband.

[fraquar]

 

Hm. True enough on the goal of the Dominion but Im trying to make you realize that the religious oppression is wrong. No matter if its permanent or temporary. Its wrong and that relevant. Thats what Im pointing out. And yes the Empire is a puppet. It may be a quote from Tullius about the forces gathering to face the AD but then why would they put there most veteran legion in Skyrim to occupy it?

 

Thats a great plan. "Hm, lets put our best soldiers in Skyrim to kill the Nords and than occupy it and leave our unexperienced soldiers on the border with the AD."

 

Once again, what leadership? Oh thats right, the Elder council. The people who ordered the assassination of their leader, they are soo dedicated to this. (Sarcasm)

 

Religious oppression means nothing to the Thalmor. It's all a ploy to get Skyrim to rebel. So far it's worked perfectly on you. If you have a cold war on one side and a hot war on the other where would you send your best troops to fight? Of course they sent the best into the actual fight instead of the glaring match. Maybe if Skyrim wasn't stabbing the Empire in the back they could have all their troops on the AD's border, hmm?

 

One noble out of the entire council ordering a hit on the emperor hardly counts as the entire council rebelling.

Think about this for a second. Where in Skyrim do you see any evidence whatsover of a military buildup? If the Empire was going to build up, Skyrim would be the logical place - outside of Thalmor eyes and ears - it's where all the resources for a buildup reside.

 

All this talk of buildup, ready to wage war on the Thalmor if only the Stormcloaks wouldn't be ruining things is laughable at best. Empire can't even tell the Thalmor to pound sand - that the Empire will enforce the terms of the treaty.

[sajuukkhar9000]

hink about this for a second. Where in Skyrim do you see any evidence whatsover of a military buildup? If the Empire was going to build up, Skyrim would be the logical place - outside of Thalmor eyes and ears - it's where all the resources for a buildup reside.

 

All this talk of buildup, ready to wage war on the Thalmor if only the Stormcloaks wouldn't be ruining things is laughable at best. Empire can't even tell the Thalmor to pound sand - that the Empire will enforce the terms of the treaty.

 

What resources?

-Skyrim is dependent on Cyrodiil for food

-Cyrodiil is also the center of the continent, meaning it's easier to ship things there instead of shipping them north, only for the armies to march back down south.

 

And how exactly is Skyrim outside the eyes and ears of the Thalmor? If The Empire was building up forces, the Thalmor would no no matter where they were being built up.

 

And really "lets leave the borders largely unguarded because that isn't what got us blitzkrieged by the AD the first TIME!"(/sarcasm) isn't really a good military strategy.

Edited February 26, 2013 by sajuukkhar9000