Imperial VS Stormcloak

[sisterof]

@Lithium Flower: won't quote the whole post here to avoid making this even messier! But my answers follow.
On the moons and the Thalmor: I'm aware of the importance of the Moons to the Khajiit. I'm still not convinced that it's reasonable for them to be so loyal to the Aldmeri Dominion, while being clearly put down by the Elves. I do see the relevance of your argument, though, that the Thalmor marched in claiming responsibility for the Moons' return. Also, did we get any explanation at all as to why they disappeared? All I can think of is the Moon's connection to the body of Lorkhan, and the Thalmor's hatred of him for introducing mortality (if I remember correctly - my memory is not that great). Maybe the Thalmor were the ones to cause the disappearance in the first place.

 

On Balgruuf: He's far from a hero, that's quite true. And it's also something that never occurred to me - that Fralia (and probably all Gray-Manes) had been shouting around about her missing son and Balgruuf didn't do anything about it. I'm not sure it wasn't simply Bethesda overlooking dialogue options, it seems out-of-character to me that he would simply disregard the matter altogether. He keeps leading on Ulfric and the Empire, which is something I find very interesting, he doestn't want enemies. But yes, I wasn't aware of how much it points out that he may not want the stalemate to continue, but his self-preservation does point at a disregard for his countrymen's death in civil conflict. This input is actually very good for my Dragonborn's maturing. Thanks again. :biggrin: I don't think he is utterly oblivious to the suffering of people, he does seem to care about Whiterun at least, but I had missed all those signs that he cares very little for the rest of Skyrim - caring for Whiterun could merely mean caring for his title as Jarl. Also, I had no idea about his children being involved with Mephala, all I know is that his boy is a total brat. The only clue I had so far was his housecarl mentioning she sometimes feels his own children are plotting his assassination. I still have a hard time picturing any other candidate for High King, though. He may be a jerk but the other Jarls are very weak.

 

I think the only way to bring the storylines together is to make the result of the civil war pointless. The Dominion beats the human nations down to the point where every province is broken and ragged, where neither the empire or the stormcloaks would be in action anymore. Because since either tullius or Ulfric get killed in the end of the civil war quest, any books comenting on what happened must not mention either of them as victorious.

[...]

Of course the Dragonborn would be an important character is such events, so he absolutely must first dissapear somehow. Perhaps one of the DLC's will aproach that, maybe he dies, or maybe he passes on to another plain of existance. But such a varied character cannot be summarized in any way and presented in any future title, sadly.

I must sadly agree with you on that first sentence, it has been the discussion I had with some other players.
I hope that we still get to fight and overthrow the Dominion permanently in a DLC, though. It would be an epic conclusion to what we can do with the Dragonborn. And if the Thalmor goal is indeed to end mortality and such, it would be on a divine level, suitable for a demi-god character. Perhaps the Dragonborn would turn out to be an avatar of Akatosh or Lorkhan or even Talos! Or perhaps simply ascend to godhood too, or go, as you said, to another plane of existence. He is simply too big to keep doing silly things like stopping delusional vampires and then retiring.

 

Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel.

Exactly, the Thalmor had a very strong army as shown in the Great War, but their main weapon now is sabotage and manipulation. I'm not convinced they could endure a direct attack in a battlefield. The Empire was unprepared and caught by surprise in the Great War. We had Morrowind and Black Marsh going nuts with each other, Morrowind being devastated, three provinces leaving to form the Dominion. And most of all - a weak Emperor with absolutely no inspiration. I'm inclined to believe the Thalmor could not pull another direct assault of that magnitude again. They trust the provinces to be afraid they can. And they keep feeding infighting, fear and inertia to keep what they conquered in their well-timed attack.

[kradus]

Economy can be fixed, warring nations usually hold grief towards one another. And with the empire, you have an unified army.

[Kayyyleb]

 

Considering that different sources have hinted for an upcomming war, I'd say yes. Underestimating the Dominion didn't work very well the first time.

 

But of course, overestimating them is just as bad. We know that their main tactic is deceit, and they are experts at making themselves appear stronger than they are.

 

Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel.

 

That said, you do have a point. Tamriel must prepare for another war, which, knowing its economic degeneracy, the Empire is unable to do.

You contradict yourself. You admit that the AD is trying to destroy the Empire from within (case in point: Stormcloak rebellion) suggesting they really aren't willing to risk an all out war with a unified Empire directly then you write off the Empire as too weak to contend with them. The unified armies of the multiple races in the Empire crushed the AD at Red Ring and the AD doesn't want that again so they're playing divide and conquer. Supporting the Stormcloak rebellion is directly supporting the AD's plan.

[GeneralTullius]

Economy can be fixed, warring nations usually hold grief towards one another. And with the empire, you have an unified army.

 

It depends. You would have to get the East Empire Company back on it's feet, then really stick it to the Thalmor, Bandits and Stormcloaks. You would have to bring an end to the Civil War and any opposition to restoring peace in Skyrim as soon as possible. Where there's a will, there's a way.

 

On Balgruuf: He's far from a hero, that's quite true. And it's also something that never occurred to me - that Fralia (and probably all Gray-Manes) had been shouting around about her missing son and Balgruuf didn't do anything about it. I'm not sure it wasn't simply Bethesda overlooking dialogue options, it seems out-of-character to me that he would simply disregard the matter altogether. He keeps leading on Ulfric and the Empire, which is something I find very interesting, he doestn't want enemies. But yes, I wasn't aware of how much it points out that he may not want the stalemate to continue, but his self-preservation does point at a disregard for his countrymen's death in civil conflict. This input is actually very good for my Dragonborn's maturing. Thanks again. :biggrin: I don't think he is utterly oblivious to the suffering of people, he does seem to care about Whiterun at least, but I had missed all those signs that he cares very little for the rest of Skyrim - caring for Whiterun could merely mean caring for his title as Jarl. Also, I had no idea about his children being involved with Mephala, all I know is that his boy is a total brat. The only clue I had so far was his housecarl mentioning she sometimes feels his own children are plotting his assassination. I still have a hard time picturing any other candidate for High King, though. He may be a jerk but the other Jarls are very weak.

 

I truly fail to see how Jarl Baalgruuf the Greater is anything but a hero to his people, to Whiterun. Whiterun is practically the only non-Stormcloak hold in Skyrim that allows freedom of Speech and Talos worship. Saying he's not a hero is cutting the man very short. The Jarl really doesn't want to side with anyone and if anything, he puts his people's interests (and Skyrim's with the dragons) first before the Empire's. It's the Stormcloaks which force him to eventually side with the Empire. I whole-heartedly respect him for not wanting to submit to foreign authorities and allow them to determine the affairs of his people and their hold. It's also interesting to me how the Jarl forces the Empire to agree to his terms before letting the Empire garrison troops, not to mention how the Empire doesn't force itself into Whiterun. And if the Empire is somehow at fault in Whiterun, it's not on Jarl Baalgruuf because had the Stormcloaks not threatened his people, the Empire would not have had to re-enforce Whiterun hold in the first place. Finally, if Whiterun is free, autonomous and minds it's own business, then the Stormcloaks aggression is conflict of interest for them, meaning the Stormcloaks are oppressing free people. Admittedly, Whiterun is friendly to Imperial traffic, yet refuses Imperial rule and then hostile to the Stormcloaks, yet refuses Stormcloak rule, that's their choice. For the Stormcloak to attack Whiterun is a Great Red Warning Sign of Oppression, no matter the reason. Is this the way the Stormcloaks will deal with other free nations once the Empire is gone? So far Stormcloak diplomacy hasn't worked out very well in the Reach or for Whiterun. :/

 

 

 

RighthandofSithis, on 07 Mar 2013 - 18:49, said:http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_images/underground/snapback.png

 

kradus, on 07 Mar 2013 - 17:52, said:http://forums.nexusmods.com/public/style_images/underground/snapback.png

 

Considering that different sources have hinted for an upcomming war, I'd say yes. Underestimating the Dominion didn't work very well the first time.

But of course, overestimating them is just as bad. We know that their main tactic is deceit, and they are experts at making themselves appear stronger than they are.

 

Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel.

 

That said, you do have a point. Tamriel must prepare for another war, which, knowing its economic degeneracy, the Empire is unable to do.

You contradict yourself. You admit that the AD is trying to destroy the Empire from within (case in point: Stormcloak rebellion) suggesting they really aren't willing to risk an all out war with a unified Empire directly then you write off the Empire as too weak to contend with them. The unified armies of the multiple races in the Empire crushed the AD at Red Ring and the AD doesn't want that again so they're playing divide and conquer. Supporting the Stormcloak rebellion is directly supporting the AD's plan.

 

Exactly. If the Damn Elves are trying to destroy the Empire from within, I think we owe it to ourselves to try and understand why before doing anything. And I would conjecture, if you can't understand this then rebelling is pointless in the first place. Elves think in long terms and if it is true that they are behind the Stormcloaks, then there is a lie in the Stormcloaks cause somewhere. And the Empire, though Titus Mede II has betrayed us, has something Good left in it still that the Thalmor want destroyed.

Edited March 8, 2013 by GeneralTullius

[sisterof]

Supporting the Stormcloak rebellion is directly supporting the AD's plan.

I disagree with that. Keeping the Civil War in a stalemate is supporting the Aldmeri Dominion's plan. It means depleting both sides of resources. Remember the dossier in the Embassy clearly estates they do not want the Stormcloaks to win. Stalemate for them is good. Empire winning for them is good. The only thing in our hands to upset them is not letting either of those things happen.

 

As for why they want the Empire destroyed - I think it has everything to do with simply wiping out resistance to their plan to stablish the High Elves as a superior race (and maybe the rumoured goal to end mortality?), and start another era with the Elves reigning supreme.

 

I'd like to point out that the argument that we must fight to keep the Empire strong and then counter-attack has a huge issue - the Empire doesn't exist anymore. No Emperor endorsed by the Divines. No control over any province other than Cyrodiil and High Rock, absolutely no plans in 25 years (!!!) to act against the rapid downfall.

 

I agree that separating Skyrim from the Empire feels a lot like falling for a "divide and conquer" scheme. Separating is far, far from an ideal course of action - more like a desperate measure. But the Empire is already a corpse, it has no fight left in it as it is. It's a matter of not letting it drag down all provinces, as Hammerfell understood. I think we will see in a next game a new Divines-endorsed Emperor, Talos-level, unifying everything again. As it is, weakening Skyrim by cutting the rebellion (and Tullius believes that killing Ulfric will not end the contempt for the Empire, it may feed it even more), is the worst we can do - though our options are very limited already. While the Empire still has control over Skyrim, the Thalmor are free to sabotage Men's resources.

Edited March 8, 2013 by sisterof

[Jaradin]

 

sisterof, on 07 Mar 2013 - 13:23, said:

A question for you guys et gals: how do you think the Civil War outcome will be addressed at all in future games? I've ranted about it recently on my tumblr but only a forum can give significant feedback. I think they will say something along the lines of "a lot of chaos happened and then X stepped in and restored order". This X could be the Empire suddenly growing back its balls. It could be the Thalmor. Or it could be another revolutionary - remember that Tullius mentions, after killing Ulfric, that he's afraid he made a martyr, the Stormcloak Rebellion is led by Ulfric but he is far from the only one wishing it, half the population does. Those outcomes would "dust under the rug" the Civil War, which I believe is necessary for lore. How else would Bethesda deal with it, short of outright saying "Tullius won/Ulfric won" and s***ing over the player's canon? So far, they never did that.

Another question: probably most people ignored my previous post, it was long, so I'll repeat that point here: the Empire has existed as a unifying power backed by the Divines. Now that it has no "sponsorship" by Akatosh or any god, being instead simply a political/economical organization, what is its reason for being? Morrowind is all but destroyed, Black Marsh is hardly an ally if it attacked another province, Elsewyr/Valenwood aligned with the Dominion, Hammerfell bailed out. There is no Divines-chosen lineage, there is no territorial strength. Is there even an Empire left?

 

 

kradus, on 07 Mar 2013 - 17:02, said:

I think the only way to bring the storylines together is to make the result of the civil war pointless. The Dominion beats the human nations down to the point where every province is broken and ragged, where neither the empire or the stormcloaks would be in action anymore. Because since either tullius or Ulfric get killed in the end of the civil war quest, any books comenting on what happened must not mention either of them as victorious.

The civil war isn't fully over either, because there are enemy strongholds in the land, and the empire would still technically be at war with Ulfric if he was victorious. So all that can to be mentioned in a neutral book is that there was a civil war, before the downfall of the empire. Neither faction can be counted as victorious.

And the next game would start with the nations of man in a miserable situation, with new leaders figting a losing guerrila war against the enemy who brought them low. Then the new hero would help unite them, and with some mystical help(via elder scrolls), perhaps help one of those leaders beat the powerfull armies of the Dominion, plus whatever monsters they pull out of their asses, and reach emperor status. That's one way, however the playfield must be leveled first.

Of course the Dragonborn would be an important character is such events, so he absolutely must first dissapear somehow. Perhaps one of the DLC's will aproach that, maybe he dies, or maybe he passes on to another plain of existance. But such a varied character cannot be summarized in any way and presented in any future title, sadly.

 

I don't think it's fair to say that the outcome of the Civil War will be "pointless." After all, the events of The Elder Scrolls never link together, so in some regard they're always "pointless." However, their importance is instead on how it affects the lore. The Nerevarine had no influence over the events of the Oblivion Crisis, though his quest did lead to the fall of the Tribunal Temple, the death of two demi-gods and the departure of the third, and the inevitable chaos of Dunmeri politics without a religious foundation. The Hero of Kvatch had no influence over the events of the Alduin Crisis, but he did partake in the rise of the Potentate Ocato succeeding Emperors Uriel and Martin Septim which opened the door for the Altmeri schism we now see between the Thalmor Fascists and the Imperial loyalists (after all, not all Altmer are loyal to the Dominion - I've seen some serving in the Legions during Skyrim). Therefore, the actions of the Dragonborn and their actions in Skyrim will not directly influence the events of The Elder Scrolls VI, but it will establish the lore of a war-torn province which drained the Legion of valuable troops and bodies for what could very well be another Great War just a few decades down the line.

 

Because the truth is that the war did not end because the Empire fought the Thalmor back, they merely fought them to a truce. For all we know the Thalmor calculated that continued losses in the war would spread their resources and bodies too thin to govern and placate the occupied provinces beyond, and beyond Elves with the gift of prolonged life, they opted for patience. They knew that allowing the Empire to live was a death sentence, and beyond clever, they began a campaign to drag down the Empire's remaining provinces. Hammerfell's gone, High Rock is likely impotent, Cyrodiil ravaged economically, Skyrim now torn by a terrible civil war. Even if the Empire won that Civil War, they have to occupy and maintain Skyrim for the next few decades, drawing significant troops from the front lines.

 

Further, there's no reason why the Aldmeri Dominion cannot ally themselves with the Argonians - if they're willing to take the Khajiit as second-class citizens by beguiling their superstitious with wild claims and threatening their clever with force of arms, what's stopping them from pursing such relations with the new Argonian leadership? The Argonians are clearly aggressive now, capable assassins and saboteurs, and their entry or at least allegiance would be valuable. It's likely that their province will be the next to fall or splinter away. All that'll leave is Cyrodiil, High Rock, and possibly Skyrim (and Hammerfell, presuming they're not conquered in the preliminary invasions), and each is damaged in some way.

 

Perhaps it'll take the war twenty years to restart - perhaps forty - what matters is that the Aldmeri have that time, the rulers of Men do not. They're already fragmented, suspicious of one another, incapable of unifying without a capable leader. And if the Thalmor wait out Titus Mede the Second - whether he was assassinated or not - they'll likely have no other opposition to face, and it'l be a matter of sabotage. And the Aldmeri Dominion is more than capable - masters of magic, stealth, and assassination, they are the ultimate threat both during and after a Cold War.

 

And I suspect that there won't be another Great War. The Aldmeri will have learned their lesson. They'll wait until the Empire follows the way of Rome and collapse upon itself, and all they'll need to do is march in, eliminate the remnants, and save the populace from anarchy and chaos. We might even find that the Aldmeri Dominion is "heralded" as the saviors of Tamriel from the chaos of Men - or the propaganda will tell us so. Perhaps in The Elder Scrolls VI the tables will turn: Men shall be despised and discriminated, and the Beast Races shall be honored (but looked down upon) by the Elves.

 

That's my suspicions. I just hope that it'll all be saved for Elder Scrolls VI - the Thalmor are too epic to be concluded so soon. Let's keep the next DLC (and any to follow, if we're lucky) on the adventures of the Dragonborn.

[Kayyyleb]

 

Supporting the Stormcloak rebellion is directly supporting the AD's plan.

I disagree with that. Keeping the Civil War in a stalemate is supporting the Aldmeri Dominion's plan. It means depleting both sides of resources. Remember the dossier in the Embassy clearly estates they do not want the Stormcloaks to win. Stalemate for them is good. Empire winning for them is good. The only thing in our hands to upset them is not letting either of those things happen.

 

As for why they want the Empire destroyed - I think it has everything to do with simply wiping out resistance to their plan to stablish the High Elves as a superior race (and maybe the rumoured goal to end mortality?), and start another era with the Elves reigning supreme.

 

I'd like to point out that the argument that we must fight to keep the Empire strong and then counter-attack has a huge issue - the Empire doesn't exist anymore. No Emperor endorsed by the Divines. No control over any province other than Cyrodiil and High Rock, absolutely no plans in 25 years (!!!) to act against the rapid downfall.

 

I agree that separating Skyrim from the Empire feels a lot like falling for a "divide and conquer" scheme. Separating is far, far from an ideal course of action - more like a desperate measure. But the Empire is already a corpse, it has no fight left in it as it is. It's a matter of not letting it drag down all provinces, as Hammerfell understood. I think we will see in a next game a new Divines-endorsed Emperor, Talos-level, unifying everything again. As it is, weakening Skyrim by cutting the rebellion (and Tullius believes that killing Ulfric will not end the contempt for the Empire, it may feed it even more), is the worst we can do - though our options are very limited already. While the Empire still has control over Skyrim, the Thalmor are free to sabotage Men's resources.

Empire weakening is good for the AD. The Empire losing Skyrim is good for the AD. Sure the AD want the Empire to "win" the Civil War after losing thousands of troops in a drawn out war that bleeds both sides dry which is exactly what the rebellion was going to do until the interference of the Dragonborn you'd do well to remember. That's their goal. The only reason why they really care about the Empire eventually coming out on top is so that the WGC still applies in Skyrim, everything else about a swift Imperial victory is bad for them. The Stormcloak rebellion is at its roots an AD masterminded plan to weaken humans regardless of how it turns out.

 

Frankly I have no idea why the Thalmor seem to think a Stormcloak victory is viewed as bad for them in the end. It reduces the strength of the Empire by a staggering ~30%.

 

The Empire most certainly does still exist. Just because the guy in charge has a different last name doesn't mean the Empire ceases to exist. Frankly why should we care if the emperor is buddies with the gods? As I mentioned earlier, Talos and company didn't do us any good in the last war so why should anyone care about them now? The Imperial Legion retook the Imperial City and forced the AD back, not the Divines. If the gods want to be glorified for saving mankind then they're welcome to get around to doing it anytime but expecting everyone to suck up to them as advance payment first? No thanks.

Edited March 8, 2013 by Kayyyleb

[sisterof]

 

I truly fail to see how Jarl Baalgruuf the Greater is anything but a hero to his people, to Whiterun. Whiterun is practically the only non-Stormcloak hold in Skyrim that allows freedom of Speech and Talos worship. Saying he's not a hero is cutting the man very short. The Jarl really doesn't want to side with anyone and if anything, he puts his people's interests (and Skyrim's with the dragons) first before the Empire's. It's the Stormcloaks which force him to eventually side with the Empire. I whole-heartedly respect him for not wanting to submit to foreign authorities and allow them to determine the affairs of his people and their hold. It's also interesting to me how the Jarl forces the Empire to agree to his terms before letting the Empire garrison troops, not to mention how the Empire doesn't force itself into Whiterun. And if the Empire is somehow at fault in Whiterun, it's not on Jarl Baalgruuf because had the Stormcloaks not threatened his people, the Empire would not have had to re-enforce Whiterun hold in the first place. Finally, if Whiterun is free, autonomous and minds it's own business, then the Stormcloaks aggression is conflict of interest for them, meaning the Stormcloaks are oppressing free people. Admittedly, Whiterun is friendly to Imperial traffic, yet refuses Imperial rule and then hostile to the Stormcloaks, yet refuses Stormcloak rule, that's their choice. For the Stormcloak to attack Whiterun is a Great Red Warning Sign of Oppression, no matter the reason. Is this the way the Stormcloaks will deal with other free nations once the Empire is gone? So far Stormcloak diplomacy hasn't worked out very well in the Reach or for Whiterun. :/

I shared your opinion until not long ago, but now I'm having doubts. It's really hard to ignore that Balgruuf is letting the war drag on by not taking sides, which means he's largely uncaring of Skyrim as a whole. He also disregards the Thalmor kidnappings, as we were talking about before in the thread. I agree he does a great job at taking Imperial coin without bowing to the White Gold Concordat - Talos statue + mad priest and such and he lets them be. Let's not forget that Ulfric himself seems to respect Balgruuf as a "true Nord", which speaks volumes, and having to dethrone him was one of the most bitter things I had to do when I took a quick look at the Civil War questline (didn't save it, though, just went through it to help me make my Dragonborn's mind about it). I'm still very much undecided on what to think about Balgruuf.

 

Frankly I have no idea why the Thalmor seem to think a Stormcloak victory is viewed as bad for them in the end. It reduces the strength of the Empire by a staggering ~30%.

 

The Empire most certainly does still exist. Just because the guy in charge has a different last name doesn't mean the Empire ceases to exist. Frankly why should we care if the emperor is buddies with the gods? As I mentioned earlier, Talos and company didn't do us any good in the last war so why should anyone care about them now? The Imperial Legion retook the Imperial City and forced the AD back, not the Divines. If the gods want to be glorified for saving mankind then they're welcome to get around to doing it anytime but expecting everyone to suck up to them as advance payment first? No thanks.

The Stormcloaks winning is bad for them because they lose their ears and eyes in Skyrim. Where the Empire is, their agents have absolute freedom to act, pillage, kidnap, torture, spy, sabotage, and so on.

The First Empire was founded through divine intervention, through Alessia. Every Emperor since then had a very religious (non economical/political) reason for existing: lighting the Dragonfires and keeping the Gates of Oblivion shut. Talos was the first to truly unify all of Tamriel - again, Divine intervention, he was a Dragonborn and perhaps an avatar of Lorkhan, and still we have the religious purpose of the Dragonfires. When Martin Septim dies, and once more... taking upon him the avatar of Akatosh, is when the Empire loses its alliance with the Divines. Of course it's not a blood/lineage thing, but for some reason no other is chosen to take his place. And then Talos gets excluded from the pantheon, the very person who unified Tamriel. That's what I mean by the connection with the Gods. TES is a fantasy game where supreme beings meddle with mortals all the time and shape nearly everything in the world.

 

Bear in mind that the Dragonfires are not necessary anymore - Martin/Akatosh closed the gates permanently, barring any Daedric Lord from physically manifesting in Mundus. I'm not sure the Empire is even needed. If it's only for political reasons, it's already dead. And the Imperials weren't always the dominating race. In that regard, empires rise and fall. Perhaps it's time this one goes too. As someone just mentioned a few posts above, the Empire is quite in the footsteps of Rome - rotting from within.

 

A question for everyone: what do you guys think of this series of events all connecting to Lorkhan? The Moons, supposedly his physical body, disappearing and reappearing. Talos, who could be his avatar, joining the ranks of the Divines (Lorkhan himself being the Missing God) and then having his worship banned. The Thalmor perhaps wanting to overcome mortality - which was introduced by Lorkhan. And I still think the Dragonborn could have some connection to him too.

 

BTW, I'll laugh and cry bitter tears of cynical disappointment if Bethesda takes another leap similar to what it did from Morrowind to Oblivion and then from Oblivion to Skyrim, making the game way.. well, less requiring of intelligence. And if all these theories we make are disregarded and ignored through bad writing. And if all these open questions are not used properly in the next game. And if what we think is duality and grey morality is actually Bethesda writing itself into a corner, and that they won't deal with the Civil War outcome properly. :dry:

Edited March 8, 2013 by sisterof

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

Considering that different sources have hinted for an upcomming war, I'd say yes. Underestimating the Dominion didn't work very well the first time.

 

But of course, overestimating them is just as bad. We know that their main tactic is deceit, and they are experts at making themselves appear stronger than they are.

 

Looking at their strategy, it would seem they are more interested in putting pressure on the empire, and destroying it from within. they want the Empire to collapse, with Skyrim and High Rock going with it (which is why they don't want a definite victor in the war), allowing them to instill a puppet government over half of Tamriel.

 

That said, you do have a point. Tamriel must prepare for another war, which, knowing its economic degeneracy, the Empire is unable to do.

You contradict yourself. You admit that the AD is trying to destroy the Empire from within (case in point: Stormcloak rebellion) suggesting they really aren't willing to risk an all out war with a unified Empire directly then you write off the Empire as too weak to contend with them. The unified armies of the multiple races in the Empire crushed the AD at Red Ring and the AD doesn't want that again so they're playing divide and conquer. Supporting the Stormcloak rebellion is directly supporting the AD's plan.

 

I suppose my comment could be seen as contradictory. Allow me to explain.

 

The Dominion is indeed preparing for another war (suggested by igmund, their dossiers Ondolemar), however, given the suggestion that they are unable to reproduce quickly (as previously discussed), and thus an inability to 'quickly' rebuild their army, they have opted to attempt to force the Empire onto its knees in the meantime (as suggested by their tactics, history, dossiers, and Ondolemar). By bringing the Empire to its knees, it will be able to place a complete puppet onto the throne of Cyrodiil, allowing them to control Cyrodiil, high Rock and Skyrim without even going to war. Thus, we must be prepared for both.

 

Aiding the Stormcloaks will not fall into this plan. In fact, it will completely shatter it (forcing them into war, the domain of the Nords). Because, as previously discussed, Skyrim is able to sustain itself, and will not be dragged down with Cyrodiil,nor will it succumb to an Aldmeri puppet. As such, it will be at least able to provide some resistance, at the very least (instead of laying down at the Dominion's feet).

[RighthandofSithis]

Economy can be fixed, warring nations usually hold grief towards one another. And with the empire, you have an unified army.

 

True, economies can be fixed, under decent circumstances. However, the very dynamiuc of collapsing Empires is that it is almost impossible to do so. Gang violence in the capital, civil war in the north, piracy in the west, decimation and hostility from the east all make it impossible to recover from a war that devastated the entire economy and military of the Empire, and destroyed an entire province and a cycle of collapse that has been going on for 200 years.

 

I know what you will say 'but if the rebels stop'. The thing is, they won't. The very nature of a revolution is to screw the boss over. Make whatever argument to them you want, they won't listen. Saying you are weak and need to recover will make them even more zealous!

 

So why can't we just put down the rebellion by force? For a few reasons. 1. it makes you even more hated, and another rebellion may happen in the future (look at russia, for example). 2. it spends your already dwindling resources attempting to win. Look at rome, which was faced with various barbarian invasions. They put down these invasions, bit by bit, they collapsed even further. Look again at Russia, who was fighting a fierce war at the time of a rebellion. Look at Britain etc etc.

 

So what is the Solution? Clear the table and start again. It is better to face your foe while you are building up, not falling down. And it is much easier to build up when you already have some foundation to do so.