Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Ho Chi Minh died before the Vietnam war finished, Osama Bin-Laden has died, yet I assure you, the Afghan War will continue (and judging by the american strategy, the Taliban and Al-Qaeda will probably win the war).

Without Jarls and towns on their side, any remaining stormcloaks are no more significant than bandits, from a strategic and political point of view. The remaining Jarls are all on the empire's side, so non of them is likely to do what Ulfric did.

Dawnstar, Riften, Winterhold, as pointed out above whiterun would follow without Ulfric in the picture, and of course Windhelm, are all Devoted to the Stormcloaks.

Dawnstar's people don't really give a crap about the war. Skald is the only one and he's very unpopular for it so don't expect Dawnstar to keep fighting. Riften is also generally uninterested in the war. Laila supports Ulfric but is more concerned about Riften's affairs than the Stormcloak cause and the people are too busy complaining about the corruption in their own city to care about the war. Meanwhile, Winterhold's population of 5 is completely useless in fighting a rebellion. The hardcore Stormcloaks are pretty much all based in Windhelm, and one hold isn't going to hold out against the Legion.

I was talking politically. The people in the TES universe have no say in politics. And in Riften, we know that there are various nobles (Including the Jarls family) who are strongly against the Empire, so I would say they have an interest in fighting the Legion.

 

And by that argument, if Ulfric were to assassinate Tullius, then the Imperials would have no support. A number of Falkreath's population are stormcloak supporters, Morthal and Whiterun are neutral, Markarth has its own problems.

 

And kradus, that makes sense. I said that the only way to win is to eliminate the support base of the enemy.

The people in Riften who support the Empire suspiciously end up in jail for it...so obviously the Stormcloaks have more support in Riften than the Empire. But my point was that there's very little support for the war in the common people (which supposedly is who the Stormcloaks are fighting for) and you can't fight a war without soldiers who are willing to fight it. If Ulfric were to assasinate Tullius I don't think it would matter much honestly. The emperor could easily just send down another general to take his place. Tullius isn't as pivotal to the Legion as Ulfric is to the Stormcloaks. He may be an influential person in Skyrim due to his position, but it's because of his position more than the man himself (although I personally find him to be a strong and capable leader).

 

A rebellion of emotional, angry people led by an inspiring hero type suffers far more from losing it's leader than a disciplined military structure with a chain of command in place to fill positions when casualties occur. Rikke would probably temporarily fill in for Tullius until either her official promotion to general or a replacement arrives from Cyrodiil. Regardless, the Legion isn't going to break apart because their CO dies. Legionnaires didn't sign on to fight for Tullius but rather out of either loyalty to the Empire itself or some other reasons. Legionnaires don't swear loyalty to Tullius (rather just the officers in command) like Stormcloaks have to swear loyalty to Ulfric specifically.

 

In regards to the first point, i never said that the Stormcloaks were democratic or fighting for the people. They are in fact fighting for the Nordic Aristocracy, and draw most of their support from a wide varited of people (including the armies of the Jarls).

 

The second point actually undermines the theory of permanat revolution- that once a revolution begins, it will not stop until the people get what they wanted (or that's part of it). We see that now in Egypt.

The Stormcloaks and their leaders say they are fighting for the people almost like it's their motto. It would be more accurate to say they want the people to fight for them however.

 

Egypt's rebellion is unlikely to turn out very well in the end due to the tendencies of people in the Middle East in general to fall victim to tyranny, war and internal strife as a result of poverty, religious extremism and the self-interested aristocracy and foreign meddling. Not really a prime example of how you want something like the Stormcloak rebellion to turn out in the long term. That said, what the Stormcloaks want more than anything else is the repeal of the WGC. In the short term you can overthrow the Empire and get it but weaken yourself in the long term or you can tough it out for the time being and work with the Empire to take down the root of the problem by winning the next Great War and accomplishing the same thing.

 

I never said the Stormcloaks were fighting for the people. I believe they are not. Ulfric is fighting for the Nordic Aristocracy to be free of Imperial rule.

 

And I'd imagine there is a no RL politics rule in place, but I shall address the issue of Egypt anyway. Mass revolutions, such as those seen in Egypt do not simply die down and let a Dictator rule them. They continue. Why do you think that Morsi is now being challenged? Because the people have seen that they are capable of fighting for themselves. This is 'class conciousness'. Whenever the people challenge the system and win, they begin to demand more and more. They do not simply sit down, they must either win, or be put down by force.

 

Which is where the Skyrim comes in. The Stormcloaks and their supporters (ie, the Jarls of the Old Holds) will not simply back down if Ulfric dies, they know they can challenge the system, and they will.

[fraquar]

Between quotes taking up 1/2 of a page because the quoting system doesn't work and peoples sigs taking up a 1/4 of a page, I'll simply refrain from doing any more quoting.

 

Suffice it to say if there was no dragon, I'd expect the events at Helgen would have brought Balgruuf off the fence and onto the Stormcloak side. In what was supposed to be a clandestine operation the Thalmor were waiting for them to roll into Helgen, and who is the first person Tullius is seen talking to once he enters Helgen? Elenwen.

 

No dragon, word of those events and details gets back to Balgruuf. Balgruuf is perfectly fine sitting on the fence with Ulfric alive, he is probably going to see the real reasons behind why Ulfric was fighting and not be blinded by Ulfric's bravado once he's dead.

[terlaN592]

in my opinion Balgruuf just wanted to keep his Whiterun throne , as the other "Empire licking Gold picking" Jarls of skyrim all he needed was"Chests of Gold" and a reason for positive sighn of the agreement between Thalmor and Empire called White-gold concordat (Which forced empire to deny Talos), as he admittes by the conversation during the quest "Message to Whiterun"
Ireleth:"Was it cowardly then to accept White-gold Concordat?.."
Balgruf:"This again?! That was different! Was i given a chance to object the terms of treaty?! No! The jarls were not asked, we were told, and we had to like it"
Proventus:"the chest of gold didnt hurt.."
Balgruf:"damnit! This isnt about the gold!"
ME: "of course you *ss*ole :biggrin: "
Balgruf wants to keep his loyalty to Empire and to show himself as a true nord to Ulfric, to keep their armies away from Whiterun as long as its possible, anad at last he sides with the Empire , because he thought that "the Empire is strong, and must be victorius, and only this way he can keep his throne"
Naaah! i wanted to kill him! but he is Essential..damnit!

& sorry for my english

Edited March 10, 2013 by terlaN592

[blackninja50]

@terlaN592 No. Balgruuf is clearly stated to only care about Whiterun and it's people (that's this fing job after all) saying he is only in it for the gold is like saying all the stormcloak Jarls are nothing but warmongers. Also compared to the silver bloods (stormcloak) Balgruuf is not greedy in the lest.

[Kayyyleb]

I see no evidence whatsoever to suggest that Balgruuf is suddenly going to have a complete change of heart and join the Stormcloaks just because Ulfric dies. I have no idea how people are coming up with this.

[LithiumPower]

I didn't argue that Balgruuf would join Stormcloaks, I was speculating that he might because it wouldn't be a complete change of heart - that would be like Tullius having a complete change of heart at Ulfric's death and defecting to the Stormcloaks - something that clearly wouldn't happen.

 

Balgruuf is on the fence, he could go either way and plenty of evidence exists to suggest that he's primarily concerned about retaining his position, we were speculating that with Ulfric out of the way, there would be a vacuum and it could influence where he lands when he tips off his fence.

[Kayyyleb]

I didn't argue that Balgruuf would join Stormcloaks, I was speculating that he might because it wouldn't be a complete change of heart - that would be like Tullius having a complete change of heart at Ulfric's death and defecting to the Stormcloaks - something that clearly wouldn't happen.

 

Balgruuf is on the fence, he could go either way and plenty of evidence exists to suggest that he's primarily concerned about retaining his position, we were speculating that with Ulfric out of the way, there would be a vacuum and it could influence where he lands when he tips off his fence.

Someone who sits on the fence as long as Balgruuf did is very unlikely to suddenly join the losing side in an unpopular war. That would only prolong it. Balgruuf is more interested in Whiterun than either side of the war, and choosing the winning side benefits Whiterun more than trying to even out the odds in a war he didn't care for in the first place.

[kradus]

None of the other Jarls even try to start a rebelion without Ulfric doing it first. Why would the empire loyal Jarls restart the rebelion after the stormcloaks have been defeated? I see no sence in this.

Edited March 10, 2013 by kradus

[HighkingUlfricStormcloak]

But as we can see from TES history factions can be started at nearly anytime. What I cant stand is that you cant kill the legates in the camps without mods. Thats really annoying.

 

Ulfric is the leader of a faction that his people started. He is fighting for the Stormcloaks which are Nords that want independence. I was once a die hard Imperial and rushed to kill Stormcloaks at first site. Then I got the Jagged Crown, I was kind of thrown off balance by it and then looked up the Stormcloaks and the Great War and looked into the events of TES V Skyrim and saw what I had done. I ran the Crown to Ulfric and asked to join the Stormcloaks. I never looked back from that.

[LithiumPower]

Kayyleb,

 

Firstly, it's not an unpopular war - that would imply a majority do not want the war at all and that's untrue. Even if only 50% of the population supports the war - that's a huge number! But we can assume the vast majority of the "unseen" population of Skyrim are nords and we can assume the nords we do meet in game and talk to represent the sentiments of these untold masses. Of the nords we meet, most support the war whole-hardheartedly. The people who don't count as outright stormcoak supporters are non-nords (which we can assume are an over-all minority) or 'don't care either way' with the exception of the Battle-Borns and that one Snow-Shod son engaged to the Emperor's cousin. They went to the whole length of putting in Roggvir, his execution and family to show-case that even in the heart of imperial power, in Solitude there are those who'd stand up for Ulfric and filled Castle Dour Dungeons with oppressed and persecuted nords. So in short, calling it an unpopular war is just false.

 

As for Balgruuf, the stormcloak rebellion would not have died with Ulfric - that's been argued before. Even Tullius doesn't believe it'll die down, in fact he fears and expects it'll get worse and he wants to brace for that in his post-victory speech dialogue. If Balgruuf can see an opportunity for self-advancement in taking it up (which we argued would exist), it would definitely be in his character to make a move for it.

 

Kradus,

 

We don't know how many Jarls were carrying on the stormcloak struggle while Ulfric was in prison but we do know the war was on-going. The Snow-Shod patriach - Wulfiurth talks about his daughter who had joined the stormcloaks early on- and had been killed many years ago. There's also the Solaf in Falkreath who talks of Stormcloak battles years in the past. All we have to go on is that Igmund places the birth of the Stormcloaks in 176, when the Empire reneged on its terms agreed with Ulfric and that Ulfric was thereafter in prison until Toryyg was crowned HK. There was an unspecified lapse of time from when he was crowned until Ulfric challenged him in 201. All this time, with or without Ulfric the Stormcloaks have been fighting and I can't imagine the battle continuing without any Jarls behind it, but there just isn't enough information to go on. We don't know how long Ulfric was in prison. We don't even know how long Toryyg had been High King before he was killed.

 

HKUS,

 

That's exactly my story. I started an imperial because I wanted to play a descendant of my old imperial character from Oblivion and I joined the Empire even after they tried to kill me. I tried, I really did to find some modicum of respect for Tullius and a reason to support the Empire. I talked to every NPC I came across, read up online and in-game and ended up leaving the Civil War as the very last major questline because I couldn't bring myself to act against the stormcloaks. When I finally got around to progressing in the questline, I was so disgusted at killing people only resisting outright oppression, I just took the Jagged Crown to Ulfric and accepted him, warts and all.