Imperial VS Stormcloak

[RighthandofSithis]

And to keep on topic - I... don't really have anything to add. Maybe we're done with the discussion until someone new comes along and we'll go through the same arguments for another month? :biggrin:

 

Just 2 more pages.

 

I may ask this question to Imperial supporters to get some discussion flowing again:

 

With my very public analysis of the Empire's current state (and if anyone wants me to restate it for them, simply ask), I'd like to ask, how is the Empire able to come back from this? Taking into consideration the Economic, Military and Political issues.

[Kayyyleb]

SC2 HotS comes out and I disappear for a while only to find out everyone became friends in this thread and are talking about voice actors lol.

[RighthandofSithis]

Personally, I think either could survive, things would just change. They would each carry on in different ways. Both will be stumbling around, lost and broke after the Civil War. Even once Skyrim is liberated by Ulfric, there will be much work to do. Most times I've played Empire, but I've learned to respect the Stormcloaks along the way. It would be kool to see what would become of each in the end, I think we would also have much to learn from joining the Thalmor. As far as specifics on the Empire, whether or not they survive will be based not on Military, as much as leadership. Most of their ills are within their control but you must have a capable leader who believes in the "old ways", like Ulfric and the Stormcloaks do. Someone old skool who knows the score and who is humble towards his people. This is the problem. I'm afraid however, even if this person were to show up he/she would still have their flaws. No body's perfect. Like Ulfric, he has his flaws, however he's a very magnetic leader who himself is old skool. Ulfric gets the job done, although many question his ways. The Empire started from somewhere and the Stormcloaks could just be that next Empire. Or not. We don't really know how this next phase is going to go down in the upcoming DLC. Maybe not Ulfric, maybe someone else will takeover what he started. Maybe the Empire could yet come around, perhaps an end to the Civil War thru a quest. At this stage in the game, options are on the table. We'll all just have to be patient, try and relax :smile: and find out what happens later on. We all have our choices to make.

I feel that the Empire's ills are out of control, what with the never ending conflict making it impossible to rebuild, political corruption with Officials willing to Murder the Emperor and a military stretched thin as a biscuit.

Edited March 13, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[sisterof]

SC2 HotS comes out and I disappear for a while only to find out everyone became friends in this thread and are talking about voice actors lol.

The sooner people agree to disagree, the sooner we get to the mead hall to celebrate our shared love of Skyrim. :biggrin:

 

I think I finished my side of the argument with post uh... #918. There's no right choice, no better choice, no side that will have a better chance of winning against the Thalmor. You have a checklist with pros/cons of either side. It's all a matter of what character are you playing and what he thinks is the most important. People get aggressive and/or defensive because humans want to do "the right thing" or "the wrong thing" - be the savior or the monster. We kinda have a BSOD when there is no clear line between hero and villain, when we can't worship one side and demonize the other.

[LithiumPower]

The empire is pretty much dead. Tiber Septim's dynasty is history already and Titus Mede's is ended too. No matter what happens in the civil war, there has to be a major upset in the next installment to reset the chessboard as it were.

 

EDIT: Sisterof, Thanks for the heads up about The Vikings. I watched the first episode before bed last night and it was like starting Skyrim all over again. I commented to my brother that either Bethesda really did their research into the clothes, armour, weapons, lifestyle etc or Michael Hirst played Skyrim and decided to make a live-action machinima. I'm not sure which is cooler.

Edited March 13, 2013 by Lithium Flower

[screendrop]

 

SC2 HotS comes out and I disappear for a while only to find out everyone became friends in this thread and are talking about voice actors lol.

The sooner people agree to disagree, the sooner we get to the mead hall to celebrate our shared love of Skyrim. :biggrin:

 

I think I finished my side of the argument with post uh... #918. There's no right choice, no better choice, no side that will have a better chance of winning against the Thalmor. You have a checklist with pros/cons of either side. It's all a matter of what character are you playing and what he thinks is the most important. People get aggressive and/or defensive because humans want to do "the right thing" or "the wrong thing" - be the savior or the monster. We kinda have a BSOD when there is no clear line between hero and villain, when we can't worship one side and demonize the other.

But from a practical, purely objective point of view, it is hypothetically true that bias aside, one side would have a greater chance of defeating the Thalmor, correct?

[sisterof]

But from a practical, purely objective point of view, it is hypothetically true that bias aside, one side would have a greater chance of defeating the Thalmor, correct?

I really don't think so, screendrop. People on both sides on this thread have both brought up excellent points on why Skyrim could stand up alone or not. Highly simplifying the whole issue, I think we're stuck with either a lonely province or a dying empire. Neither are strong enough to withstand the Thalmor as it is. IF the Empire would get its act together and do something, but it doesn't. IF Skyrim could ally itself with other provinces. But neither of those things are offered ingame. So as far as the Civil War questline goes, in my opinion, no side is stronger than the other. It is purely a question of roleplaying your character's allegiance.

 

This actually upsets me that we don't get a conclusion. But it's the same with series, books and such... We just have to wait for the next chapter. And how annoying it is. :/ At least, it's not like Legacy of Kain, where we got 5 games and then the series were abandoned and we'll never ever get a conclusion. I believe a huge part of my soul died thanks to that event. :dry:

 

 

 

@Lithium Flower: I'm glad you like it! I haven't found anyone else to discuss it with yet. I watched two episodes (Ulfric Vladimir appears only on the second) so far, but I'm really enjoying it. The acting is very good. The villain is one of my favorite characters already (their landlord). So far it hasn't abused violence/sex like Game of Thrones or Spartacus, which I always find a cheap, childish attempt at being "omfg so mature". And the best of all, imo: everyone is disgustingly dirty. People in fur boots walking in muddy water. Hair that clearly haven't been washed in a whole season. I love medieval scenarios/costumes that don't assume people had easy access to hygiene. That's one of my issues with Skyrim - it's too clean! :biggrin:

[screendrop]

 

But from a practical, purely objective point of view, it is hypothetically true that bias aside, one side would have a greater chance of defeating the Thalmor, correct?

I really don't think so, screendrop. People on both sides on this thread have both brought up excellent points on why Skyrim could stand up alone or not. Highly simplifying the whole issue, I think we're stuck with either a lonely province or a dying empire. Neither are strong enough to withstand the Thalmor as it is. IF the Empire would get its act together and do something, but it doesn't. IF Skyrim could ally itself with other provinces. But neither of those things are offered ingame. So as far as the Civil War questline goes, in my opinion, no side is stronger than the other. It is purely a question of roleplaying your character's allegiance.

 

This actually upsets me that we don't get a conclusion. But it's the same with series, books and such... We just have to wait for the next chapter. And how annoying it is. :/ At least, it's not like Legacy of Kain, where we got 5 games and then the series were abandoned and we'll never ever get a conclusion. I believe a huge part of my soul died thanks to that event. :dry:

 

I must agree, I was mistaken, from a LIFE perspective, we could conclude that one side would HAVE to be victorious if it came down to it, its the way it works, BUT since Beth get to choose, we can't say that one side would win :)

 

@Lithium Flower: I'm glad you like it! I haven't found anyone else to discuss it with yet. I watched two episodes (Ulfric Vladimir appears only on the second) so far, but I'm really enjoying it. The acting is very good. The villain is one of my favorite characters already (their landlord). So far it hasn't abused violence/sex like Game of Thrones or Spartacus, which I always find a cheap, childish attempt at being "omfg so mature". And the best of all, imo: everyone is disgustingly dirty. People in fur boots walking in muddy water. Hair that clearly haven't been washed in a whole season. I love medieval scenarios/costumes that don't assume people had easy access to hygiene. That's one of my issues with Skyrim - it's too clean! :biggrin:

[RighthandofSithis]

 

But from a practical, purely objective point of view, it is hypothetically true that bias aside, one side would have a greater chance of defeating the Thalmor, correct?

I really don't think so, screendrop. People on both sides on this thread have both brought up excellent points on why Skyrim could stand up alone or not. Highly simplifying the whole issue, I think we're stuck with either a lonely province or a dying empire. Neither are strong enough to withstand the Thalmor as it is. IF the Empire would get its act together and do something, but it doesn't. IF Skyrim could ally itself with other provinces. But neither of those things are offered ingame. So as far as the Civil War questline goes, in my opinion, no side is stronger than the other. It is purely a question of roleplaying your character's allegiance.

 

While I respect the neutrality on the topic, and ultimately agree, it is virtually a roleplaying thing, i will point out that subtle hints of both are offered in game.

 

Luah al-Skaven suggests at potential Skyrim-Hammerfell ties, while Rikke and Brina Merilis may be suggesting the Empire is trying to work on its problems.

 

And when do these thread close down, when we reach 100 pages, or when we fill the 100th page? If the former, we could ceremonially conclude this thread with each of us regulars giving our conclusions.

Edited March 13, 2013 by RighthandofSithis

[LithiumPower]

It basically all comes down to whether you're going to put your faith in an institution or a people. I believe there's no Empire without its people. Talos is Shor is Lorkhan - the spirit behind all human endeavour and the empire has lost or sacrificed that. I don't put stock in religion, I'm a staunch atheist myself but Talos is not a divine. He is Man made God, he's the essence of Man's reign over Tamriel. We've argued from logic, we've argued from emotion, we can therefore argue from a narrative perspective about what that means. It's obvious that we're seeing the Empire in its death throes, some want to continue defibbing it, some believe it's time to let go.

 

At the end of the day, Bethesda hasn't given us any means to view the full picture or see into the future. In oblivion, we saw how the Empire was beginning to fracture along racial lines because of its disconnect with native populations. Apart from (my hero!!) Janus Hassildor, nearly every count reflected that disconnect in various shades from Narina Carvain's arrogance, to the horrible conditions in Leyawiin and Bravil. Ulfric at the very least has the excuse of war to fall back on - what is the Empire's excuse for the conditions of the Khajiit in Leyawiin, or the enslavement of the Argonians? Or for abandoning the Dunmer during Red Year and the invasion afterwards or allowing the discontent in Summerset Isles to brew into the Thalmor we see today? The present state of the Empire isn't a result of OhN0ezN0SeptimonDaThr0nez! and ZOMGthalm0arRgonnaEatzUS! - it's a fracture centuries in the making. The seeds of discontent we could see in Oblivion have fully blossomed in Skyrim.

 

We are witnessing the very end when irony of ironies, even the Nords have revolted.

 

I have been trying to put together a brief of the situation. A largeish document that contains the essence of the very best arguments on both sides, an even sided pamphlet for the would-be civil-war player to consult in order to make an informed decision. Perhaps us regulars can help give it a final form and it can serve as this thread's positive legacy to the discussion.

 

If there's interest, I'll put it up on google docs and share the link.