The US justice system.

[Beriallord]

Life isn't fair, the world isn't fair, and that is just how it is. Nobody is forced into any kind of behavior. You are just completely denying personal responsibility in an effort to blame someone else or the rest of society for someones shortcomings. Are you trying to tell me someone is forced into stealing a car, or robbing a store, etc? Then would would you have everyone do? Give these people something for nothing, when everyone else had to work hard for what they got? The ones who are dumb and lazy, like most criminals, the most I would give them if they behaved is food stamps and maybe some very humble living arrangements. Other than that they don't deserve anything more if they aren't willing to earn it.

 

wow.

just... wow.

 

you actually believe everyone, around the world, gets the same starting point in life, do you? if you actually believe this, im gonna cut you a break, and let you take your time to learn about reality.

 

i'm baffled.

 

No you misunderstand me, I agree that not everyone gets the same starting point in life, its not fair, but that is life, and people just need to accept that life isn't fair and do the best they can with what they got. For example, I know for a fact that no matter what I do, I'll never be a millionaire, but that doesn't mean I can't make due and be satisfied with being somewhere in the middle of the pack. You are just looking to make excuses, based on being naive about how the world is and works. If you think the world isn't fair, then change it. But nobody has ever succeeded in that endeavor of making the world a fair place for everybody, and nobody ever will succeed in that.

 

I started at the bottom of the totem pole and clawed my way up to the middle somewhere. My parents couldn't afford to pay for my college, and neither did I get good enough grades for a scholarship. I could have sat at the bottom and just dwelled on the negative, whined and moaned about everything and blamed everyone else, but I didn't. People need to grow up and accept life as it is and take responsibility. Do the best you can, which doesn't necessarily mean you can just do whatever you want. I'm assuming you are a younger kid, probably a teenager, so I will cut you a break for being naive because I was just like that at one time.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Beriallord

[zegh8578]

No you misunderstand me, I agree that not everyone gets the same starting point in life, its not fair, but that is life, and people just need to accept that life isn't fair and do the best they can with what they got. For example, I know for a fact that no matter what I do, I'll never be a millionaire, but that doesn't mean I can't make due and be satisfied with being somewhere in the middle of the pack. You are just looking to make excuses, based on being naive about how the world is and works. If you think the world isn't fair, then change it. But nobody has ever succeeded in that endeavor of making the world a fair place for everybody, and nobody ever will succeed in that.

 

I started at the bottom of the totem pole and clawed my way up to the middle somewhere. My parents couldn't afford to pay for my college, and neither did I get good enough grades for a scholarship. I could have sat at the bottom and just dwelled on the negative, whined and moaned about everything and blamed everyone else, but I didn't. People need to grow up and accept life as it is and take responsibility. Do the best you can, which doesn't necessarily mean you can just do whatever you want. I'm assuming you are a younger kid, probably a teenager, so I will cut you a break for being naive because I was just like that at one time.

 

you need to understand that you probably dont come from the absolute rock bottom.

 

i didnt get a good kick start either, and i have also managed to crawl up, avoiding crime,

but i know people who got brutal face-kicks in their past. it would be very unfair of me to impose my own "lessons" on them, just because it worked for me.

 

i get a very strong impression from you, of: i can do it, so can everyone else. which is an easy thought, but simply untrue. i can drag the example far, which you would probably finally dismiss as derailing or unrealistic propositions.

what about those born in debt? what about those with drug-addict parents? what about those with no parents? are you going to tell them the same token "lesson"?

"all you have to do is get a grip, and stop being lazy. i could do it, so can you!"

 

would you bring this attitude abroad? where would you draw a line? would you tell those half-skeletal hungervictims the same thing? "stop being lazy. get a job!"

 

(oh, and im 30. i didnt want to start defending myself personally, but ive learned that once you do not, people tend to just "roll" with their original assumption... )

Edited December 7, 2011 by zegh8578

[Beriallord]

 

you need to understand that you probably dont come from the absolute rock bottom.

 

My parents were lower income, not the lowest income, but still relatively under the average.

 

i didnt get a good kick start either, and i have also managed to crawl up, avoiding crime,

but i know people who got brutal face-kicks in their past. it would be very unfair of me to impose my own "lessons" on them, just because it worked for me.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA9272r7JNk

 

Its a famous speech given by Rocky Balboa. I think it holds true in the real world.

 

i get a very strong impression from you, of: i can do it, so can everyone else. which is an easy thought, but simply untrue. i can drag the example far, which you would probably finally dismiss as derailing or unrealistic propositions.

what about those born in debt? what about those with drug-addict parents? what about those with no parents? are you going to tell them the same token "lesson"?

"all you have to do is get a grip, and stop being lazy. i could do it, so can you!"

 

I never said anyone could do as good as I do. And stop putting up straw man arguments. You have taken more than a few things I have said out of context. And nobody is born in debt, unless you are talking about the government spending, in which case our grandchildren are going to be born into debt, every single one of them. Drug addicted parents? Sometimes children are born into abusive households, it is unfortunate, but there is nothing we can do about it other than have child protective services take them away and put them in foster care. You have to live and do the best you can with the hand dealt to you.

 

would you bring this attitude abroad? where would you draw a line? would you tell those half-skeletal hungervictims the same thing? "stop being lazy. get a job!"

 

Someone of my intelligence has a really hard time comprehending why anyone would lay there and starve to death and do nothing by means of trying to obtain food in some way, shape or form. It just goes against basic survival instinct. Go out and kill an animal or something, live off the land. The ones living a tribal simple lifestyle for example in Africa, aren't the ones starving. They go out and hunt. They got a saying, hand a hungry person a fish, and the next day they will come back and ask for another, teach them how to fish and they will never again go hungry.

 

(oh, and im 30. i didnt want to start defending myself personally, but ive learned that once you do not, people tend to just "roll" with their original assumption... )

 

If you still think you can change the way this world works, and make life fair for everybody, then more power to you.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Beriallord

[Aurielius]

<snip>

And I love how you sneer at, as "anecdotal", experience from someone who has spent time actually working among the sort of people who you like to label as more likely to commit crime, and has spent a lifetime living in a deprived area. Fine if you would rather believe a set of statistics, which everyone knows can be bent to prove whatever point you like. It is currently "politically correct" to say that the downtrodden poor are likely to turn to crime, in a bid to drive up the spending of public money on employment projects, housing schemes, etc.

 

The area where I live has lost all the core industries that once made it prosperous - mining, textiles, engineering. Despite that, all those ex miners have NOT turned cat burglar or bank robber. The crime rate is relatively low. What there is tends to be to do with...aherrrmmm....drugs or alcohol, and concentrated in Shottingham and the regular Mob vs Yardies vs Triads vs Hells Angels vs Notts Outlaws bouts.

More to the point, what you said is not only anecdotal, it is contrary to crime and poverty data. You can say that crime isn't highest in the poorest areas, you can say that the highest offender rates aren't amongst the poor all day and not convince anyone.

 

I suppose your hard knock ghetto experience is too much for this poor inner city Baltimore boy to compare to Shottingham bullet dodge fest. Get real. :confused:

A poor ex pat American living in the UK....I think you need a dose of reality if you expect that to fly. :down:

Stop calling me a liar.

I suppose you made it the UK on Food Stamps? Get real, I grew up there and am not the one claiming 'gansta creds' for the second time, The cost of living in UK is as expensive as living in NYC. You can't have it both ways, it's obvious that you have a good education that wasn't accrued on the street dodging bullets in the ghetto while buying Mac 10's from someones car boot in Baltimore while maintaining a residence in the UK. Liar is a term that only you have brought up, I have neither before or now laid that at your feet. However if you are asking whether I believe your credentials..roftl. At least I find Ginnyfizz's anecdotal evidence plausible and there by has more credence to her point. If you had not felt the need to sneer at her with your final throw away line, we wouldn't be having this dialog.....again.

[Ghogiel]

<snip>

And I love how you sneer at, as "anecdotal", experience from someone who has spent time actually working among the sort of people who you like to label as more likely to commit crime, and has spent a lifetime living in a deprived area. Fine if you would rather believe a set of statistics, which everyone knows can be bent to prove whatever point you like. It is currently "politically correct" to say that the downtrodden poor are likely to turn to crime, in a bid to drive up the spending of public money on employment projects, housing schemes, etc.

 

The area where I live has lost all the core industries that once made it prosperous - mining, textiles, engineering. Despite that, all those ex miners have NOT turned cat burglar or bank robber. The crime rate is relatively low. What there is tends to be to do with...aherrrmmm....drugs or alcohol, and concentrated in Shottingham and the regular Mob vs Yardies vs Triads vs Hells Angels vs Notts Outlaws bouts.

More to the point, what you said is not only anecdotal, it is contrary to crime and poverty data. You can say that crime isn't highest in the poorest areas, you can say that the highest offender rates aren't amongst the poor all day and not convince anyone.

 

I suppose your hard knock ghetto experience is too much for this poor inner city Baltimore boy to compare to Shottingham bullet dodge fest. Get real. :confused:

A poor ex pat American living in the UK....I think you need a dose of reality if you expect that to fly. :down:

Stop calling me a liar.

I suppose you made it the UK on Food Stamps? Get real, I grew up there and am not the one claiming 'gansta creds' for the second time, The cost of living in UK is as expensive as living in NYC. You can't have it both ways, it's obvious that you have a good education that wasn't accrued on the street dodging bullets in the ghetto while buying Mac 10's from someones car boot in Baltimore while maintaining a residence in the UK. Liar is a term that only you have brought up, I have neither before or now laid that at your feet. However if you are asking whether I believe your credentials..roftl. At least I find Ginnyfizz's anecdotal evidence plausible and there by has more credence to her point. If you had not felt the need to sneer at her with your final throw away line, we wouldn't be having this dialog.....again.

You have called me a liar in the past and just did. Stop it or I will report you for attacking me, and yes you attack me personally by saying I am not from inner city Baltimore, My mom ate mine and my brothers scraps because she could only afford to feed us. it is where I am from, I how I grew up. I went to public school. Prove otherwise or shut up.

 

Things change. I live in the UK now. Deal with it.

 

Oh and as far an ginny's shottingham.. I bet I could count the number of fatal shootings in shottingham on one hand in the past decade. That is why it sounds silly to me coming from a city where we have hundreds of fatal shootings every year.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Ghogiel

[Aurielius]

You have called me a liar in the past and just did. Stop it or I will report you for attacking me, and yes you attack me personally by saying I am not from inner city Baltimore, My mom ate mine and my brothers scraps because she could only afford to feed us. it is where I am from, I how I grew up. I went to public school. Prove otherwise or shut up.

 

Oh and as far an ginny's shottingham.. I bet I could count the number of fatal shootings in shottingham on one hand in the past decade. That is why it sounds silly to me coming from a city where we have hundreds of fatal shootings every year.

 

I have no problem believing that you grew up in Baltimore and attended PS whatever if you say so. When one asserts credentials, it is well within the bounds of a debate to question the 'bona fides' if it is used such to assert a point of life experience, especially if in a prior thread the same assertion didn't hold up. I believe you to be an intelligent well read individual who must be considered a credit to his alma mater, I just don't believe your street credentials neither then or now.

 

That you are amused at Ginnyfizz's consternation over the shootings in Nottingham is curious since you are a UK resident now. It should be noted that a proportional incongruity in comparison to US cities does not invalidate her point considering that the UK crime rate has always much lower than ours per capita. Subjective perspective which is what she was presenting and it was relevant to the debate unlike this digression.

[Ghogiel]

You have called me a liar in the past and just did. Stop it or I will report you for attacking me, and yes you attack me personally by saying I am not from inner city Baltimore, My mom ate mine and my brothers scraps because she could only afford to feed us. it is where I am from, I how I grew up. I went to public school. Prove otherwise or shut up.

 

Oh and as far an ginny's shottingham.. I bet I could count the number of fatal shootings in shottingham on one hand in the past decade. That is why it sounds silly to me coming from a city where we have hundreds of fatal shootings every year.

 

I have no problem believing that you grew up in Baltimore and attended PS whatever if you say so. When one asserts credentials, it is well within the bounds of a debate to question the 'bona fides' if it is used such to assert a point of life experience, especially if in a prior thread the same assertion didn't hold up. I believe you to be an intelligent well read individual who must be considered a credit to his alma mater, I just don't believe your street credentials neither then or now.

 

That you are amused at Ginnyfizz's consternation over the shootings in Nottingham is curious since you are a UK resident now. It should be noted that a proportional incongruity in comparison to US cities does not invalidate her point considering that the UK crime rate has always much lower than ours per capita. Subjective perspective which is what she was presenting and it was relevant to the debate unlike this digression.

 

Believe what ever you want, just don't call me a liar. Other thread: don't care if you believe it. You think getting unlicensed weapons something special. There were kids at my school that had guns. Nothing would convince you anyway.

 

 

As for the UK crime and the US... actually I am not sure if what you say is actually entirely true per capita, if ginny was saying you would get your teeth kicked in the UK in blink of an eye, or as readily or more so than the US, as I believe is the statistic: I think oddly more violent crime in the UK per captia than the US. It's just the murder rates are lower. The UK is full of hard knocks. Lots of knives too. Hardly any guns though. Shottingham.. more apt would bludgeoned to pulp by a gorup of yobs for a passing glance.

Edited December 7, 2011 by Ghogiel

[TheFourthHorse]

:ermm:

[Aurielius]

As for the UK crime and the US... actually I am not sure if what you say is actually entirely true per capita, if ginny was saying you would get your teeth kicked in the UK in blink of an eye, or as readily or more so than the US, as I believe is the statistic: I think oddly more violent crime in the UK per captia than the US. It's just the murder rates are lower. The UK is full of hard knocks. Lots of knives too. Hardly any guns though. Shottingham.. more apt would bludgeoned to pulp by a gorup of yobs for a passing glance.

Well..anecdotally..lol....I have a friend who sits on one the Crown Courts and his view is that the violent non lethal assaults have been steadily rising more so in the countryside than in the urban areas which would seem to belie the concept of urban poverty and crime going hand in hand. For fairness sake it should be admitted that he is more draconian when sitting than Judge Roy Bean ever was (which is odd considering our youthful mutual misadventures). I guess in the long run perspective is still very subjective.

[Marxist ßastard]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA9272r7JNk

 

Its a famous speech given by Rocky Balboa. I think it holds true in the real world.

If the video doesn't work for you, I found one that should.

 

And sure, the speech is all inspiring and junk when you apply it to yourself. But the second you start telling other people to "just get past it" – especially if it is poverty, and you have no experience of it – the speech becomes a sophism that lets you pretend to empower others while actually just shrugging off any bit of compassion you would otherwise be expected to HNNNNGGG HNNNNGGG HNNNNGGG HHNNNNNNNNNNNNGGGGGGGG!!