Is Fallout 4 Modding Scene Dead ?

[Aeradom]

Robin said it best on one of the many many other "OMG IS MODDING DEAD!" threads:

 

I don't really know why I'm bothering to respond to someone whose only contribution is to copy and paste another's thought out deconstruction of the issue. The irony is that you do exactly what Robin was complaining about, except the other way around. You come into this topic and largely ignore my earlier comments because you want to support your own agenda. But I'll give you one chance:

 

Context is very important when you are discussing games that are years apart. That's because looking at the raw data often becomes misleading as it doesn't factor in what's going on around it. For instance, if we just looked at the sales figures for the first 48 hours to draw a conclusion of which game was more popular, then Fallout 4 wins by a mile as it sold nearly twice as many units in that span of time. Of course, we know that isn't the case but were to argue differently right after release, you wouldn't have much to back up that claim.

 

Skyrim changed the game (no pun intended) and to compare it to other elder scrolls games is ludicrous. Consider that there has been close to a billion downloads from the Skyrim Nexus. That is twice the number for Oblivion, Fallout 3, and Fallout New Vegas combined. In addition, Skyrim has twice the number of mods than any other Bethesda game bar none. One cannot ignore that explosion of interest in modding that has occurred since Skyrim's release. And even if you are to argue that the Elder Scrolls series is more popular than Fallout (which I agree), that still doesn't discount the units sold that were greater than any other game in either the Elder Scrolls or the Fallout franchises. When you combine those two factors, I feel like we should be seeing a lot more liveliness.

 

I don't know if it's dead, but it really didn't get much of a chance to start, actually....

(@Rabbit Can you explain why modding is more difficult now when the same fundamental CK is being used?)

 

It's not really the number of mods that concern me honestly; I realize that it will take time before we see larger/higher quality mods as people become familiar with the CK. What really bothers me and the real problem is what the community, or just modding in general, is right now. Rabbit touched on it in his post is how much of an uphill battle it's been with modding. I made mention in my first post but when I hear the Unofficial Patch team talking about how much more difficult it is now in comparison with other games it bothers me. But what bothers me more is when I see mod after mod where the mod author has said they are moving on because they either lost interest or just don't want to deal with the stupid drama. Sad thing is, I don't blame them. It's ironic; you'd think with Bethesda planning console mods they would have made it easier to make mods instead of more difficult.

 

Finally, don't assume what "agenda" I might have when I'm currently working with someone on a guide that will hopefully make it easier for players to jump right into a modded Fallout 4 game. I have no wish for Fallout 4 or modding in Fallout 4 to go away. I want to believe that everything will be alright, but I don't. Can you tell me honestly that the Fallout 4 modding community is as strong or vibrant as it was in that first couple of weeks after the game's initial release? Since you like to talk about previous titles, how about tell me when people started hiding their mods purposefully in other games, or left due to a single controversy so soon after a games launch? If you can tell me how those things were issues in past bethsda games, then nothing would please me more than to be wrong.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Aeradom

[jdkzombie]

Oblivion on xbox was my first foray into Elder scrolls. Then Fallout 3 was my first Fallout experience. Played both on xbox, amd skyrim on xbox, and Fallout NV and 4.

 

Then I switched to PC and got both Skyrim and Fallout 4. And immediately modded the s#*! out of them. And broke them repeatedly learning what worked and what didnt. I cant tell you how many countless hours were spent trying to figure out why the game worked just a moment ago. Sifting through Papyrus logs for a hint at what happened.

 

What I've learned, which is what we to do for new players for Elder Scroll and Fallout games that want to mod, is to keep it simple.

 

These new mods now, require a lot more than simply dropping into your data folder. NMM helps immensely, but its not intuitive for telling you if there is a problem unless you click on plugins and look for conflicts or missing esp or esm files.

 

So many mods require this and that, and these, and can easily wreck your game if you dont follow instructions to the letter.

 

 

 

Modding slows down at this rate because all the simple stuff is done already. We have fixed most bugs in most mods. Fixed minor grievances.

 

Remember how long it took for Falskar to be released for Skyrim?

 

I think Skyrim has it easier because you simply have a bigger plate to fill in that world. Fallout 4 is simply finding your son. Period. In Skyrim you can be anything. A merchant. A soldier. A thief. A hero. A infamous warlord. The high king of Skyrim. You dont even have to touch the Greybeards at all if you dont want to.

 

Fallout 4 is the largest Bethesda title yet iirc, but yet it still feels so small. Downtown Boston is still only a few minutes to traverse. Each little town out in the rural areas are only a few houses and such. In Skyrim, small villages made sense because thats how you would expect villages in a world like that to work.

[EveningTide]

It's slow.

[Aeradom]

Modding slows down at this rate because all the simple stuff is done already. We have fixed most bugs in most mods. Fixed minor grievances.

 

Remember how long it took for Falskar to be released for Skyrim?

 

I think Skyrim has it easier because you simply have a bigger plate to fill in that world. Fallout 4 is simply finding your son. Period. In Skyrim you can be anything. A merchant. A soldier. A thief. A hero. A infamous warlord. The high king of Skyrim. You dont even have to touch the Greybeards at all if you dont want to.

 

Fallout 4 is the largest Bethesda title yet iirc, but yet it still feels so small. Downtown Boston is still only a few minutes to traverse. Each little town out in the rural areas are only a few houses and such. In Skyrim, small villages made sense because thats how you would expect villages in a world like that to work.

I understand that in previous games things do tend to slow down and truthfully I hope that things will pick up just like they have in previous Bethesda titles. But with all due respect, this hasn't been your typical Bethesda open world game cycle. That's because where I see the problem in those cycles as being one of a technical one that you allude to, this one has been more about anger, frustration and just in general the drama. The people who have left due to mods being stolen and put up on Beth.net, or had to deal with all the arguing over whether or not they have a right to control their own work with entitled console players, I don't foresee a lot of them returning, do you?

 

In fact, I think we need to stop thinking about this as a Fallout problem and start considering what this means for the next Elder Scrolls game. Sure, a lot of people think that the issues are only tied to Fallout and that everything will be fine when the next Elder Scrolls game releases. But those same people that didn't want to deal with console modding, or Bethesda not working with the modding community effectively, aren't going to want to deal with that then just because a different game comes out. Sure they'll want to play it more the way I hear modders talk, it's just too emotional taxing to deal with all the bulls***. And God forbid Bethesda introduces paid modding again for the next Elder Scrolls game because we saw how much that fractured was seemed up to that point a fairly genial community.

 

Allow me to be more succinct; Do you really believe that the only reason the modding scene right now isn't very active is just due to modders acclimating themselves with the Creation Kit? Or could it be possible that two years of drama has driven many people away?

Edited September 22, 2016 by Aeradom

[EveningTide]

From my perspective, three things hurt Fallout 4 modding a bit bad:

 

1. Long waiting period for the CK.

2. Trying to control modding via Beth.net(and simply moving forums seems to have angered a lot of folks)

3. Mod theft, which is always always a huge blow to modding morale.

 

In my opinion it's not dead, it's just real slow but will never reach the rate of Skyrim that's for sure, and I also think because of Skyrim's very successful modding status, it has created unfair high standards for Fallout 4 modding.

Edited September 22, 2016 by EveningTide

[Aeradom]

From my perspective, three things hurt Fallout 4 modding a bit bad:

 

1. Long waiting period for the CK.

2. Trying to control modding via Beth.net(and simply moving forums seems to have angered a lot of folks)

3. Mod theft, which is always always a huge blow to modding morale.

 

In my opinion it's not dead, it's just real slow but will never reach the rate of Skyrim that's for sure, and I also think because of Skyrim's very successful modding status, it has created unfair high standards for Fallout 4 modding.

If I were to rewrite the title, I think I'd change it to "Is there any coming back?" What I mean is that for those last two issues you references, I just don't see those people who left because of them returning. And I'm not just talking about for Fallout, I'm thinking about Elder Scrolls VI as well. It's not like those people are just going to forget all that stuff and the emotions they had to deal with, especially if Bethesda continues on the tracks they've set. Though I've never modded, I do know how controversy and arguing can leave a bad taste in your mouth. To this day, I won't go back and play through Mass Effect 3 as I still haven't gotten over both ending and all the arguments that followed it. And that's for a franchise that is my favorite of all time as well. In fact, I highly doubt I'll even bother to play Mass Effect: Andromeda. My point is that when a franchise has burned you and left you an impression of being angry, frustrated and just depressed, you aren't likely to want to jump back in.

[Rabbit1251]

 

Robin said it best on one of the many many other "OMG IS MODDING DEAD!" threads:

 

I don't really know why I'm bothering to respond to someone whose only contribution is to copy and paste another's thought out deconstruction of the issue. The irony is that you do exactly what Robin was complaining about, except the other way around. You come into this topic and largely ignore my earlier comments because you want to support your own agenda. But I'll give you one chance:

 

 

 

I don't know if it's dead, but it really didn't get much of a chance to start, actually....

(@Rabbit Can you explain why modding is more difficult now when the same fundamental CK is being used?)

 

 

Are you asking for "gut" observations or are you pushing modding McCarthyism? If you are looking for a fight then that is not in my nature...at this time. Otherwise you may cheerfully kiss my scut, mon frere.

 

 

The Rabbit

[Aeradom]

Are you asking for "gut" observations or are you pushing modding McCarthyism? If you are looking for a fight then that is not in my nature...at this time. Otherwise you may cheerfully kiss my scut, mon frere.

 

The Rabbit

 

Even knowing what McCarthyism is I don't get the reference. I genuinely don't understand what makes Fallout 4 so much more difficult to mod than Skyrim. It would be one thing if it were a completely new engine with new tools. But from my understanding (mostly heading modders complaining mind you), the CK is fundamentally unchanged since I believe Oblivion? In fact, if I'm correct, isn't parts of it going all the way back to Morrowind? So when I hear people talking about how now they can't do this or that, in the case of the UFOP team, I'm not sure what's changed. As I've stated, I just recently started toying around with the CK and FO4edit so I wouldn't know. Seeing as you said you modded in past games and this one, I asked because I figured you would be able to tell me.

 

No offense was implied.

Edited September 22, 2016 by Aeradom

[TheUndying84]

 

In fact, I think we need to stop thinking about this as a Fallout problem and start considering what this means for the next Elder Scrolls game. Sure, a lot of people think that the issues are only tied to Fallout and that everything will be fine when the next Elder Scrolls game releases. But those same people that didn't want to deal with console modding, or Bethesda not working with the modding community effectively, aren't going to want to deal with that then just because a different game comes out. Sure they'll want to play it more the way I hear modders talk, it's just too emotional taxing to deal with all the bulls***. And God forbid Bethesda introduces paid modding again for the next Elder Scrolls game because we saw how much that fractured was seemed up to that point a fairly genial community.

 

 

It's possible, but I think the apparent failure of both of those initiatives that pissed people off (paid mods and console mods) might save it. Paid mods died a quick and well deserved death, and console modding has been cancelled for the most popular console. Xbone still has them, but between that console's lack of popularity, the lack of quality for Fallout 4 mods, and the particular lack of quality for mods that can actually be put on console no matter what, I'm not sure if they'll bother with it next time.

 

It doesn't seem like they have much to gain from these efforts. I don't see how they're really monetizing the console's concept, paid modding was not successful on PC (nor can it be due to piracy), and I doubt it would be successful on consoles; I don't think many people are gonna pay for something they really never had in the first place. Console mods have been pretty mediocre, people will wonder why they should pay for that until they're shown that it's worth paying for, which they haven't been. I think trying it was a profitable move, because people would have bought it on the presumption of mods being worth it. Now that they know they won't be worth it (unless you get it on PC), I doubt it will really drive many sales again.

 

Basically, their attempts to change/"expand" modding have failed for the most part, so they might just say "Screw it let's not bother and just go back to the ol' release a creation kit and forget it way we had going before."

[Aeradom]

 

Basically, their attempts to change/"expand" modding have failed for the most part, so they might just say "Screw it let's not bother and just go back to the ol' release a creation kit and forget it way we had going before."

 

While I think that paid modding can work if properly implemented, I'll be the first to admit that paid modding, along with console modding, has done far more harm than good. But as to if they will drop them, I don't think Bethesda will. Not that it isn't possible just...It all boils down to how well the special edition of Skyrim does. For as much as they want to talk about updated graphics, the key selling point is ultimately the console modding. If the Xbox One version doesn't meet sales projections, then I'm sure they will drop the whole matter. But if it does well, especially in comparison to the PS4 version which doesn't have it, then console modding is here to stay.