The Rights of Native Americans and First Nations

[Malchik]

I agree with you to an extent - people are moulded by the society in which they are raised - but I do not believe they can be made into stereotypes. I suspect that there are very few people in the world that are 100% stereotypical. However if you only look at the things that fit your idea of the stereotype and ignore anything that doesn't fit - a not uncommon approach - you will only see stereotypes.

 

Sometimes societies can make it difficult for people to express their individuality. That doesn't mean they do not have that individuality. Furthermore it is not only the 'oppressing' society that creates these difficulties. There is the belief (certainly held by George Bush) that 'if you are not with us, you are against us'. This immediately stifles almost every freedom the US is supposed to stand for but it is endemic in most societies, even those who are 'oppressed'.

 

So if people do not display individuality do not automatically assume it isn't there and do not believe the 'fault' necessarily has to lie with the 'ruling' authority.

[Jhaerlyn]

Thanks for the Kudos Rob :D

 

And I doubt I "know" more than you .... I just read a book or two ...and I sometimes get fired up by this stuff ... and I like to talk alot.

 

But I don't always say things as I mean to say them ... :)

Malchik, I'm sorry for the misunderstanding ... I didn't mean to say that individuals were all becoming stereo-types ... that's impossible .... rather, that individuals were molding themselves more and more into the stereo-types ... so that the culture is becoming more and more stereo-typical ... its a thing that's been happening in a lot of ways with different groups ... For Example, the other day I saw this special report on Gangsters and how Gangster movies had been shaping mobster culture ... it was pretty neat ..but basically the idea was that young mobsters were growing up seeing these movie mobsters and thinking that was how they were "supposed" to act ... and so they did.

 

 

it goes along with something that gets knocked around in education and psychology: the self-fulfilling prophesy. If you call someone over whom you have some authority or matter in someway ... and call them stupid .. on a regular basis ... they will grow to believe it, and, no matter what their IQ may have been.. they will literally function as a stupid person.

 

 

What it seems to be is that our social natures betray us in this area ...in that, human beings with normal emotional, mental and social skills and feelings do care what other people think of them.

 

Ok ..gotta go, See ya'll tomorrow at lunch ;)

 

 

.... and sorry for not reading all of your very short post Malchik ... i was supposed to leave already ... and wanted to rush in and clarify a little ...and then got carried away ... I talk way too much :(

[Chesto]

So much to quote from. So little time.

 

'History is bunk': Henry Ford. Actually what Henry said was 'the study of history is bunk'. In relation to this thread I both agree and disagree with him.

 

Rehashing the wrongs done to one's religion/culture/race/ethnic group is a good way to stoke up one's victimhood. Especially if the wrong took place just an hour ago because of the negative way that someone reacted , through ignorance or bigotry, to you as an individual member of your race. Perhaps, even a greater sense of one's identity can be brought about by the 'study' of the awful things done to one's people throughout history. Though I suspect it will be bolstering one's identity in a negative sense, not a positive one.

 

It has been written, in this thread, that one should look after one's own individuality, one's own individual rights. That Reservations are anachronistic, don't work, are unfair- at best- hold people back as individuals , should be abolished etc.,etc..

 

Well... speaking as one who has been an 'individual' for most of the last 50 years - my own family having become terminally disfunctional around my tenth year.... Having made my way, admittedly within the greater white Anglo-Saxon UK culture of which I am part, mostly on my own and under my own steam and having acheived relative material success and 'contentment' I can let you in on a big secret. Individualism aint all it's cracked up to be.

 

My 'study' of history shows that groups which stay together to maintain their traditions survive in the face of all the crap that the 'majority' around them throws at them. It seems to me that you Natives of the Americas have a golden opportunity. Something which is denied to the 'individuals' in the rest of the western world. It's all there for you: your culture, your traditions, your spiritual beliefs and, yes, your race and ...the Reservations.

 

Study history, by all means and by who ever wrote it. Study your own oral traditions. Talk to any of your elders who are still around. Build up your identity; who you, as an 'individual' is within your culture so that in turn your culture will grow stronger . Get rid of the corrupt politicians who blight every society. ***k the Federal/state/provincial governments. Take from them what you need and what will help build you up. 'Hand outs' - so what. Take them and use them productively. The posters to this thread, alone, show that there is certainly no lack of intelligence to bring to bear on this.

 

Do this. Or become a westernized 'individual' who has all the toys that 'civilisation' will sell you. And learn to live in an alienated void, where your immediate family, if you are fortunate, as I now am, to have one, is the only defense against the huge things which are happening, and will happen, all around you.

 

This is fairly garbled. Apologies. Get too emtional about this particular subject. See... have wanted to be an 'Red Indian' since I was ten. Have wanted to have the ideal group identity which I believe is, at least partially, yours to have. Basically because it , at least, seems to BE an identity.

[Jhaerlyn]

wow, chesto, that was good :D

 

I wish I had time to respond.. but we just were told that the server is being taken down for a while :(

 

 

and i agree with you that there is a definite need for looking at ones group and its strengths to solidify their identity and grow from there.

 

up until now I've mostly just been dumping my thoughts on what has been the ... challenges that native american and african americans face in this country.

 

If you could point out some of those groups specifically that you are referring to, so I can ..have something to grapple with or hold on to ..itd be great :)

 

 

ok, well , gotta go .have fun today :D

[Chesto]

Jhaerlyn- I was speaking, mainly, about the Native Americans ( generic). I don't really understand which other 'groups' you may think I'm referring to.

I suppose the generalist tactics I espouse could be applied to any minority group that had a similar long history of traditions behind it, though I can not think of any that fit the bill other than certain reclusive religious sects. Only those more knowledgeable than I ( queue here! ) about First Peoples could say with any degree of certainty whether they, themselves, consider they are part of a larger homogeneous grouping, and not just a mixture of tribal groups who have been thrown together by their common treatment. Similar, in fact, to the way that blacks in America came together from their own tribal and ethnic backgrounds to create black consciousness and all that has come from that.

[ResidentWeevil2077]

Jhaerlyn- I was speaking, mainly, about the Native Americans ( generic). I don't really understand which other 'groups' you may think I'm referring to.

I suppose the generalist tactics I espouse could be applied to any minority group that had a similar long history of traditions behind it, though I can not think of any that fit the bill other than certain reclusive religious sects. Only those more knowledgeable than I ( queue here! ) about First Peoples could say with any degree of certainty whether they, themselves, consider they are part of a larger homogeneous grouping, and not just a mixture of tribal groups who have been thrown together by their common treatment. Similar, in fact, to the way that blacks in America came together from their own tribal and ethnic backgrounds to create black consciousness and all that has come from that.

On the contrary, it doesn't take someone to be more knowledgeable than you, it only requires simple understanding of both sides of the debate. While we do consider ALL Native peoples/tribes to be of the same race, we do in fact keep the tribal affairs of each different band or treaty separate from one another.

[ninja_lord666]

@ Chesto: What you're saying will further divide the people and further fuel the flames of racism. By having all the 'minorities' break away and form their own independent sects, there won't be any friendly co-mingling. The only way to eliminate racism is to unite the people, not divine them.

[ResidentWeevil2077]

@ Chesto: What you're saying will further divide the people and further fuel the flames of racism. By having all the 'minorities' break away and form their own independent sects, there won't be any friendly co-mingling. The only way to eliminate racism is to unite the people, not divine them.

Umm, I still think you're not seeing that this has nothing to do with racism, Ninja. It's about the rights of Native people and what can be done to solve the misunderstandings between Natives and non-Natives. I don't expect an answer from you.

[hoots7]

I agree with you to an extent - people are moulded by the society in which they are raised - but I do not believe they can be made into stereotypes. I suspect that there are very few people in the world that are 100% stereotypical. However if you only look at the things that fit your idea of the stereotype and ignore anything that doesn't fit - a not uncommon approach - you will only see stereotypes.

Sometimes societies can make it difficult for people to express their individuality. That doesn't mean they do not have that individuality.

I agree with you so far..

 

Furthermore it is not only the 'oppressing' society that creates these difficulties.

I thought you were going to tell us who Or what the other factor was besides the "'oppressing' society" but you just blame George Bush.

There is the belief (certainly held by George Bush) that 'if you are not with us, you are against us'.

I have to say in Bush's defense he was talking about countrys that harbor terrorist not the freedom of people or individualism.

This immediately stifles almost every freedom the US is supposed to stand for but it is endemic in most societies, even those who are 'oppressed'.

 

So if people do not display individuality do not automatically assume it isn't there and do not believe the 'fault' necessarily has to lie with the 'ruling' authority.

I agree with this part also but you never state what the other thing is you mention earlier.

If you think George Bush is the other factor, you give him to much credit, one man can't be blamed for all that.

[Malchik]

I do not blame George Bush for everything I was simply using him as an example the US might relate to. But there can be NO excuse for his inadequately thought-through comment. No doubt had he had a chance to think about it he would have rephrased it less emotively but, as I say, it is a commonly held belief. 'If you do not agree with me you must be my enemy.' Or to put it another way 'I cannot possibly be wrong'. Either interpretation deserves being laughed out of court.

 

And I thought I did make it clear that it is equally the 'oppressed' societies themselves that prevent people being individual for the very reason I used the GB quote. If you do not express the perceived accepted view of the 'oppressed' society you are an outcast there too. Because if you are not with them, you are against them.