Where's the CK?

[thompsonar]

@ginnyfizz believe your reasoning for thinking the ck is ready and waiting to be released is a little flawed. I understand that they said we would have the same tools the developers used. But that doesn't mean it's the same program. I really don't think the CK they will be releasing is the exact thing they used to make the game. Nor do I believe that because they said January it's reasonable to start questioning it's release halfway through January. After January there is more than enough reason to be pissed.

 

I don't want to get into a big thing about it, I just think you can be a little more reasonable. Bad mouthing Bethesda no matter what and sticking up for Bethesda no matter what are the same thing. The scale tips both ways. I'm just trying to be reasonable. Wait for the appropriate time to get pissed.. that's all I'm saying.

[R3Q]

@ginnyfizz believe your reasoning for thinking the ck is ready and waiting to be released is a little flawed. I understand that they said we would have the same tools the developers used. But that doesn't mean it's the same program. I really don't think the CK they will be releasing is the exact thing they used to make the game. Nor do I believe that because they said January it's reasonable to start questioning it's release halfway through January. After January there is more than enough reason to be pissed.

 

I don't want to get into a big thing about it, I just think you can be a little more reasonable. Bad mouthing Bethesda no matter what and sticking up for Bethesda no matter what are the same thing. The scale tips both ways. I'm just trying to be reasonable. Wait for the appropriate time to get pissed.. that's all I'm saying.

And that appropriate time would be February 1st.

[Lunytic]

bethesda does not want to be ashamed by a 16 year old modder doing better at bug fixing with the ck than 20 of their own programers

 

LOL, this just made me laugh. After spending 5 years with part of my job basically serving as a BSA, trainer, and top-tier support line asset I am willing to bet that Bethesda's programmers KNOW they let bugs slip through.

 

At my job we had a team of ~7 programmers and maybe 3 part-time testers for applications used by the 1,000s of users. At first it was frustrating to see the bug reports come in the from the field, but the bottom line is 1,000s of users will find some of the craziest ways to do something that never occurred to a developer or tester, in part because they 'know' the 'right' way to do it, even as they try to find new bugs.

 

I did think like this at onetime, but after being on the other end for 5 years, bugs happen, you just try to minimize them.

 

 

We are all very well aware of what exactly Bethesda said. We are well aware that no precise date was given, except January, so since it is already halfway through January, it's a reasonable time to start asking. Stop with the accusations of crying and whining, criticising your fellow members and being an uncritical fanperson, we know that they can do no wrong in your eyes. For the reasons I said before, we KNOW the CK already exists, and that it is being delayed for that darned Steam Workshop that hardly anyone wants. We ARE receiving poor customer service as numerous people have a bugged game, but Bethesda do not seem to give a brass razoo about either fixing the bugs, or giving us the tools to do it ourselves.

 

A) January means January. Until it's February, it's not late. Obviously sooner is better than later for us, the consumers, and I won't begrudge anyone who is anxious and asks 'is it here yet, is it here yet', but it's not February yet. That's the point.

 

B) I think it's been posted ad nauseam at this point that Bethesda doesn't use the CK. They use something proprietary that has access to copyrighted material and the ability to modify certain parts of code that are treated as hard-coded by the CK.

 

Again, having served on both sides of this:

 

C) If you promise a hard-fast release date, you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Because you now have a hard deadline which may not be enough time to put out the quality product you want as you are fixing the issues being reported or you miss the deadline and have irrate customers.

 

D) Bugs are not fixed in a vacuum. One of the worse things that can be done is rush out a bug fix that creates bugs in other, previously working areas of the game. While releasing patches on a flow basis is something preferred by us, the users, it creates havoc on the development end as mid-stream a segment of code you've been updating suddenly is re-written, probably without anyone telling you so your fix breaks the previous bug fix and your fix doesn't work because of other changes made previously.

 

Ultimately, we want, we want, we want, but that doesn't speed up the process. And as frustrating as the number of bugs being reported can be (though any one of us are only genuinely affected in a meaningful way by one or two, in my case the Bard's College bugs, damn I just want to throw these freaking instruments out a window!) it truly is better that they wait until they have a stable package to release, weather or not that includes steam workshop compatibility.

 

[Matth85]

Stop with the accusations of crying and whining, criticising your fellow members and being an uncritical fanperson, we know that they can do no wrong in your eyes.

Accusing? Seen the 2 topics on at least 20 pages each titled "WHERE IS THE CK?", and the post saying it's been delayed and what-not?

Perhaps it's time to look more lightly on the world? I have yet to see you do anything but bash on everyting.

 

For the reasons I said before, we KNOW the CK already exists, and that it is being delayed for that darned Steam Workshop that hardly anyone wants

Again, so what? They choose to do it, and it's they who gives us a toolkit. Be happy you get one, instead of blaming both Steam and Bethesda for everything wrong in the world.

 

We ARE receiving poor customer service as numerous people have a bugged game, but Bethesda do not seem to give a brass razoo about either fixing the bugs, or giving us the tools to do it ourselves.

Welcome to the world? It's how it works.

Take note of what Sanbru says - it's a mutually beneficial thing for Beth to give the modders the CK.

I never stated it wasn't beneficial to Bethesda. However, they still give us a toolkit, an easy way to mod their game. Instead of thanking them for it, you end up smacking your foot and screaming that they got a broken game. They could cancel the CK right now, and have all right to do so.

 

My point is very simple, and very short. Read carefully: You are not entitled a toolkit. Stop acting like you do.

 

It's that simple. The modding benefit us as much as Bethesda, however: Seing people whine up and down about "delays" and that the CK isn't out yet.. I mean, what? It was never delayed, and you are not entitled to to demand for it either. If we get it, then awesome! If we don't, then okay.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Matth85

[David Brasher]

We ARE entitled to a toolkit. A large percentage of the people who bought Skyrim did so with the assumption that they would have a creation kit so that they could build mods that they wanted or that they could play the mods that other people had built. If it were to turn out that Bethesda canceled the creation kit and never released it, then many people would vote with their feet and not buy Skyrim if they hadn't bought it yet and certainly not buy TES 6. That would be just and fair, and I see no problem with it.

 

Certain people who make comments just like to contradict everyone, and don't really have a grasp of what the public is thinking and feeling, and how human nature works.

Edited January 16, 2012 by David Brasher

[sajuukkhar9000]

We ARE entitled to a toolkit. A large percentage of the people who bought Skyrim did so with the assumption that they would have a creation kit so that they could build mods that they wanted or that they could play the mods that other people had built. If it were to turn out that Bethesda canceled the creation kit and never released it, then many people would vote with their feet and not buy Skyrim if they hadn't bought it yet and certainly not buy TES 6. That would be just and fair, and I see no problem with it.

 

Certain people who make comments just like to contradict everyone, and don't really have a grasp of what the public is thinking and feeling, and how human nature works.

 

No toolkit was explicitly promised at the time of purchase.

 

Just because you expected it does not mean you deserve it, are entitled to it, or that Bethesda lied for not delivering it.

Edited January 16, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[ginnyfizz]

If you are prepared to accept shoddy customer service, then you are very unwise and are going to get seriously ripped off some time. By all means be an uncritical fanperson if you wish, but I certainly ain't going to be. We have a seriously flawed beta release on our hands, Bethesda showing no signs of having any desire to fix it and being more concerned about this stupid Steam Workshop integration. Nor will they give us the tools to fix it.

 

And try actually reading what I said. I said that it being half way through January now, it is not unreasonable to start asking, how's it going? I ALWAYS do that when someone has told me that something is going to be released in X month. I do it for stuff both in my personal and business dealings. It's called progress chasing. I don't seriously expect it by the very first day of the stated month, but I do start to ask questions half way through that month. Geez, no production or despatch department would ever get anything done if they didn't have either the customer in person or a customer service person on their ass.

 

Welcome to the world, indeed. Don't be so patronising. I have been around long enough to know what is good customer service and what isn't. Companies who deal with me regularly, know better than to take the you know what. Guess what? This from Beth is rubbish service. And I will think long and hard before I consider ever buying one of their games on release again. I know I'm not on my own in this.

 

There would be less complaining and frustration if the darned game was not so flawed. If Bethesda's QC was up to scratch and the game did not have so many whopping bloopers, people would be a lot more relaxed. If it was just a case of people wanting to make big grandstand mods, it would be one thing. But we have a case of people wanting to fix the aforementioned whopping bugs, to get the game working properly, which is quite another. The devs have form for not ever doing this properly and relying on the modders to fix it. So why not let them?

[R3Q]

No toolkit was explicitly promised at the time of purchase.

 

Just because you expected it does not mean you deserve it, are entitled to it, or that Bethesda lied for not delivering it.

 

Expect it*

 

You said expected, as in it was supposed to come some time in the past. It's not Feb. 1st yet.

[Kalimni]

The way the word ENTITLED is getting thrown around on this thread is irritating me.

 

en·ti·tle

   [en-tahyt-l] http://sp.dictionary.com/dictstatic/g/d/dictionary_questionbutton_default.gif Show IPA

verb (used with object), -tled, -tling.1.to give (a person or thing) a title, right, or claim tosomething; furnish with grounds for laying claim: Hisexecutive position entitled him to certain courtesies rarelyaccorded others.2.to call by a particular title or

name: What was the bookentitled?3.to designate (a person) by an honorary title.

WE have absolutely no RIGHT to get the CK. There is nowhere, that I could find, on the box or the TOS that says that we will 100% no matter what get the CK. The CK/CS/GECK or what every other tools we get with a Bethesda game is basically just a bonus from them for buying their product. They DO NOT have to give it to us. They are under no obligation to do so. That said, it does benefit them, because there is a very large portion of the people that buy their games because of the fact they release the development tools and allow people to modify their games. If they were to decide to not release the CK I would wager that would be a whole lot of people that would not buy a Bethesda game again. I understand the irritation behind not having the CK yet, but to claim that you have an entitlement, or right to it is simply not true.

Edited January 16, 2012 by Kalimni

[evacyn]

Obviously, we either get it or we don't.

 

If the CK comes out in the next few weeks, as per countless other games, all of the people screaming and waving pitchforks will start yelling 'Yay, Bethesda. We knew we'd get the CK - you are the best company and so thoughtful of your customers'. If you need proof, look at any game forum... even this one was ready to burn Bethesda in effigy after the game was released because of the lack of 4GB support and the countless game crippling bugs (hello, PS3). But quickly after the patch was released, the boards we're filled with happy and singing Bethesda fans, who were the same people ready to throw their copy of Skyrim under the bus only a day earlier.

 

If the CK doesn't come out before February 1st (or at all), then I imagine Bethesda has no idea the backlash that will happen. I can't even imagine the consequences of failing to provide something they told their customers was (initially) going to be included, and a tool that has historically extended the life of your games through this community (and others).

 

At this point, I don't care. I've seen the posts each day that ask "Where is the CK?" on this and other forums, and I can understand the frustration from the lack of communication. I'm already disappointed with the quality of the game they released and the time it's taken to turn around fundamental bug fixes. Maybe next time they'll take a cue from a company (or companies) that do things right (i.e.,. CD Projekt Red).