Stormcloaks or Imperials?

[aeonthraen]

I have come across Thallmor agents arresting a local farmer for Talos worship but I have on occasion come across a group of Imperial soldiers doing the same thing. The Empire is FAR from being squeaky clean in this; They're enforcing anti-Talos worship as well.

 

I've only ever seen Imperials with Stormcloak prisoners. Talos worshipers do not equal Stormcloaks...

 

Still, after 200 hours i still havent seen this guy trying to revive a wolf, so i suppose it could be the luck of the draw...

 

the lone farmer trying to reanimate a dead wolf with a that staff? yah I have its funny; i ended up taking it from him and selling it xD

[VincentIcarus]

I usually side with the Stormcloaks mostly because they remind me of America about 200 years ago. They're trying to break off from an oppressive and corrupt empire and I'm not referring to the Empire, here. I'm referring to the Aldmeri Dominion. From my perspective, it seems like The Aldmeri Dominion used underhanded tactics by attacking the Empire after it had been weakened by the Oblivion Crisis. A good tactical move but shady nonetheless. It also seems like they pretty much run the Empire. Yeah, the Emperor is still technically in charge but I'm willing to bet that if a few Thalmor agents walked into his bed chamber and told him to get up because they wanted to sleep there, he would. Also, I agree with the Stormcloaks on the issue of religion (Talos worship). I am by no means a spiritual or religious guy. I believe in God but that's pretty much the extent of my religiousness. Anyway, getting back to my point, I think that people should have the freedom to believe in whatever deities that they want to believe in and should be allowed to worship them in whatever manner is fitting. The only exception to this would be impeding upon the free will of others i.e. Human sacrafices, torture, things of that nature. Animal sacrifices? Sure, why not. There are a bunch of them anyways. It's not like we're going to run out anytime soon. Getting back to my original point, America did pretty much the same thing when it broke away from England and look at us now. Who's to say that Skyrim wouldn't become the next Cyrodill if they were to break away from the Empire? I just want to state though, that I do not hate the Empire. I realize that they are corrupt and dwindling but on the other side of that there is hope that they can redeem themselves. The Aldmeri Dominion on the other hand is basically just a group of prideful, self-righteous Altmer who think that they're better than everyone and deserve to rule everything. I basically join the Stormcloaks just because I want to weaken the Aldmeri Dominions influence in Skyrim so that people can have the basic religious freedoms that all people deserve to have.

[terzho]

I wouldn't go so far as to say its a choice between Tamriel vs Skyrim becase let's think about it for a second. The Aldemeri dominion only wants to war against the Human races. Eleswyr and Valenwood joined the Aldemeri Dominion willingly and let's face it, are better off. The Argonians of Black Marsh left the empire and are also better off since they own a majority of Morrowind. Hammerfall have shown they can hold off on their own and had a right to leave the empire as they pretty much got sold out with the majority of their lands being planned on being given away. So this leaves us with a weak Cyrodil, a half unwilling-opressed Skyrim and High rock. If skyrim stays with the Empire they get their resources taken away, aren't allowed to openly worship their God and have to wait around for Cyrodil to eventually rebuild. Skyrim by itself is stronger then a Skyrim getting leached off of by a weak Cyrodil. So it's not really Tamriel vs Skyrim. It's more whether you still care about Cyrodil or you want a strong Skyrim. Who says that Skyrim by itself can't hold off against the Aldemeri Dominion. They don't have to lose resources to Cyrodil so they can focus on themselves.

 

Maybe when Cyrodil gets their act together and rebuild they can make an alliance with skyrim on Skyrims Terms rather then forcing them.

 

This is, really, a highly skewed breakdown of the current history and political alignment.

 

First, within the Dominion, very few people are 'better off'. Summerset and Valenwood regularly suffer from Stalinesque purges, where dissadents and political rivals are executed by the Thalmor. Elswyr currently suffers froma 'God complex' and veritably worship the Thalmor because of the moon incedent, which may or may not have involved the Thalmor at all.

 

Second, Hammerfell did not 'hold off on their own' but in fact did so with the assistance of a large force of Imperial Legionaries, who had been 'dissmissed' for the express purpose of protecting Hammerfell. It was these soldiers who not only bore the brunt of the fighting, but the brunt of the casualties, so in the end Hammerfell was still saved through the shedding of imperial blood.

 

Third, the Domminion does not 'only' want war with the Humans, they want the complete subjugation of all non-Mer on Tamriel. The Humans just happen to be the ones putting up the biggest fight. There are also indications that the Thalmor want to literally destroy the world to regain their godhood, but thats a convoluted hypothesis better placed elsewhere.

 

Fourth, the asumption that Skyrim alone is stronger than Skyrim in the Empire is assuming that all Skyrim's resources go to feeding the Empire. Not only is this not shown in game, but its mentioned in Falkreath, Markarth, Whiterun, Solitude and even Riften that Skyrim largely depends on trade with Cyrodiil. Cutting off that trade would, in fact, make Skyrim weaker.

 

Fifth, the Argonians do not, in fact, control the majority of Morrowind. The Infernal City states quite clearly that, after exacting their revenge on Drez and Telvaani, they withdrew back into their swamps. Asside from that, we have absolutely zero knowlege about their current state of affairs, so we can't judge whether or not their doing well. We are told that, however, that the last time a Hist seperated its self from the network it caused something of a civil war as the other Hist worked to destroy it. Since the Hist in Lilmoth did just that, for all we know the whole province could still be embroiled in a Argonian civil war.

 

Finally, you'll note that i refer to the Empire and Cyrodiil independantly. Thats because the two are not synonomous. The Empire is a inter-national governing body which acts in the intrests of all the provinces. That does not seem to ahve changed, as it's still in the Provinces intrests to deal with the Thalmor. We are told by Tullius directly that the reason he has so few troops is because the main Legion armies are rallied at the Domminion border. Just because the capital is in Cyrodiil does not mean the Empire works solely in Cyrodiil's intrests.

 

As such, i stand by the statement that the factions revolve around Tamriel-vs-Skyrim.

 

The thing is the Empire is not all the provinces anymore. Like I said before High Rock, Cyrodil and Skyrim are the only nations that are in the Empire anymore and half of Skyrim is fighting for independence. For better or worst the other nations have joined the Aldemeri dominion, been ruined like Morrowing or gone independent like the Black Marsh. Skyrim gaining independence won't affect ALL of Tamriel only Cyrodil and maybe High Rock which we don't know enough about.

[thesapien]

VincentIcarus, it's hard to role-play and to not judge based on, well, being of man, for one. Depending on my character, I don't always side against the Thalmor. "Freedom of religion" hinges on those religions either not being true or just to avoid fighting over which one is correct and/or they don't have different known moral consequences. But when Talos is someone quite real (or is he?) then there really is a problem for the Thalmor and their own goals to undue The Trickster's curse of mortality. Remember, Tiber Septim demonstrated the worthiness Lorkhan's plan for a mortal to use Nirn to become like the Divine. The Thalmor oppose this method and would rather undue what was done. They believe the 8 Divines were made to give up power in the creation of Nirn under false pretenses. So, according to their religion, they are compelled to make things right.

 

It wouldn't make sense for them to just happily give up their mortality so that men can try to be gods.

 

My high elf character knows this and is compelled to do the right thing in fighting for their own mortality and undue the wrong that was done to them and their gods.

Edited January 31, 2012 by thesapien

[Astaril]

Imperials 100%

I think the Stormcloaks case is quite weak, I mean apart from the Talos thing what is there problem? Once a united Empire wins the war against the Thalmor then they can tear up the White Gold Concordat and then everything will be back to normal.

I can't even mention my opinion of Ulfric else I might get a strike for bad language! :P

 

In the beginning, it's really difficult though. When role-playing, do you fight your way out killing Stormcloaks? I go both routes half the time. But later in the game I usually just avoid joining either side.

 

But you make a good point, that defeating the Thalmor ought to be the main goal. Killing fellow Nords seems like the wrong enemy. It plays right into the Thalmor plans. So my question is why do the Stormcloaks kill their own countrymen? Does anyone know if it was the Imperials who were punishing Talos worshippers in any cases? I thought it was the Thalmor actually doing it. I've come across the one scene with dead Nords at a Talos shrine with a dead Thalmor. Did the killing of each other start with Ulfric?

 

I have only made two real characters so far but I agree with you on the roleplay at the begining! It seems bonkers to go with the Imperial guy after he gave the go ahead for you to have your head cut off, so I always go with the Stormcloak guy first of all (I like slaying that bossy Imperial woman as well :tongue: ) After seeing the larger picture and learning more about Ulfric and the war, I then roleplayed that my character sees the need for the war to end and sides with the Imperials for the greater good of Skyrim. She always remains sympathetic to some people who back the Stormcloaks though.(for instance I rescued that guy from the Thalmor tower) as she blames Ulfric entirely for brainwashing the Nords for his own agenda.

 

On the killing of the Talos worshippers, I came across a similar scene to you quite near the starting area. I seem to recall a note on the Thalmor where an Imperial Officer was trying to deny that the shrine existed and was trying to put the guy off? Is that the same one? I will try and look it up.

[Astaril]

Arh no, its not an Imperial guy it's from Elenwen. Here is the note on the Dead Thalmor agent..

 

Thalmor Orders

[CalvinGodly]

I have always favored the Empire. I'll no doubt get crap for it. I just really like order, and with the Stormcloaks, I never really seen order to it. I'll admit that I don't know a lot about both sides, and if I was told everything about both sides, I could possibly change my mind, but...

Well, anyways, based on my experiences with the Empire, I would favor them.

[CasperTheLich]

as for the whole "the empire is the only thing keeping the thalmor out of skyrim." well, they aren't, are they? there are thalmor agents crawling all over skyrim. some or most are conducting illegal operations, including but not limited to... assassinating potential threats to dominion superiority (whether or not they happen to be talos worshipers, which is not allowed by the concordant, no matter how much the thalmor may wish it). abducting anyone for any reason they see fit, attacking travelers without provocation (most of my characters love this) at the drop of a hat. the list goes on. the empire isn't going to fight the thalmor till the thalmor want it, mainly when the empire can't stand on it's own two feet, let alone fight a war. Well that’s how my pro stormcloak characters put it. i'm rambling so i guess i've had my fill for tonig... this morning.

[PCGamer5]

I'm very sorry if bumping old threads like this one is against forum rules, but I did not want to make yet another redundant topic about Imperials vs. Stormcloaks.

 

I mean both sides despicable in their own manner, but, my very first Skyrim character was an Imperial who sided with the Stormcloaks because I went with Ralof instead of Hadvar. I would have sided with the Imperial Legion, but they are in the pockets of the Thalmor and caved in to their demands. For some reason, I think the Empire has a better chance in numbers against the Dominion compared to the Stormcloaks. But, in the history of Tamriel, the Nords in Skyrim managed to fend off the first Aldmeri Dominion; no doubt, the Stormcloaks could do it again. Plus, they could use Hammerfell as an ally, as, most of the Redguards managed to drive out the Thalmor.

 

I even had two Nords and two Khajiit characters who sided with the Stormcloaks. Of course, they are racist, but, I have that belief that Skyrim is the land of the Nords and I am behind Ulfric Stormcloak because he challenged High King Torygg to a duel, which was perfectly legal, though, he was branded a murderer a number of Jarls, because he had the balls to stand up to the Thalmor, and, even if Skyrim falls to the Thalmor, Ulfric would have surely been a brave Nord for challenging the Dominion.

[kradus]

I think Ulfric was branded a murderer because he used an overwelming force against the other man in what was supposed to be a fair duel. Torygg was compelled by honor and tradition to accept the fight even knowing he had no chance. But Ulfric did the equivalent to bringing a gun to a sword fight, so much for honor. I think Ulfric would have gained much more political support if he had fought the traditional way, would have probably won the match anyway.