Very Low Quality Mods

[David Brasher]

I guess there are a couple of things I ought to clarify my views about.

 

(1) Any modder of any skill level should be allowed to upload a mod. This includes brand new people who have never built a mod before. However, if the mod has bugs, then the modder needs to fix the bugs and upload a new version, add information to their readme explaining what the bugs are, where they are, why they cannot be fixed, and how to best work out around them, or else hide or pull down the mod to prevent gamers from having problems with it. If a person uploads a mod labeled as something like "alpha", "beta", "WIP", or "abandoned mod," then the expectations are different. No one really expects that the modder is going to read comments or fix bugs if their mod is labeled as an abandoned mod. No one expects that a beta is going to be complete and fully polished. If you have a bad mod uploaded, and you can't fix it, and don't want to hide it or pull it down, then you should change your documentation so that people know it is a bad mod, and what its problems are, so that they can make an informed decision about using it.

 

If you have a bad mod that people are complaining about, you can ask them for help. The chances are good that the people who complained about your mod care enough about it that will give you good technical advice on how to fix it. There may even be some of them who would be willing to do modding work to help you fix it or additional play-testing to make sure you solved the problem. This forum is a good place to ask for help with fixing your bad mods so that they won't be bad mods anymore, and you will start getting praise and endorsements.

 

(2) If you are a gamer, you shouldn't have to put up with bad mods, and if you are putting up with bad mods, then it is partially your own fault. You need to take action. As soon as you realize you are using a bad mod, you should send in your negative comments and your error reports. These comments and bug reports will make it so that the modder will fix the bugs, or else make it so the gamers will see that the mod is bad and isn't going to get fixed, and will stop downloading and using it. As a gamer, every negative comment you make and every error report you submit will help protect the rest of the Oblivion community from suffering the bugs that you have suffered. It is like the golden rule. If there is a trap in the road, you should be a good citizen and warn people about it so that others won't fall into it as you did.

Edited February 2, 2012 by David Brasher

[Brittainy]

I must admit, I really don't have any expectations of how of a mod should be or even that it will work. I just HOPE that it won't crash and if it's a bit of a mess I'll live with it if it offers at least a bit of what I want.

 

I prefer it if mod authors are honest about glitches...but even if they aren't that won't stop me from trying something.

 

I absolutely agree that each modder should ideally try and make things as well-tested and solid as possible, but everyone has to start somewhere and abilities are always going to vary greatly. I think it's a good idea to read up on putting a mod together, since it can certainly help with keeping the presentation and bugs in check.

 

Ultimately though, I will take anyone's effort at modding as a bonus.

 

I'd rather see buggy attempts at new modifications than none at all. Very often there will be a minor mod that just misses the mark of what I wanted, but I'll still download it and tweak it myself to suit. And, given that it's usually something I couldn't have done on my own, I'm grateful that someone else made a start on it - so to speak.

 

Despite tutorials and information galore, there are those of us like myself who muddle through with trial and error and despite our best efforts, flaws slip through. :facepalm:

 

Modders don't owe gamers anything. I think it's certainly more polite and considerate to make public mods as user-friendly and functional as possible, but I definitely don't think that is owed to users.

 

Sometimes a buggy release is just a way of showing an attempt at something or to try to achieve a certain effect which partly fails. Maybe the author will know it's not perfect, but if it's the only mod of its kind they figure they might as well get it out there and maybe someone will take the idea and run with it. Or possibly someone will simply enjoy a buggy mod that gives them something new, albeit imperfect.

 

Absolutely aim for the best you can do...but if your best happens to be crap, I still say go for it and hope to keep improving with time. (And possibly a lot of painful trial and error :tongue: )

 

Some of us have to learn the hard way...and that means a lot of bugs and bad descriptions. Sometimes it takes a lot of hassles and some feedback to get on the right track.

 

:thumbsup:

 

I think posting suggestions such as you have done with your list is great. Any lists of what to do - especially when you're new to modding - is bloody handy. But I must say that I'll be fairly forgiving to those who still don't take the suggestions on board simply because I know how it feels to be so green with modding that you feel your brain has nearly exploded just from completing the mod...let alone thinking about tarting it all up for a very intimidating public release.

 

Sometimes you just whack something together, put it out there, and half the time you're not even sure what you're doing or how good it is and very often you'll just be making a half-arsed attempt at mimicking the way mods are packaged together that you've downloaded before without even understanding that much about the file structure beyond "if I do it this way, it works...I think"

 

I know I never even saw a 'to do' list for uploading a mod until I'd uploaded...well...nearly all my mods :facepalm:

 

So, I do thank people like yourself for putting out information about how a mod 'should' be done...but I still think it's an ideal more than an obligation. And hey, usually when a modder gets a bit more serious about their public works, they learn to clean up their act.

 

It never hurts to give a run-down on how to ideally put something together. However, ultimately a mod is in the hands of the author and if they release the most user-unfriendly mess of a mod in the world, we the users are still lucky to get it.

 

:happy:

Edited February 3, 2012 by Brittainy

[kingtitan]

It would seem that I am one of the more "green" members participating in this conversation, so I will keep my comments brief.

 

First off, I want to point out how frequently people in the community are unwilling to read ANYTHING about the mod. And I'm not exaggerating. Just the other day I "helped out" someone that basically was just too lazy to read the description or look at screen shots. He thought that the armor from the mod was magically supposed to appear in his inventory while the description (and accompanying location ss) CLEARLY stated otherwise. All that to say that if you are downloading, please read what you are downloading before you do it! I may be wrong, but I would assume that at least 80% (or more) of modders (who are native or clear english speakers) document their mods very well and describe what one should do to unlock it's content. I've always made it a point to know what I am getting myself into prior to downloading, and I believe that would solve many problems, especially among those new to the community.

 

I'm glad Drake provided a sufficient rebuttal just so that both sides of the argument are clarified. However, there is a significant difference between aspiring WIPs and "half crap" mods that new people slap up just because they want to. I mean, for example, "scripted argonian feet" is a great example because it pushes the limits of the game engine. Yes, its going to have its moments, but I would rather use something like that than some poorly put together mod that might change a couple game settings. Nonetheless, people have to start somewhere. I'm still very heavily learning the ins and outs of oblivion modding myself, but I know a ton more now than I did a year ago!

 

I think another issue is the lack of updated and relevant tutorial information. I understand that taking the time to post a tutorial is time consuming, but just like Brasher said, if you can't do a good job with it, you may as well not try. There is no point to writing a tutorial that takes shortcuts only the author coherently understands.

 

I think what it comes down to for me is that I am very willing to have patience with a new modder who wants to learn the "trade" and increase his (or her) skills. It's part of being new, and like it or not we were all that guy at one time! But for the people that just put stuff up on the forums like "OMG I have no idea why oblivion is crashing" or those that put up mods that are not well thought out but quickly put together, I have little patience for. Without a willingness to learn, you are wasting your time as well as ours. I also want to make one slight modification to Brasher's last post, #2. If you are a gamer, you RUN THE RISK of putting up with bad mods. Its not a right or a privilege to have working mods 100% of the time, its a liability. If you don't trust the author or his modding ability, don't download the mod and ESPECIALLY don't whine. Basically what brittainy said, "Modders don't owe gamers anything." I think that is the most important bottom line to remember.

[Leemerful]

I will definetly follow these rules whn making mods.

Thanks man.

 

P.S. It would also help if people posted feedback on mods.

[Zapata935]

I believe what everyone is forgetting including my friend David is, when you download and install non-studio material, you are accepting the consequences of that material!

We all would love to be Walt Disney and create worlds and environments to drop the jaw! But getting back to reality, the construction set allows anybody to screw up all eternity! Just like real life, i.e George W Bush! There is a better tool out there to clean your mod though, it is called TES Gecko! Check it out. Best Wishes Zapata935

[Fonger]

I believe what everyone is forgetting including my friend David is, when you download and install non-studio material, you are accepting the consequences of that material!

ROTLFMAO you are forgetting how official DLC introduce bugs

 

so to bring what you have stated into the realm of reality consider changing it as follows:

I believe what everyone is forgetting including my friend David is, when you download and install any material, you are accepting the consequences of that material!

[Lisnpuppy]

David--I have to say I understand your intent and that having a set of ideals to go by that every modder would take to heart would be wonderful. However sometimes real life happens preventing modders from returning, some lose interest or do not have the abilities they perhaps should and some even are scared off by the exceedingly high standards this community sometimes sets forth.

 

To my knowledge there is no rules either here or with Bethesda to make "quality" modifications. Indeed sometimes quality is in the eyes of the beholder. I am afraid that how you are now going about this is a way that will not garner the results to which you hope. Making quality mods and being open and accessible to the community would, in my opinion, be the best way to get these ideals you have done.

 

I realize it is frustrating to many to wade through what they think are mods that could be done better or not done at all *grin* but that is the price paid when something is open to everyone. If you know what the Serenity Prayer is....you might want to tack it on your computer somewhere (if not I would be happy to direct you to it.) I find it helpful.

[David Brasher]

I think I need to clarify one of my views again. Let me quote what I said earlier:

 

(1) Any modder of any skill level should be allowed to upload a mod. This includes brand new people who have never built a mod before. However, if the mod has bugs, then the modder needs to fix the bugs and upload a new version, add information to their readme explaining what the bugs are, where they are, why they cannot be fixed, and how to best work out around them, or else hide or pull down the mod to prevent gamers from having problems with it. If a person uploads a mod labeled as something like "alpha", "beta", "WIP", or "abandoned mod," then the expectations are different. No one really expects that the modder is going to read comments or fix bugs if their mod is labeled as an abandoned mod. No one expects that a beta is going to be complete and fully polished. If you have a bad mod uploaded, and you can't fix it, and don't want to hide it or pull it down, then you should change your documentation so that people know it is a bad mod, and what its problems are, so that they can make an informed decision about using it.

 

If you have a bad mod that people are complaining about, you can ask them for help. The chances are good that the people who complained about your mod care enough about it that will give you good technical advice on how to fix it. There may even be some of them who would be willing to do modding work to help you fix it or additional play-testing to make sure you solved the problem. This forum is a good place to ask for help with fixing your bad mods so that they won't be bad mods anymore, and you will start getting praise and endorsements.

 

It is no crime to be a new modder and do your best and make and upload a mod that is actually a horrible piece of junk. Every modder was a new modder at one point. Modding is difficult. Play-testing takes a long time. It is quite likely that the modder doesn't even know the bugs are there because of his or her play-testing style and what chanced to happen during his or her play-testing. So it is okay for a new modder, or a modder who makes a mistake to upload a mod that is actually a horrible piece of junk.

 

This is the part I have a major problem with: a modder leaves a mod that is actually a horrible piece of junk there for download after people have reported the problems and the modder realizes there are serious issues with the mod. Unless the modder is an irresponsible loser who cares nothing about others, then one or more of these actions need to be taken:

(1) Fix the bugs and upload a new version of the mod. It is okay to ask people for help and read tutorials and wikis if you don't know how to fix the bugs in your mod.

(2) Change your documentation to explain where the bugs are, why you can't fix them, and how best to work out around them.

(3) Hide your mod to prevent people from downloading it and having problems. This is usually done until you can do option 1 or option 2, and done if it is going to take a long time before you can do option 1 or option 2.

(4) Pull down your mod to prevent people from downloading it and having problems. You delete your file from the mod site to permanently deal with the problem. This is a last resort for if your mod is so bad it would be easier to build it over again than to fix it, or if you really don't care about your mod and are just going to bug out and slink off with your tail between your legs. It would be much better to fix your mod rather than pulling it down. Or if you can't fix it, then document the problems with it as described in option 2.

 

It is okay for people to make mistakes and upload bad mods because they are new modders, because they are not very good at modding, because they were rushed, or because they let their guard down and goofed.

 

In my opinion, it is not okay to leave bad mods available for download once you find out that they are bad mods. That is where the irresponsibility, selfishness, laziness, and lack of caring for others comes into the picture.

Edited February 4, 2012 by David Brasher

[Lisnpuppy]

I agree that all these things are a great "Best Practices" for modding along with other things. However what exactly are you wanting to happen here? Is your hope that every modder will read this and then do this? Are you wishing that the Nexus or Bethesda make enforceable rules indicating mod standards? Or are you merely hoping to spread the word? I am honestly curious. You desires for what it should be is clear...now exactly how you plan it to be is my question. Who decides what is indeed a crap mod. Do you have the time or inclination to go through the thousands of mods on this site and add them to your game, make a decision and then delete them? What about all the fallout from said activities?

 

Perhaps the modders can get together and make a "Modding Best Practices" and put it on the wiki here and the Elder Scrolls Wiki? If people see that this is an expected standard perhaps more would make the attempt?

 

However as it stands you can spread the word and encourage and do the things I mentioned above and that is about it.

[AnimalRiot]

@ David: As a mod user (having no published mods of my own) it always occurred to me that downloading and using mods was at the expense of my own risk. However, I understand your frustration and intentions. I have always appreciated well-made mods by talented modders and how they can enrich my gaming experience.

 

Let me just say that I like the direction this thread is going and I think best practices for modding games should be discussed and encouraged. Then maybe in the end, there would be some consensus within the community with how to implement such ideas.