Morality of God

[Peregrine]

Did you even read my post, or do you just blindly post your fanatical beliefs? This is a "what if" situation. I'm not claiming that God has actually done this. The question is what would you do if God did this. There is a very relevant point to all of this.

 

I never said there was an 11th commandment. The situation is that God appears in front of you today and hands you the newly written commandment:

 

Thou shalt sacrifice a child in my name every week. Thou shalt kill it in the most painful way possible, so that its screams may properly honor me. This command is good, holy, and just. This is God's word.

 

Now stop dodging the question. It's very poor debating to simply ignore any question that might show a weakness in your side's case. And it's even worse debating to misquote and ignore the other side's arguments. Since you insist on avoiding this question, there are only three possible conclusions:

 

1) Your answer is no and you know that you would have to concede some of your arguments because of it.

 

2) Your answer is yes, and you're afraid to say that you would murder children.

 

3) You are honestly illiterate enough to continue to miss the point of my question despite multiple explanations.

 

If your next post doesn't give a clear answer, then I will consider that a concession of the debate, and you are done with this thread.

[ThetaOrionis01]

@ hundinman:

 

Interesting, are you implying that you do not sin? I do not just BELIEVE that everyone sins it is a KNOWN fact to all people who have common sense, sorry if that description excludes you. But, I know you sin and you know you sin, accept it.

 

First of all - your post is completely off-topic and totally irrelevant to the discussion.

 

Secondly - you obviously haven't understood most of mine.

 

Thirdly - I do not believe in your superstition, stop forcing it down my throat. I do not believe in the concept of 'sin' as defined by your religion. Clear enough for you? As for the common sense statement.... I leave it to others to judge just who is lacking that. For the last time - keep your fanatical beliefs applied to yourself only and do not force them upon everybody else. :angry:

 

Call it what you will but it is a debate

 

A debate is when people present arguments, usually in a logical fashion. So far, your posts have been woefully lacking in argument, but have been instead full of fanaticism.

 

You say you will not comment on the fact that I stated Peregrines theory was hypothetical, you just did.

 

Wrong. What I refrained from commenting on in my previous post was this immature (and wholly inappropriate to a debates forum) comment of yours:

 

Peregrine: 1 down, 2 to go. (Darnoc/Hundinman)

 

 

 

Well, I could go on and argue with every quote you made

Darn fine job you did so far. You have just proven that you have a lot to learn before you can actually participate in a debate. And quite frankly, judging by your previous standard of posting, I don't believe that you actually could present a coherent argument in the way Greywolf, Darnoc and punkfiveo have done.

 

To give this post some actual relevance to the topic, on to Breton Thief Oriana's post:

 

 

plus, some level of cruelty is needed for those that would not repent

Why?

 

the bad people have their own ways to make them recieve good things

 

How, if god is all-powerful and all-knowing? They can't cheat god - he already knows what will happen to them. If good things happen to bad people it is by his will alone - or else he would not be all-powerful.

 

 

but maybe god cannot be completely involved with all the flaws of the human race; he needs time to keep the processes going, right? and thats a full time job, right?

 

By definition he's all-powerful and all-knowing - yes, he can be involved with everything. He created the flaws in the first place, after all. By being god, he is aware of everything. Somehow I don't think someone who created everything within 7 days keeps normal office hours....

 

 

do you think we could do better?

 

We are only human - we are not god. And yet most of us don't consider genocide a viable option to deal with people who disagree with us. Most of us respect people's right to freedom of religion. Our laws (with the exception of the odd totalitarian regime perhaps) don't sentence people who disagree with the government to torture and death. And I could go on. By comparison, god is immoral, cruel and sadistic.

 

 

no, it's our fault that most of the things happen anyway.

 

No. If god is all-powerful etc, he created everything to happen precisely the way it is happening. It's all his fault.

 

 

well, he didnt stop me from doing it, now did he? that is free will. god didnt stop the serial killer in my state from murdering more people. he didnt stop me from banging my head aggainst the wall. he might have known that i was going to, even that i was doing it to prove that he wouldnt stop me, but still he doesnt stop me. that is free will.

 

No. He gives you an illusion of free will, no more. God knew about the serial killer when he created him, he knew about your head-banging choice before he created you. He is all-knowing. He doesn't have to stop you from doing something because he knows in advance that you will not do it. There never was any choice because god knew in advance what you would do. If god is god, there can be no free will.

[Breton Thief Oriana]

likewise, my arguement remains the same. HE DIDNT TRY TO STOP ME. even though he could have. does that mean he wants me to bang my head aggainst the wall? who can say. i couldve told myself not to, thus ending that problem or just createing new ones where you would say--

 

No. He gives you an illusion of free will, no more. God knew about the serial killer when he created him, he knew about your head-banging choice before he created you. He is all-knowing. He doesn't have to stop you from doing something because he knows in advance that you will not do it. There never was any choice because god knew in advance what you would do. If god is god, there can be no free will.

(which, on note, is the most nuerotic, pessimistic statement ive ever heared)

 

--so god is a paradox. he gives us "seeming" (to your mind) choice. but i dont think even god can see all views of time. if he could, the entropy would be so large that we would all cease to be. no god would have such a sense of futillity that he would use a single man to cleanse masses of people.

 

 

QUOTE 

plus, some level of cruelty is needed for those that would not repent

 

Why?

 

because otherwise the didnt learn the lesson he tried to provide that the repenters listened to. (Dur... :mellow: ) if we hit our brother because they were mean, does that make us cruel? yes. those who say that two wrongs dont make a right are wrong themselves. they might not make a right, but they still resolve a conflict. and god, being cruelest and yet most merciful of all, gives us a CHOICE to either accept repentence or "burn in hell" (or whatever, because i dont really know; im not dead yet).

 

 

QUOTE 

the bad people have their own ways to make them recieve good things

 

 

 

How, if god is all-powerful and all-knowing? They can't cheat god - he already knows what will happen to them. If good things happen to bad people it is by his will alone - or else he would not be all-powerful.

 

then maybe he is only WRITTEN as being all powerful.

 

 

QUOTE 

but maybe god cannot be completely involved with all the flaws of the human race; he needs time to keep the processes going, right? and thats a full time job, right?

 

 

 

By definition he's all-powerful and all-knowing - yes, he can be involved with everything. He created the flaws in the first place, after all. By being god, he is aware of everything. Somehow I don't think someone who created everything within 7 days keeps normal office hours....

 

hey, i created an entire leggo universe in seven minutes. i dont know weither they have free will or not....or actually i do. they have no free will, they are legos. bad example :blink: . but if they were alive, and i changed all their clothes and such, and i was "god", i wouldnt be all powerful/all knowing because there are many, many people with other legos all around the world. so maybe god is only Written as god.

 

QUOTE 

no, it's our fault that most of the things happen anyway.

 

No. If god is all-powerful etc, he created everything to happen precisely the way it is happening. It's all his fault.

 

god wouldnt like you saying that :P . that should be taken in context with "Do you think we could do better" for you to get what i was saying, instead of how you addressed it on its own. if we were in charge of us, as i think we are but not to the godlike extent, we would be just as bad. god is not "all powerful". sure, hes powerfull, maybe even infinity times superman, but nothing is all powerful. (and please dont correct my math)

[Darnoc]

No. He gives you an illusion of free will, no more. God knew about the serial killer when he created him, he knew about your head-banging choice before he created you. He is all-knowing. He doesn't have to stop you from doing something because he knows in advance that you will not do it. There never was any choice because god knew in advance what you would do. If god is god, there can be no free will.

 

Yes, there was a choice. And I am going to prove it to you.

 

Let's say, I have some tea. I can now decide to put sugar in it or not. Now I choose to put sugar in it. A good friend of mine watches me and says then to me: "I knew from the beginning that you would choose to put sugar in the tea. You like tea with sugar. Why should you choose to do otherwise? So it was obvious that you would put sugar into the tea."

 

Now my friend knew exactly what was going to happen. But did this knowlegde of his hinder my free will? No, it was my decicision. I decided to put sugar into the tea, because I like tea when it has sugar in it. There is no reason for me to put no sugar into this tea.

 

Now god is of course on a much larger scale than my friend. God knows everything. He also knew that I would choose to put sugar into this tea. He also knew that I would write this reply to prove to you, Theta, that you are wrong. But it was my decision to write this reply, not his.

 

Now you could argue if god really acts the way my friend did and everything that happens is because we made a decision he could forsee somehow (because it was somehow obvious that we would make this exact decision in this exact situation and moment) then why do some things happen which aren't predictable? Why do some things happen which don't have to do anything with logic, feeling, reason? Why are there things happening because of mere chance? Things you can't predict. Things like luck.

 

God knows everything. So he also knows a way to predict and calculate luck and other things we can't forsee or predict with our knowlegde or reason. God creates certain circumstances this way that exactly only one possibility is left that will happen. Because he is allknowing he knows exactly what I am going to do in this exact situation and circumstance. If we could ask him, he would be able to explain it to us with logic and reason why I did decide what I decided. For him it was absolutely clear that I would decide this way, even when I had the possibility to decide otherwise. It is like my example with tea and sugar, but much more complex. Because god knows everything he knows also the reason why a psychopath decided to kill someone even when we don't see the reason (because we don't have the knowlegde he has and we can't see all the facts). For him it is obvious that a person would decide the way this person decided, as it was obvious to my friend that I would choose to put sugar into my tea. He knows all the facts and he therefore can therefore plan the circumstances to happen in a way that I will choose whatever he wants me to choose.

 

OK, I'll have to give you a more complex example so that you believe me. Let's take a war scenario. A soldier has to decide if he wants to go on a suicide mission or not. This soldier knows exactly that his chances of survival are very small, they are in fact zero. It is a volunteer job, there is nothing which would force this person to accept this mission. There are plenty more personel avaible who would be far more better than he is.

Now his reason tell this man that he shouldn't take the job. Why waste owns life if it is clear that there are no chances of survival? But then some thoughts come to this person. First of all he remembers his father which took such a suicide mission when he was at war and survived. He wants his father to be proud of him also. Then the thought comes to him that nothing is really ever sure. Almost anything could happen. Something unpredictable that would save his life. And he also knows that when he would take the mission, it would be his last one, he could go home after it.

Now on one side there is logic and reason, which tell this man not to take the job. On the other hand is his will to make his father proud, his believe that something unpredictable could happen and that he will return home, if he survives this mission.

He has now a choice to make, this choice if of his own free will. He chooses to take the suicide mission, becaue it was always important to him what his father thought about him. He remembers when his father told him when he saw him last time: "Make me proud, son!" And so he chooses against reason.

Now god knew all these facts. He knew even more than I now mentioned. And because of this knowlegde he could predict exactly what this man would choose to do with the use of his own free will. Because god knew all this facts, it was obvious to him that this young man would choose to go on this suicide mission and eventually get killed in it.

 

Circumstances and situation. Be at the right place in the right time. This is, what this it all about. God creates the circumstances and situations. He knows exactly, because he knows all the facts, what we will choose to do. Even when we have a choice to do otherwise.

 

So, we do have free will, even when god knew from the beginning what did, what we're doing and what we will going to do.

[Breton Thief Oriana]

Yes, there was a choice. And I am going to prove it to you.

 

-Let's say, I have some tea. I can now decide to put sugar in it or not. Now I choose to put sugar in it. A good friend of mine watches me and says then to me: "I knew from the beginning that you would choose to put sugar in the tea. You like tea with sugar. Why should you choose to do otherwise? So it was obvious that you would put sugar into the tea."

-Now my friend knew exactly what was going to happen. But did this knowlegde of his hinder my free will? No, it was my decicision. I decided to put sugar into the tea, because I like tea when it has sugar in it. There is no reason for me to put no sugar into this tea.

-Now god is of course on a much larger scale than my friend. God knows everything. He also knew that I would choose to put sugar into this tea. He also knew that I would write this reply to prove to you, Theta, that you are wrong. But it was my decision to write this reply, not his.

 

hippocrit :P . you said we didnt have free will in a different thread darnoc!

 

 

but, on another hand, thank you for more concisely clerifying my ideas. im not the best speaker if it doesnt show :blush: .

[ThetaOrionis01]

@ Darnoc:

 

Your examples leave out the fundamental difference between your friend and the soldier, and god.

 

Your friend does not know with absolute certainty what you will put in your tea. He can make an assumption about your choice, based on previous experience, but he does not know what you will do. Instead of putting milk and sugar into your tea, you might have thrown cup plus contents against the wall. You might have decided to invert the cup over your head and dance on the table. Your friend is not god - all he can do is weigh up the probabilities of the choices you could make. Until you actually make the choice, all possibilities are still possible.

 

The same principle applies to the soldier. He can estimate the probabilities of death or survival, and balance them against the prospect of making his father proud, etc. He could decide instead to insult his commanding officer, and get court-martialled. He could decide to defect to the other side. He can decide to shoot himself in the foot. Because he does not know with absolute certainty what he will do until he does it, any choice is possible until he chooses. The soldier is not god, he cannot see the future.

 

 

This is the fundamental difference - neither your friend not the soldier know the future. God however does.

 

 

Your friend does not know which choice, out of all possible choices, you will make. God does. And in the moment that god knows this, all other choices cease to exist. Because god is all-knowing, he knows with absolute certainty what your choice will be. The probability of you making this choice is 100% - the choice will be made. All other options have 0 probability from the moment god knows what your decision will be. They cease to exist even as possibilities. You cannot make any other choice than the one god knows you will make.

You may think that you are carefully considering the options of whether to drink your tea, or pour it on the floor, or have coffee instead, but it is already known to god what you will do. Your choice has been fixed - all your careful consideration about what to do with your tea are but an illusion of free will.

 

God creates the circumstances and situations. He knows exactly, because he knows all the facts, what we will choose to do

 

Precisely.

 

Even when we have a choice to do otherwise.

 

We don't.

 

Now you could argue if god really acts the way my friend did and everything that happens is because we made a decision he could forsee somehow (because it was somehow obvious that we would make this exact decision in this exact situation and moment) then why do some things happen which aren't predictable?

 

Not predictable to humans, who are not all-knowing.

 

 

Why do some things happen which don't have to do anything with logic, feeling, reason? Why are there things happening because of mere chance? Things you can't predict. Things like luck.

 

We can't predict them. God doesn't have to predict them. He already knows.

 

 

So, we do have free will, even when god knew from the beginning what did, what we're doing and what we will going to do.

 

No. From the moment god knows what our choices will be we only have an illusion of free will.

 

 

@ Breton Thief Oriana

 

but i dont think even god can see all views of time.

 

Then he is not god. God is all-knowing.

 

if he could, the entropy would be so large that we would all cease to be. no god would have such a sense of futillity that he would use a single man to cleanse masses of people.

 

How do you know?

 

 

those who say that two wrongs dont make a right are wrong themselves. they might not make a right, but they still resolve a conflict.

 

Please explain. Are you saying that punishment by god is a wrong? That, I believe, has been my point all along. God is immoral.

 

then maybe he is only WRITTEN as being all powerful

 

then maybe he isn't god at all

 

 

but if they were alive, and i changed all their clothes and such, and i was "god", i wouldnt be all powerful/all knowing because there are many, many people with other legos all around the world. so maybe god is only Written as god.

 

So perhaps there is more than one god? But if god is not all-powerful and all-knowing, he isn't god.

 

 

god is not "all powerful". sure, hes powerfull, maybe even infinity times superman, but nothing is all powerful.

 

Except god. If god is not all-powerful he is not god.

 

 

(which, on note, is the most nuerotic, pessimistic statement ive ever heared)

 

Lol. Only if you believe in such a deity. If you don't there's nothing neurotic or pessimistic about it - only a logical conclusion.

[Peregrine]

Interesting, are you implying that you do not sin? I do not just BELIEVE that everyone sins it is a KNOWN fact to all people who have common sense, sorry if that description excludes you. But, I know you sin and you know you sin, accept it.

 

By your flawed defition (with God's flawed definition as its origin) only. Yes, I sin in minor ways. I admit it, I've cheated in a game and very minor things like that. But to say I've sinned just as much as a mass murderer (even a human one!) is complete insanity.

 

And that ignores the fact that God's idea of sin is absolutely barbaric. By no civilized system of justice is it a crime to disagree with authority. Only someone as immoral as God could commit genocide, or sentence people to eternal suffering, to punish it.

 

My statement about the unbeatable force is by no means a joke. If a debate is not possible with me then what the heck are we doing now? Are Peregrine and I just throwing crap onto the computer screen with no reason? NO. I believe that we are having what is NORMALLY called a debate. Call it what you will but it is a debate.

 

A debate is barely possible with you. You dodge questions, make up facts, argue impossible logic, and generally refuse to concede any flaw in your position, no matter what method you have to use to do so.

 

 

=======================================

 

And now, to deal with all the "we do have free will" arguments...

 

1) God is all powerful. God could create the universe in any way he chooses. A universe in which I am a Christian and get into heaven is just as easy to create as the present one in which I am an atheist and go to hell.

 

2) God is all knowing. God knew before he even created the universe what the results would be. God knew before I was even born that because of the way he created the universe, I would become an atheist and that he would have to send me to hell.

 

Therefore any free will we have is just an illusion. God knows everything that will ever happen in his universe, and he picked that outcome out of all the ones available. Therefore he wanted me to become an atheist, and he wanted me to suffer in hell for eternity.

 

=======================================

Free will, part II

 

1. Assume God is omnipotent, omniscient, and benevolent.

2. Evil exists.

-- :. One of the above attributions must be incorrect.

Proof:

God, being omnipotent, cannot have chosen the best possible world (because evil exists) since he could simply choose a world that is exactly the same except for the lack of evil (dfn of omnipotence). Therefore, he must either not be wholly benevolent or wholly omnipotent.

[Breton Thief Oriana]

@Perigrine:

 

And now, to deal with all the "we do have free will" arguments...

 

1) God is all powerful. God could create the universe in any way he chooses. A universe in which I am a Christian and get into heaven is just as easy to create as the present one in which I am an atheist and go to hell.

 

2) God is all knowing. God knew before he even created the universe what the results would be. God knew before I was even born that because of the way he created the universe, I would become an atheist and that he would have to send me to hell.

 

Therefore any free will we have is just an illusion. God knows everything that will ever happen in his universe, and he picked that outcome out of all the ones available. Therefore he wanted me to become an atheist, and he wanted me to suffer in hell for eternity.

 

actually, this whole debate is based on choice, literally and figuratively. so much choice exists that we have just as many "free will exists" arguements as there are "free will does not exist" arguements.

 

 

@Theta Orions:

 

Please explain. Are you saying that punishment by god is a wrong? That, I believe, has been my point all along. God is immoral.

 

wrong and right are only viewed as absolutes. of course punishment by god is wrong, but in the same token, it is for wrongs by the punished. and if those people repent, they dont get punished, making god right even though two wrongs occured.

 

 

QUOTE 

if he could, the entropy would be so large that we would all cease to be. no god would have such a sense of futillity that he would use a single man to cleanse masses of people.

 

How do you know?

 

basic universal physics of paradocies. in order for all time to be an illusion (like free will, perhaps :huh: ) it would have to exist all at the same time. but it doesnt. we cannot travel into the past, only into the future. and as of now, only at a set speed. the entropy knot would be unravveled if god knew what was going to happen to infinity before it happened.

 

 

QUOTE 

then maybe he is only WRITTEN as being all powerful

 

then maybe he isn't god at all

 

a-HA! so you are catching on! maybe god isnt god at all...but, in order for the debate to function the way its creator wants it, let us assume he is god. and god is limited, despite what the texts say.

 

 

Except god. If god is not all-powerful he is not god.

 

then so be it. he isnt god, becsue in order to be all knowing, he would have to know the future. things may act in a PREDICTABLE outcome, but not in an absolute one. otherwise, as darnoc said, there would be no randoms. if god had really had control, would he have allowed Lucifer's rebellion? nope. it never would have happened.

 

 

Lol. Only if you believe in such a deity. If you don't there's nothing neurotic or pessimistic about it - only a logical conclusion.

 

nope, its pessimistic because you would become depressed and drained and shocked at hearing and questioning your free will. it would be like finding out you were a slave after years of assumed freedom.

[Peregrine]

actually, this whole debate is based on choice, literally and figuratively. so much choice exists that we have just as many "free will exists" arguements as there are "free will does not exist" arguements.

 

Did you even read my arguments? What you call free will is just an illusion. God knew everything that would happen in the universe that he created. He chose this universe out of all the possible ones that he could create. Every action you think is your free will has already been decided and planned by God.

 

wrong and right are only viewed as absolutes. of course punishment by god is wrong, but in the same token, it is for wrongs by the punished. and if those people repent, they dont get punished, making god right even though two wrongs occured.

 

Concession accepted. The "two wrongs make a right" argument is immoral as well. And so is God's method of repentance. It has nothing to do with their crimes, but with how well they satisfy his ego.

 

basic universal physics of paradocies. in order for all time to be an illusion (like free will, perhaps  ) it would have to exist all at the same time. but it doesnt. we cannot travel into the past, only into the future. and as of now, only at a set speed. the entropy knot would be unravveled if god knew what was going to happen to infinity before it happened.

 

Do you concede that God must obey the laws of physics and is not really all powerful? And what is this "entropy knot" you refer to?

 

If he could, the entropy would be so large that we would all cease to be. no god would have such a sense of futillity that he would use a single man to cleanse masses of people.

 

WHAT??? Since you clearly don't understand entropy....

 

Entropy: The disorder in a closed system tends to increase with any process.

 

Now WHAT does this have to do with futility? And why would we cease to exist because of it?

 

And you're even more wrong... perhaps God enjoys using one man. As an omnipotent being, he could easily kill them himself, or simply will them out of existence. But instead, he plays with his toys (us) and lets them destroy themselves... all for his sadistic pleasure.

 

a-HA! so you are catching on! maybe god isnt god at all...but, in order for the debate to function the way its creator wants it, let us assume he is god. and god is limited, despite what the texts say.

 

Translation: the facts alone don't produce the conclusion we want. Let's invent some new facts. The proper response here is to concede the debate, not make up some more facts for your side. By the rules of the debate, the bible is an unarguable historical account. If the bible says something bad for your side, it's called your side losing.

 

then so be it. he isnt god, becsue in order to be all knowing, he would have to know the future. things may act in a PREDICTABLE outcome, but not in an absolute one. otherwise, as darnoc said, there would be no randoms. if god had really had control, would he have allowed Lucifer's rebellion? nope. it never would have happened.

 

You don't get it, do you? God allowed rebellion because for some reason he wanted to. Perhaps it entertained him to watch Lucifer's futile attempts. Perhaps it would hurt his ego too much to simply kill Lucifer before he acted. Who knows, but lack of power is not the reason.

 

And I would suggest you read my posts. There are no randoms. If you flip a coin, its outcome is already decided based on the way God chose to create the universe. You have the illusion of randomness, but God already knows the answers. Despite our illusions, we are merely following his script precisely.

 

Nope, its pessimistic because you would become depressed and drained and shocked at hearing and questioning your free will. it would be like finding out you were a slave after years of assumed freedom.

 

Translation: the truth is less important than what we think about it. If the truth is depressing, too bad. Be depressed.

[Breton Thief Oriana]

QUOTE 

wrong and right are only viewed as absolutes. of course punishment by god is wrong, but in the same token, it is for wrongs by the punished. and if those people repent, they dont get punished, making god right even though two wrongs occured.

 

 

 

Concession accepted. The "two wrongs make a right" argument is immoral as well. And so is God's method of repentance. It has nothing to do with their crimes, but with how well they satisfy his ego.

 

if i may borrow from starship troopers "force is the driving method to resolve conflict." if the coflict is gone, no worries. plus, all you have to do is say that you want forgiveness for your crimes. on earth, no such forgiveness ever occurs. it's also alot easier to ask forgiveness than permission. of course god would say no if you asked to kill all of his creations. but he has no trouble forgivving you. its the people that DONT repent that go to hell.

 

 

Did you even read my arguments? What you call free will is just an illusion. God knew everything that would happen in the universe that he created. He chose this universe out of all the possible ones that he could create. Every action you think is your free will has already been decided and planned by God.

 

the one issue that comes up with that statement can be summed up in a single word: why? why did god make things this way? why do things change from their orriginal outcome? why is god ever changing?

 

 

Do you concede that God must obey the laws of physics and is not really all powerful? And what is this "entropy knot" you refer to?

 

yes, i do. god invented these laws of physics, and therefore must practice such. and the entropy knot is what binds the entropy before it unravvels, destroying the universe. the entropy must exist beforehand, and is only being held before a parodox, such as "god", destroys the knot and unravvels the entropy at which point the entire universe spirals down into oblivion.

 

 

WHAT??? Since you clearly don't understand entropy....

 

Entropy: The disorder in a closed system tends to increase with any process.

 

Now WHAT does this have to do with futility? And why would we cease to exist because of it?

 

why would god destroy the entire universe? it doesnt make sense. god would have to get really frustrated at this project that he calls whatever and that we call "The Universe". he would have such a sense of futillity that he destroys it just because he is a mad god, no other reason. using the definition of entropy, ill restate it:

--the dissorder in the closed system would be so large that we would cease to exist because a tear would be made in the fabric of space time. at which point we would not exist, nor would time, nor space, only god assuming that he is all powerful. and furthermore, god would probably cease to exist as well, since i believe that he is not all powerful, for, in order to be able to do so, he would have to have the all seeing power into the future, creating the tear and realising the entropy, which thusly explains how it increases because the process is repeated exponentially.

 

 

Translation: the facts alone don't produce the conclusion we want. Let's invent some new facts. The proper response here is to concede the debate, not make up some more facts for your side. By the rules of the debate, the bible is an unarguable historical account. If the bible says something bad for your side, it's called your side losing.

 

as a rule, i dont view any side as losing, only as existing, being viewed, stated, and staying to debate further points--we could conceivably argue with the moon if it would talk back, but it doesnt so we just do it amongst ourselves. for the sake of the debate, i decided to reamain that god was all powerful, and borrow from YOUR side, just because it was what you wanted. dont twist my words just because it aides you in decrediting me. all that i say is in the literal part of my mind. and note the use of maybe when i say "maybe god isnt all powerful...". that continues into your point. regardless, the bible is mostly fact and partly propaganda.

 

 

You don't get it, do you? God allowed rebellion because for some reason he wanted to. Perhaps it entertained him to watch Lucifer's futile attempts. Perhaps it would hurt his ego too much to simply kill Lucifer before he acted. Who knows, but lack of power is not the reason.

 

And I would suggest you read my posts. There are no randoms. If you flip a coin, its outcome is already decided based on the way God chose to create the universe. You have the illusion of randomness, but God already knows the answers. Despite our illusions, we are merely following his script precisely.

 

the sad truth is that there are randoms. there are anomalys, fractions, infinity, even only on a small basis. you flip a coin-i catch and reflip the coin before the outcome is seen-the outcome is therefore changed. at the same time, under the same choice, the same people(being you and i) flip a coin-i dont catch the coin-we see the outcome. if i hadnt caught the coin, then the outcome would be as it was in the same situation that just happened at the same time. the X-factors occur just the same for every conceivable action that occurs. therefore, all things that happen happen without our perception of it on all levels. we only see one level, level K for this example, but level K is the same throughout all levels, with the same actions and different reactions. if there werent any randoms, irrational numbers wouldnt exist-- true, right? --there would be no Pi, no square roots, no infinity...nothing of the sort

 

 

Nope, its pessimistic because you would become depressed and drained and shocked at hearing and questioning your free will. it would be like finding out you were a slave after years of assumed freedom.

 

Translation: the truth is less important than what we think about it. If the truth is depressing, too bad. Be depressed.

 

thats only assuming that that is the truth. in the other versions of level K, that might be a false fact. to borrow an even more famous phrase, "what is the matrix? control". you wouldnt want to find yourself stripped of something that you know and experiance, your "freedom" most of all, and then proceed to a world where it doesnt exist. people will actually fight for freedom if they are stripped from it--they will kill untill death for their freedom (boy where is a thesaurus when you need it!). assuming that "Too bad. Be depressed" line came from you, you are in need of your freedom most of all.