Morality of God

[Peregrine]

if i may borrow from starship troopers "force is the driving method to resolve conflict." if the coflict is gone, no worries. plus, all you have to do is say that you want forgiveness for your crimes. on earth, no such forgiveness ever occurs. it's also alot easier to ask forgiveness than permission. of course god would say no if you asked to kill all of his creations. but he has no trouble forgivving you. its the people that DONT repent that go to hell.

 

That isn't justice. Part of justice is that the consequences of actions are absolute law, and all cases are treated equally. Bribing the judge shouldn't have any effect on the punishment. Which is exactly what God does... if you satisfy his ego enough, you get forgiven.

 

the one issue that comes up with that statement can be summed up in a single word: why? why did god make things this way? why do things change from their orriginal outcome? why is god ever changing?

 

God has no choice. If God does not know the outcome, no matter how small or remote in time, of every action he chooses (creation for example), then he is no longer all knowing. This is not a conscious choice of God, it is a consequence of his form of existence.

 

yes, i do. god invented these laws of physics, and therefore must practice such. and the entropy knot is what binds the entropy before it unravvels, destroying the universe. the entropy must exist beforehand, and is only being held before a parodox, such as "god", destroys the knot and unravvels the entropy at which point the entire universe spirals down into oblivion.

 

What??? There is no "entropy knot" that binds entropy. Entropy isn't even an object! It's a measurement of the disorder in a system. What you're talking about is like saying there's an "inch knot" that holds all the inches until they are needed.

 

And the universe isn't destroyed by entropy! Where did you get that idea from? Its contents might be changed into a different (and useless to humanity) form, but the universe itself is unharmed by an increase in entropy.

 

why would god destroy the entire universe? it doesnt make sense. god would have to get really frustrated at this project that he calls whatever and that we call "The Universe". he would have such a sense of futillity that he destroys it just because he is a mad god, no other reason

 

Are you reading my arguments or are you just making up stuff to argue against? Where did I say that God would destroy the universe? If I understand which part of my arguments you are refering to correctly, I argued the exact opposite! Entropy and the destruction of the universe are entirely separate concepts.

 

Though if God wanted to destroy the universe, he could do so. I wouldn't be suprised, considering his proven sadism/insanity.

 

using the definition of entropy, ill restate it:

--the dissorder in the closed system would be so large that we would cease to exist because a tear would be made in the fabric of space time. at which point we would not exist, nor would time, nor space, only god assuming that he is all powerful. and furthermore, god would probably cease to exist as well, since i believe that he is not all powerful, for, in order to be able to do so, he would have to have the all seeing power into the future, creating the tear and realising the entropy, which thusly explains how it increases because the process is repeated exponentially.

 

Don't come back until you've learned some basic science. An increase in entropy will not create a tear in space time. At least not by any sane and accepted scientific theory.

 

as a rule, i dont view any side as losing, only as existing, being viewed, stated, and staying to debate further points

 

Translation: you won't concede defeat no matter how badly your arguments fail. Why are you even debating if you state from the beginning that you will not accept loss?

 

for the sake of the debate, i decided to reamain that god was all powerful, and borrow from YOUR side, just because it was what you wanted. dont twist my words just because it aides you in decrediting me. all that i say is in the literal part of my mind. and note the use of maybe when i say "maybe god isnt all powerful...". that continues into your point. regardless, the bible is mostly fact and partly propaganda.

 

It's an off topic argument that you never should have brought into this debate. If you want to discuss the accuracy of the bible, feel free to do so elsewhere. But in this debate, the initial statements are unarguable (for very good reasons listed elsewhere).

 

the sad truth is that there are randoms. there are anomalys, fractions, infinity, even only on a small basis. you flip a coin-i catch and reflip the coin before the outcome is seen-the outcome is therefore changed. at the same time, under the same choice, the same people(being you and i) flip a coin-i dont catch the coin-we see the outcome. if i hadnt caught the coin, then the outcome would be as it was in the same situation that just happened at the same time.

 

Would you please read my argument before you post replies to it! We do not know the outcome. But God does, and no matter how ignorant we are, God knows and planned everything. As soon as God decided how to create the universe, God knew that you would catch the coin, and what its result would be.

 

the X-factors occur just the same for every conceivable action that occurs. therefore, all things that happen happen without our perception of it on all levels. we only see one level, level K for this example, but level K is the same throughout all levels, with the same actions and different reactions. if there werent any randoms, irrational numbers wouldnt exist-- true, right? --there would be no Pi, no square roots, no infinity...nothing of the sort

 

You don't get it. Human knowledge and God's knowledge are entirely different things. We might not know something, and it might appear random to us, but it is not to God. God knows all of these things, and planned them to happen exactly as they do.

 

thats only assuming that that is the truth. in the other versions of level K, that might be a false fact. to borrow an even more famous phrase, "what is the matrix? control". you wouldnt want to find yourself stripped of something that you know and experiance, your "freedom" most of all, and then proceed to a world where it doesnt exist. people will actually fight for freedom if they are stripped from it--they will kill untill death for their freedom (boy where is a thesaurus when you need it!). assuming that "Too bad. Be depressed" line came from you, you are in need of your freedom most of all.

 

Translation: if the truth is unpleasant, look for a way, no matter how unreasonable, that it might not be the truth.

[Darnoc]

Free will is when you can choose between different possibilities without being forced to choose a certain possibility or influenced by any knowlegde of what will happen.

 

Now god is allknowing. He knows from the beginning that I will choose to do something. He knows. Not I do know. Because only he knows, my decision isn't influenced by this knowlegde of his. He knows that in this certain circumstance, time, place and situation I will choose this certain possibility. But this knowlegde of god isn't relevant at all, as long as I don't know what he knows. From the point when he tells me what I will do, my free will is influenced and ceases to exist.

 

One of the basic laws of psychohistory (the science invented by Isaac Asimov, which tries to find the laws of history) is that the group of people which was calculated doesn't learn of the results. When I calculate with the laws of psychohistory that there will be racial uprisings in the USA by the year 2010 (it was calculated that every second generation will have heavy racial uprisings) this will only happen as long as I don't tell the group involved (the ethnic minorites in the USA). From the point they know that in the year 2010 there will be heavy uprisings, the calculations aren't accurate anymore. The free will of the group involved was influenced by the knowlegde given to them. Either they try to force those uprisings or try to prevent them. Either way, it won't happen anymore as it was predicted by the calculations.

 

Now with god it works similar, but more complex. When he would tell me that I would put sugar in my tea the next moment, my free will is influenced by his knowlegde. I would probably no longer put sugar into the tea just to prove that he doesn't know anything. Of course this leads to a paradox, because god knows everything this means that he also knew that I wouldn't put the sugar anymore into the tea, what means that he lied, what is impossible, because god can not lie.

 

So god has no other choice than to hide this knowlegde from us, or our decisions will be influenced. To make it simple: When he would tell us what would happen exaclty then our free will ceases to exist. As long as we do not know what will happen, our free will still exists. That is why all those prophecies are so unclear, so that we can't really figure them out until the prophecized event happens. Because when we would know what is meant by those prophecies, our free will is influenced and would cease to exist. But because it is not clear and unsure, our free will still exists.

 

God knows 100% that I will choose a certain possibility the next moment. But when someone knows what will happen this doesn't take away your free will. You could still choose otherwise. But you won't. And not because god choose that you won't. You won't choose any other possibility, because you were in the exact situation, circumstance, time and place where you would choose this possibility. Of course god created these circumstances, so he influenced you passivly (without your knowlegde) into this one possibility. And as long as god doesn't tell you what you will choose, your free will does still exist.

 

To make it simple:

 

Knowlegde of what will happen doesn't make free will unexistant, only when the subject of these actions knows of this, the free will of the subject ceases to exist, because now the decisions of this subject is influenced by this knowlegde of the future. So until god tells you exactly what will happen, you still have a free will.

[Malchik]

Darnoc, I can see what you are saying but how is it relevant? We are not talking of the choices we make but the retribution god seeks for what he knows perfectly well from the moment of creation we are going to do. He created me as he intended me to be. I do as he planned, as you rightly point out, whether I know it or not. To be punished in any way for behaving as I was created to behave is unjustifiable. As I have proved in an earlier post if he is all-merciful and loving I will go to heaven whatever I do. If he doesn't exist it doesn't matter what I do. And if he exists but is not all-merciful and we have to go by the bible (as requested in this thread) he is so sadistic nothing I can do will get me into heaven. At the end of the day I'll get the same treatment as everyone else whether I believe in him, profess to believe in him, actively protest against him or whatever.

 

As a matter of interest, as those people who do not believe were created by him not to believe. What would you consider a justifiable outcome for them?

[Peregrine]

READ MY (_#@$_#@$_ ARGUMENTS!

 

Everything you do is a consequence of how the universe was created. Out of all the universes God could create, he chose this one. He had full knowledge of every result he would produce. Therefore he knows every decision you will make. He picked which one you will "choose" when he decided to create a universe in which you do so.

 

One of the basic laws of psychohistory (the science invented by Isaac Asimov, which tries to find the laws of history) is that the group of people which was calculated doesn't learn of the results. When I calculate with the laws of psychohistory that there will be racial uprisings in the USA by the year 2010 (it was calculated that every second generation will have heavy racial uprisings) this will only happen as long as I don't tell the group involved (the ethnic minorites in the USA). From the point they know that in the year 2010 there will be heavy uprisings, the calculations aren't accurate anymore. The free will of the group involved was influenced by the knowlegde given to them. Either they try to force those uprisings or try to prevent them. Either way, it won't happen anymore as it was predicted by the calculations.

 

 

Ugh, are you seriously trying to argue that a fictional science is valid at all? And you can't even get it right! Psychohistory calculated the inevitable fall of the Empire. Telling people and planning to avoid it did nothing to prevent the predicted event.

 

Now, here's why it's not relevant:

 

1) God created this universe. Unarguable fact.

 

2) God knew everything that would happen in his universe, no matter how apparently random or distand in time. Consequence of being omniscient.

 

3) God can create any universe he wants as easily as any other. Consequence of being omnipotent.

 

4) God picked this universe over all others. He knew everything that would happen, and decided that this is what he wanted. So he created the universe that would become what we have today. Everywhere we thing we have free will, our decisions have already been made from the moment God picked which universe to create.

 

By your example, God knows whether the riots will happen. But unlike your predictions, God's are inevitable. The only way to stop the riots would be for God to have created the universe in a way that they do not happen.

 

Now with god it works similar, but more complex. When he would tell me that I would put sugar in my tea the next moment, my free will is influenced by his knowlegde. I would probably no longer put sugar into the tea just to prove that he doesn't know anything. Of course this leads to a paradox, because god knows everything this means that he also knew that I wouldn't put the sugar anymore into the tea, what means that he lied, what is impossible, because god can not lie.

 

You think you could choose to do that. But the only way you can is if God created the universe in a way that you do so.

 

And God is omnipotent. God can lie.

[Darnoc]

Ugh, are you seriously trying to argue that a fictional science is valid at all? And you can't even get it right! Psychohistory calculated the inevitable fall of the Empire. Telling people and planning to avoid it did nothing to prevent the predicted event.

 

Psychohistory isn't anymore a fictional science. It may not exist under this name, but elements of psychohistory are used in history, geography, economics and many other fields. What I said about racial riots is an existing calculation. If you are intersted in knowing more, read "Introduction to Psychohistory" by Micheal F. Flynn, "Mathematics in the Field of History" by Richard Bellman, "The Cultural Evolution of Civilizations" by Kent Flannery, "The Fates of Nations: A Biological Theory of History" by Paul Colinvaux, "Transformations: Mathematical Approaches to Cultural Change" by Colin Renfrew & Kenneth Cooke. There are a lot more, if you are interested, I can give you more sources.

 

And what I told you about riots who will occur in 2010 in the USA can be found in "Introduction to Psychohistory" by Micheal F. Flynn.

 

 

Now, here's why it's not relevant:

 

1) God created this universe. Unarguable fact.

 

2) God knew everything that would happen in his universe, no matter how apparently random or distand in time. Consequence of being omniscient.

 

3) God can create any universe he wants as easily as any other. Consequence of being omnipotent.

 

4) God picked this universe over all others. He knew everything that would happen, and decided that this is what he wanted. So he created the universe that would become what we have today. Everywhere we thing we have free will, our decisions have already been made from the moment God picked which universe to create.

 

By your example, God knows whether the riots will happen. But unlike your predictions, God's are inevitable. The only way to stop the riots would be for God to have created the universe in a way that they do not happen.

 

 

God's decision are inevitable because god is a mathematical genious to an amount which we will never reach. He knows all the variables. If you know a little about Chaos Theory (science of complex systems) you must admire the work god has done. This universe is the most complex system existing. God knows every variable and in his thoughts even the number of hairs on your head are included. Because he knows every variable, his predictions are inevitable. He started this complex system when he created it and made it according to a plan in which every variable (even the most little one) was included, so that everything would go the way he planned it to happen. His predictions are absolutely accurate. You have a free will (only to a certain amount, as I will show), but god knows what you will choose because he knows even the most little variable in this complex system and how it will influence your decisions.

 

Let's take my example of tea and sugar. There are a lot of possibilites what I can do with my tea. But I will put sugar into it, because of a complex sets of variables that all play together and that we will never be able to understand. I have a choice but god knows what I will choose in the end. He planned the universe in such a way that it will come down to this one choice I will make in the end. In god's "calculations" even the amount of hairs on my head, the amount of viruses and bacterias in my body are included. Because he knows every variable his predictions are 100% accurate and inevitable. We can't fully understand such an accuracy, it is way beyond our understanding and we will probably never be able to plan in the way god plans. There are so many variables influencing everything that is happening, every decision we make. Perhaps when only one cell in my body is destroyed, this will influence a decision I make.

 

So if we knew every variable in this universe and how they work together, we could in fact predict god's plan and we would know exactly what will happen. When our universe is a complex set of variables which fit together and influence the whole picture, it wouldn't even matter if god existed. Every decision we would make would be influenced by a complex set of variables. So perhaps free will doesn't exist at all, even when god doesn't exist. Everything is predictable to 100% accuracy, if we would know all the variables.

 

When everything is predictable when we would know all the variables and how they work together, free will never existed. Even when god himself doesn't exist, we still wouldn't have a free will, because everything is determined by this complex system called "the universe" and the variables in it. So we should perhaps be grateful that we at least have an illusion of free will. Because god doesn't show us all the variables and the way they work together (and as long as we don't discover them ourselves) we still possess a free will (to the amount it is possible). Complete free will is never possible, because everything is influenced by something. Complete free will could only exist in a place where there is no influence what so ever. Because this isn't the case (no matter if god exists or not), free will is only possible to a certain amount.

 

If we knew all the variables we wouldn't be able to make any choice what so ever because every choice is determined by all those variables. So as long as we don't know all those existing variables, we still have free will to a certain amount. Complete free will is an illusion. And it doesn't matter if god exists or if he doesn't. Our universe is still a super-complex system with an indefinite numbers of variables working together to form a complex pattern. But as long we don't know every variable we still have a free will to a certain amount.

 

I was wrong, but you also Peregrin. Free will doesn't exist, it never existed and it will never exist. At least complete free will. If god exists, he is the master behind this complex system called universe. If he doesn't exist, our universe is a complex system which runs by itself, which works without a master who is in controll, a perpetuum mobile. And because a perputuum mobile is not possible (at least with our knowledge) I don't believe that god doesn't exist.

[ThetaOrionis01]

Well, if free will does not exist, it is not possible for anyone to make the choice to sin. Therefore, without free will, 'sin' cannot exist either. Therefore, god's punishment of those regarded as sinners is immoral, cruel and sadistic.

 

 

Which I believe has been the point of this debate all along.

 

 

Just one thing I'd like to point out:

 

Because he knows every variable, his predictions are inevitable. He started this complex system when he created it and made it according to a plan in which every variable (even the most little one) was included, so that everything would go the way he planned it to happen. His predictions are absolutely accurate.

 

God doesn't make predictions. He knows what will happen. And it is because of this knowledge, rather than prediction, that free will ceases to exist.

 

 

Now, whether it is actually possible to know every single variable in this universe is not part of this debate, but if you'd like to discuss this further, please start a new thread.

[Darnoc]

@Theta: I don't have to start a new Thread because of this. The bible states that god knows everything, so he knows every variable in this universe and has planned it this way that everything is going to happen according to his plan, which he made before he created this world. Because Time and space don't exist for him, he can make such a complex plan and create a universe with his knowledge of all variables in which everything must happen as he has planned it. If we knew every variable we could plan our future ourselves.

[ThetaOrionis01]

Darnoc - it is only for the purpose of this debate that the bible is assumed to be a true and accurate record by all participants.

 

And this debate is about the morality of god, not about whether it is possible for him to be all-knowing.

[Malchik]

As a matter of interest, as those people who do not believe were created by him not to believe. What would you consider a justifiable outcome for them?

Darnoc, perhaps you missed my question. It is not perhaps immediately about the morality of god but it asks for an opinion of what you consider fair and reasonable. And I would prefer an answer to a politician's avoidance of the issue.

[eldowan]

The bible states that god knows everything, so he knows every variable in this universe and has planned it this way that everything is going to happen according to his plan, which he made before he created this world. Because Time and space don't exist for him, he can make such a complex plan and create a universe with his knowledge of all variables in which everything must happen as he has planned it.

 

This means that you concede the possibility of free will.

...everything must happen as he has planned it.

There is no chance anything else can happen, and as a consequence, since no alternative can come to pass, there is no freedom to make a choice that cannot happen. Because you make this statement in more than one post, I assume that you believe it, and as such you must concede that point.

 

Since you concede that freedom, at least in this debate is null and void, than what do you have to say about the morality of purgatory and hell?

 

To teach your child to do some action, say to play in the mud after it rains, and then punish them for doing that in their sunday finest, is not moraly good.

 

Is this any different that what god is doing?