Peregrine Posted February 10, 2004 Author Share Posted February 10, 2004 Yes but the idea of there being no such thing as free will is just that, and idea or Quote theory. There is also the idea that God does not know the outcome of every single event in the history of the universe. Leading us down another 5 pages of debate, ultimately getting us nowhere.... but hey. But if God does not know everything, God is not omniscient. That contradicts the definition of God being used in this debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted February 10, 2004 Share Posted February 10, 2004 OK, let me make it clear: It states in the bible that a. god is allknowing and b. that god has created us with a free will. Now you say that it is a paradoxon when a. and b. are true at the same time. It is not possible. So this leads to the following conclusions: 1. You are right. This leaves us the following possibilities: 1.1 God lied This is again a paradoxon. The being god is defined by the following: - He is everywhere at the same time- He possess all powers- He knows everything- He is absolute holy- He is absolute good- Everything is possible for him (there are no limits for him)- He is perfect If any of these is no longer true, he is not god (by the way: This means if god is unmoral, he is not god anymore). So therefore, when he lies, he is no longer holy and good, so he is no longer perfect, so he is no longer god. This leads to a next paradoxon: If we assume that everything written in the bible is true, then god must be god. So if we say that god is not god, the bible is no longer true and our whole discussion is in vain. 1.2 You are right, but you missunderstood the biblical text Meaning that you didn't understand the bible correctly and god never really stated that a. and b. does exist at the same time. But this can not be, because 1) we assume that what is written in the bible really happened and 2) therefore god must have lied and this leads to our former paradoxon. 2. You are wrong This means, a. and b. can exist at the same time, but we do not understand how this can work. It is above our understanding. Since the other conclusions are leading to a paradoxon, this one must be the true one (assuming that everything written in the bible is true and that god therefore exists). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hundinman Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Peregrine said: Quote @ everyone.... This thread is getting a little personal for everyone. Calm it down. When push comes to shove, it's all about what YOU choose to believe in. When push comes to shove it's all about what is the truth. Personal opinions are a distant second to reality. Quote @ hypocrites....do not state something to be true, and then go around and change your views. (I think I just recited the definition of hipocrasy...) Either state something to be true and expand on it, or keep it shut and research a little more. (Yes, I am trying to hinder your freedom of speech....for your own good.) Who are you refering to? I have argued the same point since this debate started. Quote This is making assumptions about God. What assumption, that God has an ego problem? According to the rules of this debate, we can judge God. I judge him as having an ego problem. Quote This is exactly what he has done, though, in the Bible. Furthermore, God does not obey our perspective, rather, we obey His. (Given my beliefs and what the Bible says, your beliefs don't count on this statement, because you do not believe in God.) <------Let me elaborate what I just said...I said that since you do not believe in God, you, then, cannot tell me that God obeys my perspective, because God has already given me a perspective of Him through the Bible. Furthermore, the Bible says that we were created in the image of God, ergo, we obey His perspectives of Love/Hate, Compassion/Vengeance, etc. Then if we share the same perspective, we should act and be judged by it. God is either obeying a completely different perspective than us or he is immoral. Take your pick. Quote Please refrain from attacks relating to the style of my arguments. Please refrain from using flawed logic and poor arguments. Quote He CAN abandon them at will, but he DIDN'T. There is a difference in being able to do something and actually doing it! Nothing more to say here, your argument is absolutely relative on whether or not God has abandoned His characteristics. Concession accepted. God chooses to act as he does. Therefore "God has no choice, so he can not be judged for it" is not a valid explanation. God is evil. Quote Absolutely wrong. The Bible tells us that God is compassionate. The bible tells us that God says he is compassionate. His actions say otherwise. Quote At this point you are not definitely sentenced to Hell, because you have free will. And presently, because you have free will, you are choosing to sentence yourself to hell. Do you even read my arguments before you reply with your religious propaganda? We do not have free will. If I later choose too abandon my atheistic beliefs, that decision had been made by God as soon as he decided how he would create the universe. If I keep them, the same thing is true. The free will I think I have is just an illusion. Quote As I said before, the people who are going to hell are not there because mean ol' God wants to be genocidal, but because they choose to go to hell because they believe they don't have a choice. We don't have a choice. Either reply to my "there is no free will" argument with why we do have some, or concede that part of the debate. Quote Being that I am only human, I cannot explain why we can still have free will, and God can still be all-knowing. But I'm sure He has an answer, and I am sure that's one of the questions I'll ask Him when I am dead. The answer is simple. You don't have any free will. You have the illusion of free will. Quote You are not all-knowing, so you do not know what is inside the hearts of other people. You can't trick God to get into heaven, so by repenting, it comes straight from the heart. In my opinion, humans do not need to judge others, because God is the judge of all, and the Bible says that by what measure you judge others, you too, shall be judged by that same measure. So if I tortured and murdered a thousand people you would say I shouldn't be punished by the laws of man? Quote Answer this question please: If God is so evil, why then, is there even a heaven? Because God is not entirely evil. He shows mercy towards those who satisfy his ego enough. Of course I question the value of heaven... since it is God's domain, it must incorporate God's system of justice... therefore I doubt heaven is as pleasant as you might think (by our human standards). =============================== Quote I am sure that "supply and demand" would cut the cost of a single 1k diamond to a billionth of what it is now. So yes, the diamond IS defined by the other rocks, even though it's properties would still be quite notable. Diamonds are valued for more than their dollar cost. A diamond is no less beautiful if it is common. A diamond's material properties are no less useful if they are easily obtained. Quote Quote The situation is that God appears in front of you today and hands you the newly written commandment: Thou shalt sacrifice a child in my name every week. Thou shalt kill it in the most painful way possible, so that its screams may properly honor me. This command is good, holy, and just. This is God's word. In seeing this commandment, it would make the Bible void, and I would not be a Christian. Since "god" has previously stated that "Thou shalt not murder", he has directly contradicted Himself, making himself not true to His word, and a hipocrite. But since I have not found any hypocritical things in the Bible so far, I will not cease to believe. Concession accepted, thank you for trying to debate. Read my posts next time before you argue against them. But fine, if it will make you happy, God has also added this commandment to the bible. Call it a revised printing. God has now redefined Christianity. God is omnipotent, he can do that. And according to your side, it isn't murder if God/his believers do the killing for justified reasons. And God has now declared that it is justified and right. Now stop dodging the question. Answer yes or no, or concede the debate. Quote Very wrong of you to say that. Since you do not believe in God, you, then, have free will don't you? And if you DO believe in God, then isn't the your FAITH based on the acceptance that God has given you free will, and that He has somehow maintained His knowledge of everything AND His justification of everything? Of course I believe in free will, since God doesn't exist. But for purposes of this debate, God does exist. If that condition is unarguable, we have no free will. Quote The reason I said faith in caps was because faith directly relates to the Bible. That is WHY they call it faith, because you must take it on FAITH that God is not evil or cruel. Because you can't take it on anything else. By any sane defintion, God is a barbaric murderer. All you have to counter that are God's lying words. I would like to see rules that clearly state judging God is ok. Quote What assumption, that God has an ego problem? According to the rules of this debate, we can judge God. I judge him as having an ego problem. Quote Please refrain from using flawed logic and poor arguments. I know it wasn't directed at me but, the arguments are only flawed and poor by your judgement. To the arguer, they may be good points. Prove the arguments flawed and poor by counterstriking them, don't just say that they are, please. Quote Do you even read my arguments before you reply with your religious propaganda? We do not have free will. If I later choose too abandon my atheistic beliefs, that decision had been made by God as soon as he decided how he would create the universe. If I keep them, the same thing is true. The free will I think I have is just an illusion. You can change your beliefs anytime and become a Christian or any other religion. You can still go to heaven. People go to hell, either because they worship the Devil (satan) or think they have no choice, like you, and it is too late once they die. Quote So if I tortured and murdered a thousand people you would say I shouldn't be punished by the laws of man? Judging people is different than torturing them. Judging people is like saying, "That person over there is really stupid and from what I see he is gay". This is only an example and that would be judging a person. If you judge people by their looks, beliefs, or any other reason, you will too be judged by God in the same way. Quote Of course I question the value of heaven... since it is God's domain, it must incorporate God's system of justice... therefore I doubt heaven is as pleasant as you might think (by our human standards). Of course. Heaven will not satisfy our human desires. Greed, selfishness, hate. All these are flaws of man. you get something and want more. When Christians die and go to heaven, our bodies become immoral. We will be perfect and wiil lack all traits that flaw man. Heaven is the greatest thing in existence. Quote And according to your side, it isn't murder if God/his believers do the killing for justified reasons. And God has now declared that it is justified and right. If God says it is ok, then there is no problem of murder in our way. off to sacrifice my child for the week. (sarcasm :bleh: ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 @ Darnoc: or 3. Given that it is not possible for a and b to be true at the same time, either the bible is inaccurate or there is no god. or 4. You cannot disprove my argument with anything approaching logic, so you have to resort to sophistry :P Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ThetaOrionis01 Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 hundinman said: Of course. Heaven will not satisfy our human desires. Greed, selfishness, hate. All these are flaws of man. you get something and want more. When Christians die and go to heaven, our bodies become immoral. We will be perfect and wiil lack all traits that flaw man. Heaven is the greatest thing in existence. :blink: Some big orgy going on in heaven???? o.0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hundinman Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 cut the crap. where did that idea come from? totally irrelevant and stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted February 11, 2004 Author Share Posted February 11, 2004 Your own words. Read what you wrote. And grow a sense of humor while you're at it. Besides, if there's no orgy in heaven, is it really heaven? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Breton Thief Oriana Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 well, there is an orgy in hell. you have a keg on one arm and a girl on the other. however, the keg has a hole in it and the girl doesnt. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hundinman Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 Breton Thief Oriana said: well, there is an orgy in hell. you have a keg on one arm and a girl on the other. however, the keg has a hole in it and the girl doesnt. :lol: now that was funny. it is good to get a laugh once in a while. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darnoc Posted February 11, 2004 Share Posted February 11, 2004 @Theta Orionis: Yes, these would be the other conclusions. But in this discussion, we assume that god exists and that what is written in the bible is true, so your third point is useless in this discussion. When we wouldn't have these two rules in our discussion, you would be right in saying that also the possibility of god's non-existence would be a correct one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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