Morality of God

[ThetaOrionis01]

Okay then, when was the last time God caused whole sale genocide, when was the last time he said, okay kill off all the idolaters, they worship another god.

 

Irrelevant. If the bible is true, he committed these crimes. If it is not true, then belief in god is based upon an untruth.

However, let us assume that god did in fact have a change of heart, or saw the error of his ways. In that case he made mistakes, and is therefore not perfect and all-knowing. Thus he is not god.

 

 

You state he is a God that rules by force, is sadistic and a genocidal killer. You also forget that every culture uses God as an excuse to commit terrible crimes

 

Didn't he create us in his image?

 

 

If he was interested in complete genocide, murdering and power abuse, he'd of struck you down dead before you wrote the first words of your posts. The fact that he has not kill all the atheists etc. that deny him and spit in his face shows that he is not as evil as you state, or as sadistical.

 

Or perhaps he just doesn't exist :D

 

However, since for the sake of this argument we must postulate that he does exist, and that he is all-knowing and all-powerful, then he knew before we were even born that we would have this debate. By creating us he left us no choice but to follow our pre-determined path and have this debate.

Indeed, the very fact that we are having this debate indicates that god allows us to judge him - since he is all-knowing he knew that this would happen. Since he is all-powerful, he created us to judge him.

We have no choice in this matter - by creating us in the full knowledge of every choice we would ever make, god predetermined our lives for us. If we are indeed all the creations of an omniscient and omnipotent god we cannot have free will, even if we are deluding ourselves that we are free to make our choices. Our choices were determined for us when we were created; god, being omniscient, knew all along what would happen.

 

Now, if god is god, ie all-powerful and all-knowing, he created atheists, and those who would question and judge him, in the full knowledge that this would inevitably happen. I can think of several reasons why he might do such a thing - perhaps he has a twisted sense of humour we cannot fathom, perhaps he is bored and we are but providing entertainment, or he might have a purpose for all those who question him and his existence.

 

And who can say that this purpose is not stimulating independent thought and questioning his every word so that by denying his very existence we may develop free will?

[Peregrine]

Yes, you may state this but you an inferior being are declaring what that higher law is, you are being your own God by stating that there is a higher law to which you answer and not to God. But you are creating the standards by which that law applies to everybody, thus the law is created by you ... not a higher power or higher purpose. There has to be a constant for all equations, even multivariable calculus, God is the constant.

 

Then there are two cases here:

 

1) Our morality is given to us by God. We do not have free will, and God violates his own laws. God is a hypocrite.

 

2) Our morality is created of our own free will. God is no longer all powerful. We as humans have the right, even the duty to judge God. We have outgrown God's barbaric system of "justice."

 

God has to make decisions as much as you do, but his choices are always best for the individual.

 

Except when he sentences them to eternal suffering for "crimes" that are minor by the definition of any civilized society. God's actions are right by his definition alone, a definition which is morally wrong.

 

He gives us a time of mercy upon the earth were we reign as the dominant species. You don't see any other species rising up to attack our position.

 

What a kind God... he hasn't destroyed us yet. Did you ever think that maybe a morally correct God wouldn't even think of destroying us? The fact that this is even an issue is a sign of God's flaws!

 

And these are not threats Peregrine, they are consequences ... as much as I have to take the responsibility of my actions so do others. If I kill someone, murder them in there sleep for sadistic pleasure. I choose to do so, HOWEVER, I face the consequence of my own death, period of punishment etc. by the laws of man, and further by the laws of God.

 

As it should be. But God's punishments are far out of proportion to the seriousness of the crime. That's no longer justice, it's simple evil.

 

Yet god gives us a time of mercy, even a murderer can realize his crimes and truly feel sorry for them. What about those murders that happen in a moment of passion or emotion and the murderer can't forgive themselves. We tone this down and call it manslaughter sometimes, but they deliberately killed someone in a moment of intense emotion. They have the choice do something, but in the end they must live with the consequences.

 

So God is a judge that can be bribed. Add corruption to the list of his crimes.

 

Obviously your definition of free-will will never exist because the laws of man state consequences through there judicial system for making choices that destroy the construction of society. Thus, free-will is chaotic. Meaning that for it to exist, we must lose all moral conscience and must become totally leaderless. No laws must exist, because they mete out the dos and don'ts of society and list the consequences for doing so. Your "threatened" by your own higher law, your higher law destroys the very free-will you talk about because your definition of free-will can not exist while a law stands that claims that something is right or wrong, deserving of punishment or not. Your arguement is flawed.

 

Of course free will is just an abstract idea. But humanity's system comes far closer to this ideal than God's.

 

As for the direct intervention of God, when was the last time he struck down a serial killer dead, a rapist dead, you dead for stealing something here or there or coveting something belonging to someone else. As for God chosing sides, he doesn't man does and God does everything but force mankind to choice HIS side. There is obediance and disobediance, you can only do one or the other. God does everything possible to influence you towards obediance and towards doing what is right, but the choice is ultimately yours.

 

Obviously not recently, since the last additions to the bible are ancient history. But looking at those examples, God involves himself when free will doesn't produce the desired result. Whether by his own actions, or by ordering people to do it for him, he is still responsible for it.

 

God create man, historical fact by use of the bible, its a recorded action. Thus he created how we think, reason and gather socially. Mankind therefore made civilization upon the principles of God, with the inevitable corruption of disobediance. Meaning quite frankly, that God created mankinds ability to create civilized societies. Your perception of the world comes from your God created mind, God created how you think, not what you think about but how. How we chunk information and store it, how we reason and postulate and created our moral conscience. He breathed into us, he made us eternal like him, giving us the same moral, emotion, spiritual and physical elements of God, but we have fallen. We are no longer in the image of God, we are fell creations.

 

Again, two cases:

 

1) God created us to be exactly what we are today. We do not have free will. God is a sadistic criminal who creates inevitable evil and then punishes it with his "justice." A God that could want this situation is evil.

 

2) We have free will. Our world as it exists now is our own creation. We have outgrown God's barbaric "justice" and now recognize a higher law.

 

He doesn't chose sides, man does ... they either chose to obey him or not.

 

Except when he helps one side of a human conflict. By any resonable interpertation of the events in the bible, God chooses sides. Concession accepted, thank you for debating.

 

He does not deny man the choice to do so, but it states that disobediance is punished by death and obediance is rewarded with favor. Your looking at God like he was a man, he isn't HE is I AM THAT I AM. He became like man and died on a cross, but he is far above our comprehension. He does not deny you the choice of obediance and disobediance ... or we would never disobey.

 

"Free will" given with a gun to the head is not free will. God treats us like a child treats his toys. We are merely toys of God, to be destoyed or played with at his will.

 

This is all in the bible, why would man write this?

 

Because it grants the authors power. As living extensions of God's will, they gain more authority. Have you even looked at history? Can you honestly look at the massive power the church has had throughout history and still tell me you can't see why they would write the bible?

 

And in any case, concession accepted. The laws written in the bible had already existed long before the bible was written.

 

Thus our morality comes from somewhere else, as you call it a Higher Law, but we were created by God in his likeness, thus that morality only comes from him. So if God is evil and sadistic, then the higher law does not exist within us, because God does not answer to it and thus we have no morals, no sense of right or wrong and no laws. Thus without God being the higher law, we the creation have no link to it whatsoever, because God created the universe and everything in it. (Action of God defined in the bible historical).

 

Then God doesn't obey his own laws. God, by his actions, has made himself a barbaric murderer who no longer deserves his authority.

 

Death is the same yes, for us. We are human and our bodies are physical, we think in three dimensions and sometimes in four.

 

So then it's just fine for me to murder you. Murder is murder, no matter who does the killing. Murder by God is no less wrong than murder by man.

 

We however do not understand the spiritual realm. Our comprehension is trapped within our physical bodies and physical minds. Now if you kill a person, you remove them from the mercy of God, you send them into eternity. You destroy there chance of repentance and salvation and begin to condemn your own.

 

So I send you to God to be judged. Your point? So it's fine to murder someone as long as they have lived a good enough life to get into heaven?

 

Thou shalt not kill was a law given us by God, death is not for us to mete out as punishment, death is inevitable now since we have "all fallen short of the glory of god." and the punishment for sin is death [Romans]. It is God's position as our creator to judge our actions, he determines right and wrong ... he is God.

 

A law God himself fails to obey. God's "justice" is the "justice" of an insane dictator who rules by force alone. Sentencing everyone to death for being created inferior to God is a sign of God's massive ego problem.

 

He rules from love.

 

Wrong. God does not rule by anything even remotely resembling love. If God ruled by love, he would not have created a world with evil in it. He would not sentence people to eternal suffering for minor "crimes." He would not use mass murder as his only solution to problems. God rules by hate and destruction, not love.

 

he bore your punishment. He bore the consequence of his own creation's disobedience to him, so that his creation might not face the same consequence.

 

This is absolute insanity! A sane God would simply forgive us, but instead, he has to go through this elaborate act of creation and death to allow himself to forgive us.

 

All we have to do is to obey him again and he choses to forget the disobedience of our former lives. Those that don't make the chose to, live in their "free-will", doing what they want without God for the period of there lives, then they die. They made that choice in life. They are dead now. They died from a multitude of reasons from another human being slaughter them or an accident or disease. They have died.

 

Translation: God punishes us for actions that are the result of his own decisions when he created us. Instead of admitting his mistakes, God chooses vengeance and destruction. This is absolute evil.

 

If God ruled by force and not loved, nuclear armament would have vanished from the earth...

 

If God ruled by love, nuclear weapons would never have been created. If you love someone, you don't hand them the tools to destroy themselves.

 

...mankinds leaders would have been puppets of god's will...

 

Have you even looked at history? The dominance of God in human leadership is unquestionable.

 

...you couldn't take the name of God in vain...

 

Now you're getting desperate. If misuse of God's name is a sin, God has the biggest ego problem in history.

 

...murderers wouldn't haunt the shadows of our streets or rapists the windows of our homes.

 

If God ruled by love, this would not happen. If you love someone, you don't leave them to suffer from criminals. God only cares about us when he's demanding proper worship.

 

Society would be a perfect machine. So we have define that obviously God doesn't rule by force or we wouldn't be having this discussion and you wouldn't be putting him on trial.

 

If God didn't rule by force, we wouldn't be having this discussion because none of the evil acts which inspired it would have ever happened.

 

This simply sounds arrogant and gives little to the debate other that you feel yourself better than God, you state you're your own god.

 

It is simple fact. By any civilized law, I am far less evil than God.

 

Your just saying the very thing satan did in the garden of eden, I shall surely not die.

 

I do not question my own mortality. I know I will die, this is definite fact. What I do question is the seriously flawed morality of God.

 

This isn't anything new peregrine, people have said this for ages. You attack God because you can't stand for there to be one other than yourself. This higher law only is a replacement of God used to give you total control over your life without fear of consequence because you can justify your actions by comparing them to others and then condone the confrontation of God's actions against your own. The one that created the stars and flung them into space, the God that took a handful of dirt and breathed life into and create humankind. The God that died for our disobedience, the God that is what he is, the God that defined and is the highest law.

 

I attack God for his actions that are clearly evil by any civilized standard. God may have power, but power alone does not make justice. God may have defined our morality, but he does not live up to his own standards.

 

Evil: (dictionary definition of the noun)

1: The quality of being morally bad or wrong

2: That which causes harm, injury, misfortune

 

God fits definition 2 perfectly, and fits definition 1 by the standards of any civilized society. Concession accepted.

 

=====================================================

 

Okay then, when was the last time God caused whole sale genocide, when was the last time he said, okay kill off all the idolaters, they worship another god. You state he is a God that rules by force, is sadistic and a genocidal killer. You also forget that every culture uses God as an excuse to commit terrible crimes, why because then the blame is shifted to God for there own disobedience.

 

The fact that God's crimes (that we know of) were a long time ago does not make them any less evil. And the fact that people abuse his name does not change his evil either. In fact, it is pretty clear why people use his name as an excuse... because if God himself does evil things, then surely they should be able to as well.

 

In the bible, God shows himself to be a sadistic genocidal killer. God either does the killing himself, or orders others to do it for him when he is too much of a coward to do it himself. I'll repeat an example from earlier in the debate:

 

Hitler killed few (if any) people himself. Should we forgive all his crimes because he merely gave the orders?

 

He showed us he could wipe the slate when he flooded the earth WHEN the evil upon the earth had reached such a degree that the thoughts of men were evil continously.

 

Translation: if free will doesn't produce the results God wants, he removes it.

 

Again my arguement is based on the fact that you are judging God with the same moral system he created in you. If he was evil, such a system wouldn't exist, because you wouldn't need it. If he was interested in complete genocide, murdering and power abuse, he'd of struck you down dead before you wrote the first words of your posts. The fact that he has not kill all the atheists etc. that deny him and spit in his face shows that he is not as evil as you state, or as sadistical.

 

So God could be more evil than he is. Your point? A lesser evil is still evil, and still much worse than what any civilized system of morals demands.

 

The ten commandments were a law sent down to man, and there was more to it than the ten, that gave individuals rights. America, Canada, England, Most of Europe, Russia, Most Independent Nations of Africa, all have within there current legal system the same moral values as given us by God for among men.

 

Laws that existed long before the ten commandments were written.

 

God didn't kill Jesus, he knew that Jesus would die yes...

 

Doing nothing to stop murder when you have the ability to stop it makes you guilty. Perhaps not as guilty as whoever does the killing, but far from innocent.

 

...and he knew that it was the only way to save mankind yes.

 

Except for simply forgiving man. Which he did anyway, since the entire thing was planned by him. He just had to have a little more cruelty before he felt like changing his mind.

 

But he was not the one that nailed Jesus to the cross, he was not the one that whipped him, flogged him, spat upon him and hung him like already dead flesh upon a wooden cross beam. Someone earlier said we worship the cross, we use it to remember the horrendous death that was placed upon our savoir, the death that we rightly should of had but he took upon himself.

 

Because God apparently enjoys suffering. The death of Jesus was pointless insanity. The fact that God not only allowed it, but demanded it, proves that he is an insane murderer.

 

It is inevitable.

 

Inevitability does not make moral justice. God's evil may be unavoidable for us, but it is no less evil because of that.

 

 

 

================

 

 

Greywolf, now I ask you the same question as I asked Darnoc:

 

If it was God's will and new definition of morality, would you sacrifice innocent children, killing them in the most painful way possible, just to satisfy God's demand for death in his name?

[Greywolf]

I must fall out of this debate, not because I can not answer your questions or opinions but because I work 50+ hours a week, take 15 credit hours of class, have to find time to my homework and this pointless debate, pointless because neither side will ever concede to the other. So this will be my final post. I don't have the time to do this as its taking up my time is affecting my current schedule of events that dictate the health of my wellbeing, the scholastic achievment of my studies and the effectiveness of myself in the work environment. I simply don't have time to continue writing here, however, here is my final post.

 

Didn't he create us in his image?

 

Yes he did, however we have fallen from our original selves. God does not look like me, or you or peregrine. He is not the same. We were created in his image but we chose to disobey him and in turn have fallen from what we use to be, pure. We have taken on the mantle of physical death. The physical world, this earth is our realm. He gave us dominance. While we are yet living we have the choice to obey or disobey God. We have free-will, the ability to chose sides. God or no God, he can not allow disobedience to be left unpunished. If it were it would breed more disobedience and heaven would be like earth is today. Polluted, corrupted, evil ... take a look around, we have been poor caretakers of the earth have we not. We are no longer how God intend us, YET we might be. He has given us the path to that and we have the choice to walk it or not. You might say this is a dictatorship, in a way it is, but not in the manner as we see it as facism. God would have no choice but to judge all disobeyer's equally for crimes against him, if he let a minor show of disobediance go unpunished then there would be no need for obedience and he would be in essence uninvolved with us. He created companions, self thinking beings like himself. You so desire to look at God like he is human then look at that. He created a family, people he could talk with, love, cherish. But if they refuse him, if they disobey him then the cycle continues until everything is destroyed. World peace will never come as long as disobedience exists. I already here you proclaim "no free-will," we have a choice, obey or disobey. There is no purgatory, no middle ground. You can only serve one master not two. You can't obey god and disobey him. You have your choice.

 

so that by denying his very existence we may develop free will?

 

There it is again, overthrowing God so we don't have to answer to the consequences of our decisions. Satan's very temptation in the Garden of Eden, and humanity reached out and took it. The whole thing of eating the apple was simply because mankind was unsatisfied with obeying God, they wanted complete control, and they got complete control of the earth for a time. But they must die physically, upon death you enter the spiritual realm, God's realm where your no longer in control and eventually at the great judgement must be judge for your disobediance. It says that He will say, "depart from me you knew me not." God is interested in having a one on one relationship with you. That is why he created mankind. But how can he have a relationship with people that reject him, spit his name out as a daily curse and disobey the very moral system placed within us to protect us as individuals and us as a society.

 

 

Now, if god is god, ie all-powerful and all-knowing, he created atheists, and those who would question and judge him, in the full knowledge that this would inevitably happen.

 

God created Adam and Eve, and gave them the power to procreate. Even though he knew this discussion would happen, even though he knew aethiests were to be born he gave that power of creation of new individual eternal beings to us through the joining of a man and a woman. He knew every hair on your head at this very moment that you read this when he formed the world. But (and I don't know or possibly understand God's infinite knowledge) he decided that the world of evil was worth it for those that would follow him and join him in fellowship. He thought YOU were worth it. Fate and destiny is not set, we still have a choice. God only knows what we are going to chose, he doesn't force us to, or created us to chose certain areas. The only other being he directly had an influence on creating was the incarnation of Jesus Christ - and that Malchik had nothing to do with adultry, fornication or rape. She was willing to bear the Christ child when she stated the handmaiden of the lord awaits his command, she was willing to obey God and he caused her to bear child, a child that no man was his father, no angel, it was God in the flesh. Mary was a willing receptacle of the salvation of humanity. God knows what will happen, he knows what we will chose but that does not stop him from allowing us to live. We make the choices, they are not predetermined because we decided finally what we will do, that decision however is already known by God. But he does not just miscarriage you at birth. He gives you the chance and the mercy of God. He said himself, "it would be better if you tied a milestone around your next and be cast into the sea," than to harm a child. You don't understand God, I don't understand God.

 

Then there are two cases here:

 

1) Our morality is given to us by God. We do not have free will, and God violates his own laws. God is a hypocrite.

 

2) Our morality is created of our own free will. God is no longer all powerful. We as humans have the right, even the duty to judge God. We have outgrown God's barbaric system of "justice."

 

Morality was created by God, you have stated that the bible is historical. So mankind was created in God's image before the fall of man, mentally, physically, spiritually and emotionally. Our morale system comes from God, yet we still have the ability to chose to obey or disobey. Your confusing free-will with total control, we still have a choice, a voluntary ability to pick sides thus according to the dictionary free-will. It does not mean we have absolute control over life, we don't, mankind shakes in fear if the earth moves its bulk and his great constructions fall to the ground. We may be the dominant species on earth to take care of it, but we are destroying the earth and ourselves in the process. We are not in control, but we have the ability to make choices both obediant and disobediant to the will of God.

 

Free-will again, morality does not come from the ability to make choice, Free-will is not a noun describing an action. I am free-willed, I have the ability to choose what I do with my life. I can go out and massacre children, I can go out and raise children, my choice, I suffer the consequence be it my own death or their life. I could go out and say steal fifty dollars, or I can work for fifty dollars, I remove something of someone else putting them in a position of difficulty, I debase myself, or I earn money and I keep my humanity intact.

 

You state we have grown, tell me then why all your arguements are exactly the same as those stated in Genisis that was written thousands of years ago in a book even the corrupted church of God tried to wipe out of knowledge. The exact same arguements you place now all lead to the same conclusion, we are better than God, we are our own Gods. Nothing has changed except now we don't feel any shame like Adam and Eve, they knew what it was like before rebelling from God, they knew right from wrong before they chose to eat of the tree and they did it anyway because the consequence of there action was removed from there minds. They wanted this false "free-will" you talk about and we got it all right. Look around at the serial killers that go uncaught, look at the corruption of the world. If we obeyed God, all of us, then there would be no need to fight wars, no need to kill, no need to put up walls and security. It is those that have your sense of "free-will" that have undermined society for the centuries before and the few years to come.

 

As for God being a hypocrite, my above statement proves that your so called "free-will" is more barbaric more dangerous to humanity, more destructive than any of your petty accusations against God. Actions without consequence breeds further actions. Those actions that are destructive to the society without the consequences applied to the individual will escalate until society is no longer functionable and we have total "free-will" (as you call it) where we can do anything we bloody want to anybody we want to. Who is the hypocrite, the absolute or the one who wishes for the exact thing he is condemning God.

 

Except when he sentences them to eternal suffering for "crimes" that are minor by the definition of any civilized society. God's actions are right by his definition alone, a definition which is morally wrong.

 

Again definition of civilized, manmade. Let me put it this way, if you go under the lordship of God and obey his laws, your going to stumble, make mistakes. He knows this, that is why repentance is a daily thing, you seek God in a relationship of companionship and you'll find yourself doing less and less what is displeasing not only to God but in the long run to yourself. God understands, he became human and died on a cross. He has felt hunger and disease, pain and suffering but he overcame them to show that you can to. Then he died your sentence so that you might come back to him. He provided everything. It is not the matter of owe you stole two dollars, eternal torment. Its a matter of seeking a relationship with God where you didn't need to steal those two dollars. If you count out, murder, rape, grand theft, purgery then your left with a lot of minor crimes according to the legal system, but God provided a way to repent for even mass murder. But it has to be true repentence because God knows you heart, he is all knowing. Now you say that he is morally wrong again, notice this circle where I can explain again and again my interpretation of God's actions and you'll continue to question them every time I provide an answer, this leads two conclusions:

 

A: You don't understand my point in my answers.

 

B: You refuse to understand my point in my answers.

 

Again, yes God's actions are define by him alone, he is God, he never struck down a nation dead in its tracks. He allowed a people to commit war against another people, a people that obeyed him against a people that spit in his face. Obedience brings favor, Disobedience brings eventual death (or punishment). As for eternal punishment, God can not abide in his presence disobedience, so he must cast it from him. Being cast away from God to live eternity alone with no companions is eternal anguish, but we made the decision not to have a relationship with God. Barbaric, no, he could just snuff out your life and be done with it, but he provides over and over and over again the opportunity to come back to him.

 

 

What a kind God... he hasn't destroyed us yet. Did you ever think that maybe a morally correct God wouldn't even think of destroying us? The fact that this is even an issue is a sign of God's flaws!

 

He isn't going to destroy us, he is going to send us away from his sight into outer darkness, because with God there is only light. He created the world, he created the light "Let there be light, and there was." We rejected God, we have fallen away from him, we decided never to know God, "Depart from me, I never knew you." We won't have a relationship with God, because we want to be our own god's. Your thinking in the physical again Peregrine, not that these bodies be but dust formed by the hand of God. Its your decision, accept God or reject him, but the consequence of YOUR decision is God's acceptance of you into the eternal presence of God or the rejection of you into outer darkness where there will be weeping (sorrow) and gnashing of teeth (self regret/anger). The choice has always been ours and that is what constitutes free-will.

 

 

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In closing of my final post, I want to thank you all for bring this up and finally drawing me into it. I have found myself slipping in my faith and it was the ... interesting arguements that you brought up that enabled me to take a look again at my life and realize that I do have a choice. I am the one responsible for my decisions. Thank you for bringing me closer to God than I ever thought possible in my limited human knowledge. God bless you, and may he open your eyes.

 

Finally, I suggest reading the bible, starting in the new testament and then working into the old as it assists in better understand what is happening in the old testament for which you falsely construe as crimes. Also, C.S. Lewis a noted aetheist that converted back to cristianity wrote a book entitled "Mere Christianity" were he explains not only in the terms of our ingrained morality but in that of the scientific and that of common sense how a God must exist and how he was brought back from his aethiestic view. He said he had to make a choice, again his own of free-will. If your truly interested in this arguement and its not only a debate to remove God and replace him with you higher law than I hope you will read these two books thoroughly, they will enrich your life, your spirit and hopefully they will help you with the questions you still cling to for answers in which I seem to have been inadequate in answering fully to you.

 

God Bless You.

 

Joshua David Bellamy

[german_man]

By the way i suppport hundinmans christtian beliefs 100%.

 

 

In the words of a very wise man:

 

" There is no evil, evil is only the abscense of God.."

 

 

- Percy Herbert

[Malchik]

Of course no one will change sides, that is the way of religion and why it is fundamentally evil irrespective of the 'god' worshipped. But here we are dealing with the morality of that god referred to in the bible, only one among many. There can be no logical disagreement that he has been a criminal sadist. Maybe he is no longer and he is now, as some would suggest, a god of love and forgiveness.

 

Fine, if he created me, he knows and understands me and will forgive me whatever I do since he has made me the way I am. So if the christian god exists I'll go to heaven however I behave and whoever I profess to believe in while I am alive. My behaviour need only be constrained by social laws. If he does not exist it doesn't matter how I behave from any religious point of view and my behaviour need only be constrained by social laws.

 

So it doesn't make a difference either way.

 

On the other hand since the evidence strongly implies that he is anything but loving and forgiving the idea of being his pawn after death as well as in life horrifies me. But as there is no one who can match up to god's own concept of what he wants however hard they try (read the bible for evidence, I suggest starting at the story of Job), I might as well stop worrying about it and allow my behaviour to be constrained only by social laws.

 

Ah - no problem then!

[Tinduriel]

This whole debate is insane.

 

It is clearly stated in the bible that God is holy. And if we take the bible for accurate historical information and as a fact. (That I don't suggest to do) Then God is very moral being.

 

I got this from www.dictionary.com :

 

"adj. ho·li·er, ho·li·est

Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.

 

Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.

 

Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person. "

 

It didn't stop at that, but you can check it out yourself I suppose. So there cannot be a debate if God is moral or not, when you take the bible as a fact. Because the bible states that God is a holy person this means God is living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system.

[Peregrine]

Wrong. God is holy by his definition only. The bible is an accurate historical account, reporting events as they happened. God claims to be holy, but his actions do not match his words. If Hitler claimed to be holy, and I wrote a book describing the event, would you consider his words to be true? My book might be entirely true, but it is reporting a lie. The bible is no different.

 

But let's look closer at that definition. Remember, multiple definitions do not mean all of them are true at once.

 

Belonging to, derived from, or associated with a divine power; sacred.

 

Ok, that pretty obviously describes God. But it only considers his power, not the morality of its use (whether good or bad).

 

Regarded with or worthy of worship or veneration; revered: a holy book.

 

Ok, God is clearly regarded with worship by many people. I disagree with the "worthy of worship" part, but that's another "or" case. The definition still fits whether God is good or evil.

 

Living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system; saintly: a holy person.

 

Strict or highly moral. Not necessarily both. God's law is definitely strict!

 

 

 

So, the dictionary defintion can be applied to an evil God just as well as a good one.

 

 

Because the bible states that God is a holy person this means God is living according to a strict or highly moral religious or spiritual system.

 

Again, "or". God lives according to a strict system of vengeance, ego, and murder. God may call himself holy, and may fit the dictionary definition of it, but that does not make him morally right.

[Tinduriel]

Ok somehow I got the impression that the purpose of the topic was to assume that EVERYTHING written in the bible was true (It is a long thread and English isn't my primary languege). But as I re-read the thread, actually only the opening post, I understood that we are only taking the actions that God made as a fact. So if someone could help me out here, do we take everything in the bible as a fact or just take THE book as a normal history book (written by the winners, here God and his followers/believers with their own objective POV's). In the latter case you are right we can and we should question God's morality. But if we are to take everything from the bible as a fact, then this debate is pointless. Because God would then be absolutely good by definition therefore every action that God makes is good, therefore his morality is good.

[Breton Thief Oriana]

Well, if we take the book as God's word, and the ten commandments as God's word, then we realize that when God flooded the earth during the story of Noah that he broke one of his own commandments many times over. That is sort of hippocritical.

[Peregrine]

Ok, better explanation of the "bible is true" condition. The whole point of it is to keep the debate about the morality of God, not about the accuracy of the descriptions of his actions. So we consider the bible an entirely true historical account. Examples:

 

God came down from heaven and declared that he is good.

 

Unarguable fact: God came down from heaven and declared that he is good.

Not unarguable fact: God was telling the truth when he made this claim.

 

Allowed argument: God was lying when he said this.

Not allowed: This didn't really happen. God doesn't exist, so the observers must have been drunk. Therefore God's statement can not be true.

 

God destroyed a civilization that refused to believe in him.

 

Unarguable fact: God destroyed a civilization that refused to believe in him.

Not unarguable fact: Anything related to the morality of the act.

 

Allowed argument: God's actions were (immoral/justified/etc) because of (reason).

Not allowed: God didn't really do that. That story is just a way for the priests to maintain rule by fear. We can't judge God by actions that didn't really happen, so God is still good.

 

God created the universe.

 

Unarguable fact: God created the universe as described in Genesis.

Not unarguable fact: Anything related to the quality of the product, motivation for God's decisions, etc.

 

Allowed argument: God's act of creation gives him justification for otherwise evil acts (or doesn't).

Not allowed: God didn't really create the universe. Therefore the whole argument that creation justifies his actions is invalid.