Morality of God

[Peregrine]

He has the power to strike anyone dead at any moment if he wishes. But he does not because he is just.

 

So if I put a gun to your head and at the last second decide not to shoot, I'm just? I am evil for even considering it as a possible action. Perhaps less evil than if I had actually murdered you, but still evil.

 

God is no different. The fact that he would even consider destroying humanity shows that he has both a massive ego and flawed morals. In fact, God is even worse, since he has struck people dead in the past.

 

He enforces the commands that I listed by punishing the disobeyers. He made laws for us to follow and him to enforce. Is that not justified by him being our creator.

 

No. The fact that God created us does not give him infinite authority to do whatever he wants without being considered evil. If God abuses his power, he is evil.

 

Take a look outside your window (if it is light outside where you are) and tell me how that creation can happen on its own.

 

I have already stated my opinion on this subject elsewhere. The universe works just fine without a God.

 

I know that this topic is not Creation but a God with as much power as to speak all of that into existence deserves some credit and does not deserve people calling him unjust for punishing people who are sick and twisted.

 

Yes he does deserve to be called unjust. If all he did was punish the most sick and twisted people, he would not be unjust. But he doesn't stop there. He punishes people guilty of minor crimes just as harsly, and even punishes people who are completely innocent if he feels like it.

 

God says to fear him and not man or the devil. I do just that. I fear no one except God because he stated in the Bible that he is a jealous God and will punish those who put other things and idols before him and his superior power.

 

Concession accepted. God has a massive ego problem if the greatest sin by his defintion is failure to worship properly.

 

Even you must beleive that if there is a one true, all powerful, all knowing, superior being, that he is justified to enforce his own laws by punishment by death.

 

Not when the "crimes" are not even close to serious enough to deserve death.

 

 

I believe that this little discussion is pointless and we are just geting off topic by justifying my statement of Percy Herbert being very famous.

I would like to focus on our other debate we have going.

 

Don't try to use an irrelevant appeal to authority if you don't want it discussed. But I'll drop that part of the discussion on one condition: you never mention Percy Herbert or his quote again.

 

=====================================

 

Now I ask you the same question as I gave Darnoc (and this is for everyone else in the debate as well):

 

If it was God's will and new definition of morality, would you sacrifice innocent children, killing them in the most painful way possible, just to satisfy God's demand for death in his name? You must sacrifice one child a week or God will not be satisfied, and those children will face the same judgement that any other person would. If they have not properly worshipped God, they will be sentenced to Hell.

[hundinman]

He has the power to strike anyone dead at any moment if he wishes. But he does not because he is just.

 

So if I put a gun to your head and at the last second decide not to shoot, I'm just? I am evil for even considering it as a possible action. Perhaps less evil than if I had actually murdered you, but still evil.

 

God is no different. The fact that he would even consider destroying humanity shows that he has both a massive ego and flawed morals. In fact, God is even worse, since he has struck people dead in the past.

 

He enforces the commands that I listed by punishing the disobeyers. He made laws for us to follow and him to enforce. Is that not justified by him being our creator.

 

No. The fact that God created us does not give him infinite authority to do whatever he wants without being considered evil. If God abuses his power, he is evil.

 

Take a look outside your window (if it is light outside where you are) and tell me how that creation can happen on its own.

 

I have already stated my opinion on this subject elsewhere. The universe works just fine without a God.

 

I know that this topic is not Creation but a God with as much power as to speak all of that into existence deserves some credit and does not deserve people calling him unjust for punishing people who are sick and twisted.

 

Yes he does deserve to be called unjust. If all he did was punish the most sick and twisted people, he would not be unjust. But he doesn't stop there. He punishes people guilty of minor crimes just as harsly, and even punishes people who are completely innocent if he feels like it.

 

God says to fear him and not man or the devil. I do just that. I fear no one except God because he stated in the Bible that he is a jealous God and will punish those who put other things and idols before him and his superior power.

 

Concession accepted. God has a massive ego problem if the greatest sin by his defintion is failure to worship properly.

 

Even you must beleive that if there is a one true, all powerful, all knowing, superior being, that he is justified to enforce his own laws by punishment by death.

 

Not when the "crimes" are not even close to serious enough to deserve death.

 

 

I believe that this little discussion is pointless and we are just geting off topic by justifying my statement of Percy Herbert being very famous.

I would like to focus on our other debate we have going.

 

Don't try to use an irrelevant appeal to authority if you don't want it discussed. But I'll drop that part of the discussion on one condition: you never mention Percy Herbert or his quote again.

 

=====================================

 

Now I ask you the same question as I gave Darnoc (and this is for everyone else in the debate as well):

 

If it was God's will and new definition of morality, would you sacrifice innocent children, killing them in the most painful way possible, just to satisfy God's demand for death in his name? You must sacrifice one child a week or God will not be satisfied, and those children will face the same judgement that any other person would. If they have not properly worshipped God, they will be sentenced to Hell.

No, God is not CONSIDERING destroying us and not doing it, he has the power to do it and is not doing it. That makes him just in my opinion. God would not be destroying man if Adam and Eve had not eaten from the Tree of Good and Evil in the first place! God does not strike man dead with a method unclassifiable. He uses diseases and plagues that man brought the wrath of upon us by eating from that tree. HE does not just cause a person to fall over dead for no reaon known to man. He uses methods that kill millions pf people anyway. He just causes that plague/ disease/ catastrophe on them.

 

 

 

By what standards and beliefs are you calling God evil for usinf his superiority to kill man. That is simply a humans persective and we know not what Gods motive is at all. Go ahead and put a gun to my head and kill me (if you can find me) I will be in heaven and you will be judged. I will be honored to die for my beliefs rather than by some gang related drive by shooting.

 

 

How can you know a universe will work without a God?

This has not happened and can't be proved.

 

 

Tell me when God has EVER punished an inocent person because he felt like it.

I would like to see some cases where this has happened.

 

EGO problem? That is just a stupid word made by man to describe people who think of themselves as superior when they aren't. GOD IS!

 

 

When has God killed anyone for a minor crime not worthy of death?

PROOF on this please.

 

God will not have us sacrifice 1 child a week and any child anytime for that matter. When has he requested this? I know of one story where Gos asked a man named Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to show his true love and devotion to God.

Right before Abraham burned his son, God sent an angel of the Lord to stop him. God then supplied a ra/sheep for the burnt offering. I will get inti this discussion of sacrifices no more.

 

HM

[Peregrine]

No, God is not CONSIDERING destroying us and not doing it, he has the power to do it and is not doing it. That makes him just in my opinion. God would not be destroying man if Adam and Eve had not eaten from the Tree of Good and Evil in the first place!

 

Of course God doesn't even think about it. That's why he did it once and had to specifically promise not to do it again. Concession accepted, thank you for debating.

 

God does not strike man dead with a method unclassifiable. He uses

diseases and plagues that man brought the wrath of upon us by eating from that tree. HE does not just cause a person to fall over dead for no reaon known to man. He uses methods that kill millions pf people anyway. He just causes that plague/ disease/ catastrophe on them.

 

Murder is just as wrong no matter what weapon you use to do it. If I kill you with my bare hands am I less evil than if I shoot you? No, and God is no different.

 

By what standards and beliefs are you calling God evil for usinf his superiority to kill man. That is simply a humans persective and we know not what Gods motive is at all. Go ahead and put a gun to my head and kill me (if you can find me) I will be in heaven and you will be judged. I will be honored to die for my beliefs rather than by some gang related drive by shooting.

 

Fine, if you insist on adding that extra condition to my example... I give you a counter condition. I am threatening to kill you for some random reason... perhaps I want your money, perhaps I just feel like killing someone. Would you still accept death just as willingly? And who says you'd go to heaven anyway? With God's twisted sense of justice, you're probably guilty of a million crimes you don't even know about, and are doomed to Hell.

 

How can you know a universe will work without a God?

This has not happened and can't be proved.

 

I won't repeat my full arguments since this is a different thread. Go read the other religion threads if you want the full explanation. So, in summary:

Science has explained nearly everything in our observable world. The few things that it hasn't explained are beyond our ability to observe them (what came before our universe, etc). And for those things, God is no better an explanation than an inanimate force. Therefore the most reasonable explanation is that there is no God, or if there is, that he exists entirely separately from our world and has no effect on it.

 

Tell me when God has EVER punished an inocent person because he felt like it.

I would like to see some cases where this has happened.

 

Not innocent by the unjust laws of God, innocent by the laws of any civilized society.

 

EGO problem? That is just a stupid word made by man to describe people who think of themselves as superior when they aren't. GOD IS!

 

And to describe Gods who think of themselves as superior when they are not. God considers himself morally superior when he is not, refuses to concede any flaw, demands absolute worship. These same characteristics in a human would be called an ego problem. They are no different when God has them.

 

When has God killed anyone for a minor crime not worthy of death?

PROOF on this please.

 

Failure to worship properly is only a crime by God's barbaric system of "justice." Countless people have been killed for this crime alone. And that's ignoring the fact that God's genocidal "justice" inevitably killed innocent people guilty only of being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

 

=====================================

 

God will not have us sacrifice 1 child a week and any child anytime for that matter. When has he requested this? I know of one story where Gos asked a man named Abraham to sacrifice his son Isaac to show his true love and devotion to God.

Right before Abraham burned his son, God sent an angel of the Lord to stop him. God then supplied a ra/sheep for the burnt offering.

 

Read the question. This is not a valid answer. God's will in this case is unquestionable, he has proved/explained to you by whatever method you will accept that this is what he wants. Now make your choice.

 

I will get into this discussion of sacrifices no more.

 

Because you know you have argued your way into a trap from which there is no escape. Concession accepted.

[Darnoc]

Some of you (you also Peregrin) stated that god broke his own law, because he said "You shall not kill" and he kills people. Now, "You shall not kill" is an uncorrect translation of the Hebrew text (which is the original one). It would be more accurate to translate "You shall not murder". I will provide you with the Hebrew words and their translation later on, so that I can prove it to you (for those who don't believe me).

 

So god doesn't forbid to kill, he only forbids to murder. Now what is murder? The following cases aren't considered murders: Killing by accident, killing someone in a war and execution (by the legal government). Because god created earth and has absolute power, he is the legal government. In fact he possesses the universe (everything you create is yours), so he can do with it what he wants. He creates laws for this universe he rules legally (because he possesses it) and sets punishments for breaking those laws (death). So when he kills any person because this person acted against the his legal law, he isn't murdering, he is enforcing the law, which isn't illegal, but a legal governmental act which is supported by the law.

[ThetaOrionis01]

Saddam Hussein was the legal government of Iraq. HItler and the nazi party were the legal government of Germany. So their genocide was legal? The torture and murder in any fascist regime is then, by your definition, legal?

 

Yet most people would agree that it is UTTERLY immoral.

 

 

If god is the all-knowing, all-powerful entity we assume he is for the purpose of this debate, then we must hold him to the highest standard of morality - after all he is not subject to errors, lack of knowledge, inability to foresee consequences. And he fails those tests. Instead of providing us with an example of highest moral standards he indulges in petty revenge (revenge is mine? rings a bell), and MURDER. Can anyone seriously claim that in the flood no innocents were killed, that there was not a single infant in the cities wiped out by god's wrath? MURDER. And that is without even taking into account that without free will there can be no sin.

 

 

If you postulate an all-powerful, all-knowing god as creator of the universe and everything within it, such a universe must necessarily be deterministic and is irreconcilable with free will. Everything within this universe happens with the knowledge and consent of the creator. You cannot claim unlimited power for god in some respects, but restrict it in others. Either he is god - in which case we are just automatons following our programmed course which he determined for us - or he is not god, in which case we have free will to choose our own actions. If, however, he is not god, he has no right to have tantrums when we make choices that displease him, he is merely a superhuman with special powers.

 

A measure of morality, IMO, is what you do with the power you have. Just because you can do something does not automatically mean that you should do it. Abuse of power - such as god's abuse of the power he has - is immoral, in the same way that child abuse is immoral.

 

Human governments are usually subject to the same laws they apply to their citizens. Exceptions to this are feudalism and dictatorships - not usually regarded as the most moral forms of government. And usually, where governments flout their own laws this is deemed morally reprehensible. God breaks his own laws against killing. Immoral.

 

Of course, I am judging god by human standards, because these are the only standards I can judge him by. And by those standards he fails.

 

What I would say, however, to those who defend god's actions is this: How can you presume to know the reasons behind god's actions? How can you presume to know god's will, and explain it in human terms?

 

The only way we can judge the morality of god is by applying not just the standards we apply to ourselves, but the ideal of those standards. God himself, the all-powerful and all-knowing creator of the universe, gave us those standards to judge him by - if he did not want us to judge him he would not have created us as we are. And he fails to meet those standards.

 

 

@hundinman: Just to clarify, I presume by darkness and light you mean the absence and presence of electromagnetic radiation within the visible spectrum?

[Malchik]

He murdered Job's children to test the man. Ha! Please don't ignore the bits of the bible that seem not to fit. And what about the story of Jael, encouraging an enemy to have sex with her (euphmistically translated in the authorised version) and then when he was asleep icing him by knocking a wooden peg into his skull.

 

Judges

 

4:17 However Sisera fled away on his feet to the tent of Jael the wife of Heber the Kenite; for there was peace between Jabin the king of Hazor and the house of Heber the Kenite.

 

4:18 Jael went out to meet Sisera, and said to him, Turn in, my lord, turn in to me; don't be afraid. He came in to her into the tent, and she covered him with a rug.

 

4:19 He said to her, Please give me a little water to drink; for I am thirsty. She opened a bottle of milk, and gave him drink, and covered him.

 

4:20 He said to her, Stand in the door of the tent, and it shall be, when any man does come and inquire of you, and say, Is there any man here? that you shall say, No.

 

4:21 Then Jael Heber's wife took a tent-pin, and took a hammer in her hand, and went softly to him, and struck the pin into his temples, and it pierced through into the ground; for he was in a deep sleep; so he swooned and died.

 

Moral. Huh!

[Darnoc]

Can anyone seriously claim that in the flood no innocents were killed, that there was not a single infant in the cities wiped out by god's wrath? MURDER. And that is without even taking into account that without free will there can be no sin.

 

When we take the bible as historical fact (which we do in this thread), then no one which was killed in the flood was innocent. "And the lord saw that the malice of men was great and all his thoughts in his heart were only evil the whole day." (Genesis 6, 5) and "Then every flesh had corrupted its way on earth" (Genesis 6, 12). It is also stated that only Noah and the members of his family were just in those times. Everyone had broken the law of god, except Noah and his family and those were speared. So only guilty people were killed.

 

God breaks his own laws against killing. Immoral.

 

As I said, the right translation is "murder" and not "killing" (and I acctually don't know why it is translated false in all European translations I know). So god didn't break his law. Stop bringing this argument of his immorality, when I already disproved it. You can only prove that he is immoral when he has murdered, not when he has killed.

 

Everything within this universe happens with the knowledge and consent of the creator. You cannot claim unlimited power for god in some respects, but restrict it in others. Either he is god - in which case we are just automatons following our programmed course which he determined for us - or he is not god, in which case we have free will to choose our own actions. If, however, he is not god, he has no right to have tantrums when we make choices that displease him, he is merely a superhuman with special powers.

 

If someone knows what will happen this doesn't mean that you have no free will. God doesn't change your will somehow that it suits him. He just creates the circumstances this way that you will choose what you choose. You come to this decicision with your logic, reason, feeling and whatever because they suit the circumstances.

Let me give you an example: Someone builds a time machine and goes into the future. He does this many times until he knows exactly everything that is going to happen. But he doesn't tell anyone of it, only some hints of what will come. He knows exactly that when he would tell everything, no one would believe what he says. Because the other people don't know what is going to happen, they aren't influenced by this knowlegde and will make those decicions the time traveller has seen when he went into the future.

Now with god it is a little more complicated. For this I'll choose an example given by the Science Fiction author Isaac Asimov in his "Foundation Trilogy". There a man can forsee the future with science and calculations (the science of psychohistory which searchs for the laws of history). He then brings a group in certain circumstances so that they will be forced to have only one possibility. This man only created the first circumstance, but he knew that when he did this the other circumstances will follow and his people would choose then the only possible way out of the problem. But those people didn't know any detail of this "great plan", so that their decicions weren't influenced by their knowlegde. They solved all the problems only with their logic, reason etc. etc. suiting the circumstances. Did those people stop to have a free will? They choose to do something, but the man who brought them into this chain of circumstances knew everyting they were going to decide. But it was still their decicion and their thinking that solved the problems, the "prophet" didn't tell them what to do. He only started a chain of circumstances which would lead to them choosing the right way (with the use of their reason). This is how god works. He started a chain of circumstances and situation, he created the earth exactly the way that all those situation would happen. And he knew from the beginning what we were going to do in those situations. But it was us who choose what to do, because we don't know the whole picture and only see the moment and react to the present situation.

[Peregrine]

When we take the bible as historical fact (which we do in this thread), then no one which was killed in the flood was innocent. "And the lord saw that the malice of men was great and all his thoughts in his heart were only evil the whole day." (Genesis 6, 5) and "Then every flesh had corrupted its way on earth" (Genesis 6, 12). It is also stated that only Noah and the members of his family were just in those times. Everyone had broken the law of god, except Noah and his family and those were speared. So only guilty people were killed.

 

By God's law. By the nazi laws, every one of their victims was guilty as well. Does that make their mass murder right? And that's ignoring the fact that the quote is an obvious exaggeration. No civilization can be made up entirely of criminals worthy of death. That's not a stable society, so there must have been people who were guilty of much less serious "crimes" or innocent. And what about their victims? The story says everyone died.

 

As I said, the right translation is "murder" and not "killing" (and I acctually don't know why it is translated false in all European translations I know). So god didn't break his law. Stop bringing this argument of his immorality, when I already disproved it. You can only prove that he is immoral when he has murdered, not when he has killed.

 

Did you even read Theta Orionis's post? Every action of the nazis was legal by their laws. Are you telling me that it wasn't murder? Maybe you should go explain that to the survivors... If God's actions are not murder, then the nazis (and every other murdering government) were entirely justified in their actions.

 

So we have proved that he has murdered. Concede your argument.

[ThetaOrionis01]

When we take the bible as historical fact (which we do in this thread), then no one which was killed in the flood was innocent

 

There was not a single baby on earth when god decided to kill everyone except a chosen few? Totally ludricrous and unsustainable assumption to make. Therefore god committed murder of innocents.

 

As I said, the right translation is "murder" and not "killing" (and I acctually don't know why it is translated false in all European translations I know). So god didn't break his law.

 

The excuse of every fascist dictator - the victims were enemies of the state. If you truly believe that a killing by a government cannot be murder, I'd like you to repeat that to the Mothers of the Disappeared in South America - and to survivors of the Holocaust.

 

 

Stop bringing this argument of his immorality, when I already disproved it. You can only prove that he is immoral when he has murdered, not when he has killed.

 

You have not disproven anything. A government killing can still be murder - and whether you want to call wholesale slaughter carried out by god a 'legal execution' or murder, it is still utterly immoral. Please answer this question: do you condone wholesale slaughter carried out by a regime?

Putting a different label on genocide does not make it any less immoral and utterly reprehensible.

 

He just creates the circumstances this way that you will choose what you choose

 

Thank you for proving my point. There is no free will.

 

 

Now with god it is a little more complicated.

This is how god works.

 

 

You really think you, as a mere human, can even begin to understand how an all-knowing, all-powerful god works? How presumptious! This is a huge assumption on your part, nothing more.

 

 

But it was still their decicion and their thinking that solved the problems, the "prophet" didn't tell them what to do.

 

The prophet, however, didn't create their genetic make-up, their way of thinking or their personalities. But that's beside the point. Because the people in this story do not have free will - they are creations of the author, who decided all their actions for them. Infact, to the characters in the example you have picked, the author is god - he created them, he is all-knowing, and all-powerful to them.

You have, however, nicely illustrated my point that in the deterministic universe created by such a god only the illusion of free will exists.

 

 

And he knew from the beginning what we were going to do in those situations.

 

Precisely.

 

But it was us who choose what to do, because we don't know the whole picture and only see the moment and react to the present situation.

 

No. If god knows from the outset what we will choose then any other choices stop to exist for us.

[Peregrine]

Now with god it is a little more complicated. 

 

QUOTE

This is how god works.

 

You really think you, as a mere human, can even begin to understand how an all-knowing, all-powerful god works? How presumptious! This is a huge assumption on your part, nothing more.

 

And even worse, you object to me doing the exact same thing, hypocrite. You claim God's morality and actions are too high for us mere mortals to understand, and that we can not (and don't deserve to) criticize him. This is dishonest debating and arrogant.