War with N. Korea?

[Fkemman11]

If the US or South Koreans filled those hungry N. Korean bellies with some much needed food, then I don't see much problem stamping out any loyalties once the regime is knocked out. Propaganda and fear are the only things they have. But what happens once their people no longer care about consequences since they are starving and dying anyway? :huh: If I had a crystal ball and any "vision", I might see a coup in the near future. Surely some of those people understand who is truly to blame for their predicament. I'm certainly not advocating another Bay of Pigs. But S. Korea could possibly pull off what the US could not. Those are all the same people with family on both sides of the 38th parallel in some cases. Some in-roads must have been established at some point. It would likely be a one way ticket for any brave enough to try. But the stakes are too high for many to ignore a chance to try something other than all out war. I would die trying. I might die in failure, but at least I will have tried to right some wrongs against my people. Are all the selfless, brave heroes of yesterday gone? Does the N. Korean man that watches he and his family waste away from starvation not see the cause and want to do something about it? Or are they thoroughly deceived into believing that the US and allies are responsible?

[HeyYou]

If the US or South Koreans filled those hungry N. Korean bellies with some much needed food, then I don't see much problem stamping out any loyalties once the regime is knocked out. Propaganda and fear are the only things they have. But what happens once their people no longer care about consequences since they are starving and dying anyway? :huh: If I had a crystal ball and any "vision", I might see a coup in the near future. Surely some of those people understand who is truly to blame for their predicament. I'm certainly not advocating another Bay of Pigs. But S. Korea could possibly pull off what the US could not. Those are all the same people with family on both sides of the 38th parallel in some cases. Some in-roads must have been established at some point. It would likely be a one way ticket for any brave enough to try. But the stakes are too high for many to ignore a chance to try something other than all out war. I would die trying. I might die in failure, but at least I will have tried to right some wrongs against my people. Are all the selfless, brave heroes of yesterday gone? Does the N. Korean man that watches he and his family waste away from starvation not see the cause and want to do something about it? Or are they thoroughly deceived into believing that the US and allies are responsible?

The propaganda machine in NK is HIGHLY effective. The see lil Kim as the reincarnation of the original kim.... A great military leader, that knows all, sees all, etc...... Everything wrong in NIK is blamed on the US, and it's allies. The people are told that the US is doing this to them purely out of malice, and if ever there was a war, all sorts of terrible things would happen to them at the hands of america, and her allies. Since 99% of N Koreans have absolutely no idea what is going on in the rest of the world, they don't get any other perspective... so, they buy into the crap.

 

Don't hold your breath on a coup from within either. If that was going to happen, it would have already, likely back in the 90s, when famine was widespread in NK.

 

If we decide to engage in a ground war in NK, pretty much EVERY citizen there will fight tooth and nail against us.

[TheMastersSon]

We'll see what happens, but virtually all of the propaganda machine in NK *is* Jong-un himself. Once he's gone so too is his intimidation, and the need for his ridiculous personality cult. Qaddafi and Hussein etc etc had similar ridiculous cults, but none of these dictatorships (read: ZERO) saw any popular support when they failed or were deposed. Even in Europe, no popular support whatsoever when Hitler and Mussolini were defeated etc. Japan had fierce loyalty to their emperor but it was and still is a historical monarchy and not a military dictatorship. Again Jong-un receives the treatment he does because and only because he demands it at probable risk of death, and because no other alternative currently exists in NK. Edited October 25, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[HeyYou]

We'll see what happens, but virtually all of the propaganda machine in NK *is* Jong-un himself. Once he's gone so too is his intimidation, and the need for his ridiculous personality cult. Qaddafi and Hussein etc etc had similar ridiculous cults, but none of these dictatorships (read: ZERO) saw any popular support when they failed or were deposed. Even in Europe, no popular support whatsoever when Hitler and Mussolini were defeated etc. Japan had fierce loyalty to their emperor but it was and still is a historical monarchy and not a military dictatorship. Again Jong-un receives the treatment he does because and only because he demands it at probable risk of death, and because no other alternative currently exists in NK.

And do you think any of that would change if lil kimmy dropped dead tomorrow? Or would someone else step right into his place, and re-tool the propaganda machine to his own purposes?

 

See, I don't think JUST lil Kim is the issue.... It's the whole regime, and their mindset. Taking out lil Kim might set them back a bit, but, if you leave the rest in place, they will just come up with a new figurehead.

[TheMastersSon]

 

We'll see what happens, but virtually all of the propaganda machine in NK *is* Jong-un himself. Once he's gone so too is his intimidation, and the need for his ridiculous personality cult. Qaddafi and Hussein etc etc had similar ridiculous cults, but none of these dictatorships (read: ZERO) saw any popular support when they failed or were deposed. Even in Europe, no popular support whatsoever when Hitler and Mussolini were defeated etc. Japan had fierce loyalty to their emperor but it was and still is a historical monarchy and not a military dictatorship. Again Jong-un receives the treatment he does because and only because he demands it at probable risk of death, and because no other alternative currently exists in NK.

And do you think any of that would change if lil kimmy dropped dead tomorrow? Or would someone else step right into his place, and re-tool the propaganda machine to his own purposes?

 

See, I don't think JUST lil Kim is the issue.... It's the whole regime, and their mindset. Taking out lil Kim might set them back a bit, but, if you leave the rest in place, they will just come up with a new figurehead.

As with other debates it's pointless to argue over the future. Time will tell what happens but imo you're wrong. Jong-un's singular justification for his office, regime and cult of personality is paternal/inherited: he is where he is because and only because of who his father was. Not that we haven't had our own recent experience with the same phenomenon. But unlike GWB no justification for the Jong-un regime exists beyond himself and his own family, and I'm sure both will be primary targets if or when he's deposed. Being the idiot he is, he did us a huge favor when he "purged" his own uncle and his entire family. From my reading the uncle was actually the most China-aligned faction within NK's regime. Edited October 26, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[HeyYou]

 

 

We'll see what happens, but virtually all of the propaganda machine in NK *is* Jong-un himself. Once he's gone so too is his intimidation, and the need for his ridiculous personality cult. Qaddafi and Hussein etc etc had similar ridiculous cults, but none of these dictatorships (read: ZERO) saw any popular support when they failed or were deposed. Even in Europe, no popular support whatsoever when Hitler and Mussolini were defeated etc. Japan had fierce loyalty to their emperor but it was and still is a historical monarchy and not a military dictatorship. Again Jong-un receives the treatment he does because and only because he demands it at probable risk of death, and because no other alternative currently exists in NK.

And do you think any of that would change if lil kimmy dropped dead tomorrow? Or would someone else step right into his place, and re-tool the propaganda machine to his own purposes?

 

See, I don't think JUST lil Kim is the issue.... It's the whole regime, and their mindset. Taking out lil Kim might set them back a bit, but, if you leave the rest in place, they will just come up with a new figurehead.

As with other debates it's pointless to argue over the future. Time will tell what happens but imo you're wrong. Jong-un's singular justification for his office, regime and cult of personality is paternal/inherited: he is where he is because and only because of who his father was. Not that we haven't had our own recent experience with the same phenomenon. But unlike GWB no justification for the Jong-un regime exists beyond himself and his own family, and I'm sure both will be primary targets if or when he's deposed. Being the idiot he is, he did us a huge favor when he "purged" his own uncle and his entire family. From my reading the uncle was actually the most China-aligned faction within NK's regime.

 

I suppose it depends on just HOW lil kimmy meets his end. If he simply dies quietly in his 'sleep' one night..... then I wouldn't expect much to change there.... However, if he is killed when a selection of cruise missiles hit various targets within the country....... and folks understand just who launched them, why they launched them, and if the need arises, will do it again.... that may provide the proper motivation for real change in NK.

[TheMastersSon]

What's ironic imo is that Jong-un, right down to his WMD and threats to use them, is moreless everything GWB claimed Saddam Hussein was but really wasn't. Regardless, it didn't stop our government from starving Iraq for 12 years, and then invading and occupying it for longer than all of WWII, as long-term oil contracts were secured for Mr. Tillerson's company. Iraq remains in utter chaos today. It's a lesson NK appears to have learned. Edited October 26, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[HeyYou]

What's ironic imo is that Jong-un, right down to his WMD and threats to use them, is moreless everything GWB claimed Saddam Hussein was but really wasn't. Regardless, it didn't stop our government from starving Iraq for 12 years, and then invading and occupying it for longer than all of WWII, as long-term oil contracts were secured for Mr. Tillerson's company. Iraq remains in utter chaos today. It's a lesson NK appears to have learned.

Even at the time we were thinking about invading iraq, I was wondering why NK wasn't a higher priority. Saddam had flatly stated he didn't have a WMD program any more.... which turned out to be true. NK, on the other hand, we knew FOR A FACT that they were indeed developing them....... yet we invaded Iraq..... (which was already completely contained, and not even a threat.) Of course, here we are a decade and more later, Iraq is still in utter chaos, thanks to us... and NK now has the H-bomb.....

 

The government finally admitted the truth though, not so very long ago.... Iraq wasn't about WMDs, or terrorism, it was about oil, and that was it. We knew it at the time, but, bush ignored anyone one that didn't toe the party line.... and got the war he wanted, and the money from all that oil......

[TheMastersSon]

My understanding is that the originally proposed name of Operation Iraqi Freedom was Operation Iraqi Liberation. No joke. Bush had soliticited bids for contracts on Iraqi oil fields within three months of taking office, and two years before he invaded. And, almost certainly not coincidentally imo, six months before 911. It was clear to everyone what our primary objective was, just like Bush Sr. and Kuwait, and W's oil grab was supported by a majority of us. By 2004 Congress had already documented well over 200 half-truths and outright lies told about Iraq by Bush and his administration. Not a single charge has been brought in response to any of these lies:

https://permanent.access.gpo.gov/lps60698/pdf_admin_iraq_on_the_record_rep.pdf

When a federal government collapses it's never partially. Ours has been lying dead in the street since 1971 and simply awaits its horribly overdue burial. The rule of law in our Executive Branch has been anarchy since.

Getting back to NK, Jong-un spent last week contacting our allies and advising them to "distance themselves" from us. The universal response was to tell Jong-un to go suck eggs. It appears nobody wants a nuclear-armed NK, their testing was a major misstep for Jong-un. I'm telling you, his stupidity frightens me far more than his weapons. It's been the downfall of many or most inherited dictatorships and empires, even the Romans: trying to fill your father's shoes when you really can't, or can only by violence, fear and intimidation. IMO the NK situation is pretty much the world's worst nightmare come to pass. It would have happened with some country sooner or later, as long as there are haves and have-nots for WMDs.

Edited November 1, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[HeyYou]

Welcome to the age of nuclear blackmail, brought to you by the fine folks of North Korea. :)

 

I don't know if Kim is crazy, stupid, or..... crafty. So far, he has made a lot of noise, and threats, but, hasn't done anything that could be directly considered an 'act of war'. (although, sinking a s. korea ship, and shelling a s. korean island SHOULD have been considered as such.) So long as all he does is holler and scream, we can't really touch him, without setting off a larger conflict. Unfortunately, I believe that we need to wait for him to make the first act of real aggression, in order to keep China, and Russia, from coming in on his side. And it HAS to be an overt act, that is clearly perpetrated by the N. Korean government.