Kevin Spacey

[Beflire]

It's not one person though. And no, I don't think that it should be done if just one person accuses someone. I think if someone accuses someone of something, it should be looked into. The thing is that you're still assuming that these people are just accusing to get back at someone. You're not taking into account the statistics of falsely reported sexual harassment, which is 2% to 6% of all reports in the country. Credibility is another factor. Are these people saying things that are likely? Are they credible witnesses with no background of lying or making things up? Do they have a previous relationship with the accused? Are they of sound mind and body? Does the accused have a history of these actions? These are things that need to be looked into. But you're going the exact opposite route of 'Well, since it can't be proven, you can't punish these people.' If you were a teacher, and you came back to your classroom to find someone had drawn a dick all over the chalkboard, and three different people said 'Timmy did it!' would you say 'Well, I can't prove it, so you get away with it.' Even when Timmy has a penchant for trouble?

[HeyYou]

But in some cases, it IS just one person. The media hypes it up, and their career is pretty much over.

 

Also, try reading what I wrote, instead of putting words in my mouth. I said "someone could", Not "they all are." If you think it doesn't happen, you are deluding yourself. There was a case right here in the little podunk town where I live recently, where a woman told her then 4 year old daughter, of accusing mom's ex-boyfriend of 'touching' her. It was obvious she was coached, everyone knew it, but, mom screamed loud enough, that the man was prosecuted, he was threatened with 25 to life, so, plead to five years in prison, for a crime he did not commit. (he didn't trust the court system here, to actually find him not guilty, as the prosecution successfully suppressed all the evidence that pointed at mom being behind the whole thing.) I think your statistics are sadly inaccurate.

 

I would also point out, that in most cases, there ARE NO WITNESSES. It is the word of one person, stating something, with absolutely zero substantiation. Then the rumor mill starts, and it seems folks start coming out of the woodwork with stories about how said person did something else, to someone else, and it just steamrolls from there.

 

Should the allegations be investigated? Yes, they certainly should. HOWEVER, ruining someones career, over unproven allegations, is definitely NOT something that should be happening, like we are seeing today. Unless something is PROVEN beyond a reasonable doubt, the ONLY consequences should be AT MOST, suspension of duties. And in a bunch of cases, even that would be too much.

[Beflire]

I'm not putting words into your mouth. The thing is you're operating on the thought that 'These are just accusations'. Even if you think that they may be telling the truth, the logic of 'These are just accusations' means nothing gets done about them, and the cycle continues. Most of the time, you cannot prove that there was any wrong-doing, whether there actually was or not. But if everyone worked with your logic, then nothing would be done about anything and the predators who prey on people and harass, abuse, and intimidate them into sex would go unpunished. That's why it's important to know and understand credibility of the accuser. As I stated, a lot can be gained from just looking into both the accuser and the accused history. It's not that big of a leap to believe someone has done something wrong if there has been multiple reports about this over multiple years. The problem with today's society is that it's not important until it makes the news. How many times do you think that someone has spoken out against someone and the higher ups just said 'Eh, that's just an accusation. We can't do anything.'

 

You are hoisting that 'Ruining career' flag over and over again. No matter if we're talking about celebs or not, the idea of this ruining a career being the end of the world is stupid. If we're talking about celebs, then they wait a few years and make a comeback. If it's a big businessman, they barely get reprimanded at all. If we're talking about average Joe Shmo, then they can get a new job. it's better than letting these people repeatedly hurt others. It's not a question of getting convicted of a crime, but they should lose their jobs. You cannot just sweep it under the rug and pretend like nothing is there.

 

Also, you give ONE case about a screwed up person trying to get at another. That doesn't prove my statistic inaccurate. Multiple case studies are not ruled out because one person was wrongly convicted, which would fall into the statistic.

Also, you give ONE case about a screwed up person trying to get at another. That doesn't prove my statistic inaccurate. Multiple case studies are not ruled out because one person was wrongly convicted, which would fall into the statistic.

[HeyYou]

I do believe I flatly stated the allegations should be investigated. But, as you point out, in many cases, there is no evidence, so, nothing can be proven. Yet you are still willing to convict them in the court of public opinion, and pretty much ruin their lives. That is simply not acceptable. If we are going to permit folks to be hung out to dry for something someone says they did, 30 plus years ago....... then what about murder? Shall I point at someone and proclaim they are guilty of murder, and we execute them simply on my say so? I hardly think so.

 

The biggest issue is, a significant percentage of these case are indeed about stuff that happen 10 or more years ago, which in most cases, exceeds the statute of limitations. (varies by state, I don't think California has a statute of limitations for an assortment of sex crimes, rape being right up there on the list.) So, legally, there is nothing that CAN be done. Were this ANY other crime, and 'time had expired', there would be zero consequences, even if there was a mountain of evidence proving their guilt.

 

We are a nation of laws. What holds us all together is adherence to those laws. If we start selecting special cases, where laws simply don't apply, and we punish folks without a shred of proof, we are no better than North Korea.

[TheMastersSon]

I'm sorry, are we just glossing over the fact that Kevin Spacey made sexual advances on a 14 year old boy? And there is a difference between waking up with a friend's head on your stomach and waking up with someone acting pushy and trying to coerce you into sex with their head on your stomach. Also, way to dehumanize him by calling him a bimbo, even though nothing supports that claim. You seem to have blind hatred when it comes to the victims. You have no idea the courage it takes to speak out about sexual harassment and assault, even years after the fact. And just because you think that it doesn't seem like much doesn't make it nothing.

According to the "victim" no sex occurred. Read his story and tell us what if anything qualified as sexual assault in our country in the 1980's. If it did happen I'd be first in line to call for Spacey's head on a platter, but as far as the established account goes it didn't.

 

My defense of Spacey was and still is motivated by the utter absurdity of judging 30+ year-old behavior by current moral standards. E.g. would you like to know how ubiquitous and socially acceptable terms like f@&#!t were in 1985? Watch the cable TV-edited version of the film "Trading Places" for an example. The word ni**er (black person) is bleeped out but the word f@&#!t is left in. Repeatedly. Just like on this site. :) j/k Today a different standard exists or is supposed to exist and without any doubt, 30 years from now we will have yet another standard.

Edited November 30, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[HeyYou]

 

I'm sorry, are we just glossing over the fact that Kevin Spacey made sexual advances on a 14 year old boy? And there is a difference between waking up with a friend's head on your stomach and waking up with someone acting pushy and trying to coerce you into sex with their head on your stomach. Also, way to dehumanize him by calling him a bimbo, even though nothing supports that claim. You seem to have blind hatred when it comes to the victims. You have no idea the courage it takes to speak out about sexual harassment and assault, even years after the fact. And just because you think that it doesn't seem like much doesn't make it nothing.

According to the "victim" no sex occurred. Read his story and tell us what if anything qualified as sexual assault in our country in the 1980's. If it did happen I'd be first in line to call for Spacey's head on a platter, but as far as the established account goes it didn't.

 

My defense of Spacey was and still is motivated by the utter absurdity of judging 30+ year-old behavior by current moral standards. E.g. would you like to know how ubiquitous and socially acceptable terms like f@&#!t were in 1985? Watch the cable TV-edited version of the film "Trading Places" for an example. The word black person is bleeped out but the word f@&#!t is left in. Repeatedly. Just like on this site. :smile: j/k Today a different standard exists and without any doubt, 30 years from now we will have yet another standard.

 

Watch a couple episodes of "All in the Family".... with Carrol O'Connor..... If they censored all the words that are unacceptable in todays society, there wouldn't be any dialog left. :)

[Beflire]

I'm honestly just really bored of this conversation. You're not changing my mind, I'm not changing yours. Your arguments mean absolutely nothing to me as mine don't to you. If you really want this to change, go out and do something about it. Ineffectually wingeing about it on a forum will do zero to make any real difference. I don't care, I believe the victims, I want them to have justice. Keep complaining, or don't, but I'm not going to come back.

[HeyYou]

I'm honestly just really bored of this conversation. You're not changing my mind, I'm not changing yours. Your arguments mean absolutely nothing to me as mine don't to you. If you really want this to change, go out and do something about it. Ineffectually wingeing about it on a forum will do zero to make any real difference. I don't care, I believe the victims, I want them to have justice. Keep complaining, or don't, but I'm not going to come back.

That's "Wining", no idea why folks think there is a "g" in there.

 

You want to bypass the constitution, maybe you should move to a country where they don't have a bill of rights......

 

Bye Now.

[TheMastersSon]

IMO the bottom line is that not one of us over the age of 40 could pass the same test currently being given to Spacey, Matt Lauer and the other actual victims of this orchestrated victim hysteria. Garrison Keiller was just fired from his job because he once put his hand on a woman's back to comfort her. No I'm not kidding. So whatever is beyond abject hypocrisy this hate machine has found it.

 

I stand by the first line of this thread. Victim mentality is indeed a bottomless pit imo. Any human being over the age of 40 can make himself or herself a victim of their past life experiences, events from 30 years ago etc, IF THEY CHOOSE TO DO SO. The difference among us is not in these life experiences, only in how we respond to them. And speaking of responses, I hope Minnesota Public Radio and Comcast/NBC have excellent lawyers when the libel, defamation and wrongful termination suits start to fly. Personally I think many of these people will be rehired before that happens, but imo someone has figured out the same scam that once fooled Google into automatically processing 1.5 million DMCA takedown requests (at least 80% of which were perfectly legal under our fair use rights and with no human interaction whatsoever), also works for taking down whichever politicians or celebrities one happens to dislike, have a grudge against or for any other reason. Namely, that a single letter of complaint with no objective evidence whatsoever is enough to get one fired or even destroy one's career in today's hyper-PC world. The longer it drags on the clearer its intent imo, e.g. Nancy Pelosi is now calling for John Conyers to resign etc:

 

http://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-42188130/nancy-pelosi-john-conyers-should-resign-over-sex-harassment-claims

 

Etc. It's the politics of personal destruction gone wild.

Edited December 1, 2017 by TheMastersSon

[twowolves80]

When I heard Garrison Keilor's side of it, and then heard he got fired, I was like...

 

Seriously. This is probably the most wholesome guy on radio, and he apologized immediately for it to the woman (granted, according to him). This sounds like an accident that got blown out of proportion, and now, they want to scrub the name and change it to Town Hall. Pfffff. No reason for any of that.

Political Correctness is strangling actual debate and is the first step on the path to fascism.