Is the ModDrop Controversy Going Too Far?

[tm2dragon]

I already posted my thoughts on another thread, but then realized that they could make for an interesting discussion! I decided to make the thing a full-on thread, and I hope that we can have an interesting talk on the subject. Please though, let's all try to remember to be respectful as we do so! Many of us (myself included), have some pretty strong opinions on the topic, and I'm sure many of them will clash. Still, I think it is a conversation worth having, so I'll get things started with my own take on the matter. Heads up, my OWN opinions are pretty strong and a bit excessive themselves, so take what I have to say with a grain of salt. ( ; Now, onto my own thoughts:

 

 

I've heard several rather strong arguments against the existence of mod-collections; ModDrop in particular, but I'll focus on the concept of mod-packs in general for now I'll try to tackle a few of arguments the ones that leaped out at me. First, let's start with the simple argument that such things are pointless, that people can just pick out and download mods on their own without help, and just ask within the forums about worries of conflicts and such. Sadly, I've found that the "asking for help" part often doesn't work out. In my own experience, asking a thread if I can use one mod with another, or which combination works best, can be frustrating and often fruitless. In many instances, my questions were either ignored, or answered with an "I don't know, try it and find out". There were exceptions of course, but it often seems that authors and users aren't always quick to answer seemingly obvious or uninteresting questions, or do extra footwork that by all rights should be just as easy for the asker to do themselves. Personally, I think that there are a few flaws in this thinking. An important fact to remember is that just because YOU understand something that seems obvious, there are many, MANY others who simply don't have the same level of knowledge. Efforts to self-educate aren't always successful, especially when a person is a casual computer user that lacks an understanding of the fundamentals. One also can't discount the existence of learning disabilities, and that for some folks, getting to the point where they fully understand mods and how to use them safely and effectively is a DAUNTING and seemingly impossible challenge. We (yes, I count myself among this number) are often legitimately lost, and those "stupid questions" are honest requests for assistance. In essence, some people have a harder time learning certain concepts, and their desires shouldn't be disregarded because they can't simply "get good". For these folks that only have a loose understanding of modding and are having difficulty grasping things like "load order" or "dependency", experimentation is not something they can really do with confidence. Not everyone knows how to fix a corrupted save, and fewer still know what steps to take to make sure things don't go sideways in the first place.

For these folks, small bundles of mods that are already pre-approved and organized would be a GODSEND. The terrifying undertaking of modding one's game is now within reach, because more experienced users were willing to help out and do some of the harder work for you! Personally, I think mod-packs are a BRILLIANT idea, and the concept itself should be explored more, not less. The idea itself isn't our problem right now. It's the execution that is causing issues.

 

As for the worries of "mod theft", I sort of understand them in a loose sense. You worked hard on something, you want recognition for it. Totally understandable! It must be irksome to have your mod downloaded from elsewhere with little more than a name-drop and maybe a link to your page....but it ALSO means that people too nervous or inexperienced to try those mods in the first place now have the opportunity to do so safely. True, some (aka many) people are not being very considerate of the system or giving proper recognition to the author themselves (the whole mod-drop controversy is a good indicator of this), but I think we need to keep in mind that these systems are TOOLS. And helpful ones at that! The fact that some people aren't being considerate and misusing modpacks is no reason to dismiss the idea completely. A few false starts is inevitable when expanding on a new or existing concept. That just means we need to rethink our approach, rather than burning the whole system to the ground.

 

As for the different likes and desires in users for the mods they want, and the idea that modpacks aren't practical because of this, I can see how that could be an issue. Still, I think there are some practical solutions. We could start by using smaller packs, and keeping each in a theme. A few mods that improve the UI, HUD, and item sorting in one bundle. A collection of texture improvements for things like roads and trees. A small pack of compatible weather mods. A bundle of 5 or 6 lore friendly weapons. Each with links to the mod page and a reminder to like or donate if you enjoy what you get. I mean, you'll likely still be getting close to the same number of people downloading the mod directly; the confident ones who know what they're doing. On top of that, you'll ALSO get recognition from a whole new category of users, ones who were too intimidated or hesitant to try something in the first place, or too confused by the variety to pick out a single mod. Authors are more likely to GAIN recognition than lose it through mod bundles........at least, if done correctly.

 

Honestly, I think the best way to do this would be to add mod-packs as a subsection of mod sites themselves. Let's say, Nexus adds a section for posting and downloading mod packs. Let people post up their packs in a separate section from the singular mod pages, but since they're doing so on Nexus, proper links, information, and credits would be much easier to handle. Perhaps a like or endorsement of a mod BUNDLE would count as one on the INDIVIDUAL mod pages as well? They can get their recognition, and people who otherwise couldn't enjoy those mods get to experience them properly. Win-win!

 

This is a complicated matter with a LOT of variables, but there ARE solutions. Unfortunately, this brings us to ModDrop. Recent sloppy forays into modpacks through this tool have led to some authors feeling slighted, which is totally understandable. Sadly, this is the Internet, and all it takes is one creator and a few fans getting their dander up to start the mob mentality rolling. People have gone from irritated to downright ANGRY, and it is spreading fast. Many of these haters and protesters aren't even aware of all the facts and issues involved; they just know that folks are upset, and thus they should be upset too. Protest mods are starting to pop up, and they seem almost worryingly popular. As an outside observer, the thing I mainly see is people lashing out, and other people rallying behind them. Personally, I worry a bit about how this whole thing will end. My main worry is that it won't stop gaining traction till the whole "mod-pack" scene has been burned to the ground and that when the torches and pitchforks are finally lowered, it will be quite a while before anyone is willing to give the whole concept another shot.

 

Of course, that's just the worst-case scenario, and pretty unlikely all things considered. :P It's just as likely that the whole thing will blow over in a week or two, but I find that starting a discussion with a bit of hyperbole can get things rolling a bit faster. : ) We'll see if it comes back to bite me in the rear.

 

So, time for thoughts! Chime in, discuss your opinions. Does ModDrop need to die, or does the system just need revamping? Do mod-packs spit in the faces of hard-working mod authors, or are they a concept that has yet to realize it's potential? Am I just an obnoxiously long-winded and totally misinformed attention-seeker who's blowing this whole thing out of proportion? Let's hear it!

[Levionte]

There's no rule that says there can't be mod packs. People combine mods all the time. When I wanted my follower mod to have certain outfits available to them, I asked the people who made those outfits if I could include them. Many of them said yes, some of them didn't, and I respected their decision. I learned how to script in part by downloading mods that did what I wanted to do and recreated their techniques and code. A lot of modders make their source files available so others can see how it works. When I didn't understand something I could just message that person and ask them, and a lot of them would help. And most of the time all they ask in return is that you put their name in your credits section and follow their distribution rules.

 

I would argue the majority of the mods available on the nexus are derivatives of existing work. The key difference is that everyone asked permission. The modding community is built on a foundation of collaboration and respect. Once in awhile you're using a mod created by some video game creator or programmer that's been trained in a thousand languages, I'm sure. But a lot of the time you're using a mod from a guy that lifts boxes in a warehouse for 12 hours a day and watches Gopher's youtube tutorials during his breaks. Once in awhile you'll get an outfit someone actually made from scratch, but most of the time it's just existing pieces that someone mashed together and tweaked - and they can do that because they asked permission. Collaboration and respect. And the moment you break those rules and you steal their work instead of asking for it, you break the foundation of that system and it crumbles.

 

There's no rule that says there can't be mod packs. They're not common because it would quickly turn into an unstable, game-breaking mess. But if you assembled your mods and asked permission from every single person who contributed to that pack, and they all said yes, no one would give you any trouble. But that's not what Mod drop is. Mod drop is specifically designed for people who are not the mod authors to upload other people's work without even asking them, and with no understanding of why that is wrong. Mod drop is designed specifically to exploit the Nexus' inconveniences like copyright and proper crediting to make things more convenient for the user base. And the only way for a mod author to defend their work is to download Mod drop, sign up for their service and sign a EULA forfeiting their rights in hopes of asking them to remove the mod, which they are historically reluctant to do.

 

But where Mod drop is really going to hurt modding is not in the theft of existing mods - you already have those. Even if Elianora takes her mods down, you can still find them on piracy sites, torrent sites, and Mod drop. You don't need to worry about Mod drop destroying the present, but you should be terrified it'll destroy the future.

 

People seem to imply that just because mod authors don't charge money for something that it doesn't have value. They think giving endorsements is meaningless. Even the most popular mods get about a 5% endorsement to unique download rate. You get even less nice comments, suggestions, and bug reports because there's no value in it unless it puts money in someone's pocket. Who cares if no one visits your page, so long as they put a little link in the pile of links on the Mod drop description?

 

What they don't understand is that is all mod authors get in return. For the weeks and months they spent developing their skills during their lunch breaks, the countless hours they spend responding to the same questions that get asked over and over because no one reads the description, to the death threats to them and their family members they get because some Anonymous has different politics than them, all they ask is that you respect their terms. For all the bulls*** that comes along with releasing mods anything to the public, all they ask is the illusion of control over that project which they are letting you use for free. It may be nothing to you, but to them it is literally everything they get in return. And Mod drop takes that away.

 

If Mod drop asked me to make my mods available on their site, I might have said yes. But they didn't. Instead, they asked (paid) Youtubers to upload their favorite mods without permission and with no regard of the implications that has. Personally, I'll keep making mods as long as I enjoy it. But if Mod drop becomes common presence as it's currently constructed, I don't know why I'd release them to the public.

[SKKmods]

If Mod drop asked me to make my mods available on their site, I might have said yes.

 

^ THIS.

 

1. By profession I help clients build awareness and distribution channels to drive product adoption for whatever return/payoff they are after and my return/payoff is filthy moolah so my kids can eat.

 

2. By hobby I mod and the return/payoff is feedback and the pleasure of seeing adoption stats.

 

3. If someone wants to package/re-publish my stuff for free or commercial gain and I loose feedback/adoption stats then a) ask & b) I may want some alternative return/payoff.

 

4. Since there are licensing restrictions on direct commercialization and monetization of CK derived materials that becomes difficult.

 

NET NET ITS MY STUFF SO I CONTROL THE DISTRIBUTION - ASK.

[tm2dragon]

There's no rule that says there can't be mod packs. People combine mods all the time. When I wanted my follower mod to have certain outfits available to them, I asked the people who made those outfits if I could include them. Many of them said yes, some of them didn't, and I respected their decision. I learned how to script in part by downloading mods that did what I wanted to do and recreated their techniques and code. A lot of modders make their source files available so others can see how it works. When I didn't understand something I could just message that person and ask them, and a lot of them would help. And most of the time all they ask in return is that you put their name in your credits section and follow their distribution rules.

 

I would argue the majority of the mods available on the nexus are derivatives of existing work. The key difference is that everyone asked permission. The modding community is built on a foundation of collaboration and respect. Once in awhile you're using a mod created by some video game creator or programmer that's been trained in a thousand languages, I'm sure. But a lot of the time you're using a mod from a guy that lifts boxes in a warehouse for 12 hours a day and watches Gopher's youtube tutorials during his breaks. Once in awhile you'll get an outfit someone actually made from scratch, but most of the time it's just existing pieces that someone mashed together and tweaked - and they can do that because they asked permission. Collaboration and respect. And the moment you break those rules and you steal their work instead of asking for it, you break the foundation of that system and it crumbles.

 

There's no rule that says there can't be mod packs. They're not common because it would quickly turn into an unstable, game-breaking mess. But if you assembled your mods and asked permission from every single person who contributed to that pack, and they all said yes, no one would give you any trouble. But that's not what Mod drop is. Mod drop is specifically designed for people who are not the mod authors to upload other people's work without even asking them, and with no understanding of why that is wrong. Mod drop is designed specifically to exploit the Nexus' inconveniences like copyright and proper crediting to make things more convenient for the user base. And the only way for a mod author to defend their work is to download Mod drop, sign up for their service and sign a EULA forfeiting their rights in hopes of asking them to remove the mod, which they are historically reluctant to do.

 

But where Mod drop is really going to hurt modding is not in the theft of existing mods - you already have those. Even if Elianora takes her mods down, you can still find them on piracy sites, torrent sites, and Mod drop. You don't need to worry about Mod drop destroying the present, but you should be terrified it'll destroy the future.

 

People seem to imply that just because mod authors don't charge money for something that it doesn't have value. They think giving endorsements is meaningless. Even the most popular mods get about a 5% endorsement to unique download rate. You get even less nice comments, suggestions, and bug reports because there's no value in it unless it puts money in someone's pocket. Who cares if no one visits your page, so long as they put a little link in the pile of links on the Mod drop description?

 

What they don't understand is that is all mod authors get in return. For the weeks and months they spent developing their skills during their lunch breaks, the countless hours they spend responding to the same questions that get asked over and over because no one reads the description, to the death threats to them and their family members they get because some Anonymous has different politics than them, all they ask is that you respect their terms. For all the bulls*** that comes along with releasing mods anything to the public, all they ask is the illusion of control over that project which they are letting you use for free. It may be nothing to you, but to them it is literally everything they get in return. And Mod drop takes that away.

 

If Mod drop asked me to make my mods available on their site, I might have said yes. But they didn't. Instead, they asked (paid) Youtubers to upload their favorite mods without permission and with no regard of the implications that has. Personally, I'll keep making mods as long as I enjoy it. But if Mod drop becomes common presence as it's currently constructed, I don't know why I'd release them to the public.

Thank you! Exactly the sort of thing I needed to hear. ^_^ Perspective counts for a lot, and opinions often need other points of view for one to see their flaws. You have successfully won me over on many of your points! I especially felt you made a good point about the importance of authors communicating with their users, and the benefits it offers both ways. I hadn't put quite enough consideration into the potential consequences there, and it deserves quite the rethinking on my part. If Mod-packs DID become commonplace, would far less people end up visiting and commenting on the mod pages themselves? It's worth considering.

 

So in response, I have to agree with you in saying that sites like ModDrop are unfair in their current form. I still think it important to keep in mind the potential usefulness and potential such sites could have. There are a LOT of variables to work out, but I do believe in the potential it shows us. I'll again bring up the idea of Nexus itself hosting a sub-section for mod-packs. There ARE workarounds for many of the issues, ESPECIALLY if the system were linked to the modding site itself! Perhaps, along with things like tags and such an author adds to their mod pages, they have the option to tic a checkbox on their page saying things like "this mod is freely available for use in mod-packs", "this mod requires permission for use in mod packs", or "this mod is not available for use in mod packs"? Yeah, that is kind of a quick and sloppy idea that needs a LOT of work, but I think it is worth looking into. Contributors on ModDrop or similar sites would be able to quickly see which mods they could freely include, contact the authors that requested permissions, and avoid mods entirely that were labeled off limits. If a pack failed to adhere, a complaint could be filed, the pack temporarily hidden, and the source of the failure easily tracked down and confirmed, leading to the pack being deleted should the poster fail to gain proper permissions within a certain time period. Perhaps a "three strikes, you're out" rule, with possible exceptions on a case to case basis? And if the system were a part of Nexus itself, I imagine the whole process could be much more streamlined!

Just some ideas, and you're more than welcome to point out the flaws them that I've likely missed. ^_^ My main point being, I think this event has brought some pretty glaring flaws into the spotlight, but the response may be veering too far in the wrong direction. Now that everyone is becoming aware of this system, this could be a GREAT time for everyone on all sides to take a look at what went wrong, bounce around some ideas, and see what changes could be made to create something better. There is never a "perfect solution" to any problem I'm afraid, and somebody's toes will always get stepped on no matter how fair we try to make things. You are right, there are some VERY REAL potential downsides to the entire CONCEPT of things like ModDrop that need considering, many of which I didn't even think of! The question is, are there ways to fix things, lessons to be learned, or are middle fingers slapped on the front page of Nexus' Fallout 4 section really the proper reaction?

 

On that last note, I'm not really sure if my opinion on that particular mod is biased, but it feels a bit too "Crusadey" for my tastes. The last few times I saw similar protests, it ended with a lot of tears, and some good people bullied off the Web. I doubt most of the folks involved in the ModDrop fiasco even realized people might take issue with their activities, and are probably freaking right the heck out as they've suddenly been thrown into the spotlight and become the target of a whole lot ire. Bet you anything just about ever Mod Showcaser on Youtube has received at least one death threat today thanks to this, and several will probably have their channels nuked via false claims during the fallout (pun not intentional). Mob Mentality is SCARY, and I am a bit worried that's where we're headed.

 

P.S. The paid Youtuber thing is a whole OTHER can of worms that would probably be best suited for someplace else, especially since as a fan of said videos my own thoughts on the topic are both confused and incredibly biased. ^_^;

[Zzyxzz]

ModDrop needs to die, now. Its a bad system. Its build on stolen mods. They earn their money with those mods. The authors are already famous for the s*** he has done before. The whole text i've read was only about: "Hey mod authors stop QQ. You have no rights. ModDrop is the savior for dumb people." There is no place for any discussion. No, there is not. No matter what you guys say. MxR, ESO really s*** on all mod authors out there. They only exist because of the mod authors.

 

"As for the worries of "mod theft", I sort of understand them in a loose sense. You worked hard on something, you want recognition for it."

Nope, we have the copyright. Its a straight rip off.

 

"but it ALSO means that people too nervous or inexperienced to try those mods in the first place now have the opportunity to do so safely."

Everyone is free to download and install mods. Even an idiot can install a mod. The thing is, some people actually care what they do and others don't. There is a forum, people can get help there. Many mod authors provide idiot prove instruction, but guess what, those idiots dont read it. Even modders started as inexperienced individuals. But they invested time, how things work. When you want to work with mods, you have to learn that. Mod packs are not the solution. People will install a pack and some other single mods which just break everything that is within the mod pack. Dumb and lazy users will be dumb and lazy, no matter what you do.

 

I help people who are interested, but not lazy idiots who can't read what you write. Who don't know what a search function is in a forum.

 

 

And btw, once pissed of all mod authors, we will see where you get your mods from. Pray that Elianora doesn't leave the ship, because of such s#*!. When the first big modders disappear, the rest will follow.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Zzyxzz

[tm2dragon]

ModDrop needs to die, now. Its a bad system. Its build on stolen mods. They earn their money with those mods. The authors are already famous for the s*** he has done before. The whole text i've read was only about: "Hey mod authors stop QQ. You have no rights. ModDrop is the savior for dumb people." There is no place for any discussion. No, there is not. No matter what you guys say. MxR, ESO really s*** on all mod authors out there. They only exist because of the mod authors.

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"As for the worries of "mod theft", I sort of understand them in a loose sense. You worked hard on something, you want recognition for it."

Nope, we have the copyright. Its a straight rip off.Â

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"but it ALSO means that people too nervous or inexperienced to try those mods in the first place now have the opportunity to do so safely."

Everyone is free to download and install mods. Even an idiot can install a mod. The thing is, some people actually care what they do and others don't. There is a forum, people can get help there. Many mod authors provide idiot prove instruction, but guess what, those idiots dont read it. Even modders started as inexperienced individuals. But they invested time, how things work. When you want to work with mods, you have to learn that. Mod packs are not the solution. People will install a pack and some other single mods which just break everything that is within the mod pack. Dumb and lazy users will be dumb and lazy, no matter what you do.

Â

I help people who are interested, but not lazy idiots who can't read what you write. Who don't know what a search function is in a forum.

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And btw, once pissed of all mod authors, we will see where you get your mods from. Pray that Elianora doesn't leave the ship, because of such s***. When the first big modders disappear, the rest will follow.

Not quite the "calm, respectful discussion" type of tone I was going for, but I DID get myself into this knowing opinions were strong and emotions high with this topic. If you do want to elaborate on your thoughts here in the future though, please try to tone it down a notch? You've got points to make, and it's great to hear more perspectives, but let's not throw words like "dumb" and "lazy" into the mix. This isn't just me being politically correct here. I've already been swayed by earlier responses and my opinion on the matter has shifted, so you know I and others are ready and willing to change our minds when presented with new facts and perspectives. The way you present your thoughts matters a LOT though, and you can actually end up hurting your argument when you come off too strongly. As your post reads now, it actually appears to validate earlier thoughts expressing that the current situation is growing far too toxic, and that a lot of people are going to end up hurt if things don't calm down soon. Â

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I'm coming at this from a very different perspective than you, and I think that's important to understand. I'll admit freely to being on the less-informed side of things, one of the people who has always had trouble grasping computers, who would be happy to accept shortcuts to complex mod juggling, and who's posts on this site primarily consist of asking questions that others are probably tired of answering. I am, to borrow your terms, one of the "dumb and lazy" ones. I DON'T understand the situation fully, and many others are with me in that regard, just coming in to the talks with the information we've been given, with opinions based on what we've seen. For many, that means they see that something wrong and unfair has occurred to the authors who's work they've enjoyed, and they join in on the outrage. For me, my opinion is mostly based on what I've seen in OTHER communities where mistakes were made, folks messed up, people got mad, and s#*! went down. That never ended well in online communities I've been a part of in the past, and almost always devolved into smear campaigns, death threats, cyber attacks, and bullying that ended with the target of people's ire having their lives upended and forced to remove themselves from the Internet entirely. Some rejoiced at having enacted "justice", many of us were just sad to see things we loved turned upside-down and people we cared about gone forever. So naturally when I see lots of people getting mad and throwing insults at a target here, my past experience leads me to worry things will go down a similar path. My only perspective coming into this is my own, and so my experience is what shapes my opinion. I look to threads like this to talk about the thoughts I've initially formed, read the thoughts of others, be presented with facts, and see where I stand when I feel properly informed.

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Long story short, if you want to convince me that the current outrage is justified and that I should stop worrying that it may go too far, phrase it in a way that DOESN'T insult fellow forum goers, myself included. The truth is, a lot of people WILL be swayed by angry words and hyperbole. This isn't a political thread, so I won't go into my thoughts on THAT growing issue. My point is that I'd rather we not resort to that and keep things at a much calmer tone here, as emotional responses tend to incite other emotional responses, and things like facts and objective viewpoints cease to be a consideration. I say this knowing full well that this post I am typing is a charged emotional response in it's own right, so this whole thing may be a tad hypocritical of me, now that I think about it.

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Sorry, I'll take a breath and try to take it down a notch myself. :sweat: I'm honestly a tad worried I've gotten in over my head starting this topic. Perhaps I'll be a tad less ambitious when choosing a topic for discussion next time? Still, if people do wish to continue sharing thoughts here, let's be respectful to all parties involved.......yes, even the ones you're currently angry with. If you disagree with a person or group's opinions or behavior, however strongly, explain why you believe them to be in error without dehumanizing them or being needlessly insulting.

 

5:00 am Adendum: Cooled down now, and holy crap, I got sucked into that rant and became toxic myself! ð³ IâM PART OF THE PROBLEM!! Sorry all, got carried away it seems. Iâll leave the post as is, as itâs a decent example of how we can get sucked into these debates and end up so far up on our high horse that we canât see weâre somehow managing to come across as a bigger dick then some of the folks activly flinging insults and curses. Welcome to the Internet folks. Tread lightly, itâs far too easy to lose yourself here. Iâm gonna get some sleep. Night all!

[Jojash]

To talk about modpacks for a moment, no Moddrop talk specifically, I can't think of a good way to implement them. What a lot of us mod authors get out of modding is the feedback and interaction with our userbases. A modpack, in any form - hosted on the Nexus, ModDB, ModDrop, you name it - would cut out that communication, or worse complicate it. For example, if a mod in a pack is suspected of causing problems within that pack, many users may go to that mod author's page and complain to them about it, when, in reality, it is not that author's responsibility to ensure compatibility within a pack. Regardless, users will bombard them with requests to do something that, firstly, isn't their responsibility and secondly may not even help. On the other hand, should the pack work exactly as intended, there is still a very real problem in that people wouldn't be leaving comments on these mod authors' pages - even if they wanted to. Assuming that the page itself has a comment section - they comment there, where the authors of the mods can't see it, or if they do see it, won't know who it is addressed to. Alternatively, were we to cut out a comments section on a pack in an effort to encourage direct communication with the authors, that actually only leaves the mod user with three options. 1, Figure out which mods in the pack they're enjoying (this could be out of hundreds of mods), go to those authors' pages and leave a comment (this seems to me to be the least likely scenario). 2, Leave comments on every author's page saying that they're enjoying the pack - this is a little meaningless since the author doesn't even know if you are enjoying their mod in particular. 3, Leave no comments - this requires the least work and is by far the most likely.

 

Should modpacks be implemented regardless and gain popularity, modding then enters a stage of exclusivity, wherein modpacks are the only things being downloaded because they're easier and more convenient. This (I'd imagine) would make modding less attractive to newer modders who won't immediately be able to gain the popularity that a modpack can. One of the biggest things I like about the Nexus is that, no matter who you are or what you upload, your mod gets time on the front page where people can see it - modpacks may well erase that advantage. "Is this new mod in a pack? No? Not interested, moving on".

 

On the face of it, modpacks are a great idea - a bundle of bugfree compatible mods that don't take up too much space in your LO, I don't think I could find a single person who, when presented with that idea would have any problems with it. The issues come from when you start to examine the cost of such a thing for the mod authors, what we put into these mods and what we expect out of them. Modpacks are too impersonal. The convenience that these packs would offer is the very same reason why many authors will not want or accept them.

 

Of course, if anyone can think of a way to cut out those problems from packs, please feel free to say - I honestly cannot conceive of a way to do it without cutting out interaction - if you can, I'd be more than happy to listen.

Edited January 5, 2018 by Jojash

[tm2dragon]

To talk about modpacks for a moment, no Moddrop talk specifically, I can't think of a good way to implement them. What a lot of us mod authors get out of modding is the feedback and interaction with our userbases. A modpack, in any form - hosted on the Nexus, ModDB, ModDrop, you name it - would cut out that communication, or worse complicate it. For example, if a mod in a pack is suspected of causing problems within that pack, many users may go to that mod author's page and complain to them about it, when, in reality, it is not that author's responsibility to ensure compatibility within a pack. Regardless, users will bombard them with requests to do something that, firstly, isn't their responsibility and secondly may not even help. On the other hand, should the pack work exactly as intended, there is still a very real problem in that people wouldn't be leaving comments on these mod authors' pages - even if they wanted to. Assuming that the page itself has a comment section - they comment there, where the authors of the mods can't see it, or if they do see it, won't know who it is addressed to. Alternatively, were we to cut out a comments section on a pack in an effort to encourage direct communication with the authors, that actually only leaves the mod user with three options. 1, Figure out which mods in the pack they're enjoying (this could be out of hundreds of mods), go to those authors' pages and leave a comment (this seems to me to be the least likely scenario). 2, Leave comments on every author's page saying that they're enjoying the pack - this is a little meaningless since the author doesn't even know if you are enjoying their mod in particular. 3, Leave no comments - this requires the least work and is by far the most likely.

 

Should modpacks be implemented regardless and gain popularity, modding then enters a stage of exclusivity, wherein modpacks are the only things being downloaded because they're easier and more convenient. This (I'd imagine) would make modding less attractive to newer modders who won't immediately be able to gain the popularity that a modpack can. One of the biggest things I like about the Nexus is that, no matter who you are or what you upload, your mod gets time on the front page where people can see it - modpacks may well erase that advantage. "Is this new mod in a pack? No? Not interested, moving on".

 

On the face of it, modpacks are a great idea - a bundle of bugfree compatible mods that don't take up too much space in your LO, I don't think I could find a single person who, when presented with that idea would have any problems with it. The issues come from when you start to examine the cost of such a thing for the mod authors, what we put into these mods and what we expect out of them. Modpacks are too impersonal. The convenience that these packs would offer is the very same reason why many authors will not want or accept them.

 

Of course, if anyone can think of a way to cut out those problems from packs, please feel free to say - I honestly cannot conceive of a way to do it without cutting out interaction - if you can, I'd be more than happy to listen.

And like that, my opinion has been fully swayed. Thank you for that! It's amazing what a few well thought out paragraphs can accomplish with people, isn't it? ( :

 

It's admirable that you included the many benefits of such a system along with your critique, and really helped when it came time to offer the other half of the equation. You looked at both sides clearly and without bias, and your argument was much stronger for it. Everything you said sounds 100% reasonable, and I think your point has been well made. Very well done!

 

Now to me: I'd like to say that the potential benefits of a pack system outway the potential costs, but now believe I'd be dishonest in saying so. Nexus is first and foremost a COMMUNITY, and a system that takes away from that, no matter how useful, may not be one worth having.

 

With any luck, some clever individuals may figure out a solution that solves the issues you've pointed out. At the moment, I'm drawing a blank. Even the idea of mod authors who are okay with their works being added to a collection leaving pre-written permission isn't a perfect fix, as it would likely lead to the authors who DIDN'T check that box being pestered and bullied by folks upset with their decision to refrain. All I can really think of is that a stronger effort be made towards cooperative group mods, where modders pool their resources to create their own compilations. Not an original thought I'm afraid, as I've seen it happen before. Several authors create weapon mods, then a few months after release bundle them into a pack. Still, it seems unfair to ask authors to do this sort of thing more often. Not only is it not their job, it is something that can easily be done on the user end by just downloading the mods individually from a list.......not to mention it STILL having the issue of taking attention away from the individual creators.

 

Okay, I'm sold. Mod packs are a complicated issue and simply aren't a fair option as things stand right now. Communication and community come first, and shortcuts that make those obsolete, while helpful, would cause far more harm than good. I hope an answer DOES appear someday, but for now, I'm sold on ModDrop being unviable.

 

SO! You've convinced me that packs are not in the community's best interest, well done! Now, I propose a question that might be even harder for us to speak about. ModDrop may be better off being shut down, but how well are we handling the issue as a community? Wanting to right a wrong is well and good, but are we going about it the right way? I've seen a lot of flared tempers, and while I can appreciate passion, it can lead to poor decisions and regrettable actions. If I had to voice my main concern, it would be that the target for much of the distress has broadened too far, and is threatening to spill over into other ongoing issues. In particular, I'm speaking of the redirected hate towards Youtube content creators. The arguments on THAT matter require far more thought than the ModDrop one, as in this case we are dealing with true individuals, rather than groups or websites. Whether we agree with how they operate or not, the fact is that livelihoods ARE at stake here. These people have roofs over their heads and food to eat due to their content. They've invested large amounts of money on expensive supplies and equipment, and if you've seen some of MxR's live videos showcasing his apartment, you'll see just how much work he's put into creating a proper set-up for his work (his walls are covered end to end with sound-proof foam pads to reduce echoes during recording, for example). People have had beef with other Youtubers in the past, and it's been proven before that a proper smear campaign can lead to the total failure of even the some of the larger channels. It is well and good to say they can just find another job, but I'm not sure that deciding that these people need to switch careers, much less forcing the issue, is our choice to make.

Also, these videos usually have the complete OPPOSITE effect if ModDrop, pointing people towards mods and authors they would have otherwise missed. Thier content could be said to be a service to the community, giving rather than taking. The fact that they get paid for their work and mod authors don't is irksome and unfair, but truthfully I think the mod authors have little to gain by the removal of these channels. Are they profiting via showcasing the work of others? Yes, and I can only imagine how frustrating that must be. Would we be better off with them gone? I personally doubt so. If it weren't for Youtubers like Gopher, I wouldn't be CAPABLE of using many mods here. Without MxR, I wouldn't even know what an ENB is, much less have been exposed to dozens and found favorites. Without Vatiwah's admittedly juvenile sense of humor, I likely wouldn't be having the same level of gleeful fun I currently enjoy with the sillier mods. JuiceHead's channel keeps me informed on upcoming mods and works in progress, showing off mods I can get excited for and look forward to seeing upon their release. I really don't want to see the modding community come bearing down on these people, flooding their mailboxes with death-threats and abusing Youtube's already unstable system to get all their content removed.

 

From what I gathered, the spillover occurred due to several of these Youtubers cooperating with ModDrop in some fashion (the details vary from one account to the next I've read so far, so I'm sadly unclear on the details). Yeah, not a cool move on their part, though the severity of their mistake depends on the details of their involvement, which even the threads discussing the matter often seem unclear on from what I've seen. Hopefully, the backlash will at least help them understand where they messed up, and they won't repeat the actions later. Still, the reactions I've seen are currently being directed at ALL Youtube modders, and not just the parties involved.....though the large percentage does seem to be focused on MxR in particular.

 

So, how badly have these people messed up? Did they understand the full implications of their actions, or were they honestly surprised by the reactions? Should they be given a slap on the wrist, or booted from the community entirely? I personally always veer towards the side of the wrist slap and a sternly wagged finger, as I don't want to see somebody suffer for making a stupid decision. Many posts I've seen are veering towards the other direction, demanding stronger action and that their channels be taken down entirely (with a few more radical outliers suggesting even worse).

 

THIS issue, I repeat, is the more delicate one. As I said, I'm not sure we should have any say in just how they live their lives, so long as they're not being repeatedly malicious or harmful. If they HAVE messed up in some colossal ways, I'm once again more than happy to be corrected, but so far the two things I've been told is that they created some mod-drops, and that they are making a living by pointing at other people's work. The first is a single screw-up that can be taken back and likely forgiven with time, the second is dependent entirely on perspective, and doesn't appear actively harmful (again, feel free to correct me). Many other Youtubers had no part in the ModDrop situation, yet are still being targeted under the same umbrella.

 

I see this as a problem on multiple fronts. There is the ethical issue, on just how much say we should be having on these people's lives and to what extent our actions are justified. Another is that this creates conflict within the community itself, as these people have numerous fans, and they can be just as loud and angry in defense of them as people are to condemn them. Few things are as loud and toxic for a community as a group of truly worked up angry fans, and the clashes will likely be annoyances at best, or leave a nasty stain on our community at worst.

 

Sadly, I again am simply not well informed enough to do much more than state my thoughts as they currently sit. I am curious if people agree with me though. It is possible I am blowing this WAY out of proportion, and the posts I've stumbled upon are actually a minority of trolls that the rest of the community is totally ignoring. It's also possible that I'm being far to wishy-washy, and the issue with these Youtubers really does warrant a strong response. I've been wrong in my views of the current situation before, as earlier posts show, so I wouldn't be surprised if my understanding of the issue is coming from a place of ignorance and naivety. If anyone has their own thoughts on the Youtube angle or more to say on the subject of ModDrop and mod packs, I'm all ears (all eyes? I may be taking that saying too literally. :P).

[Kristofferson777]

Anyone still looking at this thread?

[aurreth]

Anyone still looking at this thread?

 

Skimming through it.

 

1. The mod author owns the copyright to their works.

2. They granted Nexus permission to host that mod under an agreed upon set of conditions.

3. If Nexus changes the conditions, the mod author, as the copyright holder, has the legal right to revoke permission to host the mod.

4. Nexus changed the conditions, and then told the copyright holder they have no right to revoke permissions to host the mod.

5. Nexus is in violation of copyright laws. They have seized the author's work and denied them any control over their own intellectual property. Nexus has essentially claimed that THEY are the copyright holder.

 

I'm not sure why that is so hard for people to understand.

 

Now, ModDrop gets their content by asking users to upload their favorite mods?

 

1. The mod author owns the copyright to their works.

2. Only the author can give permission to upload and host their mods.

3. If anyone uploads the mod without such permission they are in violation of copyright laws.

4. If ModDrop hosts such materials they are hosting, and sharing, illegally obtained materials and are in violation of copyright laws.

 

These aren't my opinions. This is the way copyright works. You don't have to agree with it, heck there are a lot of things in the copyright laws I don't agree with, but it's still the law.

 

And to answer the stupid question, no, the mod author can't make you delete your local copy, any more than Disney can make you destroy the CD of Sleeping Beauty just because they no longer sell the movie. But that doesn't grant you blanket permission to upload the mod wherever you want, just like you don't have blanket permission to rip the Sleeping Beauty CD and upload it to The Pirate Bay. Only the copyright holder can give you permission to share their works, and by default the law says "you cannot share".