Sacrificing Lydia

[budcat]

I know this is late in the conversation and you've gotten a lot of replies but my advice for weaker character builds is this: spamming healing potions. I used to find every modern RPG entirely too difficult until I realized that spamming potions is a built-in cheat code for most games.

 

I like to use characters that wear regular clothes instead of armor, they die easy. I never carry less than a third of my carrying capacity in potions. It's annoying, but knowing that I have sixty healing potions to fall back on lets me casually strut around. Making a good alchemy guy can improve efficiency and cut down on carrying weight.

Edited April 3, 2012 by budcat

[Zemica]

Going to a forge to master the art of smithing is a good start for most warrior characters. Exploring along the road side picking flowers and using them to brew up some potions and good leveling if you wish to be a mage. If you are wishing to be a assassin or thief; start sneaking and stealing, join up with either the Dark Brotherhood or the Thieves Guild, and try not to kill random people, you might find out later that they were needed in a side quest. Rather, practice your art of the blade on some bandit, that way at least you will get some gold in return from some grateful villager or merchant. Lastly, from my experience playing Slyrim I have learned that that the best class (at least for me) is the Spell Sword/ Battle Mage. Teaming a sword and magic together is a deadly combination for your foes.

[Lord Garon]

I know this is late in the conversation and you've gotten a lot of replies but my advice for weaker character builds is this: spamming healing potions.

...

 

That's what I HAD to do to stay alive. And to keep them fighting and the bad guys off me, my follower needed health potions as well. But its not a solution; its really the problem, or a good example of it. You gain too many levels with alchemy and, like an addict, it becomes a vicious circle. "Oh man, I NEED those alchemy perks to keep ahead of the game." Pretty soon, your other skills are way behind and 1-shot mobs are all over the place. Restore health only works when there's health to restore. Oblivion, for example, did it a little better. I put common activities as Minor Skills so I didn't level with them by accident. Can't do that in Skyrim. Testing, experimenting, and making lots of potions puts you behind the level curve, unless you have an alchemist build going. Same with all the other "skills" which level you up when you least suspect or want it.

 

Despite all my whining, I branched my character off on a more-or-less pure combat track. I've got two save file branches now to see how two different character builds fare in identical quests. Already, its no contest. My "preferred" guy is a heavy magic user potion addict. His life is still frustrating even with combat skill training every level (if I can). The Stealth Archer clone is kicking gluteus maximus. In short order, he got an enchanted bow that deals about 100 damage a shot along with the 3X hidden stealth perk. Even high rank draugrs drop in one shot now. He got our first Dragon Priest by himself (followers can't do stealth). My regular guy is still fighting the Conjurers just inside the main entrance. With Lydia.

 

To be honest, the archer is as boring as my mage is frustrating. I can sneak everywhere, never get ambushed, and just plonk mobs from a distance. I guess the middle ground would be a melee character. I could fork a third guy but my starting point is a wimp at level 21; don't think I can catch up melee skills as fast as stealth/archery. I actually LIKE sweating it out through a dungeon with the mage cause I know that just about anything can kill him. I've almost jumped out of my chair many times getting "surprised" by something. Unfortunately, the bosses are almost certain to be beyond him. The archer has to run away from melee, but his stealth helps him hide again quickly. I think stealth is OP in this game.

 

Give up enough personal immersion and Skyrim is easy, if not boring. Role play too much and the frickin thing is frustratingly impossible. Its a very strict world with a great illusion of openness. Well, back to the mage battle. Took all of Lydia's melee weapons away cause she ALWAYS runs out into my line of fire. She always says, "I have your back." Maybe she'll stay back there and actually watch it with only a bow in her inventory.

[GnatGoSplat]

If you just need a little help, go through the Thieves Guild quest up to the point where you meet Mercer Frey at Snow Veil Sanctum, then don't go in. He'll follow you around, and he's a very strong follower. For some reason, Mercer wouldn't unlock the door at Snow Veil, so I was stuck with him, but turned out he's quite an asset. Sometimes he makes things a little too easy, but I prefer using him over cheaty console commands or turning down difficulty. Edited April 5, 2012 by GnatGoSplat

[Lord Garon]

If you just need a little help, go through the Thieves Guild quest up to the point where you meet Mercer Frey at Snow Veil Sanctum, then don't go in. He'll follow you around, and he's a very strong follower.

...

 

I've about had it with followers. They're always getting into the line of fire of my mage and archer. I don't have the latest patch yet, but followers also suck at stealth. If anyone has a comment on the latest patch stealth fix for followers, I'd love to hear it.

 

I played Oblivion today just to get that old TES game feeling back cause Skyrim is just frustrating me out of interest. And it worked. I have a heavily modded FCOM Oblivion setup which I play with the difficulty almost maxed out. Its REALLY hard compared to vanilla Oblivion; gotta choose your battles carefully. But its not nearly as difficult as Skyrim on Adept. I know that must sound stupid cause OOO is notorious for being "difficult". Had a couple epic battles with Balrogs around Oblivion Gates. Those fights lasted a LONG time, wore out my armor, deleted my potions, sucked out most of my soul gems, and were a lot of fun. I eventually won and was psyched to kick some butt in Skyrim. Loaded up, got ready, even fortified myself with potions, opened the fort door, and died in about two seconds to a couple bandits. I realized something then; after the Oblivion fight, I felt like I had "done something". I got to use particular strategies and tactics against particular mobs, got beat up severely, but barely survived in the end cause I had the chance to figure out how best to fight the bad guys. I also realized that Skyrim doesn't give you that chance. Oscuro and Martigen make tough mobs; it takes a lot to kill them. But they don't 1-shot my characters. If I run into a tough mob in Oblivion, I have a chance, at least, to "get away". I can swill potions and run. Cast healing spells and run. I can "do" things even while running away to make my retreat successful.

 

In the Skyrim battle, both bandits were archers and each one hit me for about 100 damage. Whack, whack, dead. In Oblivion, I know its time to go when my best shot just pisses the bad guy off. I don't get that chance to run in Skyrim. Skyrim mobs aren't that tough (hard to kill), they're too powerful (deal too much damage). Fights aren't epic, they're epically short. Now, I also realize that the difficulty level adjusts this exact thing in the game. But, the developers (I hope) made the default difficulty like most other games; way too easy once you "figure out" how to play. Then you can crank it up. I can't figure Skyrim out. Fights last only a couple hits; either the mob is trash and dies, or they are so powerful that I die. And its almost always the latter. I REALLY want to figure out how to play the way that the developers designed Adept difficulty to be played. The only character I have that wins more than looses is the stealth archer. And its because of stealth, not archery or other skills.

 

I keep looking for hints, but always wind up with "max out this-or-that". I hate that, but I tried it with the guy that just got killed. He's a warrior now at level 17, but has all his melee skills as high as I could make them without actually power-leveling (heavy armor, block, one handed). We don't do anything but fight unless we have to in order to minimize non-melee skill leveling. I would say he's less effective than my gimp mage was at the same level.

 

I'll ask straight out; what skills and perks are most important and how high do you have to get them in order to complete the common quests? I have fine or superior enchanted armor and weapons, but cannot complete most quests. I only get through the ones I have because I do them over so much. How do you guys/girls do it?

 

--- Clueless from Whiterun

[groupoffriends]

I don't even like Lydia, myself, so when I get her I just let her go wherever she wants (Breezehome if I own it, or she stays in Dragonreach), and I never take her along on quests. I hate followers in Skyrim. They are just annoying, get in the way, blow my cover, bump me around, and push me off cliffs (all because of an abysmally-designed follow AI).

 

Why you would want to import her into Oblivion is beyond me, groupoffriends, is beyond me. If you want a truly well-designed female companion for Oblivion, then look up Vilja. Not only does she have a custom-designed and very extensive AI, but she's fully voice-acted, and doesn't have any of the standard follower-based problems that plague followers in both Oblivion and Skyrim. This is a testament to the team that works on Vilja. I'd much rather see her imported into Skyrim, and I might actually start using followers (or at least Vilja).

 

I see your point. Emma's Vilja in Oblivion is wonderful with her functions, quest, and extensive dialogue. I really like llama's Willow, in FNV, too - they're both way ahead of the vanilla companions. If Emma or llama ever do companions for Skyrim, it will be a great day indeed!

 

You can make your game more and more difficult in the options, Novice, Apprentice, Adept, Expert, Master levels, but for a *real* challenge, the toughest challenge of all, get a vanilla companion and try to keep them alive! They jump between you and your enemy just as you fire your arrow! And they knock you sideways as they rush past you to sacrifice themselves on the enemy's blade or horns! Sometimes they make you think "If the enemy doesn't kill them, I will!"

 

But I really *like* Lydia, for some reason. Skyrim wouldn't be the same without her. She was programmed to be marriageable, too, but due to a programming error, she doesn't respond to the Amulet of Mara, and each new upgrade that is released has ignored the problem.

[RedRavyn]

I ran with Lydia for a few "personal quests" in and around Whiterun during my first playthrough. I was doing mostly hunting and gathering and came across a giant camp. Keep in mind that this was my first playthrough. I knew nothing about Skyrim, save what I had learned while getting from Helgen, through Riverwood, and to Whiterun. I was, of course, instantly spotted by the giant and his mammoth, since I had managed to wander right into his camp and found myself next to his chest, so he and his beast went aggro on me. The first thing Lydia did was to jump into the thick of things and take on the giant, single-handed, while I was backpedaling to get a safe place for sniping with my bow. That was the point at which I realized that Bethesda had not improved followers from Oblivion. Lydia died, I hightailed it out of Dodge, and never looked back on followers in Skyrim, again.

 

To be fair, I've let a couple follow me around a bit, but I find them much more useful as cannon fodder than as allies. I play stealth-based characters. I expect to be seen. When that happens, I retreat into the shadows and become unseen, again. Followers will instantly blow your cover and any chance you have of regaining any stealth advantage. I hated them in Oblivion, with but a few notable exceptions, and I hate them even more in Skyrim.

 

Anyway, Lord Garon has a problem. I'll try to address his issues.

 

I've been playing on Adept level since day one. This is my eighth playthrough and I've beaten the Main Quest once. I've beaten all the primary questlines (Thieves Guild, Dark Brotherhood, Bard's College, College of Winterhold) at least twice. I've beaten all the Daedric quests at least once. I've beaten most of the quests centering around the hold capitols at least three times. I'm really not having the problem staying alive that you are, and I honestly don't know why you're having that problem.

 

Let me tell you about my basic build.

 

I play a Khajiit. Why? Well, I thought they were cute in Oblivion (they really were) and figured they would be in Skyrim. I was wrong, but they have some perks, that fit right into my playstyle as a stealth specialist. I also like that their unarmed attack (15 points of damage) outclasses any weapon you'll find until you can start finding stuff better than iron and you can improve it at the smithing stations. Frankly, I don't really think that, in the long run, your character's race makes much difference. I just like the Khajiit because of some very early advantages, especially when coupled with Thief's Stone benefits.

 

You have to have a range attack in this game, and it has to be an effective one. As a pure melee warrior you're going to Hell in a handbasket. You'll encounter enemies who can take you out from a distance. That's just the way the game is designed. I generally play around an archer-battlemage build. I'll experiment a bit with that from one playthrough to another, but my M.O. is take out my enemies from afar, or at least weaken them enough to make it easy to kill them in melee. A combination of bow and destruction magic works ideally in this game.

 

I use light armor -- exclusively. In fact, I never wear anything but leather until very late in the game, when I've improved my Smithing skill to the point at which I can make dragonscale armor. This means I do whatever I need to do to create a full set of leather armor while I'm still in Riverwood. If that means doing a bit of hunting to get pelts, then I do it, although if I have enough money I'll just buy the leather I need.

 

While I'm at it, I grind my Smithing just high enough to start making and improving steel armor and weapons. Then I make myself a steel sword and improve it. I improve my leather armor. It won't be much of an improvement, but at early levels even a few points can make all the difference in the world.

 

Once I have a steel sword (I've experimented with ordinary sword and shield, and I prefer greatswords in this game) and my leather armor, I'm ready to tackle real enemies -- i.e., I head to Bleak Falls Barrow. Most of your opponents at this point have, at best, iron weapons and fur armor, neither improved (of course). This gives you a decided advantage early in the game. Keep your Smithing skill high enough to maintain this edge, and improve your gear whenever you get a chance. This is a game in which a minute advantage can mean the difference between winning and losing a battle.

 

Don't forget magic, even if you're going to play a warrior character. Casting Muffle or Oakskin before getting involved in a fight can give you a decided edge. You can whittle down an enemy mage's Magicka with Sparks (which you can get off the mage's corpse in Helgen on your way out). Frostbite can slow an advancing enemy down while you're backpedaling. Just about everything takes DOT (damage over time) from Flames. And like your gear, don't forget to upgrade your spells whenever you get a chance. Remember, you can buy spells from the Riverwood Trader. Do it at your earliest opportunity.

 

Stats: I try to stay balanced. I generally let Health trail Magicka by ten points early in the game. I'll let Stamina trail Health by the same amount. Later on the game I'll up those values to 20, maybe even 30. I'm not primarily a melee fighter, and two-handed power attacks take a lot of Stamina. I use that greatsword for finishing off an opponent -- not for the main battle. With improved armor I can afford to concentrate a bit more on Magicka than on Health.

 

Perks: I honestly don't use most of them. I put points into basic Stealth, One-Handed, Archery, Destruction, and Smithing early on. I'll try to get the damage bonus perks out of the Stealth tree. Most of the rest of it is fluff that can wait until later in the game. I seldom put any points into One-Handed beyond the basic one. I'll fill out the Archery tree up to getting critical hit bonuses and Eagle Eye. Again, the rest is fluff. Save it for later. I'll pour a lot of points into Destruction. Keep up-to-date on the main branch (Novice - Apprentice - Adept, etc.), but don't forget to buff your basic elemental magic. I never bother with the higher nodes on those three branches. You want Dual-Casting as soon as you can get it. Stun-locking a tough opponent can make a fatal encounter easy to overcome.

 

Alchemy: Don't grind it. Just use it as you move along in the game. I look for the ingredients I know will make potions that I use. I like poisons -- Slow and Paralysis poisons can give you an overwhelming edge at any level of the game, especially if you combine those effects with Lingering Damage Health and Damage Health. I make potions that boost my Stealth and Archery skills, and give my Invisibility. Make random potions out of all your other ingredients and sell them for a good profit.

 

Enchanting: This is a must-have, but one that you can put off until later in the game. Don't waste points in Enchanting perks until you're well-along and have gotten your basic survival skills buffed out. Then start grinding that tree up to and including Dual-Enchanting. Frankly, at that point in the game you can create weapons and armor which far-outstrip anything your opponents can have.

 

You'll probably find your first enchanted weapon (a bow) at the top-most tower of Valtheim Towers. It's leveled, but an enchanted bow at the earliest point in the game can give you a real advantage over just about everything. Clear this area at your earliest opportunity, even before you get a mission to kill the bandit leader, there. Save your game before you exit Whiterun to go there, though. I'm not sure how the game handles this, but it's possible that the exact bow is determined upon cell loading, and I'm not sure where that cell begins. You can get some junk (like bows that make your opponents flee -- they're dead, what's the use in that?). You might have to try several times before you get a good one (elemental damage -- any type). Get it before you take on the main quest. It'll help you with your first dragon fight.

 

I could go on-and-on, but I think this is enough for starters. The key, I think, to winning in this game is to stay just one step ahead of your opposition in terms of the gear you have and the spells you know. And, as Melka, the friendly hagraven in "The Affairs of Hagravens" says: "Careful here. There's a trick to this. The trick is to not bleed to death! Ah, there's a lever, too." In other words, you have to use every single tool at your disposal -- and that includes your brains. Try to hack and slash your way through Skyrim and you'll probably wind up bleeding to death.

[GnatGoSplat]

I've about had it with followers. They're always getting into the line of fire of my mage and archer. I don't have the latest patch yet, but followers also suck at stealth. If anyone has a comment on the latest patch stealth fix for followers, I'd love to hear it.

 

Mercer Frey is essential so no big deal if he gets in the way, you can't kill him. He doesn't really seem to get in the way much, either. He's only equipped with a sword and a dagger (and dual-wields them), so he prefers up close combat and he's very fast and aggressive. He can easily keep an enemy distracted, making it easy to launch spells and arrows at the enemy from a distance. He's almost TOO good, he often has weaker enemies dead before I can even get my weapons unsheathed. Sometimes he'll disappear because he's gone into another room, killing enemies before I've even seen them. I'll then mosey on into where he was, and find 3 or 4 draugr already laying dead on the ground. He also doesn't seem to affect stealth. I've never had sneak or pickpocket fail with him around. Give him a shot, I don't think he's like any other ordinary follower and if you want rid of him, just get through Snow Veil Sanctum.

 

I've pretty much finished every major quest line with him, and have now started his quest and will have to fight him. If the way he fights is any indication, I have a feeling it's not going to end well for me. I've already worked up my Conjuration to 100, gotten the Twin Souls perk, and gotten the Dead Thralls spell in preparation!

[tiy991]

Erm... I never have any problems... I've got a bunch of combat immersion mods on and I have it set on Expert and I hardly ever die.. The most "god" thing I'm using is daggercraft. My advice, get some potions, learn to cook, learn to dodge/evade/run and be smart. It's not horribly hard, just constantly keep everyone at an arm's length or greater, and run in a zig zag manner. That's what I do and I only use two daggers :3. Oh, forgot to mention, I'm more of the assassin type character. I use daggers, stealth, and bows. So I take forever, but I don't get hurt much. If you're going for neanderthal type melee, make an orc and give him a warhammer, pop racial, walk out with lewts.

[Lord Garon]

RedRavyn - Seriously; thanks for taking the time to make such a detailed post. You're awesome and I appreciate the effort. I'm a little flabbergasted that you (and others) get so far with so little. That's why I will take your advice to heart and see if can salvage a current character. If not, I might try one more new guy and see what happens.

 

Gnat - I'll give that guy a shot. I seem capable of epic fail no matter who is covering my back. I'll get back to you, thx.

 

tiy991 - Yeah, I've had the most luck with my stealth archer. I mentioned before that, IMHO, Stealth may be a little OP. I'm trying to find that "sweet spot" which will let me play the character I have the most fun with. But I think you have great advice; be smart. Geez, maybe its not Skyrim at all, maybe its .... Can't say it.

 

Got sidetracked again when I hit a basket laying around a troll cave with a lightning bolt. Pzing - gone. That sucker took off like Lydia being hit by a giant. It disappeared over a hilltop on the far side of a river. Its pretty funny to watch if you haven't shocked a basket out doors. I started playing "Zap the can" back to town. Tried jugs, kettles, bones; anything I could find laying around outside. Trap rocks are pretty cool and I could really get them going. The point: If I zap a trap rock into a bad guy, will it do damage? I've moved those rocks out of the way before with Sparks, but never sent one rolling into a room at high velocity. Would High Speed Careening Boulders of Electric Death be worth a try? "Lydia dear, would you stand right over there for me? Yeah, just a little more to your right. Great! Hold still for just a second." ZZZZZZZZapppppp!