Limited Vortex alpha release today, full release soon

[Oblitus]

In response to post #57249476.

kamikatze13 wrote: Having missed the opportunity to get under the precious 1000, I had to quench my thirst by looking for screenshots of Vortex, and the first thing that struck me in particular:

We now have a bunch of tabs.
We have a `Mods` tab and a `Plugins` tab - but we do have to swtich between them, i.e. we do not have them side-by-side, correct?
And to access tools, we head over to the `Dashboard`?

What is the reasoning behind this? Cause my HCI prof would be steaming if he'd seen this UI design.

Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient, so to have side-by-side you'll need a 4k monitor. And yes, Vortex UI is painful to use.

[prinyo]

In response to post #57249476. #57250746 is also a reply to the same post.

kamikatze13 wrote: Having missed the opportunity to get under the precious 1000, I had to quench my thirst by looking for screenshots of Vortex, and the first thing that struck me in particular:

We now have a bunch of tabs.
We have a `Mods` tab and a `Plugins` tab - but we do have to swtich between them, i.e. we do not have them side-by-side, correct?
And to access tools, we head over to the `Dashboard`?

What is the reasoning behind this? Cause my HCI prof would be steaming if he'd seen this UI design.

Oblitus wrote: Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient, so to have side-by-side you'll need a 4k monitor. And yes, Vortex UI is painful to use.

> "Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient"

I was thinking the same looking at a screenshot of the plugins tab - all those white spaces that mean you need to scroll way more and you see less plugins at a glance (less plugins visible at the same time). My mind breaks with data been presented in such an inefficient way. Hope there is a "compact view". As Google offered when they inserted similar white spaces in the mail listing and people started complaining.
Looking at the screenshots it seems that Vortex is targeted exclusively at casual users. Edited February 2, 2018 by prinyo

[CodeNamed1]

Why you say "ailing" NMM :D?? I have been using only it and it has mostly worked like a charm :)

 

(BTW i''m still a newcomer)

[Tannin42]

In response to post #57249476. #57250746, #57251226 are all replies on the same post.

kamikatze13 wrote: Having missed the opportunity to get under the precious 1000, I had to quench my thirst by looking for screenshots of Vortex, and the first thing that struck me in particular:

We now have a bunch of tabs.
We have a `Mods` tab and a `Plugins` tab - but we do have to swtich between them, i.e. we do not have them side-by-side, correct?
And to access tools, we head over to the `Dashboard`?

What is the reasoning behind this? Cause my HCI prof would be steaming if he'd seen this UI design.

Oblitus wrote: Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient, so to have side-by-side you'll need a 4k monitor. And yes, Vortex UI is painful to use.

prinyo wrote: > "Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient"

I was thinking the same looking at a screenshot of the plugins tab - all those white spaces that mean you need to scroll way more and you see less plugins at a glance (less plugins visible at the same time). My mind breaks with data been presented in such an inefficient way. Hope there is a "compact view". As Google offered when they inserted similar white spaces in the mail listing and people started complaining.
Looking at the screenshots it seems that Vortex is targeted exclusively at casual users.

The UI was never going to please everyone, that's why we have a theme editor. You're welcome. ;)

[Robbie922004]

In response to post #57246031. #57249411 is also a reply to the same post.

Tannin42 wrote:

 

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146 are all replies on the same post.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

 

 

No, you can set sorting rules inside Vortex through a drag&drop interface. Or you can set multiple rules at once (click on dependency icon, click edit, check all the mods that the selected one needs to go after, confirm). Or you set global priorities.

The sorting itself then happens automatically as necessary (e.g. before starting the game) but you can also manually trigger it (and disable the automatism).

 

This is system may be different from what users are used to but for the vast majority of users it will be quicker and more robust because

a) you can rerun loot after adding more mods without losing your manual adjustments because loot doesn't replace your adjustments any more

b) you can disable mods or temporarily uninstall them and when they're back, the sort will put them into the place you put them

c) You only enforce the dependencies you actually care about, so when setting rules you can focus on the plugins in question

d) For less experienced users it will usually just work

 

Yes, it is something you have to get used to. Yes, it may be offputting if you're used to (and have the knowledge to) manually arrange all plugins. And yes, it will be more work up front.

But if you're a normal user and have to rearrange only a few of your plugins this will save you time and grieve in the long run.

 

And besides my hope is that this will make it easier to share knowledge. That is: If there is a pair of plugins that loot doesn't arrange correctly, currently a mod author will probably put it into the mod description, hoping users will read it and then everyone has to do the ordering themselves.

When people set up rules in vortex, my hope is that more of these rules get committed to the loot masterlist and thereby shared with the rest of the community. (Vortex doesn't currently support this, but a "propose this rule for the masterlist" button shouldn't be too complicated)

sopmac45 wrote: Thanks so much Tannin42 ....
""No, you can set sorting rules inside Vortex through a drag&drop interface. Or you can set multiple rules at once (click on dependency icon, click edit, check all the mods that the selected one needs to go after, confirm). Or you set global priorities.
The sorting itself then happens automatically as necessary (e.g. before starting the game) but you can also manually trigger it (and disable the automatism)."""

... for an experienced player, the above should be simple. However, those are few in compare to the vast majority of players than do not know anything about dependencies or which mod should go first and / or last. It will be a headache for the great majority instead a nice interaction with the program which should translate in a much better experience to play the game.

I do agree with you that players must read the mod descriptions to find out the mod author suggestions about load order and compatibilities .. but, not all of the mods out there include those important recommendations. The other thing is that Vortex should sort the load order automatically based on dependencies that we, the players, should not deal with it .. UNLESS we have the knowledge ( Vortex already has this function but should be optional and one of the necessary steps to setup the load order in the first place ); from that standpoint, we should be able to manually place some mods in the right load order based on what the mod author suggested, save the profile and if you add more mods, that new mod SHOULD be added automatically in the right / correct load order without interfering with game codes.

I do not know if what I suggested is possible. Perhaps, each modder should add a code in their mods that should be read by Vortex and base on that code ( dependency ), Vortex will place that mod, in the right load order. Let' say that this mod falls into the Environmental category, then, it should be placed kind of on the top of the load order after the Bug Fixes category ( unofficial patch, etc ) automatically by Vortex. How to automate this ? For me, the mod author should include a code ( previously arranged by you Tanning, with some kind of link or something that Vortex use to place that mod in the correct load order based on what the mod author has written thru his/her code inside the mod ) and then Vortex will just place it accordingly. If a mod requires to be placed on the top / bottom of the load order, then, the mod author should also write the code inside their mod so Vortex will read it, apply it and place it in the right load order.

NMM does this to a certain point. For example, Lanterns of Skyrim, as soon as you add this mod, NMM place it on the very top and above the Unofficial Patch. So, my question and my concern is that all mods ( and this is a job not for you but modders, but obviously, because you are Vortex's dad, it should come from you the type of code that should be written in every single mod so Vortex can apply it to the right load order ) should include that code. If a mod does not include that code, then Vortex should reject it.

Yes, a lot of modders will be complaining about this but if you want your mod to be loaded and endorsed, then do your best for your mod to work properly. It should not be the other way around and place the ball in the player's field ( you need to read this or that, you need to do this or that, watch tutorials, learn, - NOTE ON THIS : I am not against it, on the contrary but again, it should come from top to bottom not the other way IMHO ). Think about the thousands of players that just want a program that automatically order his/her mods accordingly ? Others more experienced, should also have all the tweaks and functions at their disposal to do whatever they want but again, those are a few in compare. I am leaning toward the majority on this.

For me as any other player, a proper load order is a must have and Vortex, somehow, one way or another, should do this for all of us. Honestly, LOOT should be integrated automatically inside Vortex, so no more hitting LOOT to apply load orders. Possible ? Absolutely possible and you know it better than me. But Vortex should be much better than LOOT in the way that I mentioned above.

Forgive me if I am not making any sense here or asking for something that is not possible from programming standpoint. I know it is possible because I study programming long ago but for other reasons in my life, I could not continue but I kind of understand programming. The most important think in NMM, MO ( I never used it btw ) and now Vortex, is to be able to arrange our load order accordingly and automatically. Same concept about cars : some are automatic and some are manuals. It is up to the person who will buy a car if that person prefers automatic or not. We should please both sides Tannin. If Vortex already include that feature, please forgive me and thanks again for your hard work. :)

This is system may be different from what users are used to but for the vast majority of users it will be quicker and more robust because
[snip]

The new system is a fine complementary system to the old way, but I don't think it's wise to fully replace manual mod reordering with it. It's great for long-term mods that you're going to have around in your load order after many shuffles, but it's not so good for when you just want to quickly stick a mod in a different spot in your load order. And that's a crucial part of my own testing process. It's true that I haven't tried it myself but I've been told by other users in exact detail (including screenshots) how it works, and it's far less convenient to me to have to set up a LOOT rule to move something somewhere than to just click and drag it, or use the arrows.

I'm not dogging on the new way at all, I just strongly feel that both options should be available. The LOOT rules method doesn't actually stop me from changing my load order manually, it just adds an extra step by forcing me to load the game I'm playing in order to do it since it's a native part of the launcher for Bethesda titles and XCOM among others. One isn't really a replacement for the other, because they have two different utilities. And as stated, regardless of whether or not it's supported by Vortex, I'm still going to tweak my load order manually from time to time. It would be better if I could do it all from the same place.

[Tannin42]

In response to post #57246031. #57249411, #57252891 are all replies on the same post.

Tannin42 wrote:

 

In response to post #57227931. #57228261, #57231896, #57231991, #57232121, #57237146 are all replies on the same post.

Maybe people are reporting it wrong, but it's my understanding from folks who have tried it that the only way to adjust load order is to run LOOT and then set manual sorting rules on anything that's not handled correctly. Manually dragging and dropping mods to new positions is not a feature.

If this is the case I can't see this going very far. Being able to manually adjust load order by drag n drop is considered a basic feature for any mod manager. LOOT simply won't cut it because it's not supposed to be the end of the process, merely the starting point.

 

 

No, you can set sorting rules inside Vortex through a drag&drop interface. Or you can set multiple rules at once (click on dependency icon, click edit, check all the mods that the selected one needs to go after, confirm). Or you set global priorities.

The sorting itself then happens automatically as necessary (e.g. before starting the game) but you can also manually trigger it (and disable the automatism).

 

This is system may be different from what users are used to but for the vast majority of users it will be quicker and more robust because

a) you can rerun loot after adding more mods without losing your manual adjustments because loot doesn't replace your adjustments any more

b) you can disable mods or temporarily uninstall them and when they're back, the sort will put them into the place you put them

c) You only enforce the dependencies you actually care about, so when setting rules you can focus on the plugins in question

d) For less experienced users it will usually just work

 

Yes, it is something you have to get used to. Yes, it may be offputting if you're used to (and have the knowledge to) manually arrange all plugins. And yes, it will be more work up front.

But if you're a normal user and have to rearrange only a few of your plugins this will save you time and grieve in the long run.

 

And besides my hope is that this will make it easier to share knowledge. That is: If there is a pair of plugins that loot doesn't arrange correctly, currently a mod author will probably put it into the mod description, hoping users will read it and then everyone has to do the ordering themselves.

When people set up rules in vortex, my hope is that more of these rules get committed to the loot masterlist and thereby shared with the rest of the community. (Vortex doesn't currently support this, but a "propose this rule for the masterlist" button shouldn't be too complicated)

sopmac45 wrote: Thanks so much Tannin42 ....
""No, you can set sorting rules inside Vortex through a drag&drop interface. Or you can set multiple rules at once (click on dependency icon, click edit, check all the mods that the selected one needs to go after, confirm). Or you set global priorities.
The sorting itself then happens automatically as necessary (e.g. before starting the game) but you can also manually trigger it (and disable the automatism)."""

... for an experienced player, the above should be simple. However, those are few in compare to the vast majority of players than do not know anything about dependencies or which mod should go first and / or last. It will be a headache for the great majority instead a nice interaction with the program which should translate in a much better experience to play the game.

I do agree with you that players must read the mod descriptions to find out the mod author suggestions about load order and compatibilities .. but, not all of the mods out there include those important recommendations. The other thing is that Vortex should sort the load order automatically based on dependencies that we, the players, should not deal with it .. UNLESS we have the knowledge ( Vortex already has this function but should be optional and one of the necessary steps to setup the load order in the first place ); from that standpoint, we should be able to manually place some mods in the right load order based on what the mod author suggested, save the profile and if you add more mods, that new mod SHOULD be added automatically in the right / correct load order without interfering with game codes.

I do not know if what I suggested is possible. Perhaps, each modder should add a code in their mods that should be read by Vortex and base on that code ( dependency ), Vortex will place that mod, in the right load order. Let' say that this mod falls into the Environmental category, then, it should be placed kind of on the top of the load order after the Bug Fixes category ( unofficial patch, etc ) automatically by Vortex. How to automate this ? For me, the mod author should include a code ( previously arranged by you Tanning, with some kind of link or something that Vortex use to place that mod in the correct load order based on what the mod author has written thru his/her code inside the mod ) and then Vortex will just place it accordingly. If a mod requires to be placed on the top / bottom of the load order, then, the mod author should also write the code inside their mod so Vortex will read it, apply it and place it in the right load order.

NMM does this to a certain point. For example, Lanterns of Skyrim, as soon as you add this mod, NMM place it on the very top and above the Unofficial Patch. So, my question and my concern is that all mods ( and this is a job not for you but modders, but obviously, because you are Vortex's dad, it should come from you the type of code that should be written in every single mod so Vortex can apply it to the right load order ) should include that code. If a mod does not include that code, then Vortex should reject it.

Yes, a lot of modders will be complaining about this but if you want your mod to be loaded and endorsed, then do your best for your mod to work properly. It should not be the other way around and place the ball in the player's field ( you need to read this or that, you need to do this or that, watch tutorials, learn, - NOTE ON THIS : I am not against it, on the contrary but again, it should come from top to bottom not the other way IMHO ). Think about the thousands of players that just want a program that automatically order his/her mods accordingly ? Others more experienced, should also have all the tweaks and functions at their disposal to do whatever they want but again, those are a few in compare. I am leaning toward the majority on this.

For me as any other player, a proper load order is a must have and Vortex, somehow, one way or another, should do this for all of us. Honestly, LOOT should be integrated automatically inside Vortex, so no more hitting LOOT to apply load orders. Possible ? Absolutely possible and you know it better than me. But Vortex should be much better than LOOT in the way that I mentioned above.

Forgive me if I am not making any sense here or asking for something that is not possible from programming standpoint. I know it is possible because I study programming long ago but for other reasons in my life, I could not continue but I kind of understand programming. The most important think in NMM, MO ( I never used it btw ) and now Vortex, is to be able to arrange our load order accordingly and automatically. Same concept about cars : some are automatic and some are manuals. It is up to the person who will buy a car if that person prefers automatic or not. We should please both sides Tannin. If Vortex already include that feature, please forgive me and thanks again for your hard work. :)

Robbie922004 wrote:

This is system may be different from what users are used to but for the vast majority of users it will be quicker and more robust because
[snip]

The new system is a fine complementary system to the old way, but I don't think it's wise to fully replace manual mod reordering with it. It's great for long-term mods that you're going to have around in your load order after many shuffles, but it's not so good for when you just want to quickly stick a mod in a different spot in your load order. And that's a crucial part of my own testing process. It's true that I haven't tried it myself but I've been told by other users in exact detail (including screenshots) how it works, and it's far less convenient to me to have to set up a LOOT rule to move something somewhere than to just click and drag it, or use the arrows.

I'm not dogging on the new way at all, I just strongly feel that both options should be available. The LOOT rules method doesn't actually stop me from changing my load order manually, it just adds an extra step by forcing me to load the game I'm playing in order to do it since it's a native part of the launcher for Bethesda titles and XCOM among others. One isn't really a replacement for the other, because they have two different utilities. And as stated, regardless of whether or not it's supported by Vortex, I'm still going to tweak my load order manually from time to time. It would be better if I could do it all from the same place.

> However, those are few in compare to the vast majority of players than do not know anything about dependencies or which mod should go first and / or last.

But this is even more true when you have to order the entire list manually. It's not like having drag & drop reordering removes the need to know what you're doing.

> I do not know if what I suggested is possible.

If I understood you correctly that's exactly what we're trying to do: Both plugins and mods get ordered based on rules that can be provided by mod authors or community members with the necessary information. As a user you only have to decide the cases where no shared rules apply or if you want to overrule the preconfigured rules.

Now for mods, since this system is entirely new and we don't actually have server support for sharing mod rules this doesn't yet work for mods but it's planned.
For plugins we use loot and their masterlist as the basis so most of the time the automatic order should be fine.

[kamikatze13]

In response to post #57249476. #57250746, #57251226, #57252851 are all replies on the same post.

kamikatze13 wrote: Having missed the opportunity to get under the precious 1000, I had to quench my thirst by looking for screenshots of Vortex, and the first thing that struck me in particular:

We now have a bunch of tabs.
We have a `Mods` tab and a `Plugins` tab - but we do have to swtich between them, i.e. we do not have them side-by-side, correct?
And to access tools, we head over to the `Dashboard`?

What is the reasoning behind this? Cause my HCI prof would be steaming if he'd seen this UI design.

Oblitus wrote: Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient, so to have side-by-side you'll need a 4k monitor. And yes, Vortex UI is painful to use.

prinyo wrote: > "Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient"

I was thinking the same looking at a screenshot of the plugins tab - all those white spaces that mean you need to scroll way more and you see less plugins at a glance (less plugins visible at the same time). My mind breaks with data been presented in such an inefficient way. Hope there is a "compact view". As Google offered when they inserted similar white spaces in the mail listing and people started complaining.
Looking at the screenshots it seems that Vortex is targeted exclusively at casual users.

Tannin42 wrote: The UI was never going to please everyone, that's why we have a theme editor. You're welcome. ;)

Does this imply we can have tools+mods+plugins on one/same page?

BTW, kudos for the `Categories` implementation - a huge improvement imho.

[Xelriel]

In response to post #57201831. #57202811, #57202956 are all replies on the same post.

Xelriel wrote: Doesen't look like the MO Import function works at all, Not from Program Files or Users, Not sure how to work around this ( I tried importing all the mods myself but something did not seem right, like it did not know what should and should not be overwritten/prioritized so im just going to wait for a workaround or fix.

someguynamedjoe wrote: Can confirm. Tried importing from MO for Oldrim, using a portable MO2. Says "import successful," but it imported exactly zero files.

This is literally all it said in the log file:

"transfer unpacked mods files
Finished transferring unpacked mod files"

Thallassa wrote: Import from MO worked for me when I last tried it (a few versions ago).

That said Vortex doesn't import activation or overwrite information from MO. You'll need to set that up manually even when import does work correctly. It would be too complex for it to convert MO's information to the new Vortex system.

Please use the feedback button built into vortex and provide as much information as possible about what you expected to happen and what actually happened. That will help the devs fix it. A vague post here will *not* help the devs do anything.

No point to do that at this rate, I love Vortex even in it's current state but if it can not Import Overwrites and Activation, Then there is no reason for me and probably the same feeling for a lot of people to switch from MO to Vortex, Maybe in the future they can implement this, but possibly not any time soon if what you said is true Thallassa.

[lasse1001]

I have read some comments about Vortex now and I don't understand why it can't have a tick -box with 'I'm an experienced user' during the installation to allow for more/other options within the manager? I understand that it should be easy to use for 'newbies' and that's a very good idea, but limiting all user into the 'easy' version isn't very friendly. Let those that want to change the installation folder, manage their loadorder themselves and so on do that, and everybody will be happy. (?) There's to much of 'We know what's best for you' going on on the net in anyway. Peace out. Edited February 2, 2018 by lasse1001

[Tannin42]

In response to post #57249476. #57250746, #57251226, #57252851, #57253371 are all replies on the same post.

kamikatze13 wrote: Having missed the opportunity to get under the precious 1000, I had to quench my thirst by looking for screenshots of Vortex, and the first thing that struck me in particular:

We now have a bunch of tabs.
We have a `Mods` tab and a `Plugins` tab - but we do have to swtich between them, i.e. we do not have them side-by-side, correct?
And to access tools, we head over to the `Dashboard`?

What is the reasoning behind this? Cause my HCI prof would be steaming if he'd seen this UI design.

Oblitus wrote: Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient, so to have side-by-side you'll need a 4k monitor. And yes, Vortex UI is painful to use.

prinyo wrote: > "Vortex screen space usage is very inefficient"

I was thinking the same looking at a screenshot of the plugins tab - all those white spaces that mean you need to scroll way more and you see less plugins at a glance (less plugins visible at the same time). My mind breaks with data been presented in such an inefficient way. Hope there is a "compact view". As Google offered when they inserted similar white spaces in the mail listing and people started complaining.
Looking at the screenshots it seems that Vortex is targeted exclusively at casual users.

Tannin42 wrote: The UI was never going to please everyone, that's why we have a theme editor. You're welcome. ;)

kamikatze13 wrote: Does this imply we can have tools+mods+plugins on one/same page?

BTW, kudos for the `Categories` implementation - a huge improvement imho.

There is a somewhat hidden feature: when you ctrl+click on another tab it will open it in addition to the currently open one, sharing available space, so you can have two things open at once.
Other structural changes, like putting tools on the window frame (i.e. alongside the launch button on the top) would require an extension, meaning coding, _that_ can't be done with css I'm afraid.