Deleted3897072User Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) ... There never is a good reason typically to include a harder way to do the same exact thing that can be achieved the easy way. Just use the easy way, you don't have to do it the hard way. You are not going to get better results doing it the hard way. I think we can agree on that :D In my case, the hard way of doing plugin ordering was Vortex and the easy way was NMM. But with the last update to Vortex, it magically became the easy way and that happened between me starting this thread and now. Again, for me, the easy way to install mods with file-level overriding is still NMM and the hard way is (the current version of) Vortex. But, when Vortex does that too, it will perhaps become the easy way. Picking up on the OS analogy, there are some things that are easier to do in DOS or Linux than in Windows, although running Skyrim is not one of them. But when I want to do one of those things, I pull up a DOS box and start piping command lines. Because it's easier. Not easier for everybody, just for people who already know DOS. (I go back to even before MS-DOS, to CP/M and a DEC OS called RT-11, which was lovely, and IBM OS-360, which was horrible). What is easy or difficult is not absolute, it's a personal thing. Edited February 8, 2018 by OldMansBeard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarchinBunny Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 ... There never is a good reason typically to include a harder way to do the same exact thing that can be achieved the easy way. Just use the easy way, you don't have to do it the hard way. You are not going to get better results doing it the hard way. I think we can agree on that :D In my case, the hard way of doing plugin ordering was Vortex and the easy way was NMM. But with the last update to Vortex, it magically became the easy way and that happened between me starting this thread and now. Again, for me, the easy way to install mods with file-level overriding is still NMM and the hard way is (the current version of) Vortex. But, when Vortex does that too, it will perhaps become the easy way. Picking up on the OS analogy, there are some things that are easier to do in DOS or Linux than in Windows, although running Skyrim is not one of them. But when I want to do one of those things, I pull up a DOS box and start piping command lines. Because it's easier. Not easier for everybody, just for people who already know DOS. (I go back to even before MS-DOS, to CP/M and a DEC OS called RT-11, which was lovely, and IBM OS-360, which was horrible). What is easy or difficult is not absolute, it's a personal thing. Ya, you make a pretty good point. What is easy or hard can be subjective, I guess. But I also think a lot of things people consider harder isn't actually because it's harder, but because they are not used to it.It's sort of like Windows vs Mac users. People who use Windows will likely see it as easier than using a Mac and vice versa. But I think if people gave it time they typically will get used to it and get it, and they may even go as far as to learn to prefer it. The hard part is learning and getting used to something new, but once you know how, it almost seems simple. Loading up a new piece of software can look extremely daunting at times and if you are used to another software that does the same thing but different, chances are you are going to find the one you had been using easier and so you may feel the new software is unintuitive. That is just how it always feels to start with, but it's rarely ever true. Being an artist, I have had to learn to get used to all sorts of software. Maya, 3D Studio, Cinema 4D, Zbrush, Clip Studio, Photoshop, Gimp, Moho, Paint tool sai, etc. For me, learning new software is common practice. I say we give it a couple of months and see where everyone is. By then I am sure someone will have created an extension if not much sooner for those who feel they cannot get used to the new way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d81 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 ... There never is a good reason typically to include a harder way to do the same exact thing that can be achieved the easy way. Just use the easy way, you don't have to do it the hard way. You are not going to get better results doing it the hard way. I think we can agree on that :D In my case, the hard way of doing plugin ordering was Vortex and the easy way was NMM. But with the last update to Vortex, it magically became the easy way and that happened between me starting this thread and now. Again, for me, the easy way to install mods with file-level overriding is still NMM and the hard way is (the current version of) Vortex. But, when Vortex does that too, it will perhaps become the easy way. Picking up on the OS analogy, there are some things that are easier to do in DOS or Linux than in Windows, although running Skyrim is not one of them. But when I want to do one of those things, I pull up a DOS box and start piping command lines. Because it's easier. Not easier for everybody, just for people who already know DOS. (I go back to even before MS-DOS, to CP/M and a DEC OS called RT-11, which was lovely, and IBM OS-360, which was horrible). What is easy or difficult is not absolute, it's a personal thing. OldMansBeard said it exactly how I wish I could :pinch: He swooped in and got what he wanted LIKE A BOSS. Having stepped back and thought about it a while, the conclusion I've come to is this, for better or worse - the request to not use LOOT and have a more user friendly manual load order management solution is impossible to fulfill at this time. Literally impossible. It is "wrong" out of the gate, from a technical perspective, and those requesting such a solution are corner cases. My communications with developers about their software have always been pleasant, not like what happened here. I've never been talked down to like I am incapable of forming coherent thoughts, that's for sure. I've never been translated either, which showed a level of miscommunication that I did not think possible. I have been playing and tinkering with these games since Morrowind's original release, I was an adult then and am now. But the request is from a human perspective, not a technical perspective. I don't want to be "right", nor do I want to stop others from interacting with their games in the manner they see fit. I want to have what I thought was a reasonable need met by the software that I assume many others would also appreciate. That assumption is based on years of experience, with LOOT and other tools, and seems valid, IDK. Being "wrong" or "right" isn't on the table as far as I'm concerned. Proving "rightness" is something I never should have appeared to do, if I did, because it's never what I meant. I see no righteous battle where I must be the victor. Seems to me I should have never needed to say anything, but I'm so far behind the times I don't understand, I guess. Honestly, I should have recognized it was a toxic scenario and never engaged. It's not the end of the world and the situation will be inevitably be rectified later. But I have very strong feelings about LOOT, it's goals, and it's usefulness. I have never voiced them because I have never needed to, and never thought I would need to. The LOOT maintainers are trying to help people mod their games. Although I do not like the methods LOOT employs and avoid it, who am I to tell people otherwise? Even the Vortex crash dialog tells me not to "whine", which is incredibly rude, so I am not sure what to think about this project. I've seen this behavior from other teams or individuals that develop modding related software and from some popular mod authors, so I guess it's part of the culture. But it's one thing to get annoyed by comments and posts, it's another to embed that annoyance into the software. I never, ever, want to get sucked up into that method of thinking and interacting with people again, and if I did I profusely apologize. It is not the way to go under any circumstances. I hope in the future we can have a public place to report bugs and make feature request that is not a forum. (Sorry if this thread has been hijacked, I don't use forums often and don't like them...I don't think I've started more than 10 forum threads in my life.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cvansickle Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018  ... There never is a good reason typically to include a harder way to do the same exact thing that can be achieved the easy way. Just use the easy way, you don't have to do it the hard way. You are not going to get better results doing it the hard way. I think we can agree on that :D In my case, the hard way of doing plugin ordering was Vortex and the easy way was NMM. But with the last update to Vortex, it magically became the easy way and that happened between me starting this thread and now. Again, for me, the easy way to install mods with file-level overriding is still NMM and the hard way is (the current version of) Vortex. But, when Vortex does that too, it will perhaps become the easy way. Picking up on the OS analogy, there are some things that are easier to do in DOS or Linux than in Windows, although running Skyrim is not one of them. But when I want to do one of those things, I pull up a DOS box and start piping command lines. Because it's easier. Not easier for everybody, just for people who already know DOS. (I go back to even before MS-DOS, to CP/M and a DEC OS called RT-11, which was lovely, and IBM OS-360, which was horrible). What is easy or difficult is not absolute, it's a personal thing.  OldMansBeard said it exactly how I wish I could :pinch: He swooped in and got what he wanted LIKE A BOSS. Having stepped back and thought about it a while, the conclusion I've come to is this, for better or worse - the request to not use LOOT and have a more user friendly manual load order management solution is impossible to fulfill at this time. Literally impossible. It is "wrong" out of the gate, from a technical perspective, and those requesting such a solution are corner cases. My communications with developers about their software have always been pleasant, not like what happened here. I've never been talked down to like I am incapable of forming coherent thoughts, that's for sure. I've never been translated either, which showed a level of miscommunication that I did not think possible. I have been playing and tinkering with these games since Morrowind's original release, I was an adult then and am now. But the request is from a human perspective, not a technical perspective. I don't want to be "right", nor do I want to stop others from interacting with their games in the manner they see fit. I want to have what I thought was a reasonable need met by the software that I assume many others would also appreciate. That assumption is based on years of experience, with LOOT and other tools, and seems valid, IDK. Being "wrong" or "right" isn't on the table as far as I'm concerned. Proving "rightness" is something I never should have appeared to do, if I did, because it's never what I meant. I see no righteous battle where I must be the victor. Seems to me I should have never needed to say anything, but I'm so far behind the times I don't understand, I guess. Honestly, I should have recognized it was a toxic scenario and never engaged. It's not the end of the world and the situation will be inevitably be rectified later. But I have very strong feelings about LOOT, it's goals, and it's usefulness. I have never voiced them because I have never needed to, and never thought I would need to. The LOOT maintainers are trying to help people mod their games. Although I do not like the methods LOOT employs and avoid it, who am I to tell people otherwise? Even the Vortex crash dialog tells me not to "whine", which is incredibly rude, so I am not sure what to think about this project. I've seen this behavior from other teams or individuals that develop modding related software and from some popular mod authors, so I guess it's part of the culture. But it's one thing to get annoyed by comments and posts, it's another to embed that annoyance into the software. I never, ever, want to get sucked up into that method of thinking and interacting with people again, and if I did I profusely apologize. It is not the way to go under any circumstances. I hope in the future we can have a public place to report bugs and make feature request that is not a forum. (Sorry if this thread has been hijacked, I don't use forums often and don't like them...I don't think I've started more than 10 forum threads in my life.)This. Absolutely. Nail on the head. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and everyone has their preferred method. No one way is wrong and people voicing their preference of one way over another shouldn't be talked down to. Frankly, the rank unprofessionalism coming from the dev team here is enough to turn one, such as myself, off to ever wanting to touch this software. It's sad. Not saying they've been treated with the respect they deserve or anything, but come on... I think the burden of cordialness and civility falls primarily on the PROFESSIONALS who are being paid to do the work. This is a freely provided application, so the devs will ultimately determine what they publish as the final product, so it is absolutely their right to refuse features that some consider essential. Like was mentioned above, this is not the end of the world. We still have other tools that can get the job done the way we would like it to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannin42 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 My communications with developers about their software have always been pleasant, not like what happened here. I've never been talked down to like I am incapable of forming coherent thoughts, that's for sure. I've never been translated either, which showed a level of miscommunication that I did not think possible. I have been playing and tinkering with these games since Morrowind's original release, I was an adult then and am now. I've translated you because you're obviously not aware of how your posts come across, so I'm going to do it again: What you're saying is: - I'm pleasant, Tannin is rude - I talk on eye level and make sense, Tannin talks down to me, what an ass - Tannin is miscommunicating - I'm an adult and act like one, everyone who argues with me is a child Your posts ooze arrogance yet you expect to be treated like a prince. Your posts are always the same structure, telling us how smart, adult and experienced you are, then what you want, then how it should be obvious that you're right, then how it's completely incomprehensible that anyone could think differently. Your first post here contained: I don't want ..., I don't want ... I want to ... I want to. I don't want ... I don't care ... I want ... Then I want to, if I feel like it, ... as I see fit. I do not want ... I do not want ... I do not want One freakishly long list of demands and then Personally I do not understand why this is even a question that needs to be answered,... So essentially: Why does this moron not understand what is obvious... Your second post (before I even answered) was: I had no idea this anti-load-order movement was going on...I would have formed a resistance or something. Maybe there's still time. I mean, I don't understand, is this real...what's happening? I am very, very, very against this. Maybe that's wrong or I'm stupid or whatever, but I don't feel comfortable with the author of Nexus Mod Manager saying the things Tannin42 is saying...the statements about C drive installation and Linux are laughable. So from the very beginning you called my decisions laughable and incomprehensible and a technical improvement is treated like it was some movement, as if we were the Freemasons, trying to take your freedom. You were personal from the very start, before I even answered to you. So no, you never tried to have a friendly and constructive discussion. You never even considered hearing a different side. If you acted like this when talking to other developers than the pleasentness of that communication certainly was no achievement of yours. Or did you actually expect you can hijack a thread, insult the developer with your first posts, during a time where he is obviously very busy any stressed and then get a friendly, chirpy reaction? If I was a PR person, trained in the fine art of BS then I might have been able to hide how insulted I was, so mea maxima culpa for being a human being. Honestly, I should have recognized it was a toxic scenario and never engaged. You mean when you made the scenario more toxic? How could you have possibly recognized? Even the Vortex crash dialog tells me not to "whine", which is incredibly rude... ...when you actively try to feel insulted. Otherwise it would be obvious to you that it's intended as a joke. Feel free to not find it funny but acting like I was actually insulting anyone - that is actually laughable. So yeah. If anyone is actually interested to lead a discussion on the topic, to actually hear the reasoning behind the decision and maybe influence the development then do what OldMansBeard did and stay rational and be responsive, that will get you further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tannin42 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 No one way is wrong and people voicing their preference of one way over another shouldn't be talked down to. And where did I talk down to anyone for wanting manual plugin ordering? I tried to explain why we wouldn't invest the time, I did explain that an extension to do it would be welcome. Frankly, the rank unprofessionalism coming from the dev team here is enough to turn one, such as myself, off to ever wanting to touch this software. It's sad. Not saying they've been treated with the respect they deserve or anything, but come on... I think the burden of cordialness and civility falls primarily on the PROFESSIONALS who are being paid to do the work. I'm a software developer, maybe even professional but I'm certainly no professional community liaison. Never claimed I was and it's not what I'm being paid for. I'm not even a native english speaker. But I question if you were actually better off talking to someone who is. Would you prefer to get asked "Have you tried turning it off and on again" before anything else, if it's just worded nicely enough? Is it worth having all communication go through layers of community representatives and team leads and project leads before anything gets even considered, just so you don't risk getting into contact with a tired software developer? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d81 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) Tannin, I apologize for my behavior, for the third time. It was colored by your behavior, but that is not an excuse, which is what I was trying to say. I read through your posts and known issues section before I said anything. I found them rude, dismissive, and condescending, sorry. EDIT: I mean that, I should have been more understanding of the situation, which I usually am. Again, I am saying "I", "me", "my", etc. because I view everything I have expressed up to this point as my opinion. I should form my sentences better, I am sorry (again). Now I know how people feel that argue politics on Facebook and Twitter. Edited February 8, 2018 by d81 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deleted3897072User Posted February 8, 2018 Author Share Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) For the record, I want to say that I'm very happy wth the current state of Vortex vis a vis load ordering. Today, I had this situation with a load order of about 30 plugins:A.esp needs to go at load order 0x12 so I pinned it and it stayed there when everything else moved around. √B.esp needs to go high in the load order, so I gave it priority -10 and it automatically went to the top, just after the esm's. √C.esp is a patch mastered to D.esp and E.esp and Vortex automatically put it near the bottom, below D and E, without me even needing to make any rules. √F.esp is a patch mastered to G.esp and H.esm, and Vortex automatically put it just below G, again without needing me to tell it. √Uninstalling Mod J in NMM (I'm still using NMM to install/uninstall) caused Vortex to remove J.esp and move everything below it up one place. √So, basically, I haven't managed to break it. I've assigned one priority, pinned one plugin and everything else has been done for me. I'm sold. I think Tannin deserves a round of applause. :yes: Edited February 8, 2018 by OldMansBeard Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KarebuS Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Tannin, if you're still reading this forum (or if anyone else knows), I was wondering if Vortex's sort button just uses LOOT's masterlist or not.Basically I'm asking if there's any point in using LOOT if I'm using Vortex's sort function. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rmm200 Posted February 8, 2018 Share Posted February 8, 2018 Tannin, if you're still reading this forum (or if anyone else knows), I was wondering if Vortex's sort button just uses LOOT's masterlist or not.Basically I'm asking if there's any point in using LOOT if I'm using Vortex's sort function. Please don't let real questions like this get lost in a political diatribe...Start a new topic for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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