Managing the Load Order...

[piperman123]

Sorry, that turned into a bit of a rant I think :sweat:

TLDR:

• None necessary functionality should not be a priority for alpha software. And changing the install load order more than vortex already does is exactly that, unnecessary.
• I'm surprised some of the community is so adamant about not changing how they do things, I thought that was exactly what modders were about??
• Don't be ungrateful (I don't think anyone was from what I read, but it still kinda came across that way at times.) you can tell tons of hard work has gone into Vortex and the team deserve some love in return.
• It's still in ALPHA! And as such has blown my expectations for the new NMM. I'm sure there's a number of things Tannin and the rest will add after they've sorted the main and most important things out first. i.e. functionality and GUI functions that are actually needed. Extra things people want just because they prefer things a certain way can always come after.

I'll just point out I didn't read everything. I honestly can't be bothered wasting time reading more of those comments when I've still got work to do setting up my own game. Most the comment's I did read just came of as entitled. I'll say it again, for alpha software to offer so much functionality that is completely new to NMM (which obviously means it's new to NMM users too) and work so well is amazing. Yeah, I read few reasonable arguments for why manually adjusting the install order should be added, and I agree, it should, but it's just not essential. Or at the very least it's not a priority right now. There are far more things that are actually needed to get things working easily and Vortex has most of those already, the way it manages the install order works well enough (and what it doesn't do you can sort yourself with some tweaking) more than enough for NMM users and most MO users. I just disliked how everyone was bashing it for not having the icing when the cake is still being made, so to speak. And the ingratitude a lot of you guys were showing for what is obviously good software with vast improvements over the old NMM and even MO just to a lesser degree.

 

 

 

I don't get why everyone is so adamant that they need to change the load order, honestly. I get it's nice to be able to do and kind of expected but as has been said already, it's not necessary. Let the Vortex team focus on more important things. When install order is actually relevant Vortex tells you and prompts you to adjust, as has been said. If it doesn't then nothing is getting overwritten and thus, changing anything wouldn't make a difference. So just because you used to adjusting it, let it go, it doesn't matter.

 

Has the community always been this reluctant to change? This way is simpler, which makes it easier for new comers without compromising any useful functionality. Yeah, it'll be nice if they add it in, I get wanting to change the install order manually to group things together or just for reassurance (rational/functional or not) but it should in no way be a priority, period. If it's not adding functionality why would they focus on it while it's in alpha and still has actual functions that could be added or improved on. GUI functionality included.

 

As ridiculous as it would be if everyone complaining had not gone through the settings and enabled advanced mode to see the conflict notifications or been unable to understand it after coming from MO I'd have to admit I would be in tears from all the laughing. Sorry, but you can't be using MO and then not be able to figure out Vortex, and that is exactly the point, is it not?

 

I may be missing the mark but people complaining about something that doesn't serve an actual purpose other than to appease just seems ungrateful to me. Tannin and everyone else have obviously worked insanely hard on this and I for one have been blown away by it. I've happily moved from MO because it's so much more streamlined, the GUI is tons better and all the functionality I need is present. MO does still have slightly more functionality... but Vortex does everything in a, for lack of a better word, cleaner more efficient way as far as I can tell anyway. Anything that's not, I trust will be added (I made a post elsewhere mentioning what I feel could be added) and considering this is alpha I haven't encountered any notable issues. Some hiccups now and then but nothing worrying by any means.

 

 

[Krytern]

.....None necessary functionality should not be a priority for alpha software. And changing the install load order more than vortex already does is exactly that, unnecessary......

It isn't unnecessary when I am having trouble fixing a issue because I can't do something as simple as dragging a mod down to load last at all times. Also criticising something doesn't make someone ungrateful. If a lot of people want something or are disappointing about something then they should voice it, not just sit there kissing butts, that is how nothing gets done. After all Black Tree Gaming aren't a charity, they are a company that make money and should be treated as such.

[piperman123]

Fair point. That's only true if changing the priority of the mod doesn't work and vortex isn't already showing that it has a conflict/s though. If either of those work then Vortex provides the functionality needed to allow you to set things up and this is a complaint about convenience (despite the functionality it provides already being much better and more convenient than it's predecessor, NMM). If not, and it's not user error, then yeah, it's need. I just don't think that's the case.

 

As for your last point, I agree. Although the mod manager itself is free and anyone paying for premium is getting nothing extra from Vortex, so surely Vortex itself can be viewed in much the same light as any other mod on here, not quite but you get what I'm saying.

 

And yeah, criticism is good, and I'm not trying to dissuade anyone from providing any. I was more addressing the comments that were essentially saying 'Vortex is useless because I have to do something differently and can't just do it this way'. Like I said, I agree with it being something that should be added and, no, it's not unnecessary as it does serve a purpose. It's just not important 'right now' when the functionality is already there just using a different approach. It should indeed be added, once everything else is sorted out and functionality that is actually missing has been implemented. I just don't see how manually punching in some numbers is so terrible that people are justifying tossing a decent MM to floor because it's not drag and drop.

Edited March 11, 2018 by piperman123

[HomicidalGrouse]

• None necessary functionality should not be a priority for alpha software. And changing the install load order more than vortex already does is exactly that, unnecessary.
• I'm surprised some of the community is so adamant about not changing how they do things, I thought that was exactly what modders were about??

 

What you consider necessary and what others consider necessary are not necessarily the same thing.

 

For instance, I consider changing the way we manage our load order to be unnecessary. I find it interesting how you presume to declare whether or not a certain feature is necessary, and then sarcastically remark about people complaining about a change they clearly don't consider necessary.

 

There are a lot of changes that this software needs in order for me to use it. The ability to sort my load order by dragging individual mods where they should be, as we've been able to do for years in NMM and MO, is one of those changes. I'd consider it necessary.

[sopmac45]

 

• None necessary functionality should not be a priority for alpha software. And changing the install load order more than vortex already does is exactly that, unnecessary.
• I'm surprised some of the community is so adamant about not changing how they do things, I thought that was exactly what modders were about??

 

What you consider necessary and what others consider necessary are not necessarily the same thing.

 

For instance, I consider changing the way we manage our load order to be unnecessary. I find it interesting how you presume to declare whether or not a certain feature is necessary, and then sarcastically remark about people complaining about a change they clearly don't consider necessary.

 

There are a lot of changes that this software needs in order for me to use it. The ability to sort my load order by dragging individual mods where they should be, as we've been able to do for years in NMM and MO, is one of those changes. I'd consider it necessary.

 

 

 

If users want to point their view, they have the right to do it but I disagree when they just criticize and do not provide any valid feedback. I agree, there are a lot of changes that I am very sure a lot of users have provided to the developer's team, either via forum or Vortex feedback; whether or not they will be implemented is something that we do not know but at the same time, I do not expect Tannin to change every single thing we are asking to be changed.

 

Personally, I would like to be able to printout my load order as I was able back in NMM. I am missing this important feature. Yes, I can print from my data folder but printing directly from Vortex should be allowed.

 

Also, moving / dragging / dropping mods in the Mods Screen did not work yesterday. This mod from Skyrim, Rustic Clothing, cannot be moved anywhere and the only option that I have is via pop-up screen in which the other mod conflicting with is Static Mesh ... I do not know if this a bug or not, but I wanted to move it someplace else within my load order but it did not let me.

 

Assuming it is not a bug ( I hope not ), bottom line is that we are lacking documentation on how to deal with Vortex, especially, the most sensitive part of it which is load order, dependencies ( how to deal with them ) and dragging/dropping ... I hope that we get a PDF file with all the instructions because I have been waiting ( maybe I am wrong but I checked Gopher's channel everyday ) for Gopher latest Videos and they are not out yet.

 

When you have several mods conflicting and you have to choose how to deal with dependencies, is kind of complicated for me. Perhaps I am not that intelligent like the majority but if this is the right way to do things, why we have not been giving specific instructions ? I need them. For example, and I would like somebody to correct me on this : let' say that Rustic Clothing has a conflict ( red bolt ); I click on it and a pop up screen comes up with 6 more mods conflicting with .... at that point, I do believe that all the mods listed in that window must be given a dependency in relation to Rustic Clothing, am I right ?

 

Sorry for my question, but .... what am I saying to Vortex in that moment ? Place my Rustic Clothing mod : load before, load after that this, no rule or whatever ? or .... on the contrary, I am saying to Vortex : place this mod ( the first from top to bottom ), load it before my Rustic Clothing, to the second ( example ) : load this mod after my Rustic Clothing, etc, etc, ?

 

And honestly, I have done it by trying and trying till I fix it ... but without really knowing exactly what I am doing and I do not like that. When Vortex does not tell me anymore there are conflicts, then I know I am good to go. I am sorry but I need to understand it so I exactly know how to deal with it.

 

I am a photographer for more than 25 years. I can teach photography to anyone. How about if I just say : aim your camera and gently click it !! Do you think that is a good teaching ? Nope. :ohmy: Photography is more than that, much more so if I want to really teach somebody, I would have to come up with solid and details instructions for that person to understand why, WHY, this need to be done to get a good picture, at least, from the technical point of view because if art is not there, nothing especial will happen with your pictures, but at least, you will know .. how .. and why must be done this way so you can come up with a technically good picture.

 

That is exactly how I feel in Vortex. Here it is. Deal with it but no instructions. I am waiting for them. To each his own. I am not a genius about logic, dependencies, modding, etc, etc, etc. .... :sad:

[euph]

Moving mods around is absolutely needed for me. I merge a lot of mods and I need to move the merged esp around to avoid CTD. If I try to load a game with Vortex's load order, I only get CTD's in the face. This is the primary reason of why I don't use Vortex.

 

May NMM have its faults but I prefer to have control over my load order than some algorithm that thinks it knows better than me what I'm doing with my game. Make it an advanced user option if you will, but put it there.

 

I'll start using Vortex as my main mod manager when I get back control over what mods are doing. If the option doesn't appear, then I'll stick to NMM, MO2 or Wyre.

[SkunkMonkey]

Moving mods around is absolutely needed for me. I merge a lot of mods and I need to move the merged esp around to avoid CTD. If I try to load a game with Vortex's load order, I only get CTD's in the face. This is the primary reason of why I don't use Vortex.

 

May NMM have its faults but I prefer to have control over my load order than some algorithm that thinks it knows better than me what I'm doing with my game.

 

I'll start using Vortex as my main mod manager when I get back control over what mods are doing.

 

Funny, I do the same thing, have several merged patches and I have no problems positioning them in my load order exactly where I want using priorities.

 

People have become so accustomed to doing something a specific way to the point that they are unwilling to learn a potentially better and more powerful to do it. Give Vortex a chance, take the time to learn a new way to organize your plugins and you may just find that you like it better. Also understand that a lot of functionality may be outright missing but that does not mean it won't be implemented later.

[euph]

 

Moving mods around is absolutely needed for me. I merge a lot of mods and I need to move the merged esp around to avoid CTD. If I try to load a game with Vortex's load order, I only get CTD's in the face. This is the primary reason of why I don't use Vortex.

 

May NMM have its faults but I prefer to have control over my load order than some algorithm that thinks it knows better than me what I'm doing with my game.

 

I'll start using Vortex as my main mod manager when I get back control over what mods are doing.

 

Funny, I do the same thing, have several merged patches and I have no problems positioning them in my load order exactly where I want using priorities.

 

People have become so accustomed to doing something a specific way to the point that they are unwilling to learn a potentially better and more powerful to do it. Give Vortex a chance, take the time to learn a new way to organize your plugins and you may just find that you like it better. Also understand that a lot of functionality may be outright missing but that does not mean it won't be implemented later.

 

 

Why have it simple if you can have it complicated...

 

I have better things to do in my life than spend hours managing dependencies one by one and giving all the mods, priorities on LOOT. And then pray I don't CTD and have to do all this crap again.

 

This not to mention that the "great" Vortex didn't manage to find NMM (0.64.2) because I have NMM installed in a custom folder and I had to spend hours installing all the mods. Why? Because there's no option to look for where NMM is installed. Pure genius right there.

 

Vortex? Maybe in a year I'll look at it again.

[SkunkMonkey]

 

 

Moving mods around is absolutely needed for me. I merge a lot of mods and I need to move the merged esp around to avoid CTD. If I try to load a game with Vortex's load order, I only get CTD's in the face. This is the primary reason of why I don't use Vortex.

 

May NMM have its faults but I prefer to have control over my load order than some algorithm that thinks it knows better than me what I'm doing with my game.

 

I'll start using Vortex as my main mod manager when I get back control over what mods are doing.

 

Funny, I do the same thing, have several merged patches and I have no problems positioning them in my load order exactly where I want using priorities.

 

People have become so accustomed to doing something a specific way to the point that they are unwilling to learn a potentially better and more powerful to do it. Give Vortex a chance, take the time to learn a new way to organize your plugins and you may just find that you like it better. Also understand that a lot of functionality may be outright missing but that does not mean it won't be implemented later.

 

 

Why have it simple if you can have it complicated...

 

I have better things to do in my life than spend hours managing dependencies one by one and giving all the mods, priorities on LOOT. And then pray I don't CTD and have to do all this crap again.

 

This not to mention that the "great" Vortex didn't manage to find NMM (0.64.2) because I have NMM installed in a custom folder and I had to spend hours installing all the mods. Why? Because there's no option to look for where NMM is installed. Pure genius right there.

 

Vortex? Maybe in a year I'll look at it again.

 

 

I'm thinking maybe you are better off avoiding alpha state software and should stick to fully released products.

[sopmac45]

 

 

 

Moving mods around is absolutely needed for me. I merge a lot of mods and I need to move the merged esp around to avoid CTD. If I try to load a game with Vortex's load order, I only get CTD's in the face. This is the primary reason of why I don't use Vortex.

 

May NMM have its faults but I prefer to have control over my load order than some algorithm that thinks it knows better than me what I'm doing with my game.

 

I'll start using Vortex as my main mod manager when I get back control over what mods are doing.

 

Funny, I do the same thing, have several merged patches and I have no problems positioning them in my load order exactly where I want using priorities.

 

People have become so accustomed to doing something a specific way to the point that they are unwilling to learn a potentially better and more powerful to do it. Give Vortex a chance, take the time to learn a new way to organize your plugins and you may just find that you like it better. Also understand that a lot of functionality may be outright missing but that does not mean it won't be implemented later.

 

 

Why have it simple if you can have it complicated...

 

I have better things to do in my life than spend hours managing dependencies one by one and giving all the mods, priorities on LOOT. And then pray I don't CTD and have to do all this crap again.

 

This not to mention that the "great" Vortex didn't manage to find NMM (0.64.2) because I have NMM installed in a custom folder and I had to spend hours installing all the mods. Why? Because there's no option to look for where NMM is installed. Pure genius right there.

 

Vortex? Maybe in a year I'll look at it again.

 

 

I'm thinking maybe you are better off avoiding alpha state software and should stick to fully released products.

 

 

 

 

In my case I do not have any problem dealing with Alpha state at all. Some people learn faster than others for certain things. For me, photography was and it is easy, learned it very fast while other may not be that fast learners; perhaps they are faster learners than me in mathematics for example. The point is, lack of documentation ! A simple note added to Vortex explaining things ( as we have when we click on those " i " ) could be the difference.

 

I already learned how to deal with dependencies because somebody explained to me with just a couple of sentences and a printout. Very simple and straight to the point. Did not have to read a PDF file but instead asking questions to others and trying to grab some information here and there, we should have inside Vortex, a simple explanation and that will make the difference even in Alpha state so people can test it an provide their feedback, better than not.