Fangirling in Sovngarde and Thoughts on the Elder Scroll Afterlife for

[ToniPrufrock]

So today I defeated Alduin, and naturally part of that is the rather awesome event of going to Sovngarde. While the place was rather disappointingly small (understandable, really) I absolutely fell in love with the sky, and as soon as I entered the hall and was greeted by Ysgramor and Jergen Windcaller I fangirled like a dork.

Admittedly ysgramor was no big thing for this particular character. I was attached to him from an old character who was a companion but it was still pretty awesome to see him in the flesh, and devoid of that rather silly armour that his statue has on the loading screens.

 

Did anyone else get a kick out of seeing the legends in the flesh?

 

Also, it got me to thinking about the afterlife for our characters and the vast landscape of these other realms. Do we know much else about them? (For example I adored the 'On Oblivion' book in game and the rich description of the realms of the Daedra.)

 

Since my character has been chasing up every Daedra quest, her afterlife is uncertain. But I expect that as a nightingale and leader of the thieves guild (and because she prays to her whenever she gets 'home' in the guild) she will end up in Noctournal's realm. For a while at least.

 

Where do you think your character will end up when they die?

[sajuukkhar9000]

The afterlife for most beings is the dreamsleeve.

 

The dreamsleeve is a place where souls get recycled, their memories wiped, and then sent back to Mundus.

 

Servants of the Daedra CAN go to that Daedra lord's realm, should the Daedric lord take them, and Lorkhan/Sithis/Shor takes souls to Sovengard and the void, but everyone else gets dreamsleved.

 

Also the player caracter becomes Talos at the end of the civil war, should your character die he will just ascend into Talos's place.

Edited April 25, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[RedRavyn]

@ sajuukkhar9000: You just made all that up, right? The Dreamsleeve is not part of Skyrim lore. Remember that Bethesda re-writes lore with every new installment of the ES, and there is no mention made of the Dreamsleeve anywhere in-game or in the Official Game Guide. As for the player becoming Talos at the end of the civil war, pictures or it didn't happen. I've never done the civil war questline, and never will, but I've read just about everything there is to read that is in any way official or reflects actual in-game play and no mention is made of the player's character ascending to godhood.

 

@ ToniPrufrock: I was really underwhelmed with Sovngarde. My thoughts were "Is this it? Really?" There's more action happening in Jorvaskr, and that's not saying much. On the other hand, I role-play my characters according to their backgrounds, and the only character I've pushed through the Main Quest is an old Oblivion import -- my favorite Khajiit, Tsarra. She's not the sort who is impressed by legends and myths, and she's not Nord, so she doesn't have a predisposition to hero-worship of old Nord warriors. Maybe I'll get around to playing a Nord at some point and my attitude will be different when I get there.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Bethesda doesn't re-write the lore for each game....... what are you talking about?

 

The lore has been the same throughout the series.................with each game connecting to each other. Seriously what you just said was one of the most nonsensical things I have ever heard.

 

That entire statement reeks of someone who is new to the ES series, or actually doesn't know the lore.

 

 

 

Also The Dovahkiin ascended the same way Tiber Septim did.

 

During the creation of The Third Empire Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus took the same places that Akatosh, Lorkhan, and Magnus did during the creation of the mortal realm.

 

The General/Akatosh/Tiber

The Rebel/Lorkhan/Ysmir

The observer/Mgnus/Zurin

 

The general has the rebel killed while the observer looks on. It was the direct mimicry of the creation of the mortal realm that caused Tiber, Ysmir and Zurin to merge and ascend as Talos.

 

At the end of the Skyrim civil war we have two generals, Tullius and Ulfric, two rebels, Ulfric against the empire, and The Empire/Tullius against the old nord ways, and the observer The Dovahkiin

 

At the end of the civil war a general Tullius/Ulfric kills a Rebel, the other, while The Dovahkiin looks on.

 

Tullius, Ulfric and the dovahkiin recreated the same divine event that created Talos and that created the mortal realm.

Edited April 26, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[RedRavyn]

I think you're stretching it a bit, there. Show me, within the game, where there is anything at all that equates the Dovahkiin to godhood. To my knowledge, it isn't there. If it didn't happen in the game, it didn't happen because no lore has been written after Skyrim, the game.

 

As far as Bethesda rewriting the lore from game to game, there are a lot of people who agree with me and who disagree with you. Yes, the alterations have been minor, but they are there if you would but look at what's actually in each game from episode to episode.

 

So, lest this degenerate into flames, which I refuse to do on my part, although you came quite close to it, let us respectfully agree to disagree and let our disparate comments stand on their own or fall on their own because this disagreement has nothing to do with the subject of this thread.

[BrettM]

I've played an Argonian, a Bosmer, and now I'm working on a Khajiit. Would Sovngarde be an appropriate afterlife for any of them? Would it be welcome to any of them?

 

When my first character got through Sovngarde, I couldn't help wondering if being brought back there for his afterlife would make him any happier than Kodlak would be to be taken by Hircine. Yes, it's a lovely place full of fascinating people, but Argonians have their own beliefs regarding the Hist and their fate after death. I had been imagining that a vision or communication from the Hist was his reason for being in Skyrim in the first place, and I think he would not enjoy being sundered from his people and the Hist for eternity, Dovahkiin or not.

 

For the Bosmer, I'm less certain. His motives for being in Skyrim have more to do with politics than religion, given the current Thalmor control of Valenwood. I don't know much about Bosmer religion, but they seem like independent sorts, and a mighty hunter might be quite happy to spend eternity with a bunch of Nord heroes.

 

I still don't have a good handle on the Khajiit, though I suspect the Thalmor presence in Elsweyr is probably involved. Those cats are just strange. Hanging around Shor/Lorkhan for eternity might suit a Khajiit fine or it might be anathema. I haven't made up my mind yet.

 

I just wish I could take all three of these characters to their homes and learn more about their cultures.

[ToniPrufrock]

@ sajuukkhar9000: You just made all that up, right? The Dreamsleeve is not part of Skyrim lore. Remember that Bethesda re-writes lore with every new installment of the ES, and there is no mention made of the Dreamsleeve anywhere in-game or in the Official Game Guide. As for the player becoming Talos at the end of the civil war, pictures or it didn't happen. I've never done the civil war questline, and never will, but I've read just about everything there is to read that is in any way official or reflects actual in-game play and no mention is made of the player's character ascending to godhood.

 

@ ToniPrufrock: I was really underwhelmed with Sovngarde. My thoughts were "Is this it? Really?" There's more action happening in Jorvaskr, and that's not saying much. On the other hand, I role-play my characters according to their backgrounds, and the only character I've pushed through the Main Quest is an old Oblivion import -- my favorite Khajiit, Tsarra. She's not the sort who is impressed by legends and myths, and she's not Nord, so she doesn't have a predisposition to hero-worship of old Nord warriors. Maybe I'll get around to playing a Nord at some point and my attitude will be different when I get there.

 

 

I must admit with this character I defeated the Stormcloaks and there was no mention of becoming Talos or anything (but then as an imperial perhaps there wouldn't be.)

 

And admittedly in content Sovangarde was underwhelming in that it's not the fast fields of hunting and fighting or whatever impressive nordic stuff it was. But it was rather pretty. And, like I said, the heroes were pretty cool. But Jovaskaar is more vibrant, you're right.

I think it's great that you get so into the character of your characters as you play :) I've been doing that more and more with this character after her wife died and I got rather emotionally attached to what she must be going through. That and her going gradually more morally dubious what with her increasing fascination with the Daedra. Plus, since she joined the Imperials because of the Stormcloak's racism, on the one hand she'd be wary of the things attached to Nordic nationalism, but on the other hand she feels like she is a full resident of Skyrim so Sovangarde in particular would hold some weight and impression with her. Hrm.

[SubjectProphet]

The afterlife for most beings is the dreamsleeve.

 

The dreamsleeve is a place where souls get recycled, their memories wiped, and then sent back to Mundus.

 

Servants of the Daedra CAN go to that Daedra lord's realm, should the Daedric lord take them, and Lorkhan/Sithis/Shor takes souls to Sovengard and the void, but everyone else gets dreamsleved.

 

Also the player caracter becomes Talos at the end of the civil war, should your character die he will just ascend into Talos's place.

 

Oh my god.....

 

 

You do NOT become Talos at the end of the game. There is no Dreamsleeve anymore, remember how Bethesda rewrites lore?

[SubjectProphet]

Bethesda doesn't re-write the lore for each game....... what are you talking about?

 

The lore has been the same throughout the series.................with each game connecting to each other. Seriously what you just said was one of the most nonsensical things I have ever heard.

 

That entire statement reeks of someone who is new to the ES series, or actually doesn't know the lore.

 

 

 

Also The Dovahkiin ascended the same way Tiber Septim did.

 

During the creation of The Third Empire Tiber Septim, Ysmir Wulfharth, and Zurin Arctus took the same places that Akatosh, Lorkhan, and Magnus did during the creation of the mortal realm.

 

The General/Akatosh/Tiber

The Rebel/Lorkhan/Ysmir

The observer/Mgnus/Zurin

 

The general has the rebel killed while the observer looks on. It was the direct mimicry of the creation of the mortal realm that caused Tiber, Ysmir and Zurin to merge and ascend as Talos.

 

At the end of the Skyrim civil war we have two generals, Tullius and Ulfric, two rebels, Ulfric against the empire, and The Empire/Tullius against the old nord ways, and the observer The Dovahkiin

 

At the end of the civil war a general Tullius/Ulfric kills a Rebel, the other, while The Dovahkiin looks on.

 

Tullius, Ulfric and the dovahkiin recreated the same divine event that created Talos and that created the mortal realm.

 

 

Bethesda released sometime after Morrowind that they change the lore after each game to match it in up to date. I've played since Arena, gotton every news update and read everything. I've played every ES game there is.

 

 

The Dragonborn hasn't asended yet, we don't even know if he'll be in TES 6. You can't say he's Talos because he MIGHT become him. Talos was Tiber Septim, who founded the Empire and was lifted into the heavens to become the ninth divine. Akatosh was the first god, and just because Martin Septim became him, does that mean Martin became Akatosh? No.

 

The Dragonborn never observed in my playthrough, I was a rebel and I killed Tullius. I was apart of the rebellian. How could you say I just watched when my character actually gave the final blow?

 

You might've played through differently, but in my playthrough, the Dragonborn would enter Sovngarde when he died, not become Talos or any other divine.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Oh my god.....

 

 

You do NOT become Talos at the end of the game. There is no Dreamsleeve anymore, remember how Bethesda rewrites lore?

http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries

Greetings, novitiate, and know first a reassurance: Mankar Camoran was once like you, asleep, unwise, protonymic. We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind. In this moment we destroy her forever and enter the demesne of Lord Dagon.

 

Bethesda released sometime after Morrowind that they change the lore after each game to match it in up to date. I've played since Arena, gotton every news update and read everything. I've played every ES game there is.

 

 

The Dragonborn hasn't asended yet, we don't even know if he'll be in TES 6. You can't say he's Talos because he MIGHT become him. Talos was Tiber Septim, who founded the Empire and was lifted into the heavens to become the ninth divine. Akatosh was the first god, and just because Martin Septim became him, does that mean Martin became Akatosh? No.

 

The Dragonborn never observed in my playthrough, I was a rebel and I killed Tullius. I was apart of the rebellian. How could you say I just watched when my character actually gave the final blow?

 

You might've played through differently, but in my playthrough, the Dragonborn would enter Sovngarde when he died, not become Talos or any other divine.

Ugh................. you totally took that out of context. Bethesda changes SOME of the lore for each game and then adds retconn explanations for why it was changed. Bethesda does not throw out all the lore after every game and start over.

 

I seriously dont understand how you could warp what Bethesda said that badly. Also I have played since Arena also, and read everything.

 

You are probably confusing their statement that from Arena -> Daggerfall -> Morrowind, they rewrote A LOT of stuff, however from Morrowind -> Oblivion -> Skyrim they have kept it consistent.

 

That or you are confusing their statement that setting a game in a new place lets them write a bunch of new lore each game while minimizing the lore from the last one.

 

 

 

furthermore

 

The Observer, The general, and The Rebels swap places in the mythic act, the Observer can become the General or the Rebel and vise-versa

 

Also both Tullius and Ulfric were rebels and generals, Ulfric was a general to the Stormcloaks, and a rebel against the empire, and Tullius was a general to the empire, and a rebel against the old Nord ways.

Edited April 27, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000