Fangirling in Sovngarde and Thoughts on the Elder Scroll Afterlife for

[RedRavyn]

@ sakuukkhar9000: Quoting passages from books you find in-game is not quoting "lore". There are a LOT of discrepancies in information handed out in such books. This is even to be expected. These books are not intended to reflect True History, but are only accounts written by people who could be wrong. The only "canon" is what happens within the games, themselves. Anything else is suspect, at best, unless specifically stated as canon by Bethesda.

 

You are abstracting. Talking about the "mythic act" is not talking about the Game. You may be one of the many "ES LoreMasters" that are scattered among the fans of the Elder Scrolls, but even your comments do not fully mesh with those of other people who are probably equally knowledgeable. If there's one Truth among the fans of ES Lore, it is that they don't even agree what Lore is, much less about many of the specifics of it.

 

So, let's not discuss what might be. We don't know what is going to happen in the next installment of the ES series. In fact, Bethesda, itself, may not really know where it's headed until they start writing it. Don't present as "fact" what is actually speculation (i.e. subjective opinions of what you've read) and hearsay (i.e., in-game sources which might, themselves, be recounting flawed accounts of what happened).

 

Also, congrats for totally derailing this topic, since none of this has monkey squat to do with the original intent of ToniPrufrock's post. You are entitled to your opinions, of course. Just don't present them to the rest of us as though they were facts carved in stone. You've made your points. We've made ours. Nobody, here, is going to change his mind because of your theoretical musings.

 

tldr? If it didn't happen in the Game it didn't happen.

[sajuukkhar9000]

tldr? If it didn't happen in the Game it didn't happen.

That is highly incorrect and that you could believe that is laughable. A large portion of the knowledge of the ES universe comes from interviews done with game developers,to ignore it would be folly.

 

Also I never presented anything as "fact", all I have done is state what is the currently known series of events that happens after someone dies, I never once made the claim that it was 100% correct, or that Bethesda couldn't change it later.

 

 

 

Furthermore if anyone derailed the topic it was you, I presented the currently known, accepted by the lore-masters of the official ES forums, series of events that happens after someone dies. It was your and SubjectProphet's constant assertions that "BETHESDA CHANGES THE LORE EVERY GAME SO NONE OF THE LORE IS THE SAME BETWEEN GAMES" that derailed the topic.

 

that you could even attempt to pin it on me it outright despicable and you should feel terrible.

Edited April 27, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[SubjectProphet]

Oh my god.....

 

 

You do NOT become Talos at the end of the game. There is no Dreamsleeve anymore, remember how Bethesda rewrites lore?

http://uesp.net/wiki/Skyrim:Mythic_Dawn_Commentaries

Greetings, novitiate, and know first a reassurance: Mankar Camoran was once like you, asleep, unwise, protonymic. We mortals leave the dreaming-sleeve of birth the same, unmantled save for the symbiosis with our mothers, thus to practice and thus to rapprochement, until finally we might through new eyes leave our hearths without need or fear that she remains behind. In this moment we destroy her forever and enter the demesne of Lord Dagon.

 

Bethesda released sometime after Morrowind that they change the lore after each game to match it in up to date. I've played since Arena, gotton every news update and read everything. I've played every ES game there is.

 

 

The Dragonborn hasn't asended yet, we don't even know if he'll be in TES 6. You can't say he's Talos because he MIGHT become him. Talos was Tiber Septim, who founded the Empire and was lifted into the heavens to become the ninth divine. Akatosh was the first god, and just because Martin Septim became him, does that mean Martin became Akatosh? No.

 

The Dragonborn never observed in my playthrough, I was a rebel and I killed Tullius. I was apart of the rebellian. How could you say I just watched when my character actually gave the final blow?

 

You might've played through differently, but in my playthrough, the Dragonborn would enter Sovngarde when he died, not become Talos or any other divine.

Ugh................. you totally took that out of context. Bethesda changes SOME of the lore for each game and then adds retconn explanations for why it was changed. Bethesda does not throw out all the lore after every game and start over.

 

I seriously dont understand how you could warp what Bethesda said that badly. Also I have played since Arena also, and read everything.

 

You are probably confusing their statement that from Arena -> Daggerfall -> Morrowind, they rewrote A LOT of stuff, however from Morrowind -> Oblivion -> Skyrim they have kept it consistent.

 

That or you are confusing their statement that setting a game in a new place lets them write a bunch of new lore each game while minimizing the lore from the last one.

 

 

 

furthermore

 

The Observer, The general, and The Rebels swap places in the mythic act, the Observer can become the General or the Rebel and vise-versa

 

Also both Tullius and Ulfric were rebels and generals, Ulfric was a general to the Stormcloaks, and a rebel against the empire, and Tullius was a general to the empire, and a rebel against the old Nord ways.

 

 

Who would observe when Ulfric led us and I gave the final blow while Galmar and Tulius both explained the future? Everyone had a role in the meeting.

 

And according to your last post, you want me to feel horrible. That's trolling to me. Reported.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Who would observe when Ulfric led us and I gave the final blow while Galmar and Tulius both explained the future? Everyone had a role in the meeting.

 

And according to your last post, you want me to feel horrible. That's trolling to me. Reported.

Well if you are the one giving the final blow then Ulfric would be observing. By your dragonblood the dragonborn is heir to the sundered seat of kings, the throne of cyrodil. furthermore by the end of either sides quest-line in the civil war you are the equivalent of general rank in the respective armies. So the "king/general killing a rebel" thing could world multiple ways.

 

The whole point of mantling is that by the end you cant tell who played what roll.

 

 

Also trolling is an attempt to make people angry for no reason other then lulz, if THAT is trolling to you then you dont understand what trolling means.

Edited April 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[RedRavyn]

@ sajuukkhar9000: I repeat, and it's very clear to anyone who is reading this thread: You're the one who got us off-topic with a theoretical statement regarding where player's characters might go when they die, when the OP wanted to know what the Players thought about their own characters. Your input was unrelated to the topic, even if it did lend a little extra information about what "could be".

 

It has nothing to do with lore or perceived examples of lore. It has nothing to do with what Bethesda employees say at conventions, since the developers have obviously not been totally in agreement with each other even during a single game, much less between games. All that mattered in the context of this thread was what each individual player thought about his specific character. His question was, and I quote, "Where do you think your character will end up when they die?"

 

My current one would be delighted to spend her Eternity hunting with Hircine, or perhaps going to the Shivering Isles, since she has a crush on Sheogorath. Dreamsleeve be damned ... it's all myth and legend, anyway, just as is all religion, and she frankly doesn't believe in it. Whether I do, or not, is irrelevant. I'm playing a specific character and I have to answer from the perspective of that character. The very concept of the Dreamsleeve is at odds with the religious beliefs of the Nords, who believe they'll go to Sovngarde, and we know from the game, itself, that Sovengard exists as a real place. My character has been there (in a previous playthrough). To her, in that playthrough, it's "real", and it even conflicts with her own long-held beliefs that are based upon Khajiit religious tenants, and not upon those forced upon people by Imperial rule.

 

I've been to the Shivering Isles, Boethiah's Realm, Peryite's Realm, Sovngarde, and a few other such places in playing ES games, but never have I encounted the Dreamsleeve. Like I said. If something's not in the game we can't accept it as "truth" unless there is an official declaration by Bethesda, the company, and not by individual employees in casual conversations or even interviews.

 

I consider this subject closed for any further input by me. We've both made our positions clear and neither of us is going to change them. I'm not here for a flame war, or to be lectured by someone who probably knows more about the lore than I do, but who clearly does not understand the existential implications of a game that is based upon truths which the developers probably have not published. I wish you well, but have no desire to fan any flames on this site or any other, so I suggest that we agree to disagree and get on with our lives.

 

Perhaps the best thing that could happen to this thread is for a Moderator to lock it, since I doubt it will ever get back to the original topic.

[sajuukkhar9000]

Actually if people had actually read my original post, and thus avoided this entire derailment they started, I made it abundantly clear that you can possibly NOT get Dream-sleeved if you are chosen by a Daedric prince or by Shor.

 

So no the deem-sleeve is not in contention with Sovengard.

 

Like I said in my original post

 

You can go to the realm of a Daedric Prince if chosen by them

You can go to Sovengard if chosen by Shor

You can get dreamsleeved if chosen by no one

You can mantel a god and not die

 

Given that Shor > Daedra > dreamsleeve

 

You will most likely be taken by Shor to Sovengard, unless Hircine gets involved they will then probably battle it out since the dovahkiins soul is very important. Shor will probably win, given that he wins everything.

 

when you are Sithis, Akatosh, and Lorkhan just wearing different masks to confuse people its hard to lose.

 

that is unless Bethesda pulls a Dragon-break to meld the two divergent endings togeather, at which point the dovahkiin becomes a god and doesnt die.

Edited April 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[robanybody2000]

Dude you should teach philosophy. According to your belives, at the end of the game you kill Sithis...The Night Mother must be realy pi**ed and will get medieval on you. ;)

 

In any case, afer the death of the Dragonborn i think the daedric lords will have to hold a sweepstake to see wich one gets your sorry a**. It will be fun to think that the death of Dragonborn (your character) will probably bring all the daedric leaders together. It will be like a family picnic, with Sheogorath providing entertainment, Sanguine comming with the booze and Clavicus bothering everybody like a teenage prick. Mehrunes Dagon could make the BBQ cause he got 4 arms. :))

[sajuukkhar9000]

Through the process of the trinity based mantling all 3 players become one.

 

The difference between The Dovahkiin, Ulfric, and Tullius becomes nonexistent on a spiritual level, you killed no one as you are still alive.

 

Just as Ysmir, Tiber, and Zurin became one.

Edited April 28, 2012 by sajuukkhar9000

[trukittn]

:psyduck:

 

All this crazy smoke-talk of becoming Talos aside...

 

Tsun said he'd look for Khajiit again when the time comes, and I figure she's followed Ulfric this far - might as well follow him to Sovngarde too. Easy decision for Khajiit. Even left some moon sugar and Elsweyr Fondue on their big fancy table to prepare a place for myself. I've avoided garnering favor from most of the Daedric sillyheads best I can to make sure my intentions are known. For example, I ate Boethiah's cult for midnight snack during a hungry werewolf binge a couple of full moons past and have been using that sacrificial dagger she tried to coerce me into using to kill somebody afterwards as a cheese knife. Wonder if I made his/her blacklist yet. And I figure I can throw one of them witch heads on the blue barbecue when I'm ready to get Hircine off my back.

 

After all, how often do you get a chance to glimpse your own possible afterlife? Considering what the unknown alternatives could be, I can't imagine many folk would actually be willing to give up a spot promised to them in Sovngarde after seeing it for themselves, Nord or no.

[eltucu]

I'm still puzzled about the whole Shor = Lorkhan thing since if lorkhan is dead, why is he commanding people in Sovengarde?

 

Anyway, it was an interesting place. I had hoped for more interesting talks with some of the heroes (like asking Ysgramor if he knows wtf is the Eye of Magnus, or asking Windcaller things about the first tongues), but oh well, it least i saw them, though i wanted that dragon armor from Ysgramor for myself! Sad that he didnt take it to the afterlife...