TES 6

[kthompsen]

They never even intended anyone to play this long. And this is the longest TES has gone without a sequel, I think? From what I can tell from Todd's words here and there, they're finally building a new engine..which is why it's longer than usual.

 

Anyhow, why are you talking about player retention, as if it was an MMO or FPS? The best they could hope for before release was along the lines of FO3's success.. which sold over 10 million (which was already more than other RPGs). That they tripled that was beyond anyone's expectations. And although Oblivion's modding community was big, they never expected Skyrim's to get as big as it is now. There's nothing like it in gaming history. Depending on modders wasn't part of some master plan. No one expected this.

 

Yet, like any other single player game, people leave eventually. Not sure why you think they need to retain them somehow. I'm glad they don't. That's partly EA's problem now. Never happy with just making single player games.

[tomomi1922]

Let's step back a bit here. There is no need to be emotional.

It is certainly not intended for Skyrim to retain players like an MMORPG. This is not what Bethesda wants. But what Bethesda wants are fame and credentials. So is everyone in business. Fame can easily turns into market share. So many games out there are trying to gain our attention and take a piece of our wallets. I literately spent all night last night (while waiting on CK to get done) just browsing Steam games, reading comments, etc... So many "Very Positive" games, with decent prices, but honestly, it just doesn't make sense I should buy them all. When in doubt, people often go with that is already established and well known. This is where Skyrim is #12 on best video game sale to date https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games Although I kind of question the integrity of the list. Same from Wiki, under best selling PC games (instead of all games), Skyrim is no where to be found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

So here is the thing, a lot of games were very well made, yet struggled with sales. Like that one game (will edit to input name here) failed to break even and the studio went bankrupt. A lot of people, including myself, just simply didn't give them a chance. But we went to big titles like Skyrim because, hey, if it's top seller, there is assurance it "can't be that bad" right? So it's not like Skyrim is the only good game in town (like back in the day we had nothing but Everquest to play). With a little of good marketing, of hard working efforts by the design team, and some luck, Skyrim became famous.

So why the hell is Bethesda neglecting their flag ship games? Just look at the amount of bugs Unofficial Skyrim Patch fixed, and a few they didn't fix (which I spent the whole week last week just fixing/improving)... It's like an actor got famous and starts thinking he is god-like, much bigger than everyone else, and treating his own fans like trash. While he should know he got where he is because people gave him a chance and became his fans. I felt the same horrible treatment from The Sims franchise. That game has the stability of a sand castle, under heavy rain. The vanilla game was not even playable without patches made by modders. Yet the company constantly blamed modders for their game problems, and did everything in their power to get players to only buy their company store's content with $$$, their very underwhelming content. I can play Sims 4 for free and I am not going to bother. I gotta admit, Bethesda is no where close to EA in term of horrible customer service. This is why I am still sticking around with Bethesda.

I want to add: games like Mass Effects, Assassin Creeds, Dragon Age, etc... they had to stand on their own with literately no help. Check the mods section for these games on Nexus, about 5% comparing to Skyrim, if that. Skyrim has a lot of help from modding community and ENB. Let's not deny that.

Edited June 26, 2018 by tomomi1922

[Deleted55545892User]

Let's step back a bit here. There is no need to be emotional.

 

It is certainly not intended for Skyrim to retain players like an MMORPG. This is not what Bethesda wants. But what Bethesda wants are fame and credentials. So is everyone in business. Fame can easily turns into market share. So many games out there are trying to gain our attention and take a piece of our wallets. I literately spent all night last night (while waiting on CK to get done) just browsing Steam games, reading comments, etc... So many "Very Positive" games, with decent prices, but honestly, it just doesn't make sense I should buy them all. When in doubt, people often go with that is already established and well known. This is where Skyrim is #12 on best video game sale to date https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_video_games Although I kind of question the integrity of the list. Same from Wiki, under best selling PC games (instead of all games), Skyrim is no where to be found https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_best-selling_PC_games

 

So here is the thing, a lot of games were very well made, yet struggled with sales. Like that one game (will edit to input name here) failed to break even and the studio went bankrupt. A lot of people, including myself, just simply didn't give them a chance. But we went to big titles like Skyrim because, hey, if it's top seller, there is assurance it "can't be that bad" right? So it's not like Skyrim is the only good game in town (like back in the day we had nothing but Everquest to play). With a little of good marketing, of hard working efforts by the design team, and some luck, Skyrim became famous.

 

So why the hell is Bethesda neglecting their flag ship games? Just look at the amount of bugs Unofficial Skyrim Patch fixed, and a few they didn't fix (which I spent the whole week last week just fixing/improving)... It's like an actor got famous and starts thinking he is god-like, much bigger than everyone else, and treating his own fans like trash. While he should know he got where he is because people gave him a chance and became his fans. I felt the same horrible treatment from The Sims franchise. That game has the stability of a sand castle, under heavy rain. The vanilla game was not even playable without patches made by modders. Yet the company constantly blamed modders for their game problems, and did everything in their power to get players to only buy their company store's content with $$$, their very underwhelming content. I can play Sims 4 for free and I am not going to bother. I gotta admit, Bethesda is no where close to EA in term of horrible customer service. This is why I am still sticking around with Bethesda.

 

I want to add: games like Mass Effects, Assassin Creeds, Dragon Age, etc... they had to stand on their own with literately no help. Check the mods section for these games on Nexus, about 5% comparing to Skyrim, if that. Skyrim has a lot of help from modding community and ENB. Let's not deny that.

 

Mass Effect and DA don't have many mods because it's difficult to mod with them. Have you tried? Especially when it comes to Mass Effect. There's no "CK" equivalent and it uses locked assets, based on a modified Unreal. ME3 is the worst of the bunch. And forget about doing anything elaborate with Frostbite. It sucks not just for RPGs, but has no FPS modding community either.

 

Dragon Age started off fairly moddable and quickly crumbled once in EA's hands as well. They had a minor modding kit for DAO, but it's not easy to work with either. Give Bethesda credit for their tools at least. This is why there's so much content as well... not just popularity. Bioware once cared about this and made Neverwinter Nights. And look at the difference: A lot of modules and vibrant community. In fact, one of the modders from that game went on to be the Lead Writer for Mass Effect, Mac Walters. lol. They once had tabletop RPG roots, where creation and community meant something.. and they made the "Bioware Social Network" (the old social.bioware.com) to fuel creation. Now there's nothing. Bioware sucks now. Or has sucked for awhile.

 

I'm a jaded fan of Bioware, if you can't tell. Not a straight up hater or anything. If anything, it looks like Beamdog is picking up the ball Bioware dropped (and I buy everything from them btw.. not just big games... I just hope to see something original from them and not just remasters).

 

edit: This is "kthompsen" btw. I changed the name because I was tired of being associated with real life identity (just for safety).

 

edit: OK, now I'm not sure if Walters was an NWN modder. Where did I hear that? Can't seem to find it anywhere now.

[tomomi1922]

Oh hello,

It is good to switch away from real life identity, although your name can be hard to trace, kthompsen, there could be millions of them. But regardless, it's best to protect your privacy.

I just knew about Beamdog. I am a Steam loyalist (because it's going to be so hard to maintain so many accounts). Good thing I don't have anything I want from Beamdog. I have NWN on Steam too. How is it still $16.99?

Regarding modding, I know those guys with DA, ME, and etc... really didn't want to support mods. Although I think DA:O I could get the nude body (without bodyslide or anything). But it looked a lot more proportional than vanilla. I think DA:O had a lot of mods (nothing came close to Skyrim). I remember downloaded some completely custom classes (like a paladin class). I was so worried about balance. In fact, those days I was dead serious about honing my Kungfu, trying to be the "best player", studied the skill trees, trying to solo the game, etc... Now I don't even bother with Skyrim. My entourage consists of 5 people. Not to enjoy "easy mode", but I like to hang out with different people: Recorder, Sofia, Inigo, Serana, either Yuriana or Toccata (both fail at being healers though). Yeah, Skyrim now is a social affair for me.

Those guys SHOULD have supported Mods. Honestly. Because I was quite bored with Dragon Age: Inquisition that I ran to Skyrim. THAT chapter 1 military base in the Inquisition, I couldn't just go everywhere, and it really pissed me off. But I am sure they have their reasons. It is quite valid to want the game experience controlled by the company, unlike Skyrim where you can even download a light saber, and a fallout 4's jumpsuit. Some see Skyrim as a huge success to let the modding community flourish, others see Skyrim as a huge mess no longer recognizable. I can share that sentiment when I saw a video of some gameplay so uncertain it was Skyrim until they opened SkyUI. The entire interface was changed: Health, mana, stamina bars, enemy HP, compass, oh and there is even a mini map. The player character was spotting some very custom elf face design and outfit (complete with HDT physics on the cloth parts). And she was running around in some Beyond Skyrim location. If I don't recognize SkyUI, I would bet anything it was an entirely different game, looks a bit like Final Fantasy. If I have my own game, I may not entertain that idea. Or perhaps, not wanting to see my beloved female characters running around naked flaunting big boobs and even bigger buttstocks. Oh yeah, I am part of a small game development team right now. I am not involved in the technical part though.

 

I vaguely recalled hearing about someone from NWN going to ME as writer, but can't find that info either, lol. Similarly, I found out today some modders from Arma went on to be the creator of one of the top selling games right now, Player Unknown's Battleground. Nice story. Although I don't think I will play that game. The mindless pvp action without cause or backstory don't interest me.

Edited June 29, 2018 by tomomi1922

[Deleted55545892User]

I like Inquisition's characters, but the story of Mage/Templars and Eluvians (and all the intrigue both entail) was building into some a whole lot more. DAI is more like the "Plan B" version of the story. It goes back to the short life of DA2. Inquisition was originally supposed to be an Expansion to Hawke's story.. That's why Cassandra was looking for Hawke. Also, ALL of the Morrigan and Flemeth stuff was supposed to involve Merrill and her obsession with Eluvians. Solas was supposed to be in DA2 as well. It also had a nice touch of tying it into the Warden's story, if they were Dalish.

 

Merrill suffered from this rewrite more than anyone. When they canceled DA2, Patrick Weekes had to rewrite the story and he recycled her Eluvian stuff into that Novel with Briala and Gaspard/Celine. It's so pathetic that poor Merrill was seeking after the Eluvian, only to be written out and have a City Elf and some stupid Orlesians enter the Eluvian before she ever did.

 

And I know it hurts Bioware writers more than me. I'm just a random fan. I know David Gaider was a bit heartbroken over the cancel and didn't want to talk about it. Eventually he left..... And guess what? He now works at Beamdog. Good on him.

 

Point is though, they couldn't really write either a War or a political story after this.. and just blew the whole thing up in the DAI intro screen. lol. Everyone dies at the Conclave and we just get a generic baddy for everyone to unite around. For all of DA2's faults, it had more meat than this. And DAO definitely did. The baddy in that game is a potential companion and it's completely up to you whether he's truly bad or not --- Loghain. He's pretty complex and awesome, as far as game villains go.

[tomomi1922]

I can't say I am as details oriented as you are, or perhaps I was just enamored with the series and treated everything as real history (of that universe) and never questioned it. Although, I tried SO HARD to keep Merrill from going astray. But I don't think there was a choice, she was meant to turn evil. I honestly forgot the details. But that's how I quit DA2. I love the Dalish. Maybe not wanting to be one of them, but I love their stories, background, and struggles. And Merrill seems to represent them. I forgot exactly what happened with Morrigan with DA:I but I was hoping there was more development with her. Although it was a relief for me to find out how Flemeth fit into the whole lore. Because honestly in DA:O, Flemeth felt like a very formidable being and yet she just sat out not wanting to do anything with (or against) all the development in the world. DA universe really sucked me in very hard. I personally hated how the world mistreated magic users worse than real world ISIS. But the characters ... I felt like I really knew them in person.

Tell me more about how you were disappointed with Andromeda? I loved it so much too. Only thing I really hate: they made followers completely useless. AND NO DLC!!! Come on, they threw us a cliff hanger at the end of the game, and ... that's it? I hated ME for the super rigid decision making process, so rigid that I literately played with a guide next to me, or I would be left out of content. I think Andromeda did away with that, thanks god. So I could play the game without having to read spoilers.

So they canceled DA2 and brought it back? I had no idea. Although I really wish the world was bigger in DA2. 95% of the game locked in a city, only 5% get to see a tiny bit outside the city? Claustrophobic! What is your disappointment with DA2? That was my main disappointment, being locked in.

In Skyrim, I am waiting for mods to stabilize, and I am going to download all the Beyond Skyrim mods. Can't wait to see new lands. But currently, I think BV is still glitchy. Just CTD when trying to save, maybe not BV fault. And I still have no idea how to play a vampire.

[Deleted55545892User]

Oops, I edited some of that a bit.. didn't think I'd get a quick reply. I haven't finished Andromeda. I gave up on Bioware really.

 

DA2 I liked, but my complaint is the same as you.. very small world and few assets. But they made do with what they had somewhat. Their strength was always characters and they managed to make the characters in that very interesting, where I'd forget about the city they lived in. Like Aveline truly felt like a city guard captain and loved her dialogue... even if her building and quarters wasn't much to look at it. Same with Isabela and Varric… they are some of the best rogue-ish characters Bioware ever wrote, even if I never saw all of the shenanigans they were up to.

 

An Oldrim killer mod was just released for SE, but it's mostly visual: Enhanced Landscapes. If you can use DynDOLOD, it's worth it. There's a learning curve to install it, but it's actually quite easy. You don't need to go to Bruma to spice things up!

[tomomi1922]

Enhanced Landscapes or not, it's still Skyrim. I still love the place. But it would be nice to see more of Tamriel, especially more than just the whole Nord's culture. LOD is LOD, would DynDOLOD make a huge difference in comparison to SSELODGen? Currently, my LOD is manageable. Not great, but enough to give me some immersion. Comparing to Vanilla, it's a huge step up. I love 3DTree mod. It gives detail leaves. I hide behind the bushes all the time so this means a lot to me. And the snow on the branches ... awesome.

You should finish Andromeda. It ironed out a lot of annoyances from old ME2 and ME3 about exploration. Although sandboxed, every planet feels like Skyrim, vast. With the exception of that floral planet, I hate that place: all the trees and shurbs don't affect NPCs. I always got shot with pinpoint accuracy by everyone while hidden in a bush. Another thing hated about Andromeda: the hitbox is wrong. Hiding behind a barrier, I would raise my rifle to shoot at people without looking, at least the animation shows that way. But the game treats it like I am poking my head out to aim and shoot. Anyway, Andromeda feels a lot like an open world game. They could offer more outfits though, I always struggle with what to wear. But yes ... now you know, a huge cliff hanger in the end, with no DLC and no promise of ME5. It looks like BioWare got sucked into online PVP world.

Damn it, can I go a day without the urge to fix Skyrim? Always something broken.

[Deleted55545892User]

Enhanced Landscapes or not, it's still Skyrim. I still love the place. But it would be nice to see more of Tamriel, especially more than just the whole Nord's culture. LOD is LOD, would DynDOLOD make a huge difference in comparison to SSELODGen? Currently, my LOD is manageable. Not great, but enough to give me some immersion. Comparing to Vanilla, it's a huge step up. I love 3DTree mod. It gives detail leaves. I hide behind the bushes all the time so this means a lot to me. And the snow on the branches ... awesome.

 

You should finish Andromeda. It ironed out a lot of annoyances from old ME2 and ME3 about exploration. Although sandboxed, every planet feels like Skyrim, vast. With the exception of that floral planet, I hate that place: all the trees and shurbs don't affect NPCs. I always got shot with pinpoint accuracy by everyone while hidden in a bush. Another thing hated about Andromeda: the hitbox is wrong. Hiding behind a barrier, I would raise my rifle to shoot at people without looking, at least the animation shows that way. But the game treats it like I am poking my head out to aim and shoot. Anyway, Andromeda feels a lot like an open world game. They could offer more outfits though, I always struggle with what to wear. But yes ... now you know, a huge cliff hanger in the end, with no DLC and no promise of ME5. It looks like BioWare got sucked into online PVP world.

 

Damn it, can I go a day without the urge to fix Skyrim? Always something broken.

 

DynDOLOD allows animated distances (windmills, waterfalls) as well as seeing city lights lit up and other glow objects. So yeah, it's better. Even the SSELODGen guy recommends it.

 

You couldn't pay me to finish Andromeda. :tongue: Seriously though, I have so much else to play. I don't think it'll happen anytime time.

 

Skyrim isn't about being vast though. It's emergence. I've noticed that you long for good direction and character heavy/social elements in your RPGs. This is great and loved this once about Bioware.. but this isn't TES' strength at all. It's the randomness and unpredictability and a sort of Zen-like experiential roleplaying, as you move along.

 

This is what I love about GTA as well. Although it has good story. There's just things about it that you can't predict. Like that moment you're doing a slow drive by, and the most out of place Willie Nelson song comes on the radio, and you go into a murder spree or get in a deadly car chase. Something about it just clicks and wasn't exactly programmed by the developers. Only the elements were.. but the way it comes about is what makes it your own experience. Same with TES games. There's so many actors and props to make it come alive at random.. often in funny ways. And I get why Todd Howard even said that the "bugs" were a feature. lol. Sometimes they are actually.

[Evangela]

They never even intended anyone to play this long. And this is the longest TES has gone without a sequel, I think? .

It will be. It took 6 years after Daggerfall for Morrowind to come out. When November 11th rolls around, it'll be 7 years after Skyrim's release.